Indy cars and anti-gravity

I don’t like Indy racing (Le mans and WRC fan myself) but I like to read up about all cars’ technology. It’s often claimed that Indy cars generate so much down force from their spoiler and their body shaping that they could drive against gravity/upside down.

I’m guessing that this is sensationalism to get people interested in the sport, but I can’t see a way that this could be tested in the real world. I assume they just calculated how much downforce it generates at top speed, and compared that to Earth’s gravity, and the downforce was more. Is it possible that stock, an Indy car could actually drive on the underside of a bridge at topspeed? I’m thinking unless you have a rocket sled and somehow manage to slingshot the car to top speed without wrecking it, you’d need some sort of loop a few miles long that gradually turns upside down and the driver would have to counter steer until he was upside down.

Is it possible at all to drive an F-1 car upside down except on paper, if you’re not concerned about wrecking it? Am I misinterpreting what they mean by this claim? Or is it completely bogus?

Not knowing the math, but if what you say is true, there’s no reason why it coundlnt drive upside down… The trick part would be the transitions. to inverted and back.

If I were an engineering planning this thing, two things would mist concern me. One woulb be the road surface. As it twisted underneath the car to turn it over, I’d be worried that it would interfere with the airflow and reduce the suction.

The other woulb be that the tires would not have suffivient force upward to maintain maximum speed. The suspension is designed to to operate under several thousand pounds of pressure. Inverted it might only have a net of tens or hundreds of pounds pressing the tires against the surface. That would argue for an exceptionally smooth and level road surface. Once slight bounce away from the road wile inverted results in a fatal nose dive.

After some creative googling I found this page
A 2001 Penske-Reynard-Honda 01I Indy Car weighs about 1500lbs. The downforce listed can be adjusted between 1000 lbs (could not run upside down) all the way up to a whopping 4,888 lbs in road race configuration @ 200mph.
So in road race configuration upside down the car would still be pressing the tires into the road surface with over 2300 lbs of force!
So yes you could run one upside down.
Needless to say making the fuel system, and oiling system work while inverted will be left as an exercise for the student.

So why the heck isn’t there an upside-down formula 1 series yet? Just out of novelty factor I’m sure the entire world would tune in at least for the first couple weeks. :slight_smile:

The car isn’t likely to run very well upside down. The problem is that all the fluids in the car will be…well…not where they were designed to be.

I think Indy cars use dry sump oil systems, so maybe the motor oil wouldn’t be as big a problem as I presume. But I still think you’d end up with a cylinder head full of oil. For the mechanically disinclined: that’s a bad thing.

The cars could be redesigned to run well rightside up and upside down (with a bit more $$$). The bigger problem is safety. As bad as the accidents can be now, imagine how bad they would be when not only did the car or two get smashed up, but they then fell 10-30 feet, along with all the other cars that had to slow down behind them to avoid the collision (though I suppose if the cars that crash just fall off the track, they would be easier to avoid).

Hmm, maybe we should keep this idea just between us, we don’t want Fox or UPN to get any bad ideas.

I don’t know…it seems like at least some daredevil would try to do it…it’s way more impressive to drive 200+mph upside down than to get on a bike and jump a couple of buses. I’m thinking there are more complex technical problems with accomplishing this that no one has thought of.

On real TV I saw a peice about an Indian circus where a guy would drive around the inside of a wooden circular cage in this little car, parallel to the ground at I beleive around 45mph.

You can make an engine run upside - they’ve had engines that do so in airplanes for, oh, 60 or 70 years. The problem is, indeed, keeping the engine fluids in the engine, but it’s managable.

And circuses have long featured stunt riders of motorcycles riding around the inside of a cage or large ball, including inverted driving for at least a short while.

But for an entire race -? Keep in mind, the driver’s going to be hanging upside down the whole time, which is sort of the reverse of the way the human body is designed to operate. Again, it’s managable, but probably not very comfortable. Definitely want to be strapped in good - but then race drivers are, anyhow.

The main reason for that spoiler and the downward force on an Indy car it to avoid going airborne - being cars, they don’t fly well. There’s no way to steer them after launch.

