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Old 11-20-2016, 04:06 PM
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Are reports of Hillary Clinton throwing tantrums credible?


It's widely (but how truthfully?) reported that Hillary occasionally lets her inner harpy out, and that she did not take losing the election well. Are the sources credible?
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:18 PM
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Do the sources have video of this happening? In this day and age, when everyone has a video camera on their person at all times, if they don't have video, they're not credible.
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:20 PM
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There are number of stories floated over the years and most seem to come from SS Agents assigned to her during the Clinton White house years who say she was very nasty and dismissive if she was not in a good mood or under stress, and given what went down during those times good moods were probably rare.

But ...personally IMO, in looking and listening to her the underlying "vibe" I get is not that genuinely warm or friendly, it's a hungry, focused vibe of someone very smart and controlled trying very hard to seem normal and positive.

Last edited by astro; 11-20-2016 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:23 PM
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It was reported that Hillary was crying inconsolably. This came from an author named Ed Klein who has a lot of connections in Washington and supposedly got the information from a close friend of Hillary. The friend wasn't named. This was also allegedly the reason why John Podesta came out on stage instead of Hillary on election night. Hillary allegedly called her friend and was crying. There's no video or recording of any sort of the conversation.

I guess the credibility here depends on how honest you think Ed Klein is. At best it's a "heard it from someone" type of cite.

There are other reports of Hillary throwing tantrums and getting violent. These stories mostly got their start on unreliable web sites and some have been traced back to intentional trolls. These stories are not credible at all.

Last edited by engineer_comp_geek; 11-20-2016 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:34 PM
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Sounds like the old Breitbart formula:

Find what our side is blatantly guilty of and leak through Trolls that the other side is guilty of it.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:05 PM
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I would not believe anything I hear about either side unless there is "real" proof of it.
If "any " politician did half of what they say they will do, it would be a first.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:16 PM
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[...]she was very nasty and dismissive if she was not in a good mood or under stress[....]
I can be nasty and dismissive to subordinates if I'm not in a good mood or under stress. And so are a lot of people. This does not strike me as the least bit unusual for a person in this type of position.

Now, if she were throwing chairs Bobby Knight style, that would be noteworthy.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:19 PM
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I would not believe anything I hear about either side unless there is "real" proof of it.
If "any " politician did half of what they say they will do, it would be a first.
Serious question: are you equally skeptical when ugly rumors surface about politicians you hate?

ALL of us are tempted to believe the worst of our opponents. We shouldn't be quick to embrace any and all ugly rumors we hear, but when they're targeted at people we hate, we typically do.

The Left eagerly ate up implausible stories about Sarah Palin because they confirmed what liberals wanted to believe. It's no different when conservatives hear stories that Hillary is a bitch.


What's the truth? How would I know? For what little it's worth, the few friends I have who've met Hillary thought she was smart, warm, funny and extremely charming- none understood why she often seems just the opposite on TV.

Last edited by astorian; 11-20-2016 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:27 PM
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I know the son and brother of two of her former Secret Service agents. She is reportedly a hellion that nobody wants to work with behind closed doors at least in that regard but they did the best job they could because they are professionals and would protect anyone if they needed to. The SS never had a high regard for either of the Clintons and the feeling was mutual.

This information is old news and greatly predates this election. My friend and his family have little political regard for any of the ones they protected. However, the general consensus was that the Fords were the best to the SS and staff, the Reagans were genuinely nice people and the Clintons, especially Hillary, were the worst. She was never above trying to play Queen Empress even as First Lady and was known to lash out and even curse common staff just because they were present.

I have met met Bill Clinton and I can't see him lashing out at anyone because he has a very powerful form of slimy charm but Hillary Clinton, not so much.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:28 PM
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I think this is better suited to IMHO.

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Old 11-20-2016, 05:31 PM
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Haven't some actual people that worked for/with/around her come flat out and say these sort of things about her?

Reporters secret "sources" are one thing. Live identifiable people are another. I guess you'd have to decide whether these people would lie to get fame/whatever.

