Will passenger airships ever come back? Or freight airships?

I just saw a CNN piece on a military plan to use lighter-than-air dirigibles for aerial surveillance. There was a big white one flying over Washington. The advantage is that it’s slower than an airplane, can stay up longer than a helicopter, and if it has to fly over a battlefield, it’s above most fire and can be punctured by a lot of bullets and still maintain its integrity. Also, it’s, believe it or not, “unobtrusive” – huge, but quiet.

Makes me wonder – in its day, which pretty much ended with the Hindenberg disaster in 1937, the passenger airship was a posh way to travel, like a flying ocean liner. Could it ever come back? For sheer speed, it could never compete with jet airplanes – but is there some other market niche it could find? Some advantage it could offer?

Then there’s freight. The Wikipedia – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship – says “Recently, several companies have begun exploring the possibilities of airships with their potentially huge lifting capacities, near-VTOL capabilities, and potentially lower freight costs, though none has demonstrated the economic viability yet.” If they did, how would that affect the world economy? Would it lower shipping costs for any commodity? In terms of capacity or speed or safety or fuel economy, would a freight airship offer any advantages over an oceangoing freighter?

If a multiphase carbon composite with the right properties can be made, then yes.

Pump all the air out of an object without losing volume, & if the object is light enough, it will float in the air.

A multiphase carbon composite might be light enough to make a vaccum-lift zeppelin possible.

What advantage would that offer over a helium-filled airship?

Think: evacuation pumps".

Unless you’re trying to make some kind of nasty pun, which is what I’d be doing, I don’t get it. Do you mean that such technology would make airships cheaper, because you wouldn’t need to provide the helium? Maybe so, but that “multiphase carbon composite” wouldn’t come cheap.

Oh yeah–and tilt-rotor drive. To enhance maneauverability during take-off & landings.

A lifting-body shape for the upper structure would be nice, too. Electrical motors for drive, with, say, a liquified-propane fuel to run a generator, housed in a pod outside the body for safety.

And for keel ballast, we use batteries–doubling as backup power.

With built in evacuation pumps, land-based storage of helium is unnecessary. Saving dough in airport construction. And run a power cable out to he Zep to restore lift at each end.

Seems to me that all that would be doable with current technology – but I’m no engineer. Is it?

BrainGlutton, I think we finally agree on something. I have always been fascinated by the concept of airships and have wondered why you never really see them anymore. There have been threads on this subject before but I think it’s time for a new one, anyway.

I would imagine the only problem with freight airships as opposed to cargo ships would be that should something happen to an airship causing it to drop its payload, tons and tons of crap would fall down all over the ground below, almost certainly destroying all the cargo and possibly destroying things below too, and the risk of lawsuits from anyone hit by said payload.

There’s a smaller margin of error for aerial freight fuckups - the modern-day Coast Guard can often respond to emergencies before a ship can sink, should something happen; the same problems could be much larger thousands of feet above the air.

I think a better application for airships would be a ritzy way of traveling. You’d be able to see a lot of beautiful areas and have plenty of time to enjoy the scenery, take pictures, and whatnot. Since the trip would take a long time, airships would probably include cabins for people to stay in and upscale restaurants to eat at.

Maybe Bosda, who seems to know a lot about the technical end of this, can correct me here; but I imagine if a disaster happened on an airship – not a Hindenberg-scale explosion, but something that would cause a major puncture in the gas envelope – the ship could be built with separate internal chambers so that, even if the puncture were huge and irreparable, the gas would leak out (or, in the case of an evacuated multiphase carbon composite envelope, the air would leak in) at a slow and manageable rate, and the ship would settle to the ground slowly instead of plummeting like a rock.

And it would be much simpler to build in safeguards to make sure the ship never “drops its payload” unintentionally.

Of course, separate internal chambers did a lot for the Titanic . . .

Every now and then Popular Science or Popular Mechanics has blurbs about stuff like this, including airships that could deliver fifty tons of gear or some such. My guess is that if anyone picks up the idea, the American military will be the first, with shipping companies picking up the idea gradually for short hops into disaster-devastated areas. I don’t see the idea competing with conventional container shipping or passenger travel, though.

