Amon Goethe in Schindler's List

Inspired by a pit thread spiralling frighteningly out of control, I decided to present this discussion here, in a less anger causing arena (and please keep in mind we’re talking here about ONE fictional NAZI in ONE movie and not the whole political party).

I mentioned in said pit thread that: “I am so naive I thought that Amon Goethe was going to turn into a good NAZI after hearing the ‘I pardon him’ speech from Schindler”. (I know, I know, I’m an idiot…I want all stories to have happy endings)

Surprisingly, (honestly, I was floored) gobear indicated that the purpose of Goethe ‘pardoning’ the young jewish boy who cleaned his house was him practicing his ‘godlike abilities’, seeing as how soon he returned to his murderous ways.

Now, as I think back over this movie (which I’ve seen twice and don’t think I have to see again), I felt there were several scenes where Spielberg tried to show Amon trying to get back in touch with his humanity (and ultimately failing). #1 in my mind (and quite possibly one of my top ten most well acted and directed scenes in film history) is the scene in the basement with Helen Hilsch. He’s apart by seeing her as a ‘human being’ and not a ‘rat’ and just when he’s about to touch her in a human, physical way, he snaps and goes crazy.

He is also willing to listen to Schindler’s thoughts on what true power is (showing mercy), and tries it out for a day or so, going so far as to engage the Jewish boy in a conversation about the best cleaning agents for the bathroom.

Was Spielberg trying to show (I think yes) that even some of the highest NAZI commanders were not completely brainwashed in their following of orders?

I felt that Goethe made this movie more tragic and more human, by showing that Every Character was ruined or tortured somehow.

Am I just…as I said in the beginning, incredibly naive?

I think in the first example, he’s clearly acting out of lust. He had to somehow rationalize his sexual attraction to HH, so he allowed himself to make some “concessions” about how she was an exception to her people–though that didn’t last long.

The most terrifying line in that movie, to me, was Goeth’s comment to Helen “I know you’re not human, in the strictest sense, but…” because it shows how brainwashed he is AND shows how even though on some level he knows it’s scheiße he allows his ideology to overrule his reason. I think Schindler is right when he tells Stern “if you’d known him before the war you’d probably have liked him”, though that doesn’t exonerate him of anything.

Well, and the maybe frightening part was that that movie showed a sanitized Amon Goeth. The actual Goeth was worse.

I really couldn’t understand the Goeth character at first. How could somebody be that downright EVIL, to the point of finding enjoyment in picking off helpless Jews with a long-range rifle??

And then came Columbine.

So why do you think he even ‘experimented’ with pardoning the housecleaner?

I think he respected Schindler enough (if for no other reason than he was rich and commanded respect) that Goeth became willing to see if exercising this power-through-mercy strategy was as fulfilling a way to demonstrate his power. Of course, to anyone who feeds off the fear and suffering of others, seeing people escape the punishment they “deserve”, even if it is by his own “generous” whim, would become unbearable. That’s why this new “attitude” (equally vainglorious, if less deadly) doesn’t last–it fails to satisfy his bloodlust.

Boy. I feel real stupid.

No need to be that hard on yourself. You’re just one of those “The Glass is Half-Full” people. Only the glass is half-full with lemonade you personally made from lemons. And the glass itself has a rose-colored tint. :wink:

'nother idea:

Goethe was, before Hitler’s rise, an okay guy. He bought into the Nazi ideology and became further and further divorced from humanity. Schindler tries to bring him back around, but at that point, he’s done so much evil he simply can’t. He has to believe that his previous atrocities are excusable. If he starts showing mercy now, it means he could have shown mercy to all the other innocents he killed. If he doesn’t have to kill now, he didn’t have to kill then, and that means he’s a monster. Whereas, if he continues to murder Jews and other undesirables without mercy or pity, he never has to re-examine his past actions and accept the burden of sin for what he has done.

Mind you, I haven’t seen the film since it was in the theaters, so my interpretation may not be supportable.

I thought Goeth was somewhat in awe of Schindler, and Schindler knew that and was trying to influence him.

Schindler tells the story about someone (I forget who) who pardons someone who had done something wrong, and then comments, “To say, ‘I pardon you’; that is real power.” Goeth looks impressed, but I don’t think he understood what Schindler meant by the statement. Hence we get the scene of him looking in the mirror, practicing saying “I pardon you” to see if it makes him look powerful. He tries it a couple times in public, but decides he prefers the kind of power that doesn’t make him seem all pardon-y.

While I’m on the topic, I also think it’s possible that Schindler didn’t fully understand what he meant by it either, but said it in the hope that it would somehow influence a power-mad Nazi ("…that’s real power…"), and possibly save the life of one or two Jews.