Astro made a point I'd agree with. She certainly gives this vibe IMO that most/any niceness she has is faked/forced/exaggerated. Which sort of implies that in private she ain't.
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Old 11-20-2016, 06:01 PM
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I can be nasty and dismissive to subordinates if I'm not in a good mood or under stress. And so are a lot of people. This does not strike me as the least bit unusual for a person in this type of position.
Part of being a professional and a good boss is that you don't take it out on your subordinates when you are under stress or in a bad mood. People who indulge themselves with abusing or lashing out at subordinates because they cannot control themselves should not be put in supervisory positions if possible.
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Old 11-20-2016, 06:05 PM
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Part of being a professional and a good boss is that you don't take it out on your subordinates when you are under stress or in a bad mood. People who indulge themselves with abusing or lashing out at subordinates because they cannot control themselves should not be put in supervisory positions if possible.
Good thing we elected Trump, then.
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Old 11-20-2016, 06:07 PM
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Reporters secret "sources" are one thing. Live identifiable people are another. I guess you'd have to decide whether these people would lie to get fame/whatever.
A lot of people that are talking certainly aren't doing it for fame. My friend for example, is now a semi-functional anarchist that blames all his woes on being a SS kid. He has no political affiliation but he knows all the political families from the Fords to the Bushes personally (and wants nothing to do with any of them anymore). What he told me starting decades ago matches up with other reports from lots of other people.

It is basically the same thing as people reporting that a certain celebrity is a complete dick. One encounter can be written off but it is a lot harder to disbelieve it when similar reports come pouring in from thousands of other people.

Some of my family lives in Fayetteville, AR where the Clintons lived for years. It is a bigger city than you would expect these days but it was fairly small back then. I am sure they have many fans there even today but the word on the street whenever I go there is that she was always an abusive hellbeast. Even my uber-liberal aunt that met her many times claims that was always true.
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Old 11-20-2016, 06:15 PM
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It was reported that Hillary was crying inconsolably.
I would too, if I were her. It's kind of weird how we expect politicians to be all things to all people, warm but not too emotional (remember how people freaked back when Howard Dean raised his voice for a second?) I imagine that when she lost the election, Hillary was just a sad person watching all that she had worked for slip through her fingers. Hardly noteworthy or unusual for a human being.

Reports of being abusive to underlings are another thing entirely.
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:17 PM
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It's widely (but how truthfully?) reported that Hillary occasionally lets her inner harpy out, and that she did not take losing the election well.
One can imagine why she would. Regardless of what you think of her principles or politics, she has worked for decades, first elevating a husband who was a serial adulterer and then by becoming one of the DNCs biggest fundraisers, as well as working in her role as a senator to obtain bipartisan support for her initiatives (and those authored by others), to have her career aspirations crushed by losing to a lop-haired buffoon in no small part due a last minute crisis attributed to yet another oaf literally not able to keep his wiener in his pants. In such a position, I'd literally be smashing holes in the wall like the lead in a Roger Corman Hulk.

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Good thing we elected Trump, then.
Indeed. He limits his angst to threatening to jail opponents during a policy debate and sending out nearly incoherent and abusive tweets at a time when most humans are deep in REM sleep. He is the very model of a modern bigly president/He's information military, economic, and immigrational/He knows the major players and their paedophile proclivities/From Manhattan to Long Island, he knows the nation inimical.

Jesus, I hope the descendants of Gilbert & Sullivan don't descend upon me with lawsuits for associated them with this mess.

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Old 11-20-2016, 07:20 PM
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Indeed. He limits his angst to threatening to jail opponents during a policy debate and sending out nearly incoherent and abusive tweets at a time when most humans are deep in REM sleep. He is the very model of a modern bigly president/He's information military, economic, and immigrational/He knows the major players and their paedophile proclivities/From Manhattan to Long Island, he knows the nation inimical.

Jesus, I hope the descendants of Gilbert & Sullivan don't descend upon me with lawsuits for associated them with this mess.

