Ladies help me understand. Do women in general like to be dominated by men or not?

In My Humble Opinion
1

All men know that trying to understand women in general is a fool’s exercise. This is far from a misogynist question however. I thought that I had things down much better than most men because I was raised by a very strong and successful mother as well as being the father of two young daughters. I thought things were heading in the general direction of sex equality and I understand that just fine and want it for my own children.

However, the recent phenomenal success of such works the Twilight Series and The Fifty Shades of Grey have left me confused once again. What primal female desire is driving these? Females are all over it in huge numbers although they are twisted versions of very old fairy tales or even horror stories yet today’s females seem to crave it and are willing to pay for it.

Enough with the commentary. I put this is IMHO rather than Cafe Society for a reason. It isn’t about these specific works.

The question is why would huge numbers of females like to see or read about male domination over female characters after decades of feminist crusades?

2

Yes. No.

3

It’s simply fantasy. One can enjoy something in fiction that would be undesirable in real life.

4

The recent success of “The Hunger Games” means that women want to go on reality TV and kill other people.

The recent success of “The Avengers” means that people want there to be an alien invasion and hope to turn into giant green people when they get angry.

The recent success of iPads means that people want to be expensive and to be made in China by oppressed workers who kill themselves.

5

No such thing as “women in general.” I’m an educated, relatively successful woman, and absolutely abhor the sorts of books you’re describing. That doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate an aggressive man, though.

BUT I don’t think that’s what the woman (girl) who reads this tripe is looking for. She’s looking for what everyone looks for - escapist pulp fiction. She’s looking for her life to be turned upside down by a dark handsome stranger who loves her unconditionally and is willing to do literally anything to have her. She is the sort of girls who thinks she’s missing something because she’s never been pursued by a man. In short, she bought into that Disney crap and, no matter how good and functional her current relationship may be, she believes that their One True Love would be willing to do anything at all - even kidnap her - just to be with her. Because something deviant, dangerous, would show that he REALLY loved her.

It’s all crap, and most women have (I hope) grown out of such ridiculous ideas.

6

I am a bitter longtime bachelor, so take my words with a grain of salt. But it’s my conviction that the average socially-well-adjusted woman doesn’t so much crave being dominated by a man as knowing that a man is capable of dominating somebody. Anybody, man or woman, is more effective, productive, and self-actualized if s/he’s willing to step on a few people in life’s daily battles.

7

one datum point.

I am female, and I have absolutely no interest in either being nor reading about females being dominated. Nor males either, for that matter, even though I have a very dear friend who likes being dominated and I will occasionally accommodate him. I would not seek out a male or female to dominate if I did not have him as a friend.

The first, last and only time that I allowed someone to tie me up, he decided to make me beg to be released to go pee, I refused to beg and pissed the bed. I had 2 very abusive relationships and I refuse to put up with it ever again. [one physical, one mental]

8

Why do you assume the desire is primal? Isn’t it possibly the result of millenia of male dominance which societies are only recently beginning to question? Just because we had the feminist movements of the 20th century doesn’t mean these attitudes are gone.

I think constructions like “today’s females” are just unhelpful. A lot of women find Twilight extremely distasteful for the very reasons you cite. Here’s a blog which specifically targets these troubling trends in YA lit.

9

Why? It’s just as foolish as trying to “understand” any other person. What with women being just like regular people an’ all. “Hath not a [woman] hands,
organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same
food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases,
heal’d by the same means, warm’d and cool’d by the same winter
and summer” - what’s not to get? :confused:

Not misogynist, just sexist in thinking that
a) (all?) women like reading crap
b) women therefor all want to be treated crappily like women in crappy novels

Success amongst 13 year-olds who don’t know any better. Not really the group you want to be looking at in the misguided search for “what women want”.

:rolleyes:

I haven’t a clue. Maybe I should get out a mirror and check if my vagina is still there. Seriously, first time my SO would try some sort of “domination” I’d punch him in the face and leave him that instant. Unfortunately, the world is full of very stupid people who read terrible books. I doubt that means they want to be dominated by men.

(And aruvqan,

That is amazing, seriously. You are so strong.)

10

I think we are all going to agree on couple of points here:

  1. Not all women have the same desires
  2. Lots of females do not like to be subservient to men at all.

Those points are all very well covered on this board and elsewhere. Those go without saying. That isn’t what the question is about however and yet it should be of interest even to the most ardent feminists. The question is, why are so many females finding stories of male domination over them so captivating even if you aren’t among them?

11

Because a broad spectrum of women apparently find it satisfying, or exciting, or comforting simply to know that a man is capable of dominance. (Yes, I repeat myself.)

Those millennia of male dominance John Cazale refers to have obviously come to be understood as a kind of natural law, and it takes an exceptional individual to see outside the paradigm.

12

Absolutely hell no. To me Twilight mania was more about a vampire being the ultimate celebrity boyfriend (rich, powerful, and immortal) than any desire on the part of women to emulate the characters. And I honestly cannot comprehend the appeal of Shades of Grey (or the movie Secretary, etc.) to women. I actually felt ill after watching the last and I have been an eyewitness to murder before.

13

Fair enough, some of the phrasing made me pissy, sorry for the rant. (And I still don’t like the idea of men proudly proclaiming how they “don’t understand women”.)

