Concerning story about the whole nine yards
Link: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_252.html
… it is military in origin WWI A/C took exactly 27ft of ammunition in each wing, when the gun loaders would ask the pilot how much to put in the answer was usally “The whole nine yards”.
Yep. Definitely needs a sticky.
To be a bit more helpful, here’s a link to a previous thread on this subject, with lot’s of link to even earlier threads.
Welcome to the boards (and you even provided a link!)
If this is so, why is the phrase not recorded anywhere before the mid 60s? How could there be a 50 year gap?
All planes - irrelevant of size, maker, number of guns, usage of metric or imperial measurement - took exactly 27ft of ammo? Seems unlikely, doesn’t it, on reflection?
In any case WWI planes did not carry ammo in their wings.
That this can’t be traced back further than the mid-1960s strongly suggests that the origin likely isn’t much earlier. There are LOTS of newspapers and magazines archived on microfilm, etc. If this phrase were in any sort of common use (even in say a specific trade) much earlier, surely at least one example could be found.
How many “whole nine yards” threads have we had on this MB? Must be about 15 or 20 so far. We’ll have to come up with a special prize for the person (Guests only) who starts the hundredth … but only if they don’t mention ammo belts…
This truly is one of the most puzzling phrases in terms of tracking down the origin. Particularly as I am unaware of a verfiable cite of the usage of the term before the mid-1960s. So recent, yet so elusive.
From what I’ve read about it, I strongly suspect it originated among the people fighting the Vietnam War. But not as a reference to ammo belts of any sort.
OK, first, eliminate the silly. MOST WWII fighter planes, the F4 Corsair, the F6, the F8, the P51, the P40, the P47 had the machine guns in the wings. The Corsair had SIX .50 caliber machine guns, the old Ma Duece as it’s known among those of us who know what we’re talking about. Or the Browning M2 Aircooled Machine gun. The thing weighs 130 pounds. So, if they were in the wings, where do you suppose the ammo was? The P47D had four guns in each wing, for a total of 8 guns.
OK, next. It doesn’t really matter what the capacity of the wing space was, what’s more important is the .50 caliber ammo comes in metal cans. You’ve probably seen them at the Army Navy store or elsewhere. They hold 50 round belts. You then link the belts together. This aircraft carried 450 rounds per wing, or 900 rounds total. So, if the bullet is .50 caliber, the case is about .75 in diameter, or about 3/4 of an inch. Count the space between them they’re about 4 and a half feet long per belt. So an aircraft that used six belts would have… 27 feet of ammo… The P47 of course would have far more than that, but not every aircraft was armed the same.
Third, it’s said this expression wasn’t around until the 50’s or even 60’s. WWII was over in 1945. War movies and war novels didn’t come around until the next generation, after all, the people who lived it weren’t really interested in reliving it. But their kids, the baby boomers, would have been the target audience. Logically, you wouldn’t see any of those expressions until a few years later, and quite frankly as a veteran, I can tell you that there a lot of other expressions that aren’t often carried on to the civilian world, simply because there’s no use for them. If you don’t believe me, go down to your local Army-Navy store and ask for a box of grid squares and have them explain to you what the Army uses them for.
CPL
Well, no. Hollywood was churning out war movies during WWII, and there were plenty of Korean War-related movies during the 1950s.
Please note that Cecil has addressed the ammunition belt theory in Who invented the cocktail umbrella–and why? – in the second part of the column, he discusses that “explanation.” The state of the art amongst etymologists is that the explanation isn’t disproved [yet], but that it’s not proved, either, and the 15 - 18 year gap is a serious obstacle.
First, I wanted to expell the “no ammo in the wings” theory.
Interestingly enough, there are .50 caliber machine guns still in use. And they were used on Huey UH1B and UH1D helicopters in Viet Nam. As well as on some of the older jets. Any chance the expression came from Viet Nam?
Rob
Such little actual evidence as exists suggests that it did come from Vietnam. That’s the problem. No one has come up with a Vietnamese explanation.
I can easily imagine that of all the films made during WWII, if “the whole nine yards” was being used WRT ammunition belts, it wouldn’t have made it into these films, simply because the scriptwriters were stateside, and not in direct contact with the soldiers overseas. However immediately after WWII, the returning soldiers were revered as heroes (as opposed to say Vietnam). Many newspaper and magazine articles were written where soldiers were interviewed and quoted. One might expect that if this term were in common use in WWII, some airman would have uttered it to a reporter, and it being quoted in print. The lack of even one such report including that phrase makes it seem dubious it was used in WWII.