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After that one, I would expect Gilbert & Sullivan themselves to drag their moldering bones from the crypt and take their revenge personally.
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:23 PM
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Well, I'm a writing staff of one, and I have no illusion that I'm the next Aaron Sorkin. Still better than most of the crap that comes out of Cracked.com these days, though.

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Old 11-20-2016, 07:47 PM
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I would have lost my mind if I were her, so she gets a pass from me on any tantrums thrown. She did it off camera and off line. We know that's something her opponent could not have done.
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Old 11-20-2016, 08:15 PM
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Ed Klein is a Clinton axe-grinder and has been for years. Not credible.

I know several people who have worked with her. Repeatedly, when they didn't have to. I haven't asked whether she's a harpy and I never would, but I have often observed in other venues that when men yell they're commanding and when women yell they're bitches.
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:10 PM
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Part of being a professional and a good boss is that you don't take it out on your subordinates when you are under stress or in a bad mood. People who indulge themselves with abusing or lashing out at subordinates because they cannot control themselves should not be put in supervisory positions if possible.
There is a lot of distance between being dismissive and being abusive.
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Old 11-21-2016, 08:45 AM
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Do the sources have video of this happening? In this day and age, when everyone has a video camera on their person at all times, if they don't have video, they're not credible.
Well unless you think these rants are in public places it would be kinda awkward to pull out your camera phone in the middle of a tirade.
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:50 AM
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One can only imagine that it went something like this.

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Last edited by Stranger On A Train; 11-21-2016 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:02 AM
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Well unless you think these rants are in public places it would be kinda awkward to pull out your camera phone in the middle of a tirade.
Uhma knows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huma_Abedin

She knows everything ... if a book was written by someone that was there it would have a huge impact, uh?

I see a day that Hillary and Bill are not married, just separated perhaps like when Gore divorced Tipper.

Some good advice there: astorian

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Serious question: are you equally skeptical when ugly rumors surface about politicians you hate?

ALL of us are tempted to believe the worst of our opponents. We shouldn't be quick to embrace any and all ugly rumors we hear, but when they're targeted at people we hate, we typically do.

The Left eagerly ate up implausible stories about Sarah Palin because they confirmed what liberals wanted to believe. It's no different when conservatives hear stories that Hillary is a bitch.


What's the truth? How would I know? For what little it's worth, the few friends I have who've met Hillary thought she was smart, warm, funny and extremely charming- none understood why she often seems just the opposite on TV.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:05 AM
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You know how, on this very message board, you can take your time rebutting someone's lengthy and erroneous post, calmly checking facts and citing sources, and invariably the person you're replying to will picture in their heads you banging away at your keyboard in an apoplectic rage, spittle flying as your struggle to control your wrath? And then accuse you of such?

Humans are just terrible at relaying memories. For one, if someone gets upset and you're already predisposed to think of that person as an angry type, then it tends to get filed away as being more dramatic than it really was. And for two, nobody wants to hear that story about that time someone famous did something rather bland. Which means that there are probably lots of secret service agents who saw the exact same sort of behavior and thought nothing of it who nobody will ever hear from, because they either don't consider those stories to be worth telling, or because nobody else considers those stories to be worth repeating. But the chronic exaggerator who's willing to regale us with entertaining tales that we want to hear about sour grapes and flying chairs, that guy's version of events get forwarded by my father in law.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:44 AM
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Looking at the whole of her life and all she has tolerated, yeah - I can believe it. If she didn't go off on a tirade now and then she wouldn't be normal.
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:01 AM
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There are number of stories floated over the years and most seem to come from SS Agents assigned to her during the Clinton White house years who say she was very nasty and dismissive if she was not in a good mood or under stress, and given what went down during those times good moods were probably rare.

