Abiogenesis: what happens to creationism if and when it hits paydirt?

In general, we’ve never been able to have very interesting debates about evolution on this board because almost no one among our regulars is either a creationist, or interested in the subject. So this is thread is really something more of a question about social movements as much as science. And more specifically it’s about abiogenesis (the study of how life could have arisen spontaneously from the early conditions on earth), how creationists scoff at it, and what major developments in the field might do to their movement.

Essentially, the common view of most of the more sophisticated ID theorists and creationists is that, while they may have to retreat on most other fronts, abiogenesis is simply where naturalistic explanations of life will and must fail. This idea is essentially held as their bedrock position: maybe science might be able to defend everything else (evolution), but it can never, ever get over this particular hump (abiogenesis).

This also leads to a peculiar implication that it discredits all of evolution. ID theorists are the best at this: while they generally headline their work as taking Darwin down a peg they are generally VERY careful not to claim outright that they discount natural selection as a plausible speciation mechanism or even common descent as a fact. Instead, by attacking the fundamentals of molecular evolution and abiogenesis, they seem to feel that they can undermine Darwinian synthesis without having to actually come out and say “the Dodo didn’t evolve from pigeons: preposterous!” Regular creationists do the same sort of thing, only in a less sophisticated way: they joke about “molecules to man” as if the believed impluasibility of the “molecules” part discredited the rest of the chain of common descent.

What I suspect, however, is that such creationists and ID theorists are in for a big surprise in the relatively near future, as major developments in the study of early life continue apace and gain wider notice and appeal.

Now, to be clear, abiogenesis is, at base, and maybe always will be, a science of plausibility rather than historical fact. That is, we do not have, and do not really ever expect to have, any concrete physical evidence showing us what actually did happen to create life 3.5 billion years ago or so. Whatever physical evidence of what happened that there even could have been for nano-level chemical reactions would by now be wiped out by billions of years of erosion and chemical reaction and the actions of living organisms themselves. So abiogenesis largely just has to work by taking as a given the general conditions of the early earth and then figure out what plausible mechanisms for creating life there could have been. Even if we find several such mechanisms, and they are all entirely plausible as “the” explanation, we probably cannot definitively prove that any single one was “the” explanation for our planet in particular. We cannot rule out acts of God or aliens or whatever. All we could do is show these deus ex machina explanations to be unecessary.

But in that study, we already seem tantilizingly close: far closer than creationist or ID literature seems to acknowledge. As you can tell from most of their descriptions, they envision the problem as being one of jumping from simple organic compounds to unbelievably complex bacteria: something that would, indeed, be impossible. But then, this concept seems to rely upon the long outdated concept that what we need explain is “life.” “Life” however, is quite a misleading term, since there is no good way to define its boundaries when we get down to simpler and simpler forms. What we are really trying to explain is heredity: reproducing things that can be subject to natural selection, and hence could plausibly evolve into more and more complex forms over time, leaving behind the need for “chance” jumps.

And while creationists are comfortable in their belief that the claimed “tree of life” terminates in bacteria (which are still up to millions of base pairs of genetic information long), the fact is over the last couple of decades scientists have been discovering and exploring whole new realms of… er… “things.” This webpage has a good summary, grouping them all under the heading of “subcellular” (which is what they are).
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/subcellular.html

A disclaimer here: none of these things themselves solve the problem of how simple organic compounds could have been catalyzed into heredity. But they do essentially extend the tree of life much farther down into the depths of simple biochemistry as well as helping to further erode that essentialist shibboleth of “life” as a singular discrete boundary that inorganic matter must somehow climb over into.

And, as this page notes, it’s only even been 7 or so years since we discovered reproducing, evolveable RNA “monsters” with less than 50 base pairs, albiet currently able to live only in a very specific form of artificial environment that includes an enzyme (though, actually, the enzyme is itself all that is necessary: you don’t even need to “seed” it with any RNA for it alone to produce RNA monsters). That’s barely any time at all to digest and further innovate in this area, though lots of interesting work indeed is ongoing.

