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  #1  
Old 08-26-2002, 10:23 AM
Eve Eve is offline
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The Good Die Young, and Leni Riefenstahl Turns 100

Born Aug. 22, 1902, and still going strong. Happy birthday, you unfortunately talented Nazi bitch.
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Old 08-26-2002, 12:52 PM
Zappo Zappo is offline
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Well, shit. Must be the triumph of the will.

Ha! I said it first!
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Old 08-26-2002, 12:57 PM
tiny ham tiny ham is offline
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Perhaps you could mention the other dozens and dozens of things she did besides the two films for Hitler?

Can no one ever be redeemed for a wrong doing?

J
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Old 08-26-2002, 01:12 PM
Eve Eve is offline
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Can no one ever be redeemed for a wrong doing?

Not that wrong-doing, not when she's been so unpentent and smug about it for 60-some years. There was a big Times story on her last week—she is still denying things she did and said in the 1930s and '40s, and still insists that her films were "art," not "propaganda." Frankly, if she 'fessed up and said, "I was an opportunist and I'm sorry," I'd not have as much problem with her.
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Old 08-26-2002, 01:15 PM
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Oh, she did other Nazi propaganda films as well, in addition to her two best-known. In one, Gypsies from a concentration camp were forced to dance happily in front of her camera, after which they were sent to their death. The director, of course, "knew nothing about this."
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Old 08-26-2002, 01:22 PM
tiny ham tiny ham is offline
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Leni worked under Hitler's direction for six days total, and while she was aware of his political leanings, she says she had no idea of genocidal ways.

She directed 12 films, she was also a silent film star and dancer in the twenties and thirties before her involvement with Hitler.

She also went on a self imposed exile AFTER the war, distancing herself from the whole thing and becoming a photographer in the Sudan.

She DOES realize that what Hitler did was wrong, but maintains that her films were beautifully shot..>WHICH THEY WERE. Olympia has some of the most beautiful photography I've ever seen of the human form.

I understand that she created propaganda for the NAZI party...but bakers also baked bread for Hitler, women cleaned houses for Hitler are they all worthy of being called "NAZI BITCH" sixty years later?

I just think it's a little harsh.
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Old 08-26-2002, 02:15 PM
Eve Eve is offline
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Well, we'll agree to disagree. I wouldn't cross the street to spit on the bitch if she were on fire.
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Old 08-26-2002, 02:23 PM
Ukulele Ike Ukulele Ike is online now
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eve
still insists that her films were "art," not "propaganda."
Well, they're pretty darned artistic propaganda...
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Old 08-26-2002, 02:43 PM
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Even most Germans hate Leni for her history of conflicting stories and lies about her past.
That said, despite her being a consumate liar, there is no denying her talent.

So, do you want to destroy the work because it is propaganda?
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Old 08-26-2002, 02:50 PM
Eve Eve is offline
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"So, do you want to destroy the work because it is propaganda?"

—And where did I say that?
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Old 08-26-2002, 03:02 PM
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Fine Eve. We will agree to disagree. I had significant reason a year or two ago to do extensive research on Leni. I found that while she did wrong during the Hitler regime, she also expressed regret at what had happened, while still defending her work. Call me naive, but I found no reason to think she was lying when she said she was unaware of the massive scale of the atrocities in the camps. I think there were a lot of people in NAZI Germany who didn't know exactly what was going on for a LONG TIME.

I don't think she's an angel, or a hero of the world, but I do think she was talented and before and after the war made significant contributions to the arts. She was certainly more than a "NAZI bitch".

:: shrug::

We'll disagree, no skin off my nose. It's not like we're dating.
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Old 08-26-2002, 03:12 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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Originally posted by jarbabyj
Leni worked under Hitler's direction for six days total, and while she was aware of his political leanings, she says she had no idea of genocidal ways.
Baloney. Saying she was just "aware of his political leanings" is like saying James Carville is just aware that Bill Clinton is not a Republican. Hitler was the Fuhrer, for God's sake. It would be quite reasonable to say that Riefenstahl really didn't CARE what the Nazis were about; she was an obsessive artist, entirely concerned with the artistic aspect of what she was doing, irrespective of the politics involved, and the attractive to doing nazi work was basically that they were funding it, always an attraction for the filmmaker. But she sure as hell knew what they were.