As to why women like to read crap I don’t know, I don’t know why they would be interested in reading sexist and misogynist tales in which their own gender is oppressed in really bad books. I presume most do not read the narrative that way. So perhaps:

a) they are thick and don’t see the way women are oppressed through the narrative; they just enjoy reading about sparkly vampires

or

b) they do see it and derive pleasure from it because they derive pleasure from the idea of male domination as a sort of sexual fetish; it is fantasy; it is private and has no bearing on their opinions of women’s status in society

or

c) they derive pleasure from the objectification of women because our (visual) culture teaches women to derive pleasure from fiction in that way, they are unaware of the implications; our culture has so continuously forced an ideal of a male-dominated society and female submission that happiness for these women is associated with this model

or

d) they, as so many women, are acting as aides in their own oppression; like women who choose to wear a burqa; (possibly they derive pleasure from seeing a world order they support?)

Just some ideas. But like I said, I think the audiences you are talking about are mainly 13 year-olds. Not really an age group that can be expected to be aware of the implications of what they read, or really read the gender relations in a text in an appropriate way and with regards to social and historical context.

I would agree that, possibly the majority, but certainly an enormous amount of women are complicit in the oppression of women. I don’t think that really relates to actually wanting to be dominated; it seems to me mainly related to ignorance.

14

How many is “so many”? Because while I know the Twilight books have been huge bestsellers, I’d be pretty sure that a majority of the women in the world, or even the women in the US, have never even read them. Since 50 Shades of Grey originated as Twilight fanfiction, I think it’s likely that there’s considerable overlap in their readership. You can’t make generalizations about women based on the relatively small group of women who like these books. Heck, many (I think most) Twilight fans aren’t even grown women, they’re adolescent girls. I suspect that a lot of men would be justifiably offended if I started trying to generalize about what men are like based on the content of some stupid movie or video game that is popular with adolescent boys.

As much as I dislike the Twilight series and its depictions of gender roles, I don’t think fans of the series would say it’s about a man dominating a woman. I don’t know much about Fifty Shades of Grey, but isn’t it about domination in the BDSM sense – that is, a consensual sexual relationship where both parties enjoy playing their role?

15

No, I was pissed off and not putting up with some idiot breaking a promis ['honest, I’ll let you up the instant you want it…":mad:]

Definitely. Tweenie girls are brainwashed to believe in popular fiction to tell them what they want.

My take on Twilight is that Edward is the ultimate ephebophile - wanting the virginal little tween. I have no idea why men still want virgins [well the whole purity crap] I personally want a bit of experience with my lover. Fumbling around looking for the hot spot is boring and a turn off.

16

It totally depends on the person and the context. If you think that I can make blanket statements about women just because I was born with a vagina, you really don’t understand humanity at all.

17

After . . . considerable research into the topic, all I can conclusively say it that some women do like to be dominated, in some ways, by some men, some of the time.

And, so? I mean, it’s a fairly trivial observation, all things considered. What you might miss, from an outsiders perspective, is that there’s little if any correlation between these interests and a submissive outlook in general. If anything, I’ve noted a significant correlation between such interests and intelligence, but that could be a combination of selection and confirmation bias. In any case, I’m fairly certain the march of feminism will not be eroded by the occasional rope harness.

As for entertainment, well, there’s an entire cottage industry based around explaining why Twilight is a horrible blight on humanity in general and the progress of women in particular. Also, how superior those explaining this all are to the stupid pathetic whores who read them. I think this is more than a little over-the-top. While they sound like awful books, a little perspective is in order. Batman and Robin didn’t make kids gay, D&D didn’t turn players into demon-worshiping cultists, Nintendo didn’t turn them into an unstoppable host of super-predators, Barney didn’t turn them into brainwashed fascists, and Pokemon didn’t turn them into slavery-supporting dogfighting fans. And I think Justin Bieber’s success at turning them Canadian has been limited.

Now, just because every other time the over-the-top fears of kid/tween entertainment has turned out to be not just wrong, but in retrospect laughable, doesn’t mean this time it will. Maybe Twilight really will destroy an entire generation’s ability to form healthy relationships with werewolves and (presumably) chupacabra as well. If so, I’ll admit I was wrong.

Anyway, I’ve gotten a little off track. Sure, Twilight probably sucks, and it’s trendy to hate it, but I don’t think that’s a harbinger of the end of feminism and women’s rights.

Try to look at it from another angle. If a straw feminist asked you why, after all these decades of progress, men still think in terms of nothing but power and domination. Now imagine she (or he, no sexist I) and used the popularity of action movies and violent TV shows as evidence of this, how would you respond?

–
I live in a college town. If I had a rope harness for each time I’d heard someone explain how some form of entertainment they didn’t like established personal or moral failings in it’s fans, I’d need some kind of rope harness storage facility.

18

My take on it is that it’s another fad. I mean, Anne Rice started a fad with vampires a few decades ago, and the current fad has swung around to vampires again. Next fad might be angels again, or it might be unicorns, or any of a gazillion things.

The thing to remember is that the people who follow fads are not necessarily the majority of the population. They just happen to talk a lot.

19

Yeah.

For comparison’s sake, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is estimated to have sold about 85 million copies by itself. Why not a thread demanding to know why females like to pop in and out of cupboards where it’s always winter but never Christmas?

20

There are just as many men who are into being dominated by women. Or other men. You can’t generalize about things like this.