Quite correct.
:slight_smile:

Ships have always been the most efficient way to move cargo. The main advantage airships have over ships is the obvious one; they aren’t limited to travel near water. But in terms of moving units of cargo per unit of energy, I doubt an airship is ever going to compete against a locomotive or even a truck. Now that the railroad and highway systems have been built, the incentive for shipping by airship is minimal. In terms of air travel, airplanes offer a huge advantage in speed. As for military use - airship’s just another word for “big slow unarmored target”.

Despite Wikipedia speculation, I doubt there’s any viability in long-distance freight airships. Large ocean freighters and long-distance rail freight are the two most effecient forms of transporting goods, bar none. And this efficiency increases with every larger ship, with every longer train, with every improvement to track or to port infrastructure.

(Can anyone find a figure for the total weight of the load on a typical N American freight train?)

The Navy could make good use of long-range, high capacity cargo airships–in supporting the Carrier Fleet at sea. Just lower cargo to the deck by cable/basket/winch.

Zeppelins would be ideal for shipping fruit from the tropics to the States or Europe. Faster than a ship, for that field-to-the-table freshness. It could pick up cargo from undeveloped areas. If the cargo bay is unpressurized, high altitude would act like a refridgerator, keeping the cargo fresh.

Bulk mail shippping might be very practical.

And think: Flying Cruise Ship. Wanna see Mount Everest–from above? From your stateroom?

That brings up another point. A dirigible looks big but most of that is the gasbag, not the gondola. I wonder, how many passengers could an airship carry? I mean, compared to an airliner? I think the Hindenberg only carried a few dozen. Of course, it inevitably reduces the number if you’re going to give every passenger a stateroom. And what would a trip cost, compared to say, going an equivalent distance on the Queen Mary II?

I don’t even mean some kind of payload-dropping device being triggered accidentally. I mean: what if for some reason our airship exploded? If a ship explodes in the middle of the ocean, well, it’s in the middle of the ocean. If a ship explodes over my house…

You’re mixing apples and oranges here.

First, a dirigible of any sort could function as a flying crane, carrying cargo suspended below it – no problem with the concept, and the points already brought up about what happens if it is involved in an accident. But it would be my presumption that with very rare exceptions (moving big generators to rugged hydro sites, for example) you’d do interior cargo carrying, much like an airplane – you don’t sling the stuff beneath a C-5A, but load it inside it, in a cargo space.

Second, there are two (actually three) classes of dirigible, which are as different as a kayak and a hydrofoil. A blimp is a giant fusiform helium balloon with attached gondola – you inflate the balloon, and ride in the gondola slung below it. You load the cargo into the gondola too – and you need a relatively big gondola to hold everything.

But a rigid airship, like what the Navy flew in the 1930s and the Zeppelins, is a bunch of balloons inside an aluminum frame, which need not take up all the space inside the frame. Normally the bridge of a zeppelin was in a gondola in the normal location – attached to the front underside of the hull – but it need not be. And passenger and cargo space were located largely inside the frame, in areas where lifting cells were not mounted. The disadvantages of zeppelins were that 1920s and 1930s technology was not adequate to build a ship that would stand up under strong windshear (though the Graf Zeppelin and the Los Angeles, German-built, did better than any airplane of the time could, and never crashed), and that you do have the parasitic weight of the ship’s frame to contend with. But in terms of added cargo and passenger capacity, the latter is far offset by the advantages, and I’m quite confident that 21st century metallurgical technology and engineeering can overcome the windshear problem.

The idea of a flying cruise liner capable of doing 100 knots or hovering and passing over either land or sea makes immense sense – from the accounts of wealthy 1930s people, there was nothing comparable; it combined the best aspects of an airliner flight and a ocean cruise, with the added advantage of absolute stability – nothing would disturb an airship in flight, unlike wave action or air turbulence (the latter of which it was large enough and slow enough not to be bothered by).

Cargo carrying, it’s debatable whether it could compete economically with airliners – at present. Although if the price of aviation fuel continues to rise, those who need to ship something relatively fast and inexpensively may think twice about their investments.

I’d say that technologically there are no dealbreakers, and economically it would make sense to build them – but there’s still a lingering memory of the Hindenburg as nearly the sole public knowledge of zeppelins – and no recall of the long and nearly problem-free careers of the Graf and the Los Angeles.

They don’t use hydrogren for lift any more, only helium, which is a “noble gas” and can’t burn. And the engines would be, you know, just engines – maybe fueled by liquid propane as Bosda suggested, but in any case not by anything extraordinarily dangerous. So why would it explode?