"I knew nothing" is the standard Nazi excuse, right before they trot out the "I was just following orders" one. The ugly truth is that just about everyone in Germany knew quite well what was going on, and they went right along with it.

Quote:
She DOES realize that what Hitler did was wrong, but maintains that her films were beautifully shot..>WHICH THEY WERE. Olympia has some of the most beautiful photography I've ever seen of the human form.
I don't think anyone seriously doubt Riefenstahl was a brilliant filmmaker. "Triumph of the Will" is shown in almost every first year film class as an example of filmmaking genius.

But so what? Nobody's claiming she was a crappy filmmaker.

Quote:
I understand that she created propaganda for the NAZI party...but bakers also baked bread for Hitler, women cleaned houses for Hitler are they all worthy of being called "NAZI BITCH" sixty years later?
Well, frankly, a rather massive difference is that Hitler's sandwiches and clean toilets weren't used to promote and recruit disciples to the causes of murder and evil. "Triumph of the Will" was designed and meant to promote the destruction of decency, peace, and progressive civilization. Hitler's last cucumber sandwich was not.

I don't think she should be hanged, but a little humility and honestly is in order. I suspect much of her denial is based in sheer embarassment, but the fact is that she was a willing mouthpiece for one of the most evil regimes in human history, and some people are understandably a little bitter about that.
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Old 08-26-2002, 03:21 PM
Eve Eve is offline
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It's not like we're dating.

. . . Ummm, does this mean we're off for Saturday night?

[Eve sadly puts away her dancing shoes]
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Old 08-26-2002, 03:24 PM
tiny ham tiny ham is offline
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What I was saying by listing the baker and the housekeeper of Hitler is that a lot of people worked blindly with and alongside NAZI party leaders and members without knowing the extent of their hatred for A VERY LONG TIME.

Like I said, I don't think she's the greatest person to ever live, but I do think that as a young, artistic, eager filmmaker, she probably was excited to do films for the most important person in Germany. It may seem small, when we look back on it...but WE DO ALL MAKE MISTAKES.

I dunno. I just think that Eve's two sentence summation sort of skims over a hundred years of bad AND good. She's a complex human being of many shades of gray.

J
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Old 08-26-2002, 03:28 PM
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I dunno Eve.

We're having our first official spat.

I'll be in the corner with my arms crossed, pouting.
  #16  
Old 08-26-2002, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jarbabyj
Perhaps you could mention the other dozens and dozens of things she did besides the two films for Hitler?
Four films.

Victory of Faith-the short film about the 1933 Nuremberg Rally
Triumph of the Will-film about the 1934 Nuremberg Rally
Day of Freedom-Our Wehrmacht-short film about the 1935 Nuremberg Rally
Olympia-Film about the Berlin Olympics.

She also went on a US tour promoting Olympia and fascism, and in her show "Lowlands", used concentration camp prisoners as extras.

She was no Fritz Hippler, but she wasn't any great prize during the war years either.
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Old 08-26-2002, 06:03 PM
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She's about on par with Jane Fonda -- albeit talented. I've seen neither film, but they were considered quite well done. Seems that both Albert Speer (who was the architect behind the famous klieg light 'cathedral of ice' at the nurnburg rallies) and Leni got off relatively easy.
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Old 08-26-2002, 06:41 PM
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I recently saw the documentary Blind Spot, a feature-length interview with one of Hitler's main secretaries. She was with him for years, taking dictation, doing filing, working on transcription, and other secretarial duties. The film -- which is nothing more than a talking head for 90 minutes -- makes it clear that many people worked alongside Hitler and had no idea what he was about. I certainly recommend the film.