Aerobatic pilot here.

I can almost see how to do this, although it’d be a WAAY tricky.

As folks have said, once the cars are up to speed there’s enough aerodynamic force available to more than offset gravity and make the cars stick to the underside of an inverted track. And making the engine & transmission operate upside down is just more engineering, bog-standard stuff from the aerospace world.

And as to crashes, the rest of the pack has no need to slow down. The moment anything interferes with the crashing cars’ aerodynamics, gravity takes over and they fall away from the track, leaving it completely free of obstacles and debris. Chain reaction collisions would be limited to one or two cars in immediate proximity. In this regard (alone) upside-down racing would be safer than rightside up racing.

The problem is how to get started. Obviously the downforce is related to speed, so there’s some minimum speed below which gravity is stronger and the cars fall from the track.

So we’ve got to get up to speed rightside up and then transfer somehow to upside down. And that’s the rub.
I’m going to put “downforce” in quotes hereafter to emphasize the fact we’re dealing with two different coordinate systems, one aligned with Earth gravity & the other aligned with the car’s present orientation. One of the hard things for non-flyers to learn to to keep straight is the difference between the two systems. While flying, particularly aerobatics, there are always two “downs”: little-d down from your head to your feet, and big-D Down from the sky to the Earth’s center. And they’re usually not aligned.

The critical point to always bear in mind is that gravity is always pulling towards the center of the Earth, while the “downforce” of the car is always pulling from the driver’s head toward the wheels. On a normal track those forces are in the same direction & hence additive. On an inverted track they’re in opposite directions and hence subtractive.

But what about during the transition? There are two ways to get from rightside up to inverted: a 1/2 loop & a 1/2 roll. The roll is easy in an airplane, but hard in a car. At the 90 degree point (called “knife edge” in flying) where the track would be “banked” to 90 degrees, gravity is still pulling down, but the “downforce” is straight sideways & the cars will instantly slide to the bottom of the track, net of their tires’ ability to generate cornering forces. But they need 1G of cornering force to stick to the track, and that’s gonna be real hard to pull off.

A 1/2 loop would be easier. Somebody mentioned the old “motorcycles inside a sphere” act. That’s an example of centrifugal (I know, I know, but it makes for an easier explanation) force. Those bikes & riders never feel a net negative G; they’re always being pulled to the outside of the sphere since the cetrifugal force generated by their speed is greater than gravity.

Now in those acts the sphere is very small, say 20 feet diameter, and the bikes aren’t going all that fast, say 20 mph.

Doing the same thing at 150 mph would be problematic. That’s a speed comparable to the small airplanes that do competitive areobatics and that you see at airshows. Notice the loops they do are several hundred feet high. The turn radius is driven by the speed times the centrifugal forces the pilot/aircraft can stand. The cars would actually have a lower maximum G force they could stand, implying an even larger radius 1/2 loop would be required.

So we could have an ordinary oval track the cars use to gain speed, and then once at 150-200 mph they’d enter a chute that is a giant on-ramp in the shape of a 1/2 loop . The cars zoom up this half loop chute and are fully inverted at say 800 feet above the ground. Now what?

Getting them back down to ground level so the spectators can watch and so the falls from the track aren’t guaranteed fatal is gonna be tough.

Certainly the 1/2 loop could be instead a 5/8ths loop and now they’re headed back downhill at 45 degrees on the underside of the track. Their “downforce” is offset from gravity by 45 degrees, so their “grip” on the track is pretty tenuous right now. Only about 70% (1/SQRT(2)) of their “downforce” is working directly against gravity. So the net force holding them to the track is (.70 * “downforce” - weight).

Now we get back to near ground level. The track (& drivers) needs to pull out of their dive. But now centrifugal force is working to pull them away from the track. So the turn radius in the vertical dimension must be pretty huge to avoid reducing their already tenuous grip on the track too much.

My gut feel is it can’t quite be done, at leat not with cars which are driven by their wheels. It takes a horrendous amount of energy to push a car through the air at 150+ mph. That energy is transferred to the track via the traction of the wheels. That traction is proportional to the net “downforce.” If the net is small, say a couple of hundred pounds, the cars will not be able to transfer enough power to the track to maintain speed.