I always thought along the line of Archiveguy. Goethe wanted to see if pardoning people was really the rush of power that Schindler said it was. He found it wasn’t, and went back to the “fun” of shooting people from his balcony.

I think it also was partly Spielberg trying to show some complexity to his villians. They weren’t just mindless killing machines, but rather real live human beings with thoughts and emotions. It easy (and comforting) to say, “they’re not human, that could never happen again”. The film is trying to show that the Nazis were real people.

The character of Goethe tries to be more than the common man he is. He puts on airs of being a sophisticated man in his music and discussions of literature and classical history but he betrays his commonness in his actions.

The Vulgarity, his uncooth behaviour show his comoness. Watch how the other officers treat him in the movie There is a subtle contempt for him. Even his oppinion has little weight. Schindler is saved from prison by the friends he made not by Goethe’s testimonies.
I think he sees Schindler as the type of gentleman he wants to be seen as and when he tries to follow his example and fails.

Every time he fails he feels more inadequate and reverts to behaviours he knows and that is brutal violence.

In his attempt at being the forgiver he feels conflicted but believes this is how he can prove himself better than a commoner when he fails, he vents his anger towards himself towards the scape goat he is used to brutalizing.

This, of course, is only my oppinion on the character not the actual man

I think this is right - but less so in the film than in the original book by Thomas Kineally (Schindler’s Ark, later released as Schindler’s List). Although the film is one of the best adaptations I’ve seen - the book is much more detailed in it’s portayal of the characters.

The book goes to great lengths to show just how similar Oscar and Amon were. Both were corrupt men in a powerful world and had some kind of mutual respect. The difference was that Oscar was able to see the Jews as people and Amon had submitted to the view that they were not.

I think the scene/passage re the cleaning agent conversation is, as you suggest, Amon trying out Oscar’s type of power. He decides that the forceful [understatement, I know] approach suits him better. It also shows just how people have a choice in their basic behaviour, regardless of outside influences.

J.

great thoughts everyone. Thanks! As much as it’s a heartwrenching exercise, I may have to watch it again now.

He was a pretty good shot, too.

Goethe (though a real man) is used by Spielberg as a human manifestation of Naziism. There’s nothing good about the man at all, and there isn’t supposed to be, because the point of him is that he IS Naziism, and there’s nothing good about that. Aside from his obvious evil and brutality, mot of the others parallels between Goethe and Naziism have been pointed out, but I’ll run through what I think are the most important ones.

Jarbabyj, I don’t think you’re naive at all. I think you just went into the movie assuming Goethe was a traditional movie villian; a character with an evil streak who blocks the protagonist’s actions, with good nature twisted to suit evil means. But he is not. He is, primarily, a metaphor of the Nazi regime. If you watch Goethe thinking of him that way he makes a lot more sense:

  1. His airs of sophistication but reality of vulgarity and brutishness. Hitler and the Nazis did like to foist themselves off as sophisticated ubermenschen, but Nazis were mostly mediocre and dull, forwarding a vulgar, brutish way of life. Goethe pretends he is a civilized man, but he’s dirty, stupid, crude, vulgar, and profane.

Note how this contrasts with traditional Hollywood evil villians with lots of henchmen. They’re generally sophisticated types who listed to Bach and read Proust and sip expensive wines while their minions chase the good guys around. Hannibal Lecter is the most ridiculously intelligent Renaissance man in modern fiction. Bond villians are mostly rich, sophisticated guys. We had a Klingon bad guy spouting Shakespeare. It makes the bad guy seem even more evil if he’s sort of admirable. But the Nazis in “Schindler’s List” are nothing of the sort. Goethe is a dumb, banal man. The only Nazis who show any sophistication are the SS soldiers who argue over whether a guy is playing Mozart or Bach - it’s not coincidence they’re just privates and corporals, while all their officers are portrayed as mediocre men. The Nazis kill the Jews not by applying clever Evil Schemes, but by pure power and brutality.

  1. His authoritarian psychology. Goethe is dimissive of those underneath him and demands absolute, unswerving obedience; note on several occasions that he is brusque and rude even to subordinates. To those he percieves as his superiors - Schindler himself, or the officer he pleads with to release Schindler - he is a snivelling, belly-rolling dog, consistent with the authoritarian personality. Very typical of Nazis, or bullies of any sort; Hitler, Himmler et al. were authoritarians to an extreme degree.