Obviously, Riefenstahl, being more highly placed, had more access to more information, and her protestations of ignorance are harder to swallow. But don't forget, Hitler and his cronies managed to hoodwink millions of people into doing their bidding. Why should Riefenstahl be the target of more venom than the others?

Because -- I think -- she's an artist. She's a staggeringly talented filmmaker and photographer, as her underwater and African work demonstrate. She's quite possibly the best (as in most influential) female filmmaker in history. Her work has served as inspiration for everything from sports journalism to Star Wars. (The medal ceremony at the end is ripped straight out of Triumph of the Will.) She had all of this potential, and due to the vagaries of fate, it was channeled into supporting an impossibly hateful and destructive regime.

And yet, her talent cannot be denied.

It seems to me that at least some of the anger directed at Riefenstahl is more of a nebulous rage, an unfocused disgust at the unfairness of a universe that would create such an important and influential artist, and yet contrive that her most significant work would be festooned with swastikas. It seems to violate our innate sense of rightness that this should be so. Nobody much cares about Malevich or the other artists who were forced to become social realists and/or constructivists under Stalin, partly because (1) maybe none of them was a genius like Riefenstahl, or (2) the restrictive form quashed any real breakthroughs, or (3) a combination of the two.

But Riefenstahl wasn't quashed; she bloomed. She created works of astonishing power and beauty. And she did it for Hitler.

Life isn't fair. It's just long and occasionally infuriating.
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Old 08-26-2002, 06:47 PM
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Another vote here for "Nazi Bitch". The Las Vegas Review Journal ran a great picture a couple of days ago. It seems that Siegfried and Roy went back home recently to wish her a happy birthday. The RJ ran a picture of them standing with their arms around her with big smiles on their faces. I've got it posted on my computer room wall now. Camp like this cannot be passed up.
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Old 08-26-2002, 07:01 PM
CyberPundit CyberPundit is offline
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"Nobody much cares about Malevich or the other artists who were forced to become social realists and/or constructivists under Stalin, partly because (1) maybe none of them was a genius like Riefenstahl,..."
But how about Sergei Eisentein who is of even greater stature than Riefenstahl but who doesn't seem to attract the same kind of venom for working for Stalin? I don't know the details of the two filmmakers' lives or films but I suspect part of it is driven by double-standards about the Communists versus the Nazis. I suspect that if Riefenstahl had been working for Stalin rather than Hitler no one would be bothering her either.
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Old 08-26-2002, 08:29 PM
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CyberPundit raises a good point. Eisenstein shared with Riefenstahl not only artistic brilliance but a blinkered and contemptible opportunism. He toadied up to Stalin to get plum directing assignments while his friends and colleagues fell victim to the purges.

However, I disagree that politics is the reason they're not equally disliked. I'm sure that most are aware that Stalin's regime was just as evil, if not more so, than Hitler's. Instead, I think one of the main reasons is much more mundane: while Eisenstein has been dead since the late 40's, Riefenstahl has been pissing people off with her lies and equivocations for decades now.
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Old 08-26-2002, 09:02 PM
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Re: It's not like we're dating.

Quote:
Originally posted by Eve
. . . Ummm, does this mean we're off for Saturday night?
Woo-hoo! It's TORGO'S TURN!
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Old 08-26-2002, 09:12 PM
Genseric Genseric is offline
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How does Godwin's Law work in a debate like this?
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Old 08-26-2002, 09:44 PM
Fenris Fenris is offline
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Originally posted by jarbabyj
Can no one ever be redeemed for a wrong doing?
Nope.

Not that.

That f***ing c*nt made it easier for Germans to look the other way and feel good about themselves when several of my grandparents and great-grandparents were tossed into the f*cking ovens.

Yes, she made some pretty pictures that are utterly worthless given the evil they enabled.

I hope the b*tch gets some horrible disease, dies slowly and in writhing agony alone and unloved, then rots in hell for the rest of eternity with the rest of her Nazi buddies.