But ...personally IMO, in looking and listening to her the underlying "vibe" I get is not that genuinely warm or friendly, it's a hungry, focused vibe of someone very smart and controlled trying very hard to seem normal and positive.
From what I have read she is fairly reserved and thus can come across as cold sometimes even standoffish. However, once you get to know her/she gets to know you, she is quite warm and personable. Also, Bill is apparently extremely warm and outgoing and his force of personality has to be seen to be believed. Anyone would look bitchy compared to him.

Apparently the Obamas are apparently very reserved and curt with others and at times confrontational. Yet people have reported to have enjoyed working for them.
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:42 AM
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Good thing we elected Trump, then.
What's this "we", paleface?
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:49 PM
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There is a lot of distance between being dismissive and being abusive.
How about being dismissive and being "nasty" (your word)?

I could see her being a bit bitchy. Full on tantrum?What the hell kind of adults throw tantrums, unless they're drunk or something? Still, as the song says, 'no one knows what goes on behind closed doors'.

My cousin in Chicago has a PR firm and therefore has access to a lot of politicians and whatnot. Oy, the things she told me about Michelle and the Obamas' relationship. And she's a big supporter; she just thinks personally they're a pair of wankers. I hate to believe it but there's no way I'll ever know without physical proof.
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Old 11-21-2016, 02:11 PM
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How about being dismissive and being "nasty" (your word)?

I could see her being a bit bitchy. Full on tantrum?What the hell kind of adults throw tantrums, unless they're drunk or something? Still, as the song says, 'no one knows what goes on behind closed doors'.
Actually, it was not my word. It was astro's. I just repeated it. I do not know what the actual behavior was that he referred to as "nasty" so I can only make an interpretation.

I can see her getting terse with someone. If I say, "Look, that's not what I asked you for. Come back when you can get it right." I consider it very nasty and dismissive, it's about the worst I have ever said. Which is maybe twice. I would not criticize her for saying that on a bad day to someone who can't follow instructions right the first time. But if she were to say, "Get the hell out of my sight you idiot," that is just abusive. Anything worse than that is just plain toxic.
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Old 11-21-2016, 03:05 PM
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Actually, it was not my word. It was astro's. I just repeated it. I do not know what the actual behavior was that he referred to as "nasty" so I can only make an interpretation.

I can see her getting terse with someone. If I say, "Look, that's not what I asked you for. Come back when you can get it right." I consider it very nasty and dismissive, it's about the worst I have ever said. Which is maybe twice. I would not criticize her for saying that on a bad day to someone who can't follow instructions right the first time. But if she were to say, "Get the hell out of my sight you idiot," that is just abusive. Anything worse than that is just plain toxic.
I stand corrected; sorry 'bout that She's definitely no shrinking violet but I hate to think of anyone I admire being a jerk (though of course, some are). Boy, she sure looked like she'd been crying in what I think was her first post election speech.
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Old 11-21-2016, 03:18 PM
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I can only go by what I have heard and seen when talking to a few Secret Service Agents. The Clinton's were not well liked by those that worked for them. I've been told directly that Hilary treated them like shit and like servants and not as the professionals that were dedicated to saving her life that they were. Bill was better but did not have much respect for them. They loved working for the Bush family. At least George and Laura. I never had any contact with anyone who had to babysit the daughters while they were being typical college kids. The Obama's were described as being pretty aloof around them but didn't treat them poorly. The worst criticism about Obama from them was that he was always late and always running behind which screwed up their schedules and caused security headaches. 43 was extremely punctual and always stuck to the schedule.
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Old 11-21-2016, 04:38 PM
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I can only go by what I have heard and seen when talking to a few Secret Service Agents.
Random question. Do secret service agents turn over like other White House staff with each new presidency, or is it common for the same agent to work with multiple presidents? That is, are you talking about different agents who worked at different times, or single individuals who experienced many different presidents?
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Old 11-21-2016, 05:18 PM
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I can only go by what I have heard and seen when talking to a few Secret Service Agents. The Clinton's were not well liked by those that worked for them. I've been told directly that Hilary treated them like shit and like servants and not as the professionals that were dedicated to saving her life that they were. Bill was better but did not have much respect for them. They loved working for the Bush family. At least George and Laura. I never had any contact with anyone who had to babysit the daughters while they were being typical college kids. The Obama's were described as being pretty aloof around them but didn't treat them poorly. The worst criticism about Obama from them was that he was always late and always running behind which screwed up their schedules and caused security headaches. 43 was extremely punctual and always stuck to the schedule.
I really think 43 was a class act. Say what you will about not liking his policies but he really took the position of president seriously.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:15 PM
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Random question. Do secret service agents turn over like other White House staff with each new presidency, or is it common for the same agent to work with multiple presidents? That is, are you talking about different agents who worked at different times, or single individuals who experienced many different presidents?
The ones that I am acquainted with worked through multiple administrations. Agents tend to be pretty jaded politically and their job is to protect the office regardless of their personal preferences. However, Presidential detail is extremely stressful so agents might not be able to do it long enough to protect more than one or two if they are on Presidential detail at all (most SS agents don't ever do Presidential duty). My friend's father was on duty when Reagan got shot for example. He wasn't injured himself but the aftermath took a major toll on the whole family. They got moved to California to protect ex-President Ford for a few years before returning to Washington to go back on duty for the active administration (Bush 41 and then the Clintons). Protecting Ford versus a sitting President was supposed to be a break but it is amazing how many threats even ex-Presidents get.