But regardless of where any specific abiogenetic theory is, or how soon major breakthroughs will be made, the subject for debate here is: what will happen? What will happen if, over the course of the next ten years, we get discovery after discovery, culminating in basically a quite reasonable fleshed out pathway from simple organic compounds to simple life as well as several different experimental simulations that produce rapidly evolving replicators from scratch within plausible environmental conditions?

Will creationism be dealt a deathblow: the last bastion of stubborn resistence essentially breached? Certainly I think there are plenty of people who will soldier on, just as they have in the face of overwhelming evidence for evolution. But it would, I believe, knock most of the popular wind out of the movement.

Furthermore, a majority of religious believers credit their beliefs to the idea that life, and the world, were designed: HAD to be designed. Could a breakthrough in abiogenesis, demonstrating that this sense of “necessity” is essentially empty, deal the same sort of serious blow to the unbiquity of religious belief that Darwin’s theory did in the first place? Certianly it wouldn’t threaten the faiths of people like Kenneth Miller: theists who have no real problem with either evolution or abiogenesis and who’s god is, essentially, much bigger and more “natural law” based than Biblically literalist-based. And like the Catholic Church fairly quickly accomodated evolution, it is certainly possible that the ever adaptable major religions will find ways, perhaps even easily and without much theological discomfort, to take themselves out of conflict with the idea of a spontaneous natural origin for life. But again, just as Darwin made it, as Dawkins noted, viable to be an intellectually satisfied atheist, taking out one of the claimed necessities behind creator beliefs would undoubtedly radically alter religious belief in the world.

You’re missing the whole point of pseudoscience, and why it serves its adherents so well. Recall Popper’s conversation with Adler who, when asked by Popper how he could comment on a case he’d never seen and be so sure that his theories applied, responded, “Because of my thousand-fold experience.” (Popper replied, “And I suppose this makes your experience a thousand-and-one-fold.”)

Even if you created life in a laboratory from charcoal, it would fit right nicely into the claim that God’s design/creation/whatever was perfectly executed. It was by His hand that an earth that could spawn life was made. And the fact that you yourself intervened to make life happen serves merely to prove that originally, an intelligent designer — much like yourself — must have intervened.

No, these discoveries will do nothing to dissuade the creationists.

On one hand, I agree. On the other hand, before Darwin, the prevailing theories on race on this planet were: either God created black people inferior as is, or he just created white people and black people are what happens when the white race “decays” over time. Now, for the first time in human history, race is no longer generally considered to have any serious meaning in terms of “rank.” My point is essentially that major discoveries like this, while they may not convince the truly dogmatic (like AiG who basically believe that where scripture and evidence disagree, the evidence should immediately be rejected), but in terms of popular perception, I think it would have a huge impact.

Let’s not forget that the modern flavors of fundamentalism are themselves in many ways a defensive REACTION to the scientific revolution in the last century: when power is widely seen to be measured in precision and exactitude, how better to defend and empower the Bible in this modern age than to view it as a strictly literal account of perfect precision and accuracy? In the past, minor reivisions to basic stories in the Bible were made and accepted as a matter of course without a sense that this threatened God’s word in any serious way. Complaints by excitable weirdo’s like Paine could be largely pass ignored by most people. But when the entire account of genesis looked to be a real stretch, a backlash into full literal, infaliable interpretation was one obvious response.

Creationists are not all nutcases (especially not the run of the mill people who don’t make advocating creationism a life’s work), incapable of reason or convincing. They are generally people with very sincerely, passionately held beliefs. Some have very complex objections to evolution that can’t be written off as bullheadedness: they are at least thoughtful enough to sound convincing and reasonable.

And up till now, “man from molecules” has served as a bulwark against the way that the findings of science might challenge particularist theologies. But what would happen if that bulwark fell apart? Darwin’s discovery, as well as other findings like the age of the earth, radically altered the landscape of theology (and not even as directly as only affecting natural theologies), and I think major advances in abiogenesis might well do the same. It also, to put it bluntly, might have the same sort of negative impact on religious belief as Darwin’s revolution did.

