RO/RO Ferries - do you worry about riding one?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Another RO/RO (Roll On/Roll Off) ferry has sunk overnight. If you’ve not seen the news, here’s a link to CNN’s story.

Obviously there’s very little that can be said definitively now about the cause of the disaster. If the preliminary reports are accurate, however, the death toll is going to be greater than when the Estonia went down. However, the cause of the sinking of both Estonia and Herald of Free Enterprise were both similar in that when the bow shield of the ship involved became unsecured in poor weather the vehicle decks flooded, the ship lost stability, then capsized and sank in very short order. It’s not unreasonable, given the weather reports from last nght to wonder if that might have been involved in this incident, too.

Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any other RO/RO ferries that have gone down, but the linked article has this quote:

Of course, according to the wiki article I’d linked, only three RO/RO ships are shown to have sunk. Considering the number of such vessels in service, I’d be hard pressed to feel it is a high risk design.

So Dopers, do you, or would you, have reservations about riding a RO/RO ferry?

2

The only ones I have ridden have been in the Puget Sound in Washington State, but I’ve ridden those hundreds and hundreds of times, both from downtown Seattle to Bainbridge Island and from Anecortes to and among the San Juan Islands. And for the record, the Puget Sound (and the Straits of Juan de Fuca) are some of the most hazardous waters to navigate in the world, due to the tides and number of sunken reefs.

Anyway, I’ve always felt perfectly safe. The routes are well-established, and the waves very rarely get high. Severe weather is also rare in any event. Life jackets are stowed under every bench, and land is always in sight. All in all, I’ve never felt in danger at all, but then again, something you’ve been doing your whole life just doesn’t feel dangerous anyway.

3

I’ve riden on the ferries between NY and VT across Lake Champlain dozens of times, and tey always felt safe to me. I think the big problem here is the staff loading them up to their peak capacity (or close to it) in bad weather. If the weather is bad and/or the water is rough, then the crew should take care to load the ferry well below it’s limit to be safe.

4

Same here, plus the Canadian ferries between Tswassen and Vancouver to Vancouver Island; only not as many times as Beadalin since I’ve only been here a couple of years and don’t have anyone to go places with. At any rate, I’ve always felt perfectly safe on the ferries.

I didn’t read the article or go to the RO/RO link, but it sounds as if the sinkings mentioned involved ferries with bows that open. The local ferries here don’t have those. The vehicle decks are open at the bows and stern.

5

I thought immediately of The Herald of Free Enterprise sinking in 1987, blamed on an unclosed bow when the ship left Zeebrugge.

There’s a conspiracy theory industry about the similar sinking of the Estonia in 1994.

6

This particular one may have had stability issues, it had a number of extra decks added, and in turn it had hull modifications to make it wider in the water(I’m not yet sure if the extra width was abailable as load space or just flotation tanks)

The thing still had some stability issues after the correction work was carried out.

The main problem with RORO ferries is that there does not seem to be any steady sinking rate, once significant amounts of water enter the single large through carrying deck, disaster strikes in seconds, and the things turn turtle.

The striking thing about RORO disasters is the lack of distress calls, such is the rapidity of sinking.

They may seem safe due to their size but this is deceptive in the extreme, if it goes wrong, it’ll go wrong quickly.

A few of these things have turned over in the far East and death tolls have been very high.

Its one of those things where, perhaps you feel secure because they don’t seem to go down very often, but that has to be balanced by the fact that when it does, if you’re on one, you haven’t much hope.(Do a search and you’ll be disturbed to find out just how common these sinkings actually are)

The only reason that the Herald of Free Enterprise did not take more lives was that the water was not deep enough for it to go right over.

The single, uncompartmentalised design which is central to the fast turnaround of the RORO is always going to be a serious danger, the most vulnerable areas such as the loading doors can be made more secure with more failsafes, but it can never be designed to be safe.

Generally, the more individual compartments and watertight sections you have, the less likely a ship will sink, the most obvious examples of this are warships, and in peacetime its worth noting that the larger the spaces as a percentage of size of vessel, the more likely it’ll be ringing the Lutine Bell.

Think along the lines of Ella Fitzgerald, or any other vessel divided into large compartments, and RORO’s are very possibly the absolute worst example, because its down to just one huge hold, along with a high passenger density, huge loss of life is guarunteed.

7

The large ocean-going RO/RO ferrys do have a perception of being unstable, so much so that some have proposed design changes to make them safer. Here’s one such proposal.

Smaller ferrys like this one (and the only type I’ve ever been on) shouldn’t have any problem.