Sorta like trying to accelerate hard on ice. The lack of traction precludes putting very much power through the wheels into the pavement.

In all, I’ve written waay to many words to come to a half-baked almost -comnclusion, but what the heck, I’m gonna hit submit anyhow; electrons are cheap

Great post. Fascinating stuff. Two thumbs pointing in the opposite direction from the downforce. :slight_smile:

The most fundamental limitation here is demand to meet the costs.

The other limitations are extremely smooth and straight surfaces for miles and miles which costs money to build and maintain, as well as the money required to repair/replace the wrecked cars, as well as human drivers being able to do the balancing act prior to achieving inversion. Most humans would die off trying before gaining the skills required to guide the car around the turn, up the spiral, ect.

The youngest of us here will not live to see this. But it’s fun to imagine since it’s not only physically possible, but achievable by our current technology given enough people and money.

Nice post there, LSLGuy, with a few additions…

This I love. We don’t need yellow flags, just more ambulances. Hee-hee. :slight_smile:

I think you’re wrong on this one. The half roll could be nicely done.

I follow Formula 1 but the same figures apply to other formulae. F1 cars routinely generate over three Gs of lateral cornering acceleration. That is more than enough for the car halfway through its transition to knife-edge right out of sight. The big D Down may be there but I have a ton (literally) of downforce and a C[sub]f[/sub] of well over unity and will stick like glue to that pesky wall.

But remember that we have over three Gs of downforce working. Even with Down subtracting one G I have plenty left over for power trasmission to the road. And I only need one or so. Downforce is not a consideration for traction power transmission, though it’s a nice benefit if you’re racing on a track with corners. :smiley: F1 cars accelerate very smartly from a dead stop with no aerodynamic downforce and the one G of gravity alone to provide tractive force. Power transmission will be the least of my worries when I’m racing up on the lid…

So we eliminate the dangerous transition and go for the entirely upside down race.

First, imagine the track shape. An oval, when seen from overhead it looks like the turns are reverse-banked, but the cars are going to race on the underside. Which leads to problem #1, about the only decent place to put the audience is within or under the oval. Solution #1, make everybidy sign a waiver and do it in some accommodating and desperate former east bloc country.

What I see are sets of monorail tracks that the cars clamp to until they get up to the necessary speed. If we want to be fancy how about some monorail tracks that can be recessed into the road surface going entirely around the track. Under a “caution” the tracks pop out, everybody rides them until an all clear signal, and the the tracks recess and everybody races again.

You’d also need some kid of switchable rail system leading into Pit Row. That might be the most complicated part of the whole deal.

Of course they can. Haven’t you ever played Hot Wheels? :smiley:

Instead of having the whole track upside-down, just have a single loop just “behind” the starting line. The cars would have built up enough speed to make the loop by then, and it doesn’t spend enough time upside down for gravity to be an issue. In fact, centripetal force keeps everything aligned correctly, just as a rollecoaster won’t dump anybody out of the car while it’s going through its twists and turns.

Of course, then we’d have to worry about crashes at the top of the loop interfering with the cars at the bottom…

That’s not a worry: That’s a selling point.

Good info there, MM. I don’t follow auto racing in detail any more, so I was speaking in generalities. Assuming your numbers are true, then you’re half-right that the half roll is the way to go (halfway, as we’ll see).

Note that the whole purpose for the cars having aerodynamic downforce is to enable the high cornering Gs. You get something that sticks to the road like it weighs 6000# while only having to generate cornering forces to change the direction of a 1500# machine. That enables the high cornering Gs. Said another way, the ability to generate high cornering forces is dependent on having massive “downforce”. less downforce = less cornering G

I recall some of the first aerodynamic cars in the early 1960s, Jim Hall’s Chaparral (sp?) series. They had moveable wings that produced no downforce and no drag during straightaways but moved to create downforce during turns. He kicked serious butt for a couple of years until the rules changed to prohibit moving airfoils.

