The Whole Nine Yards, Another idea

Here is another idea as to where this expression came from. In India women wear saris and the traditional length for the average sari is six yards. However, for very formal occasions or in very traditional situations. women can wear a sari that is nine yards long. What do all of you think about this?

That it is patently absurd.

Waste

Well, I think that the next step would be to prove the link between sari-wearing women and an English phrase. The obstacles are considerable: why is cloth for an Indian garment traditionally measured in English yards? Considering the English presence in India was not as dressmakers to the local population, why did the English pick up on a quirk of the local language? Can you provide a cite of “the whole nine yards” in print in India? Why is nine yards ideal for a sari when ten yards, presumably even more cloth, might be even better? Why is nine yards ideal for a sari when women are of varying heights and weights?

It’s not impossible. Stranger things have happened.

Oh, and you might wish to ask a mod to move this to “Comments on Cecil’s Columns” where there is another discussion on this very topic.

Off to CCC.

DrMatrix - GQ Moderator

Welcome to the SDMB, John. This appears to have been intended to be a comment on Cecil’s column, so I’ll move it to the CCC forum. For future reference, a link to Cecil’s column is appreciated. Providing one can be as simple as pasting the URL into your post, making sure to leave a blank space on either side of it. Like so: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_252.html

bibliophage
moderator GQ

listens for an echo :slight_smile:

As you may have guessed from the somewhat terse responses and the very specific questions you got, this is a discussion we have here fairly often–as well as one we’d all dearly love to put to rest.

The problem is that the earliest print references to this phrase seem to have appeared in the early 1960s in the United States. Any sucessful explanation of the phrase’s origin would have to be documented (preferably in print) earlier than that date and include some information about the origin.

For further reading, look at this recent thread http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=254889

In particular, look at the second post of that thread, in which av8rmike provides links to many previous threads on the same column.

im not entirely sure that the 9 yard theory of sari was as good as my, if not supported then more believable ammo belt one. 27 feet seems like a lot of cloth to wrap around yourself, but then, im not an indian woman, so wouldn’t know. I do know, however, that belts of 7.62 ammunition, at least in british ammunition boxes are 3 yards long, so perhaps the existence of a multiple is a slight amount of proof. Also, of course, the story could have come from the korean war or not even a war at all. lots of phrases come from military slang after all, i am feverishly researching as you read this.

While the phrase could arguably have come from the Korean War, you’re still talking about (roughly) a ten year lag, which seems implausible. But the most common expression of this rumour is WWII.
It would be nice to find someone to confirm whether an ammo belt WAS, in fact, nine yards long. That might squelch that explanation for once and all.

:confused: I thought we did. There was a thread a few months back where someone posted a great explanation. IIRC, there really wasn’t an ammo belt of a fixed length. Ammo was held together by little link things and a belt was made by using the little links to attach some number of shells to each other. Search is crapping out right now, I’ll try to look in a little while.

Who’s sari now?

Ah ha!

origins of “whole nine yards”

Look about 2/3’s of the way down the thread starting with Bookkeeper’s post (#17) and continuing on from there.

Thanks, Zakalwe, I had forgot. So the status is still: ammo belts probably were 27 feet long, but no one has found a reference to phrase before the mid-1960s.

Yeah, that’s about where I had it. This thing is becoming the holy grail of etymology.

I looked through the other threads, but I must have missed it. What is that actual “first” reference from the 60s?

The first reference is in 1965-66, a work of semi-fiction by Elaine Shepard, called “Doom Pussy.” She has one of her caracters use it twice. Ms. Shepard was a war correspondent in Vietnam, who actually lived with the pilots.

Having an amo belt means never having to say you’re sari.