8

P.S. Here are some photos of the WA State Ferries. So cool!
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/dynamic_rotator/

9

Well, maybe you could say Ella had a pair of pontoons up high, when she got older and put on weight, but it’s ungracious to one of the greatest jazz singers ever. :slight_smile:

I suspect you’re thinking of the *Edmund * Fitzgerald.

10

RO/RO RO your boat…

(sorry… really, I am…)

11

Yep, I worry about it. In Thailand, in The Philippines, in The Channel. Still I do like boats.

12

Yes, I worry about it. I don’t like being on them (always has been on the Channel or the Irish Sea) one bit.

13

I’m surprised - but then, I’ve also always ridden the WA State & BC Ferries.

It just doesn’t seem like you’re trapped - even if it goes down fast (and ferries feel stable, so that may belie their real safety level) there are lifejackets everywhere and doors everywhere and open spaces all over the place. Even if I don’t make it to land, I’ve never been worried that I wouldn’t make it at least off the boat.

Anyway, no. I don’t worry. I take them frequently. Not as much as I would like. Ferries are fun.

14

Don’t be fooled by the doors, lifejackets and other safety measures, these are a legal requirement but serve only to reassure passengers, your safety on RoRo’s is almost completely dependant upon the captain and crew, there is almost nothing that you can do for yourself on these types of vessel, once disaster strikes its a lottery and the odds are highly stacked against you.

It is testament to the professionalism of the crews that have not been more disasters, especially when you consider that many of these operate in crowded shipping lanes.

Herald of Free Enterprise went down just after loading and only a couple of hundred yards away from the dock.

Most folk were therefore fairly awake and aware and it had around 600-700 folk on board, far less than this ferry, so you could hardly say it was overcrowded and escape routes were reasonably clear, plus quite a number were on the upper decks looking around at Zeebrugge.

The fact that it was so close to the harbour meant rescue was on hand almost as soon as it sank, and since it was a cold night, that was crucial, people were picked up suffering from the effects of cold having spent less than 15 minutes in the water.

Herald sunk in less than 90 seconds, killing very nearly 200, and that was just turning on its side.

Think about what it must have been to be a passenger, the boat slopes on one direction a bit, and slops back the other way, but this time its not coming back up again, by the time you realise that, yes, there is something wrong, the time to get to safety has gone, its already too late.

Most of the passengers probably did not genuinely realise it was going down until the last 30 seconds or so, and by then escape would be very difficult with heavily sloping decks, stuff sliding around and becoming obstacles etc, particularly the vehicle deck.

If it had just been a few hundred yards further out, it would have turned over completely, the death toll would certainly been higher, I would have expected that at least 400 would have died, but sadly its more probably that this is a rather low wild assed guess.

These things are deceptive, they are the most dangerous ships afloat, as any significant ingress of water is highly likely to lead to large loss of life, your time between the start of an incident and getting out safely is about as low as it is possible for it to be for any similar sized vessel.

Some of these ferries are not stricly speaking RoRo as they only have one loading door, but the large single uncompartmented deck, is the feature that makes them inehently more dangerous.

Would I use one ? Yup, the odds of one sinking are very small, but if it does go, the chances of surviving are small also.

15

CasDave has hit on the problem with these RO/RO designs. By having a large, unbaffled compartment near the waterline, once that starts taking on large amounts of water it can set up what’s known on as a free surface effect, making the vessel unstable in very short order, and causing it to capsize.

Once a vessel is on its beam, or upside down, while there are plenty of egress - getting to them will be well-nigh impossible. First, the passengers will be disoriented simply because most of the lighting will have gone out and they’re not all that familiar with the deckplan of the vessel. Add to that the risk posed by cabins and such acting as holes, without simple exits, and the chance of getting out of one of these vessels before running out of air is very low.

And, no - I don’t really think that they’re an unsafe design. When operated by a competent crew, I’m not going to feel unsafe on one. I’ve ridden the Cape May-Lewes Ferry numerous times, and never felt at risk.

The suggestions on the article linked by Lute Skywatcher seem a good idea. Whether they’ll be acceptable to the marketplace is another question.

16

Here is a way of illustrating the free surface effect for yourself.

Get yourself one of those extra large plastic bottles of coca cola, and whilst its full, hold it outstretched in your hand at one end ot the bottle and roll it slowly from side to side.

You’ll find that while it may be uncomfortable after a while, you can pretty much control the movement.

Now take the same bottle, but now only half full, tilt this from side to side, as your arm gets tired, the fluid slopping about will cause you to let it suddenly tip to the vertical, try then getting it level is not as easy either.