What is the absolute first documented cite of this term? On source mentions 1966. If true, than this is just about right for it to have come from Vietnam. Significant US miltary involvement started just a couple years earlier. If a cite can be found in the early 1960s, that pretty much would eliminate a Vietnam origin.
(Filler until someone with a better memory answers.) As I recall, it was a news story about Vietnam.
First cite was the 1967 book “DOOM Pussy” by Elaine Shepard, a Viet Nam war correspondent. It was a semi-fictional book, with characters based on the pilots she was imbedded with(and some would say, were imbedded in her 
). She wrote the book while in Viet Nam in 1966, published the next year.
Next cite is a 1968 note from the USAF Academy(I don’t have the exact context right now).
Third cites are 1969 classified ads in Florida newspapers(Home of Eglin AF Base).
You seems to have missed that the OP mentioned WWI planes, not WWII planes. WWI planes did not carry ammo in the wings, as their wings were not hollow.
You’re missing my next point also. The OP said “WWI planes”, you are responding with US fighter planes only. In fact you grant my point at the end, “not every aircraft was armed the same”. Exactly.
I’m afraid this is almost totally incorrect. WWII movies and novels were made and written during the war, and immediately after as well. Where did you get such an odd idea? WWII was the most extensively contemporaneously documented event in history up til that point, it is inconceivable that a phrase like this in common usage would go unmentioned in any source for over 20 years.
Let’s put it this way. You argue that some US fighter planes used ammo belts 27’ long, and let’s grant that that is so. What evidence is there that this led to the phrase “the whole nine yards”? You would need a documented instance of it being used in this way during WWII.
In what circumstance would, for instance, a gun-loader ask a fighter pilot how much ammo he wanted? My assumption would be they would always want all they could carry.
rdamurphy, speaking of the P47-D
Actually, the P47-C and P47-D both carried 425 rounds per gun. .50 cal MGs don’t have the highest rate of fire but 450 rounds for 4 guns would not last very long in a dogfight of any duration.
http://www.savagesquadron.com/USpage/USFighters/Thunderbolt_P47D.htm
http://www.planes.narod.ru/P47.html
Couple other planes rdamurphy mentioned:
The F4U-1A Corsair had 6x.50 cal MG and carried 390 rounds per gun
F6F-3 Hellcat: 6x.50 cal MG and 400 rounds per gun
P51-D Mustang: 6x.50 cal MG and 400 rounds per gun
P40-E1 Warhawk: 6x.50 cal MG and 230 rounds per gun
I just had a thought. Does any have a copy, or have access to a copy, of “Doom Pussy”? In this post:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=166516&page=2&highlight=DOOM+Pussy
You mention a character uses the term 3 different times. I’d be very interested to read the exact passages where it is used, and the context. “The whole nine yards” is used in several different ways. The first is “the whole nine yards” means “everything”. To use the example CurtC gave in the above thread: "As in “he put all he owned into the truck - the TV, the sofa, all his bedroom furniture, the whole nine yards.” The second usage is “to give it the whole nine yards”. This would be consistent with the ammo belt theory. As in “the gunner gave the enemy plane the whole nine yards, and took it down.” The third is “Go the whole nine yards.” This meaning to go the full distance needed. This is consistent with the football theory.
Now, which of these 3 contexts did Elaine Shepard use it in “Doom Pussy”? Did the airmen give the enemy the whole nine yards? Did the successfully complete the mission by “going the whole nine yards?” Or was “the whole nine yards” used in the sense CurtC mentioned in that thread?
Bad assumption. Any airplane has a number of factors that are used to determine takeoff weight. Many overseas airliner flights do not carry a full complement of passengers due to weight restrictions. Air temperature, barometric pressure, altitude and cargo determine how much you could carry. An airplane MIGHT carry a full load of fuel and a short load of ammo. Or bombs and ammo and half fuel. In other words, most airplanes cannot be “fully loaded” and get off the ground. Regardless of if you’re talking WW1 or a present day F-14D Tomcat. Remember, a lot of these flights took off from the deck of a very small carrier with no catapault.
I totally missed the WW1 vs WW2 reference. :smack: However, since the M2 .50 was in use in WW1, it could still apply. I’m kind of leaning toward the Viet Nam thing now, there were a number of aircraft equipped with 20 mm cannons that were belt fed, in addition the Helicopter Gunships. Since the M61A1 fires 6,600 rounds per minute, I would think that nine yards of ammo would be little more than a burst…
Robert