(Hint to future artists: If you're gonna do propaganda and be a collaborationist whore*, you better f*cking find out who/what you're doing propaganda/whoring for.

I don't buy the "Oh jeepers! I had no idea Hitler was naughty" bullsh*t, but even if I did, it doesn't excuse the evil she helped perpetuate)

Fenris
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Old 08-26-2002, 10:02 PM
SolGrundy SolGrundy is offline
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Originally posted by Genseric
How does Godwin's Law work in a debate like this?
Well, CyberPundit compared Hitler to Stalin; does that count? I think he's first runner-up.

And my completely ignorant opinion (never saw the movies, have only read cursory biographies of Riefenstahl) just for the sake of being slightly on-topic: it doesn't matter one bit how well-made the films are, if they're perpetuating evil. In a sense, describing the films as beautiful works of art that just happen to be promoting a genocidal regime is as much an act of complicity as making the films themselves.

At the same time, though, it's probably a good thing that they were so well-made and that they are shown in film classes. (And, maybe, that the artist herself is still alive and still the center of controversy). Perpetuating the film keeps the history "alive" and gives everyone a sense of the magnitude of the Third Reich and ordinary people's involvement in it. To go back to CyberPundit's example, Stalin is just a vaguely evil figure on the outskirts of my United States public high school history education. But I'm very much aware of the Nazis and the Holocaust.
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Old 08-26-2002, 10:21 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Perhaps you could mention the other dozens and dozens of things she did besides the two films for Hitler?

Can no one ever be redeemed for a wrong doing?
Let's see. Making propaganda films to support and promote a regime that destroyed a continent, launched the worst war in human history, carrying out acts of unspeakable genocide, and caused the deaths of tens of millions. I'm thinking it's going to take more than a few documentaries and musical comedies to get that one off your karma.

Leni's had over fifty years since Hitler died. Maybe she should have used the time she's spent making excuses on making amends.

Quote:
She also went on a self imposed exile AFTER the war, distancing herself from the whole thing and becoming a photographer in the Sudan.
She decided to stop being a Nazi after 1945? Now there's a courageous choice. Personally, I rather extend my admiration towards Otto Skorzeny, who spend his post war years helping his fellow SS officers go into hiding and supporting various fascist regimes in South America and the Middle East. Say what you will about old Otto, he may have been murderous scum but he was no fair weather friend.
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Old 08-26-2002, 10:32 PM
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Originally posted by Little Nemo
Personally, I rather extend my admiration towards Otto Skorzeny, who spend his post war years helping his fellow SS officers go into hiding and supporting various fascist regimes in South America and the Middle East. Say what you will about old Otto, he may have been murderous scum but he was no fair weather friend.
Plus he nailed Eva Peron! Woo-hoo!
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Old 08-26-2002, 11:07 PM
Genseric Genseric is offline
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An analogy.

Think of a beautifully envisioned, exquisitely executed, technically brilliant painting of a 35-year-old man raping a 9-year-old girl, painted from the artists imagination. Could you appreciate the painter's artistic ability in light of the chosen subject matter?

Well?
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Old 08-26-2002, 11:23 PM
Genseric Genseric is offline
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Oops, that post may be a little too intense for this forum, I thought I was in Great Debates for a minute.
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Old 08-27-2002, 12:19 AM
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Say what you will about Leni--and she was most certainly a Nazi, and an unrepentant one at that, but Triumph of the Will is a work of genius. The way the camera frames the Fuhrer's plane descending from the heavens, the happy, smiling German youth, the creepy, yet awe-inspiring Nazi rally--it makes the viewer want to run out and join the Party.

