Straight Dope Message Board

[No Wikipedia Cites]

Ok, hopefully I can avoid the ban on personal medical advice, I am asking about the science of anatomy here, and a chance to debunk yet another 'home remedy', not for any diagnosis or treatment.

Word on the street is that downing a mixture of Olive Oil & Lemon juice will both partially dissolve (by the acid in the lemon) a Kidney Stone, and lubricate the passage between the kidney and the bladder.

There are tons of internet pages with successful anecdotes about how effective this 'home remedy' is.

I had kidney stones not that long ago and my husand came across this mixture- it was pure magic! I was able to pass mine with a few hours of drinking it. Works great (if you can keep it down!) 5*

Someone also dissed it though:

Let's look at this remedy logically for a second. The kidneys filter the bloodstream and olive oil does not pass from the digestive system to the bloodstream to lubricate anything. The same goes for the lemon juice. The only thing that works is lots of fluids and time.

Sadly this merely reminded me of my ignorance of human anatomy. I have no idea how it really works.

MD Dopers: So what is true? Does what you drink, like Olive oil, have any effect on 'lubing' your urinary track? What about the lemon juice acidifying your urine -- is that true? If the Kidneys just filter blood, where is the actual urine coming from? How could it not pass through them?

(I realize that if it worked doctors would be prescribing it, but if it's just a placebo, why so many internet postings?)

[Shagnasty]

I have never heard that for kidney cleansing but I have for liver and colon cleansing. I tried it my self once as a skeptic. I have no idea what it did or if it worked or not but what came out the next morning was not olive oil or lemon juice. I can say that I did feel a little better and it didn't hurt anything.

[Shmendrik]

Originally Posted by sassyfras

Ok, hopefully I can avoid the ban on personal medical advice, I am asking about the science of anatomy here, and a chance to debunk yet another 'home remedy', not for any diagnosis or treatment.

Word on the street is that downing a mixture of Olive Oil & Lemon juice will both partially dissolve (by the acid in the lemon) a Kidney Stone, and lubricate the passage between the kidney and the bladder.

There are tons of internet pages with successful anecdotes about how effective this 'home remedy' is.

I had kidney stones not that long ago and my husand came across this mixture- it was pure magic! I was able to pass mine with a few hours of drinking it. Works great (if you can keep it down!) 5*

Someone also dissed it though:

Let's look at this remedy logically for a second. The kidneys filter the bloodstream and olive oil does not pass from the digestive system to the bloodstream to lubricate anything. The same goes for the lemon juice. The only thing that works is lots of fluids and time.

Sadly this merely reminded me of my ignorance of human anatomy. I have no idea how it really works.

MD Dopers: So what is true? Does what you drink, like Olive oil, have any effect on 'lubing' your urinary track? What about the lemon juice acidifying your urine -- is that true? If the Kidneys just filter blood, where is the actual urine coming from? How could it not pass through them?

(I realize that if it worked doctors would be prescribing it, but if it's just a placebo, why so many internet postings?)

I agree about the olive oil. It does make its way to the bloodstream but lipids are not filtered by the kidneys, so it shouldn't have any effect.

[Nametag]

This looks like a variation on Hulda Clark's "liver cleanse," which also requires Epsom salt. It's basically a formula that precipitates bile in the digestive tract, producing fatty lumps which the "therapist" then tells the victim patient are "soft gallstones."

I can't even imagine how its supposed to work on kidney stones.

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by Nametag

This looks like a variation on Hulda Clark's "liver cleanse," which also requires Epsom salt.

Is this the same Hulda Clark who claimed she could cure any cancer with naturopathic treatment? The same one who claimed to cure AIDS naturopathically? The same Hulda Clark who died in 2009 of. . .cancer?

Hulda Clark

[needscoffee]

Sadly this merely reminded me of my ignorance of human anatomy.

Nitpick: It's not anatomy that you're asking about, but physiology.

[TruCelt]

When I had kidney stones any acidic drink made the pain much worse, and made me pee more often, thereby lowering the volume (and maybe also the pressure?) of the flow. It also amde any smll scratches (of which you'll get many in the process) burn like fire.

The best thing was to drink lots of plain water, with an occasional dose of gatorade for electrolytes. Plain water would build up in larger quantities making the trip from bladder to toilet much less painful. I donoubt it affected the kidney to bladder journey much.

[Gagundathar]

This sounds like a fairly easy treatment to test in a methodical manner.
I genuinely can't believe that such a study has not yet been performed with the results readily available if such a study showed the efficacy of the treatment.

[Taenia spp.]