And while everyone here knows that evolution and abiogenesis are not the same things, and neither rests upon then other, evolution isn’t quite as powerful as evolution + abiogenesis. Being able to tell the story of life but having to skip the beginning isn’t anywhere near as compelling as being able to tell the whole story.

It might shake the faith of a few, but science will never have complete knowledge, and my guess is that creationists (or whatever you want to calll them) will simply fall back on God to fill a gap further back in the chain. Maybe God didn’t directly create life, but He created the Big Bang, which set the gears in motion.

Besides, I’m not sure the creationists argument rests on the tenet that God, and only God, can create life. Rather, it rests on the tenet that God created us (or what led to us) and that God gave us a soul.

Here’s a joke I read a while back: A delegation of scientists calls on God and tells him he should retire. “We can do everything for ourselves now, even create life. We’ll provide, we’ll have a man-making contest.” God says, “All right, but I’m old-fashioned. We’ll both have to do it the old-fashioned way, starting with nothing but dirt. Agreed?” The scientists huddle for a moment, then one says, “All right, I think we can manage that,” and bends down to scoop up a handful of dirt. God says, “Oh, no! You have to get your own dirt!”

Sorry, I meant, “We’ll prove it, we’ll have a man-making contest.”

BG: You really need to get out more… :slight_smile:

I’ve already seen the response to this hypothetical. It is: see that just proves that you need intelligent intervention to create life. It can’t happen by itself. They won’t be happy unless you mix up some chemicals, wait a few thousand years, and see life pop out by itself.

I doubt it would do anything to dissuade any ID or creationist. Would science failing to prove AB make you believe in ID? No, of course not. You just simply change your theory based on facts you believe.

I think you’re missing the point of what I’m saying. I’m not saying that religion is simply going to evaporate. But rather that it could drive some pretty significant social changes, and changes in the character and makeup of the religious, just as the original Darwinian synthesis did. For instance, read what you just said again. What is the position that you have creationists “falling back” to? It’s basically deism! Now, if many more people “fell back” to that position, wouldn’t that represent a pretty significant development in social/religious history?

That latter is more in-line with what many Catholics believe, and is what I refferred to when I noted that there are many theists for whom this maybe wouldn’t change that much (though, I dunno). Creationists tend to be Biblical literalists who are, obviously, wedded theologically to the creation story in genesis. For them, falling back to that more deistic line of interpretation would represent a pretty significant change in priorities.

Well, that is what they say now. And right now, what they say is basically true: we can’t present even a general overview (well other than a REALLY general one) of how life would spontaneously arise. We can, sort of, create life, but its not in a natural setting, and it really does take human ingenuity or special situations (like with Speigelman’s monster). What I’m talking about is less the demonstration of life creation, and more the ability to trace one or more plausible pathways right from the likely environmental conditions of the early earth to functioning replicators with true heredity.

If what you say is true, then the fact that so many people are evolutionists today must represent a miracle. After all, major new discoveries about life’s origins have no effect on people’s thinking about life’s origins.

You must never have come up against a bull moose creationist. (They’re scarce in these parts.) I agree with you totally, of course, but if they could see that what you said was reasonable, most wouldn’t be creationists in the first place. (I’m trying to stay nice so that Bricker doesn’t come around to berate me for insulting the poor dears.

I see what you’re saying, and my post was not well worded. I used the term “creationists” to mean young earth creationists. That was an error. The ones who need to be convinced are the latter.

Suppose scientists create “life*” in the lab. The Y.E. Creationists will simply say: “Make that thing you call “life” evolved into a human, and then we’ll talk. Until then, I’m still gonna believe in Adam and Eve. And, btw, your work is the work of the devil.” Anyone who believes in creationism along the lines of Adam and Eve isn’t going to be swayed by science. They know the truth, and they’re not open to questioning it. In fact, the very act of questioning it can be considered sinful.

*and keep in mind that this “life” almost certainly will be something simpler even than an amoeba, or some other single-celled organism.