I think we're being less than honest if we don't give evil its due. Take Hitler--the man was a monster, an architect of genocide, there's no denying he was thoroughly and completely evil. Does that mean we must not acknowledge his oratorical skills? He was one hell of a speechmaker--if he had been less skillful, the world might never have been afflicted by him.
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Old 08-27-2002, 12:46 AM
Ike Witt Ike Witt is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by jarbabyj
Perhaps you could mention the other dozens and dozens of things she did besides the two films for Hitler?
J
In the thread Leni Riefenstahl--duped genius or Nazi bitch? I asked about her other movies and never got an answer. Maybe you can answer it for me. What other movies has she made? And which of them don't deal with her Nazi days?

BTW, I don't think that Hitler gave anybody the access that Leni had, unless he was sure of their loyalty. Remember, alot of people who he didn't trust ended up dead.
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Old 08-27-2002, 12:47 AM
Captain Amazing Captain Amazing is offline
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Well, but Gobear, that's part of what makes it so horrible. Riefenstahl is a talented filmmaker, and Triumph of the Will is a work of genius. It's just a shame that she chose to use that genius for evil, the same way it's a shame that Hitler chose to use his organizational and oratorical skills for evil. But they did, though. They had moral choices to make and they made them, and they used their talents that could have brought so much good into the world, instead to bring misery.
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Old 08-27-2002, 12:57 AM
CyberPundit CyberPundit is offline
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"I think one of the main reasons is much more mundane: while Eisenstein has been dead since the late 40's"
Obviously that's part of the story but even as a historical figure Einsenstein seems to be remembered for the most part positively as a pioneering director so even if he was alive I doubt he would attract the kind of personal venom which Riefenstahl seems to. Or to put it another way I doubt Riefenstahl's reputation would be as benign as Eisenstein's if she had died in the 40's.
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Old 08-27-2002, 01:06 AM
CyberPundit CyberPundit is offline
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BTW all arguments about Rifenstahl aside isn't it remarkable that an important figure of the 30's is still alive and going strong. I wonder if there is anyone else of comparable importance from that era ,in any field, who is still alive.
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Old 08-27-2002, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
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BTW all arguments about Rifenstahl aside isn't it remarkable that an important figure of the 30's is still alive and going strong. I wonder if there is anyone else of comparable importance from that era ,in any field, who is still alive.
Katharine Hepburn's still alive, but 7 years younger, as great an artistic figure (often rated the greatest film actress of all time), and a much better role model. She's about the only other person I can think of though.
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Old 08-27-2002, 09:15 AM
pldennison pldennison is offline
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Originally posted by Cervaise
But don't forget, Hitler and his cronies managed to hoodwink millions of people into doing their bidding. Why should Riefenstahl be the target of more venom than the others?
"Hoodwink?" Come on. It may be possible that the secretary in the aforementioned documentary didn't know the extent of Hitler's hatred for the Jews or of the apparatus in place for eliminating them, but it isn't as if the German populace was unaware of Hitler's history, goals and intentions. The Germans were all too willing, if anything, to support Hitler's goals of Liebensraum and the elimination of the Juden from Greater Germany.

"Liebchen, I wonder what happened to every single Jew that used to live and work here in the neighborhood?"

"Well, I know Herr Hitler wrote that entire book about his struggle and the problem of the Jews in Europe, and got elected Chancellor, and there was that whole Kristallnacht thing, and those trains headed towards Poland and Czechoslovakia . . . but it's a mystery to me! More wurst?"
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Old 08-27-2002, 09:52 AM
Snooooopy Snooooopy is offline
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Originally posted by RickJay

Well, frankly, a rather massive difference is that Hitler's sandwiches and clean toilets weren't used to promote and recruit disciples to the causes of murder and evil.
I would like a Hitler sandwich, fries and a Coke, please.

And Super-size that!
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Old 08-27-2002, 10:28 AM
tiny ham tiny ham is offline
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First of all, Little Nemo, she went on a self imposed exile from making films, which she'd been doing since the twenties. She's all but a hermit now.