Wow...I thought I've read a lot of crazy diet/health stuff before, but this is an interesting new variant.

As to the oil: absolutely absolutely not. As mentioned before, the kidneys only have access to the bloodstream, not the gut, so any of this oil/acid mixture would have to be present in the bloodstream for it to conceivably work. However, oils and fats are NEVER found free in the bloodstream; it's all too easy for them to oxidize which can then in turn damage cellular membranes which as you can imagine is a very bad thing. They are instead carried in these large lipid-protein complexes ('lipoproteins') you may have heard as LDL ('bad' cholesterol) or HDL ('good' cholesterol). What's the point of me saying all this? These lipoproteins are far too large to be filtered out by the kidneys, and what's more the body tightly regulates the transport of these particles. To wit: Oils/fats will never be found in your urinary system (and if it is you've got a problem)

To the acid: I have no idea.

[ToeJam]

For what it's worth, acidifying your urine or alkalizing your urine is a valid medical technique done by health-care professionals via medications and such, and it is used to help with excretion of actual toxins or drugs in the body. Weak Acids will be trapped in the urine if you can alkalize the urine, and weak bases are trapped if you can acidify the urine. This is used as a method of treating certain drug overdoses. As always though, these sorts of decisions should be done by a health-care professional- so don't just assume you can try to OD on your aspirin and try to figure out how to treat yourself. Go to the doctor for that sorta stuff.

When it comes to Kidney stones- well it varies. Here's the problem- there are multiple different types of kidney stones made up of different crystals and such- different types of calcium stones, uric acid stones, struvite stones, and cysteine stones. For some of them, they are caused by having a buildup in your bladder/urine- and they can be precipitated out and turn into stones- so that's an example where acidifying your urine would CAUSE certain kidney stones, and in other causes, alkalizing your urine would cause another type of stone. Each of the stones have various risk factors for them, genetic and environmental.

So again- I HIGHLY don't recommend just going out and trying to acidify your urine just because you think you may have a kidney stone. Always go to your doctor if you are worried about such things, and let them work it up- because some stones the acid may help, but for others it may simply just worsen the problem, and you don't really know what stones you've got until you go to the doctor and get some imaging studies and labs done. Once you've gotten your diagnosis, then feel free to ask your doctor about such advice, but it's REALLY not a good idea to just try to self-diagnose and assume you've got a specific type of stone, and then also to assume that the best treatment for it is to self-treat.

So while the idea has merit, it's also got drawbacks in that it can help some problems while worsening others. Best option- go to the doctor first, check it out, and then ask him if some other remedies may help (which is why you have some people who go out and buy the Cranberry juice to help decrease their chances of a specific TYPE of stone, it won't help against all types of stones). Same with Orange juice- may help against a specific TYPE of stone, but not the same one as cranberry juice.

The best thing you can do to try to prevent Kidney stones is staying hydrated, and drinking plenty of water is probably the best overall general prophylactic treatment vs. trying these specific "cures" and "home remedies" which though it may help some people could invariable hurt others with a different condition.

[Manduck]

This thread is giving me a craving for greek salad.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by sassyfras

(I realize that if it worked doctors would be prescribing it, but if it's just a placebo, why so many internet postings?)

Because IT"S THE INTERNET!

Seriously, think about what you just said.

[Manduck]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

Because IT"S THE INTERNET!

Seriously, think about what you just said.

A lady on the internet cured her son's swine flu by putting him to bed with onion in his socks.

[Hilarity N. Suze]

I remember seeing something in a health food store touted as "Promotes Healthy Kidneys." I think it was some kind of cranberry pill (but I could be wrong).

Which reminds me. There used to be this remedy (as seen on TV!!!) called Carters Little Liver Pills. I don't recall that the TV ads ever said what they were supposed to cure. I guess you were just supposed to know that.

Well, I had no idea then, and none now (although you never see Carters Little Liver Pills anymore, or at least, I never have, and the ads are long gone). So what were people buying them for?

[Wendell Wagner]

Here's some information about Carter's Little Liver Pills:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisacodyl

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by Nametag

This looks like a variation on Hulda Clark's "liver cleanse," which also requires Epsom salt. It's basically a formula that precipitates bile in the digestive tract, producing fatty lumps which the "therapist" then tells the victim patient are "soft gallstones."

This is a popular alt med/Internet "cure". The person who swills down the olive oil mixture eventually poops out lumpy stuff that's supposed to be gallstones, but is just precipitated fat. Presumably if you're gullible enough (and not too smart about anatomy) you can be convinced that it's kidney stones too.