Your premise rests on another point, which I am tiresome enough to question: that life as we know it originated on Earth. As a registered crackpot, I am licensed to hold another view entire, that life may very well have drifted onto a sterile but fertile earth on dust and debris from a lively cosmos.

My main point: the needed time. Recent discoverys have pushed back the existence of life on Earth to a very early point indeed, leaving but a scant billion years or so for this miraculous accident to have occured.

Imagine, if you will, that we posses a galactic scale tumbler, the kind used by rock hounds to polish rocks. In it we pour a huge collection of nuts, bolts, random screws and tubing, plus the entire inventory of Radio Shack parts multiplied a million fold. We set the tumbler in motion, causing any number of random collissions, some of which cause various parts to fit together. At some point in time, a self-replicating robot will be created. Given enough time.

I don’t think enough time is alloted in the Earth Genesis scenario, barring a miracle that might as well be God. But if we allow an Earth cooling to the appropriate temperature, etc., like a sterile petri dish supplied with all the ingredients to support life, but without the crucial element of DNA-based life form, then life can “hit the ground running”, so to speak.

Note as well another attractive element to this scenario: that life abounds, that it is likely based on the same DNA that we are based upon. That we can meet other life forms very similar to ourselves. And we can eat them.

[Captain Kirk] And after I eat them, I can shtup them in other ways too. [/Captain Kirk]

Not a crack-pot theory at all, but one that has been floated by a number of scientist.

Remembered this experiment from last year:

Spontaneous Formation of Cellular Chemical System that Sustains Itself Far from Thermodynamic Equilibrium (Doc file).

Photo here

Maybe Bricker does need to come in here, because I don’t think you are giving people enough credit. I think people, even the very hardcore-line of YECs (which represent a HUGE portion of people in the US by the way!), would definately be shaken and take seriously a major new development showing that the abiogenesis of life is a possible and indeed predictable consequence of the early earth conditions. And I say this with assurity because it happened before: Darwin’s theory of origins was deeply disoncerting to many many Christians… but many of them, and especially their children, changed their minds after seeing the evidence. Right now, at least in America, we’re dealing with a stagnation in this sort of movement: those who believe evolution is bupkiss believe it, and there have been no major NEW sorts of revolutions which are interesting enough to shake that. But major advances in abiogenesis WOULD be such a development.

I doubt that any new advances will sway either a hard-core YEC or a determined IDer. I am at a loss as to why either survives today, to be honest.

Creationists will always hold to their metaphysic: God was directly responsible, in some way, for the Creation of Life. Such can never be disproved by science. As long as they adhere to a literal interpretation of Genesis, all the scientific evidence in the world is for naught.

IDers are similar, but have less of a leg to stand on, in my opinion. As they purport to use science to verify the existence (and necessity) of an Intelligent Designer, the more scientific evidence that is built up which demonstrates that intelligence is not a necessary prerequisite, the more their own position falls apart. Their philosophy, then, lives in the “unknowns” - anywhere scientific understanding is lacking, they can claim agency. As there will likely always be unknowns, or at least complexity which defies “easy” explanations, they will always have something to point to as “evidence” for their position. But their explanation begins to look more and more ad hoc as time goes by, relegating them further to the sidelines with each new discovery or insight.

I suspect, then, that ID would more readily fall by the wayside than will YEC. YECs can at least ignore scientific discoveries as “irrelevant to their faith”, while IDers can’t.

Most of the theories of abiogenesis now in play don’t require anywhere near the amount of time left to play with (not to mention that the timeline of early life, despite any “recent discoveries” is still pretty much speculative)

Sounds like a 747 out of a hurricane to me. But this ISN’T what abiogenetic theories are like, in fact. Their primary interest is not in chance + time, but in chemical catalysis.

I would put the likihood of space debris from an actual other planet that was capable of supporting life actually hitting the Earth to be at an even lower probability than your rock tumbler scenario. It’s certainly not crackpot, but it’s also not very likely. Or, probably, necessary.