Secondly, as an actress and director, she made 12 films:

Tiefland ("Lowlands") - 1954 (actress, director)
Olympia - 1938 (director)
Triumph des Willens ("Triumph of the Will") - 1934 (director)
Sieg des Glaubens - 1933 (director)
S.O.S. Eisberg ("S.O.S. Iceberg") - 1933 (actress)
Das Blaue Licht ("The Blue Light") - 1932 (actress, director)
Der Weiße Rausch - Neue Wunder des Schneeschuhs ("The White Intoxication") - 1931 (actress)
Stürme über dem Mont Blanc ("Storm Over Mont Blanc") - 1930 (actress)
Die Weiße Hölle vom Piz Palü ("The White Hell of Pitz Palu") - 1929 (actress)
Der Große Sprung ("The Big Jump") - 1927 (actress)
Wege zu Kraft und Schönheit - 1926 (actress)
Der Heilige Berg ("The Holy Mountain") - 1926 (actress)
Tragödie im Hause Habsburg ("Tragedy in the House of Hapsburg") - 1924 (actress)

In the seventies, she became a deep sea diver, and an underwater photographer, this was in addition to her work as a documentary photographer in the Sudan.

She was a war prisoner for seven years following world war II, and also was blacklisted from Hollywood.

She claims that she had no direct involvement with Hitler but for six days conference in making Triumph of the Will. She says she DID NOT know the EXTENT of his crimes or genocidal activities, which I maintain was true of many German people, at all different levels of citizen ship.

And for the third time, I'd like to say I don't necessarily ADMIRE Leni, except that she managed to cram a crapload of living into 100 years...but I think that when she dies, which I think will probably be soon...it would be unfortunate if her obituary said nothing but "NAZI BITCH".
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Old 08-27-2002, 12:55 PM
wikkidpis wikkidpis is offline
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How about: "LENI REIFENSTAHL, FILMAKER, NAZI BITCH, DIES"?

She didn't know the "extent" of Nazi crimes? Well, I'm sure she didn't know all the stats of those murdered and enslaved. Common sense tells us she knew plenty, though. Millions upon millions were rounded up and sent away and were never heard from again, or were forced into ghettos, or had their property stolen, or were just lined up and shot in the street. Hard not to notice what was going on. But its not so much that she knew what was going on, its that she was all for it, supported it, did her part to help.

Can't say I've done any research on her but from what I understand she never really reputiated what she did.

Oh, but she later became a deep sea diver and took pictures whiles globtrotting. Wup de friggin do.
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Old 08-27-2002, 12:55 PM
wikkidpis wikkidpis is offline
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How about: "LENI REIFENSTAHL, FILMAKER, NAZI BITCH, DIES"?

She didn't know the "extent" of Nazi crimes? Well, I'm sure she didn't know all the stats of those murdered and enslaved. Common sense tells us she knew plenty, though. Millions upon millions were rounded up and sent away and were never heard from again, or were forced into ghettos, or had their property stolen, or were just lined up and shot in the street. Hard not to notice what was going on. But its not so much that she knew what was going on, its that she was all for it, supported it, did her part to help.

Can't say I've done any research on her but from what I understand she never really reputiated what she did.

Oh, but she later became a deep sea diver and took pictures whiles globtrotting. Wup de friggin do.
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Old 08-27-2002, 01:02 PM
Fenris Fenris is offline
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Cutting and reordering for better response.

Quote:
And for the third time, I'd like to say I don't necessarily ADMIRE Leni, except that she managed to cram a crapload of living into 100 years...but I think that when she dies, which I think will probably be soon...it would be unfortunate if her obituary said nothing but "NAZI BITCH".
It would, however, be accurate. The Nazi Bitch was an enabler for genocide. How nice that she's crammed a lot of living in her 100 years. Too bad the victims of her evil didn't.


Quote:

In the seventies, she became a deep sea diver, and an underwater photographer, this was in addition to her work as a documentary photographer in the Sudan.

She was a war prisoner for seven years following world war II, and also was blacklisted from Hollywood.
Let's put this in perspective: She was jet-setting across the world and deep sea diving in the '70s, when my great-grandparents and some of my grandparents were ashes in part because of her evil.