This stuff does not cause you to pass actual kidney stones. As to why there are so many positive testimonials, the reasons include cases where people had pain but no actual kidney stones, (the pain goes away, the "cure" gets credit), or someone passes stones and gives the worthless remedy credit. The people who got no relief from the remedy figure they were doing it wrong or that it might work some other time, and they don't post on the Internet.

[HorseloverFat]

Honestly, if eating a lot of greek cooking could do this, do you really think doctors wouldn't advise it all the time? I hate the conspiratorial nature of medical quackery.

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by HorseloverFat

I hate the conspiratorial nature of medical quackery.

You just don't want us to know the secrets of good health.

[Elysium]

It this were true I could make millions selling the hummus I made last night.

Mmm... hummus.

[kayT]

I know someone who was given vegetable oil to drink by her doctor to get rid of stones, I thought kidney but possibly gallstones. This was about 20 years ago; was this accepted then and not now? She said it was horrible trying to keep the oil down but she did get rid of the stones, she said.(?) IIRC, she was going to Kaiser for her health care and they're pretty mainstream.

[Yllaria]

Originally Posted by kayT

I know someone who was given vegetable oil to drink by her doctor to get rid of stones, I thought kidney but possibly gallstones. This was about 20 years ago; was this accepted then and not now? She said it was horrible trying to keep the oil down but she did get rid of the stones, she said.(?) IIRC, she was going to Kaiser for her health care and they're pretty mainstream.

Was the vegetable oil a one time thing? The reason I ask is that when I had gallstones, I had to get an x-ray to confirm. There was fasting. There was an industrial strength laxative. Then, the morning of the x-ray, I was told that if they didn't get a clear image, I'd have to drink a cup of cream and then they'd take another shot.

I guessed that the lipid in the cream makes the gall bladder contract, which pulls the stones together. Vegetable oil would do the same thing. The gall bladder reacts to the presense of lipids in the stomach. As bad as I felt both from having stones and from the laxative, I was not looking forward to drinking cream. Fortunately, they got a clear image.

I can't imagine any other use for oil with gallstones. If it wasn't associated with the x-ray, the result would be: drink oil - gall bladder contracts on stones - feel great pain.

No clue about oil and kidney stones.

[kayT]

Was the vegetable oil a one time thing?

Yes, it was. Maybe that was what it was for. Makes a lot more sense. Thanks, Yllaria.

[sandeep]

Originally Posted by No Wikipedia Cites

Ok, hopefully I can avoid the ban on personal medical advice, I am asking about the science of anatomy here, and a chance to debunk yet another 'home remedy', not for any diagnosis or treatment.

Word on the street is that downing a mixture of Olive Oil & Lemon juice will both partially dissolve (by the acid in the lemon) a Kidney Stone, and lubricate the passage between the kidney and the bladder.

There are tons of internet pages with successful anecdotes about how effective this 'home remedy' is.

I had kidney stones not that long ago and my husand came across this mixture- it was pure magic! I was able to pass mine with a few hours of drinking it. Works great (if you can keep it down!) 5*

Someone also dissed it though:

Let's look at this remedy logically for a second. The kidneys filter the bloodstream and olive oil does not pass from the digestive system to the bloodstream to lubricate anything. The same goes for the lemon juice. The only thing that works is lots of fluids and time.

Sadly this merely reminded me of my ignorance of human anatomy. I have no idea how it really works.

MD Dopers: So what is true? Does what you drink, like Olive oil, have any effect on 'lubing' your urinary track? What about the lemon juice acidifying your urine -- is that true? If the Kidneys just filter blood, where is the actual urine coming from? How could it not pass through them?

(I realize that if it worked doctors would be prescribing it, but if it's just a placebo, why so many internet postings?)

THE DOCTORS DO NOT WANT TO CHOP OFF THE HAND THAT FEEDS IT !!!!!
Meaning : IF EVERYBODY STARTS SELF MEDICATING , THEN WHAT WILL THEY DO ???? FOR THAT MATTER , WHAT ABOUT THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES ??? IT'S A BIG LOBBY AND THEY WILL NOT ALLOW SUCH A THING TO HAPPEN .
SIMILARLY , THE OIL LOBBY WILL NOT ALLOW US TO RUN OUR VEHICLES ON WATER NOR WILL THEY ENCOURAGE ALTERNATE SOURCE OF ENERGY !!!!
WE HAVE QUITE A FEW CHOICES , BUT THEY WILL MAKE SURE WE " DARE NOT " IMPLEMENT IT !!!!!!!
THE ANCIENT INDIAN SYSTEM OF MEDICINE ( AYURVEDHA & HOMEOPATHY ) HAVE DOCUMENTED THESE THINGS AND IT IS ONLY NOW THAT WORLD IS BECOMING AWARE OF IT !!!!!!!