As an aside, a lot of the White House staff does not turn over between administrations either. The Chief Usher for example is the head of household operations and manages the household staff. Both the Chief Usher and those under him can serve for decades.

Last edited by Shagnasty; 11-21-2016 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:01 PM
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Random question. Do secret service agents turn over like other White House staff with each new presidency, or is it common for the same agent to work with multiple presidents? That is, are you talking about different agents who worked at different times, or single individuals who experienced many different presidents?
SS agents are not White House staff, they are law enforcement agents within the Department of Homeland Security. They are analogous to FBI Special Agents--they do not change just because the administration turns over.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:13 PM
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I was under the impression that Secret Service Agents did not talk about protectees, that doing so would make their jobs harder. If that's not one of their rules, it oughtta be.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:23 PM
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It was reported that Hillary was crying inconsolably.
Just like a woman, amirite?
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:53 PM
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Thank you, Shagnasty and CookingWithGas. Interesting stuff.

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Old 11-22-2016, 01:23 AM
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He is the very model of a modern bigly president/He's information military, economic, and immigrational/He knows the major players and their paedophile proclivities/From Manhattan to Long Island, he knows the nation inimical.
Thank you for the laugh. I needed it.
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Old 11-22-2016, 02:11 AM
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I really think 43 was a class act. Say what you will about not liking his policies but he really took the position of president seriously.
So seriously he took nearly a year and a half of vacation in eight years of his presidency.

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Thank you for the laugh. I needed it.
It's all part of the service.

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Old 11-22-2016, 07:46 AM
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SS agents are not White House staff, they are law enforcement agents within the Department of Homeland Security. They are analogous to FBI Special Agents--they do not change just because the administration turns over.
Right. They do move around due to promotions, lateral movements, burn out... not because of a change in administration. SS agents all start out with the same training but the protection detail has a lot of specialized training. It wouldn't be practical to keep switching them. Within the protection detail they will get switched around to less stressful positions from time to time.

On my first presidential detail I learned that when a president visits a location they never have enough personnel. Along with using local law enforcement they also pull in all the agents that work in the region. They have to drop whatever they are working on to help out. Even though presidential protection is a specialized detail all of them get a taste of it.

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Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
I was under the impression that Secret Service Agents did not talk about protectees, that doing so would make their jobs harder. If that's not one of their rules, it oughtta be.
You can't stop human nature. They tend to be pretty good with keeping most of the details of what goes on secret but they don't seem to have any problem giving overall impressions of who was good to work for and who wasn't. I can tell you that the State Troopers that guard the New Jersey governor are not nearly as tight lipped. When Jim McGreevey resigned I was not surprised by any of it.
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewder
I really think 43 was a class act. Say what you will about not liking his policies but he really took the position of president seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train
So seriously he took nearly a year and a half of vacation in eight years of his presidency.
I find this line of argument just as dumb when it's directed against Obama (who's been slammed repeatedly for supposedly goofing off on vacation).