Quote:
She claims that she had no direct involvement with Hitler but for six days conference in making Triumph of the Will. She says she DID NOT know the EXTENT of his crimes or genocidal activities, which I maintain was true of many German people, at all different levels of citizen ship.


"I didn't know vot dey vere doink! I vas innocent! I vas only folloink orders!" Feh. You can repeat her lies as much as you like, but anyone who heard Hitler's speeches, lived through Krystalnacht, etc knew what Hitler was up to. The "extent" argument is one regularly brought up by Nazi apologists (I do NOT consider you one, Jarbaby): "Golly! Most Germans didn't know the extent of what Hitler was doing." Bullsh*t. They knew he wanted to "cleanse" the land of Jews and undesirables. They heard his speeches. The "extent" argument comes down to saying "They knew that Jews and undesirables were being killed, but not being tortured an' stuff." I fail to see the practical difference.

How is this Nazi Bitch different from Mengele: Apparently some of his results actually contain valuable data. Should he be not be considered a Nazi Monster because he came up with something useful?

And what weasel-wording on her part "No direct involvement with Hitler". So she didn't actually hang out with him, but she had no problem glorifying him.

I am stunned that you can see any sort of beauty in that monster's snuff-films. Technical competence? Maybe. But beauty? What beauty? The beauty of the merry dancing Gypsies who were forced to perform at gunpoint and were then murdered after they finished helping her "art"? Her glorification of one of the most evil regimes in history? Her joy in the whole Uberman concept?

She is repugnant and I sincerely hope her tombstone is engraved with "Nazi Collaborationist Bitch"

Fenris

(I agree with what Eve said about how if she'd 'fessed up and devoted the rest of her life to making up for her evil, I wouldn't be so enraged by her. But tales of her long, mostly happy unrepentant life disgusts me.
  #42  
Old 08-27-2002, 05:48 PM
hajario hajario is online now
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Quote:
Originally posted by jarbabyj
What I was saying by listing the baker and the housekeeper of Hitler is that a lot of people worked blindly with and alongside NAZI party leaders and members without knowing the extent of their hatred for A VERY LONG TIME.
That is a complete bunch of crap. Anyone who was alive at the time and in area of Nazi contol who tries to tell you that was either a young child, mentally retarded or a fucking liar.

In my grandmother's home town all of the Jews were taken from their homes at gun point and herded into the town square where they were kept for three days until the trains finally arrived. They were then all put onto the trains and taken to the Camps. In the meantime, people moved into their homes and took over their shops and started using their possessions as if they owned them. The guy who lived next to the Jewish cemetary got rid of all of the head stones and turned it into a potato field. My Mom went to see the place about ten years ago and the field is still there. There's a wall made out of the head stones. The synagogue is still there too. There are still colorful paintings on the walls that were used to help the little kids learn Hebrew. In the attic, you can still find decaying prayer books. The building is currently being used as a sausage factory. Oh yeah, none of them had a clue what was going on either.

The good thing is that she knows that no matter how hard she tries to whitewash her sordid history, she will always be remembered for the opportunistic monster that she was in her youth and how she didn't do a thing to atone for the many, many decades that she had left.

Haj
  #43  
Old 08-27-2002, 06:03 PM
Mockingbird Mockingbird is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by jarbabyj

And for the third time, I'd like to say I don't necessarily ADMIRE Leni, except that she managed to cram a crapload of living into 100 years...but I think that when she dies, which I think will probably be soon...it would be unfortunate if her obituary said nothing but "NAZI BITCH".
Yes, the collaborationist whore crammed a great deal of living in her lifetime, no matter who she had to work with or that her work supported a regime that was genocidal and nililistic.

Yay for her.