[EvilTOJ]

Hmmm... zombie thread, brand new username, odd paranoid rantings.

sandeep, move your left pinky to the left about 1" to the left and press down.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Manduck

This thread is giving me a craving for greek salad.

Or hummus.

[Jackmannii]

I am confused about a couple of things - when did homeopathy become part of "the ancient Indian system of medicine" (it was invented by Hahnemann in the U.S. in the 19th century)?

And what's with all the doctors and drug company people who are suppressing the olive oil-lemon-poop-a-big-glob-of-pseudo-stones remedy? Don't they realize they're sacrificing their own health and that of their loved ones by failing to use these wonder cures?

Buncha sociopaths.

[Lestrade]

Hmm, at first I thought sandeep was being sarcastic. Now I'm pretty sure he was serious. Damn Poe's law.

This is why we need smileys, people.

[zoid]

Originally Posted by Lestrade

Hmm, at first I thought sandeep was being sarcastic. Now I'm pretty sure he was serious. Damn Poe's law.

This is why we need smileys, people.

Yeah my first thought was "Good one! " , but then just out of curiosity I looked up his posting history and I know you'll be shocked to learn this is his one and only post.

[zoid]

Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner

Here's some information about Carter's Little Liver Pills:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisacodyl

OK I just read that wikipedia article:

If taken in the afternoon or early evening, the action of this drug will start during sleep with undesirable results. If taken at the maximum dosage, there will likely be a sudden, extremely powerful, uncontrollable bowel movement and so precautions should be taken.

and now I HAVE to find some of this stuff.

[The Visitor]

QUOTE OP

"Sadly this merely reminded me of my ignorance of human anatomy. I have no idea how it really works.

MD Dopers: So what is true? Does what you drink, like Olive oil, have any effect on 'lubing' your urinary track? What about the lemon juice acidifying your urine -- is that true? If the Kidneys just filter blood, where is the actual urine coming from? How could it not pass through them?

(I realize that if it worked doctors would be prescribing it, but if it's just a placebo, why so many internet postings?")

Think about what you have just said.

So you are saying drinking Olive Oil doesnt make its way through the body?
Also the citric acid in Lemon Juice doesnt reach the Kidneys?
Sadly our Doctors are trained and are sponsored by Drugs Companies and are not interested in Olive Oil and Lemon Juice.

I have personally used Lemon Juice and it has dissolved the Kidney stones the Doctors failed to spot were causing me numerous Health problems.

Think about it only a small amount of Citric Acid is Required by the Liver the rest is flushed out.
Where does it get flushed out I wonder? The Eyes? The Nose?.... no the Kidneys...yey!

And when I drink too much Olive Oil my Skin gets Oily? I wonder how this happens? Maybe people think it just absorbs like a sponge?

As you Quoted - "Sadly this merely reminded me of my ignorance of human anatomy. I have no idea how it really works. "

IGNORANCE.

[running coach]

If the doctors failed to spot the stones, how did you know they were there?

Lemon juice is digested just like everything else, it won't reach the kidneys in it's original form.

[zoid]

Just out of curiosity let's go check....

Yep - one and only post.

[Szlater]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

(it was invented by Hahnemann in the U.S. in the 19th century)?

Germany, 1792 first practiced, 1796 first published. The US is responsible for a lot of quackery, but you have your hands clean of this shite.

Dammit, Zombie Thread!

[johnpost]

Originally Posted by The Visitor

QUOTE OP

Think about what you have just said.


And when I drink too much Olive Oil my Skin gets Oily? I wonder how this happens? Maybe people think it just absorbs like a sponge?

As you Quoted - "Sadly this merely reminded me of my ignorance of human anatomy. I have no idea how it really works. "

IGNORANCE.

zombie or no

you should sit naked on leather furniture, the oil will be good for it.

[Pine Fresh Scent]

Originally Posted by The Visitor

...blah, blah, blah...

"Doctors hate this mom's secret for treating kidney stones! [CLICK HERE]"

[DrFidelius]

Originally Posted by The Visitor

QUOTE OP

Think about what you have just said.

So you are saying drinking Olive Oil doesnt make its way through the body?
Also the citric acid in Lemon Juice doesnt reach the Kidneys?
Sadly our Doctors are trained and are sponsored by Drugs Companies and are not interested in Olive Oil and Lemon Juice.

I have personally used Lemon Juice and it has dissolved the Kidney stones the Doctors failed to spot were causing me numerous Health problems.