Presidents do not just go off to lie on a beach somewhere out of touch while the nation crumbles.

http://www.newsweek.com/short-histor...outrage-213828
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:38 PM
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There is a book about the experiences of Secret Service agents while protecting Presidents and their families. It was written by Ronald Kessler and titled "The First Family Detail: Secret Service Agents Reveal the Hidden Lives of the Presidents". The Amazon preview page includes this blurb:
Quote:
Because Hillary Clinton is so nasty to agents, being assigned to her protective detail is considered a form of punishment and the worst assignment in the Secret Service.
Not that Kessler's writings are without critics, but he is a highly decorated journalist and no one seems to dispute his use of accurate quotes.

Last edited by Doctor Jackson; 11-22-2016 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:21 PM
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The 2014 Book, the Residence has a fascinating look into what the WH Staff thought of the various First Families. The Obama's don't come out well. Hillary is kinda ok, Bushes, Kennedys are loved. LBJ was an asshole.
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Old 11-22-2016, 02:00 PM
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I have no information about Hillary or any of the First Families.
But the reports of Hillary being unpleasant toward staff comes from multiple sources. And I tend to believe them because of their varied nature and the time span they cover. That said, given the treatment both Clintons got during their time in public service, I am not surprised, disappointed yes, but not surprised that she snapped at people in "private". She has been under tremendous pressure for decades. It is bound to show up in her behavior. It certainly would in mine if I ever suffered 1/10th of the abuse the Clintons have received.

That said, I would be pleased if she had risen above the pressure and treated those around her with respect at all times. Being human, I am not surprised she failed to make that rise.

Same with the Obamas. I would be shocked if their behavior was "normal". Being the first African American First Family is pressure of a whole new order. At least in public they come off as pleasant folks. That counts as success in my book given their situation. Both Bushes conducted themselves well. 41 was the oldest and by far the most experienced and did the best (except that time he got sick all over the Japanese Prime Minister-not his fault though ). But 43 seemed like a genuinely nice guy. Too bad his grasp of the responsibilities of the office didn't rise to the level of his personal life.
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Old 11-22-2016, 02:54 PM
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LBJ was an asshole.
And no one was shocked at that revelation.
  #48  
Old 11-22-2016, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Jackson View Post
"The First Family Detail: Secret Service Agents Reveal the Hidden Lives of the Presidents".
Would one who took his job, and responsibilities, seriously talk about it? Or are the sources for that stuff only a few guys who got dismissed for misconduct, which as you know occurred with the SS on multiple occasions in the last administration? What credibility should their gossip hold?

Let's also not forget that, their being LEO's, an adherence to the Republican Party and the Fox version of reality is more likely than average.
  #49  
Old 11-23-2016, 09:12 AM
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ElvisL1ves, as stated in the linked wiki bio, Mr. Kessler had written generally favorable articles about the CIA and Secret Service in general. The head of the Secret Service at the time, Mark Sullivan, was probably hoping for the same when he gave his blessing to Kessler's effort on "First Families". Hearing that their boss had OK'd the book, agents felt free to discuss candidly. Please read the links before attacking the messenger.
  #50  
Old 11-26-2016, 01:29 AM
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Serious question: are you equally skeptical when ugly rumors surface about politicians you hate?
Until Trump, yes. And not because I hate Trump, but because I kept finding that what I would normally think was an exaggeration really wasn't.

The only reason to report on this sort of thing is to make her look bad, and thus my instinct is that they exaggerated to make it look worse.

Trump actually did his horrible shit in public, so there was no reason for skepticism. Hell, he would basically admit everything he did with his response trying to fix it.
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