Its the fact that the liquid inside can gain kinetic energy that makes the free surface effect so dangerous in ships. Added to this is that it will also increase the centre of gravity too.

The amount of water to turn a ship over is small compared to the amount of water that would load it up so heavily that it sinks.

The large single compartment on such ferries is what allows free surface water to build up momentum, and when it reaches the sides that energy has to be dissipated, causing it to tilt.

What you get is an oscillation effect, however this reinforces itself on every side to side motion, it usually only takes two traverses, and the first loll is often not all that great either, and doesn’t therefore show the gravity of the situation.

This is what makes RoRos inherently dangerous in an incident.

17

It seems there was a fire on board which led to the sinking.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4680752.stm

The big problem with fires on ships is that water is pumped in to try and cool the bulkheads and prevent the fire spreading through heat conduction, this is called boundary cooling.

This in turn means you get a build up of water well above the centre of gravity, free surface water, the higher up in the vessel it is, the more dangerous.

If this water was in the main vehicle deck, then it would have been a serious risk.

I remember quite some years ago a Royal Navy destroyer, HMS Bristol had a serious engine room fire, and boundary cooling was used.

The water on the decks above the engine room was boiling.

The use of boundary cooling was not well supervised or controlled, as a result fire hoses were left spraying continuously, instead of being used to coll a bulkhead, turned off and employed again once the temeratures had risen.

The ship was very nearly lost as it lolled dangerously to one side, it took the initiative of one of the senior officers to get the crew on deck to counter themovement by making them move from one side to the other en masse, its probably the only thing that saved the ship that night.

Any vessel would be at risk from this means of capsizing, however RoRo ferries are far more likely to turn over because of their design.

18

I didn’t, until I read this thread. Thanks a lot.

:wink:

By the way, are there any car ferries that aren’t RO/RO? I always thought “car ferry” pretty much implied you can drive a car right into the ship.

19

Actually, I was thinking of the sinking of the SS Normandie, when I heard the news about the fire on the ferry. Other examples of the things that can happen when people fight shipboard fires with more vigor than sense include the USS Forrestal fire, where at one point the crew had a multi-megaton supercarrier at a 15 degree list, IIRC, because of the excess of water brought on board.

What I am now curious about, and want to hear the answers to, is: why, if there’d been a fire onboard for hours before the ship went down, hadn’t the passengers been mustered at abandon ship stations to be ready to go to the lifeboats, while wearing PFDs?

I’m very afraid that the story may turn out to be a reenacting of the SS Morro Castle affair. Or the Oceanus sinking. Where the crew basically left the passengers on their own.

I doubt that’s the going to be the case here. (Especially not a repeat of what happened with the Oceanus, where the crew abandoned ship, while most of the passengers were still onboard.) What I do wonder is if someone made the decision to keep the passengers in the dark about the fire, to prevent panic. It’s a hard decision to make - fire is scary, and fire aboard ship is doubly so, since you can’t simply leave the building to escape the hazard. But, with all the hazards casdave has mentioned with respect to shipboard firefighting, you have to wonder why no one considered that having the passengers out of the way, and in a position to abandon ship, if necessary, wouldn’t make sense.

20

I grew up riding the Shelter Island Ferry (North Ferry) on eastern Long Island and, to a lesser degree, the South Ferry and the Orient-New London Ferry. I have no problem with them: the ships are safe, assuming you don’t get big waves (and you don’t get them for Shelter Island or the South Ferry.) AFAIK, neither of these two have had any fatalities.

New London has had two: a couple of years ago, someone in a semi either had it running before he was supposed to, or there was a problem with the chocks. He rolled off the deck and into the water and drowned.

The other was a few months ago. Someone trying to escape the police tried to drive onto the ferry and landed in the water.

Still, all boats were safe enough. The Shelter Island and South Ferry were very wide boats (compared to their length). They’re three cars wide and maybe six car lengths long. Because they’re wide and flat, they’re very stable. Also it’s a short run (10-15 minutes), plus the ships have an open deck plan. Water may slosh over the front, but it’d just get the cars wet and will drain out rather than go into the hold.

The New London Ferry is more like the one in Egypt: longer than wide, and much bigger. Since it’s a longer ride, people leave their cars and go into the cabin. Long Island sound can get pretty rough, but the trip is just over an hour, so everyone is awake in case there is danger, and there are lifeboats and lifejackets everywhere.

I’ve also used the Port Jefferson Ferry, the Staten Island Ferry, and one of the Lake Champlain ferries.

I’d have no problem using any of them again.