Goethe’s scene with Helen Hirsch in the basement, and his later almost-but-not-quite admission of love for her, is an allusion to this. Nazis and other extreme authoritarians are disproportionately likely to be sexually repressed and puritanical, to suffer from psychosexual conflict (Hitler more so than most.) Goethe is attracted to Helen, but repulsed by his own natural feelings. His attraction to Helen is obviously stymied by his being a Nazi and her being a Jew, but clearly he is struggling to repress his own lust - which is why he conducts the entire conversation by himself, speaking for her in his head. He’s really struggling with his inability to admit his own sexual feelings, not just her being a Jew. That’s why, later in the film when he plays cards with Schindler for her life, he still cannot admit he loves her. He attempts to resolve his feelings but cannot and so transfers his sexual energy into violent energy - a classic pathology of the Nazi.

  1. His violent nature, obviously, all focused on a desire for power.
    The scene with Schindler convincing Goethe to try mercy reflects the difference between Goethe/Naziism and civilized behaviour in terms of power. Schindler believes what he’s saying, and it’s true, but he couches it in terms of how it reflects power because he’s trying to manipulate Goethe. Goethe applies Schindler’s idea because he wants to be powerful, and he thinks it will make him more powerful. It’s doesn’t show him as having any good in him - it shows exactly the opposite, that he is inhuman and power-hungry. He’s pardoning people to exercise power, not to pardon them. When he feels like it doesn’t make him more powerful, he simply stops using it.

When Schindler is dealing with Amon, he is NOT trying to get Goethe reconnected with his humanity. The genius of Schindler is that he fully understands Goethe and his ilk, and applies his power - manipulation - to manipulate their Nazi personalities. Schindler’s dynamic arc is that insteadof manipulating men for his own ends, he starts to manipulate them to save Jews. Schindler is MANIPULATING Goethe. He doesn’t think he can make Geothe more human; he’s just using Goethe’s own personality against Goethe, to try to save lives.

Spielberg is not trying to make any statement about whether or not these men were totally brainwashed - like me, I don’t think Spielberg thinks they were brainwashed at all. I think he’s saying these men were Nazis because these were the kind of men they were - brutal, authoritarian, repressed, and violent. Some of the lesser SS minions were normal humans - like the Bach-loving SS men, or the old men and boys at the end who abandon the factory. But the Nazi leaders were just that way because that was their personality. They were evil.

I sort of agree… but I think there is more of a blur in the two worlds of the civilized world and the nazi world in this film.

Note the two men discussing the music were also in the process of rounding up and murdering the people in the building. Also, in that scene the music carries on while punctuated with the mayhem of the murder. Here we have both the beautiful music of the German culture and the brutal evil that same culture could produce. Very powerful.

Here we have “civilized men” acting in a barbaric way. I think this has always been the enigma and facination with the Nazis by those who were fortunate not to live in those times. How can civilized men be brutes. I think Speilburg tried to pose that question too. Note hoe much more human these Nazis are compared to his cartoon Nazis in the Indiana Jones films.

They aren’t merely evil personified. they were flesh and blood creatures that could walk amongst us and if they believed us to be one of them we would never know.

I think of the scene where the SS officer starts shooting at the pile of burning corpses seemed telling to me.

My German is not good so I’m not sure what he is saying but to me the performence isn’t that of an evil man gloating over the dead but a human being finally snapping after seeing horror after horror. Even the most callous Nazi tried to make the mass murder "more clean " or “efficient” to be able to seperate themselves from the reality that they were slaughtering innocent men, women and children.

I applauded Speilburg because even in Goethe there are moments where he is human… twisted yes but you could see at one point in his life he was a regular man.

That’s what makes the whole thing so scary for me.

Very perceptive analysis, RickJay. But don’t overlook what jk1245 said: These villains are more than metaphors: They’re human beings, and they’re more disturbing for it. If they were merely monsters, the whole period of Nazi domination could be dismissed as an aberration. But they’re not monsters; they’re ordinary people. Thuggish and dim, yes, as you say, but people nonetheless. The Nazis in Spielberg’s Indiana Jones movies are cartoon antagonists, and we don’t care why they want what they want. The Nazis in Schindler’s List are not cartoons (well, some of them), and Goethe stands at the head of the list. If he were a mindlessly evil beast, he wouldn’t entertain the whole pardoning idea for even a moment. As it is, he toys with it in a way we can recognize and emotionally identify with. That makes it much more of a violation when he casually decides to abandon it.

I think that’s part of what made this movie so heartbreaking to me. We’re so used to, in literature, in hollywood, in all ‘entertainment’ having SOME silver lining. And yes, the saving of the List is certainly wonderful, but me, the pink half full lemonade gal, just sat there the whole time saying,

“PLEASE let him see what he’s doing, PLEASE let him realize what a monster he is. PLEASE let him pardon that boy, or fall in love with Helen, or do something to show me that he isn’t completely blackened.”

How sad that in real life, they were.