If her obituary only says Nazi Bitch, it will be far too kind.
  #44  
Old 08-27-2002, 06:34 PM
Horatio Hellpop Horatio Hellpop is offline
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Let's get a little perspective here. Frank Capra made movies glamorizing the US; are we going to sock him with sidestream blame for atrocities committed against Indians, Blacks, Pacific islanders, Filipinos, etc.? If not, why?
  #45  
Old 08-27-2002, 06:39 PM
hajario hajario is online now
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Quote:
Originally posted by Krokodil
Let's get a little perspective here. Frank Capra made movies glamorizing the US; are we going to sock him with sidestream blame for atrocities committed against Indians, Blacks, Pacific islanders, Filipinos, etc.? If not, why?
Capra wasn't employed by the U.S. Gov't to make propoganda films.

Haj
  #46  
Old 08-27-2002, 07:47 PM
gobear gobear is offline
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Quote:
Capra wasn't employed by the U.S. Gov't to make propoganda films.
Yes, he was. During WWII, the Feds commissioned him to produce a series of propaganda films called Why We Fight..
  #47  
Old 08-27-2002, 07:55 PM
Purd Werfect Purd Werfect is offline
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I noticed that there's a DVD of TOTW on Amazon, and some of the proceeds apparently go the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. I've never seen the film, but I'm interested in it from an historical perspective. I'm conflicted about buying it though.
  #48  
Old 08-27-2002, 11:27 PM
Cartooniverse Cartooniverse is offline
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Oh no way.

As someone who made a living for 20 years as a Cameraman and Photographer, as a 1st generation German Jew here, as a photographer with a conscience, I stand 100% behind Eve in this regard.

Nobody who has access to the Internet on this planet ( and, that means every single Doper) has any place approving of a dangerous whore who created a beautiful artful dangerous smokescreens that were solely created to convince people that what was going on was something powerfully noble and serving the greater needs of the world. I watched all of "Triumph of the Will with a sickening horror. Before me was the intellectual capacity to make monstrocity palatable, nay- appealing.

I would rather have my eyes gored out than ever for a moment believe that I'd created even a single still photograph that was as dangerous to the basic humanity on the planet as the works she created. She took a stunning intellect, a phenomenal eye and sense of light and compositon and used it to further one of the most destructive pursuits in modern history. ( Notice, I said, ONE OF the most- I'm a jew who isn't blind to the atrocities committed against a lot of the rest of humanity in the last few centuries, the Holocaust is not the end all and be all of atrocity.)

I believe with all of my heart that if you are blessed with a gift that allows others to think, be moved, see, hear by virtue of your gift, that the worst most whorish thing you can do is use that gift for the destruction of even a single soul.

She is one of the worst examples of a human being in my memory- far worse than a soldier who was "following orders". And I am here to tell you all, as someone who has stood on the flagstone terrace outside the Oval Office, when you are near a Head of State, and his "people"., you see and hear things that nobody else sees and hears.

She knew everything. She knew things we can not imagine.

The lying whore.

Cartooniverse
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If you want to kiss the sky you'd better learn how to kneel.
  #49  
Old 08-28-2002, 11:04 AM
hajario hajario is online now
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I would ask anyone who harbors the notion that the ordinary people of Germany didn't know what was going on "for a long time" to read this book. Please.

Haj
  #50  
Old 08-28-2002, 11:16 AM
tiny ham tiny ham is offline
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I have not seen TOTW, I have seen Olympia, and it is gorgeous. Actors re-enacting ancient Grecian games, seeing the human form in it's naked athletic glory, swimmers, runners, divers, was beautiful. That is the only film I can speak for.

And thank you for clarifying Fenris, that you do not think I'm a NAZI apologist. I am NOT, and I want that to be CRYSTAL FUCKING CLEAR. Anyone who has followed me on this board knows I hate it when people even make NAZI jokes because it belittles what happened so many years ago.

I just think that history demands that Leni's entire life be studied and not just two or three years of it. It's not a big enough issue for me to fight over, it's just that I wanted perhaps the younger and uneducated members of the board to know all the things that Leni did, rather than just two films.
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