The issue, besides competitivity, was that if the wing malfunctioned, the driver’d be entering a turn maybe 75mph faster than he could safely make the corner, and some horrific straight-into-the-wall crashes occurred. I was a kid then and built a LOT of Group 7 models. Thanks for the reminder.

Getting back to upside down racing, & borrowing some numbers from your post and someody else’s previous …

Now for the knife edge case we’ve got say 1500# straight Down from the car’s weight, 4500# horizontally into the track surface from “downforce”. The car needs to pull 1 G lateral (in its frame of reference) to maintain its position in the middle of the vertical track. In a normal corner on a flat surface, the car can pull 3Gs lateral with a net normal force of 6000#. All the relevant equations are linear, so it ought to work fine, so far …

The tough part happens just after you pass knife edge and are at say 100 degrees of roll. At that point your “downforce” vector is only 10 degrees above the horizontal and only sin(10 deg) = 17% of your “downforce” is directed against gravity. That’s where the cars fall off the track. Oops. They can’t generate 8 or 10x their weight in “downforce” to stick to the track.

And once they’re past 90 degrees the cornering force of the tires isn’t relevant or helpful. Yes, as long as they’re on the surface it’ll be available to keep them aligned within the lateral boundaries of the track, but it won’t prevent them from falling away from it, at which point all cornering forces drop to zero.

Damn. The half roll works, but only halfway. Hence my original suggestion to use the half loop.

In aerobatics, the region of roll between knife edge and inverted is where people do sloppy work while learning. It’s easy to let the nose drop and end up with a descending corkscrew instead of a level roll. Assuming you’re far enough above the ground, that’s not dangerous … in an airplane.

But a descending spiral away from the track doesn’t work so good in a car. And the way you avoid that mistake in performing a roll in an airplane is to manipulate the controls to keep adding additional force directed against D-Down, whichever direction that may be at the moment in your reference frame. That’s fairly easy to do in a machine with 3D controls. Not so in a car with 2D controls.

Changing gears (Ar Ar, car humor, I kill me) …

I’ve gotta say this is a fun excursion into quasi-engineering silliness. This is the whimsy this board was made for. Now, I’m off to do the mundane weekend chores. But I’m gonna be thinkin’ 'bout this one. There ought to be a way …

To answer the actual question in the OP, yeah, they just say it because it’s more interesting/easy for the rednecks to understand than “the downforce is quite a bit more than the weight of the car.”

It’s entirely possible for them to drive (in a straight line – cornering might get iffy, as other posters have said) on the ceiling, but the problem is getting them up there. Perhaps they could start upside-down, with some sort of rolling hanger system (like on a below-the-track rollercoaster) that retracts once the car gets to operating speed? Then you could just mount the engine upside down, and avoid the problems with oiling and such…

Ah, but they can. There are many rules in place in the current racing series to limit the amount of downforce to keep cornering speeds from being ridiculously high. Remove these limitations and the cars would be quite capable of generating in excess of 10,000lbs of downforce. I think that might be sufficient :slight_smile:

I’m not sure I agree. As long as the aerodynamic force is pushing the car against the road surface, the tires are providing “cornering force” parallel to the road surface. At 110 degrees, this force is mostly straight up (20 degrees from vertical). The net force on the car is (aerodynamic “downforce”)*((coeff. of friction)*cos(110) + sin(110)).

Make the track a tube loop. At speed, each car must be able to generate say 5 x it’s weight in aerodynamic down = towards the wheels. Put cameras in the front and rear of all the cars and let the TV folks put the race on screens. As long as the force away from the track surface did not exceed say 3.5 G’s the cars could run on all the surfaces, including the inner side of the circle if the driver could handle the negative G’s and did not ‘red’ out…

Would need inverted systems in the cars and the ability to generate 5+ x it’s weight in aerodynamic force towards the wheels.

Or make the track in a C shape and place the spectators on the inside of the track looking into the C…

Or a clear lexan tube…

Or, lets all go to the AIR RACES instead…

Actually, on an circular track, the vertical wall would be the best place, because then the car is just going in a straight line… Then it is just a speed race as long as the driver could stand the G’s…