Think about it only a small amount of Citric Acid is Required by the Liver the rest is flushed out.
Where does it get flushed out I wonder? The Eyes? The Nose?.... no the Kidneys...yey!

And when I drink too much Olive Oil my Skin gets Oily? I wonder how this happens? Maybe people think it just absorbs like a sponge?

As you Quoted - "Sadly this merely reminded me of my ignorance of human anatomy. I have no idea how it really works. "

IGNORANCE.

Random capitalization makes Everything more Legitimate.

[Ambivalid]

Originally Posted by DrFidelius

Random capitalization makes Everything more Legitimate.

Every-Thing.

[rsat3acr]

Originally Posted by runner pat

If the doctors failed to spot the stones, how did you know they were there?

Lemon juice is digested just like everything else, it won't reach the kidneys in it's original form.

probably got some of those x-ray glasses they used to sell in pulp mags. Good for spotting zombies too.

[Smeghead]

Oh, FFS

[Exapno Mapcase]

I personally will guarantee that Dr. Exapno's Miracle Elixir will cure 100% of ailments doctors say you don't have! Send your money now. Now! Sooner than now!

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

I personally will guarantee that Dr. Exapno's Miracle Elixir will cure 100% of ailments doctors say you don't have! Send your money now. Now! Sooner than now!

Does it come with a Model-T-style horn to honk?

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by Derleth

Does it come with a Model-T-style horn to honk?

No, with two hard-boiled eggs.

Make that three hard-boiled eggs.

With plenty of olive oil and lemon juice on the side!

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

No, with two hard-boiled eggs.

Make that three hard-boiled eggs.

With plenty of olive oil and lemon juice on the side!

At this rate, we'll have to send up a bigger stateroom.

[Leo Bloom]

Originally Posted by DrFidelius

Random capitalization makes Everything more Legitimate.

Or near-German

[Mangetout]

Originally Posted by The Visitor

QUOTE OP

Think about what you have just said.

So you are saying drinking Olive Oil doesnt make its way through the body?
Also the citric acid in Lemon Juice doesnt reach the Kidneys?
Sadly our Doctors are trained and are sponsored by Drugs Companies and are not interested in Olive Oil and Lemon Juice.

I have personally used Lemon Juice and it has dissolved the Kidney stones the Doctors failed to spot were causing me numerous Health problems.

Think about it only a small amount of Citric Acid is Required by the Liver the rest is flushed out.
Where does it get flushed out I wonder? The Eyes? The Nose?.... no the Kidneys...yey!

And when I drink too much Olive Oil my Skin gets Oily? I wonder how this happens? Maybe people think it just absorbs like a sponge?

As you Quoted - "Sadly this merely reminded me of my ignorance of human anatomy. I have no idea how it really works. "

IGNORANCE.

Total and utter bollocks from beginning to end.

[sdoone]

As someone who has suffered with kidney stones for over 25 years, having passed five and needing lithotripsy for one, I want to weigh in on the olive oil and lemon juice debate. Last weekend I was in sufficient pain to visit the local emergency room, where a CAT scan revealed a 6 mm stone with a 50/50 chance of passing or needing surgery. Before going to the hospital, I downed a shot glass of olive oil and a shot glass of lemon juice in the hopes that it would do some good, as I feel it has done in the past.

On Sunday morning, I painlessly passed the stone . . . so painlessly, in fact, that if it weren't for the fact that the urine stream was momentarily interrupted the way it is when a stone is passing, I wouldn't have even known it. There was some blood in the urine, but no pain. I visited the urologist for follow-up the following day. He was incredulous that I could have passed the stone, and scheduled another follow-up the next Monday (this week). An x-ray an hour before the visit revealed no stone, which convinced him that it had indeed passed.

Whatever the effect of the olive oil and lemon juice "cure," my urologist feels it's purely coincidental but harmless. I, on the other hand, feel that it helped the stone to pass as easily as it did, and I will continue using this treatment the moment I feel a twinge going forward. My x-ray also revealed five stones-in-waiting (three on one side, two on the other), so a once-weekly treatment of olive oil and lemon juice will at least give me the peace of mind I need to get through what I know is coming.

[yoyodyne]

Why didn't you pass the "stones in waiting" too? Not ripe enough? Or does the treatment only work on painful stones?

[smithsb]

Ooooo. Zombie thread, glowing testimonial, first time poster. I'm gonna buy olive oil and lemon juice futures!

[johnpost]

quad zombie or no

if the oil helped the stone pass you would notice an oil slick when you pee.

[silenus]

Ignorance is fighting back.