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Old 12-08-2016, 12:40 PM
obbn obbn is offline
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Trans gender question

Hello Everyone,

When someone is referred to as a transgendered woman does that mean that person was born a woman and is now living as a man or does it mean a person born as a man is now living as a woman?
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:43 PM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is offline
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The parlance, AIUI, is that the gender descriptor (man or woman) refers to how the individuals currently identify themselves. So, a transgender woman is one who currently identifies as a woman, but was born male (e.g., Caitlyn Jenner is a transgender woman).

Last edited by kenobi 65; 12-08-2016 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:43 PM
engineer_comp_geek engineer_comp_geek is offline
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It means someone who was born male and now identifies as female.
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:45 PM
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There's an easy way to remember it. Take off the trans, and it should still be accurate. Just like, if you say "black woman" and you take off "black," the "woman" part is still accurate.

Last edited by BigT; 12-08-2016 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by engineer_comp_geek View Post
It means someone who was born male and now identifies as female.
Correction: It means someone who identifies as female, who previously did not (publicly) identify as female.

There is no reason a trans woman must be born a man. Hell, we all have an acquaintance who was born intersex.

Plus, born male is kinda problematic, since many (most?) trans people say they were their preferred gender all along. Their body was just wrong.

Last edited by BigT; 12-08-2016 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:50 PM
beowulff beowulff is offline
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
There's an easy way to remember it. Take off the trans, and it should still be accurate. Just like, if you say "black woman" and you take off "black," the "woman" part is still accurate.
Accurate how?
Genetically or as self-identified?
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:58 PM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is offline
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Correction: It means someone who identifies as female, who previously did not (publicly) identify as female.

There is no reason a trans woman must be born a man. Hell, we all have an acquaintance who was born intersex.

Plus, born male is kinda problematic, since many (most?) trans people say they were their preferred gender all along. Their body was just wrong.
Excellent clarification -- thank you.
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Old 12-08-2016, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by beowulff View Post
Accurate how?
Genetically or as self-identified?
Self-identified, rather obviously from the context of the posts.
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:49 PM
Riemann Riemann is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Correction: It means someone who identifies as female, who previously did not (publicly) identify as female.

There is no reason a trans woman must be born a man. Hell, we all have an acquaintance who was born intersex.

Plus, born male is kinda problematic, since many (most?) trans people say they were their preferred gender all along. Their body was just wrong.
I think you are almost correct, but I think your first sentence is wrong. I'd say more explicitly that the "trans-" prefix does not refer to a temporal transition at all, it does not refer to a sequence of events. It means rather that one's gender identity differs from one's assigned or chromosomal sex.

It's analogous to the way cis- and trans- are used in stereochemistry, it's the relative position of things, not their history.

Last edited by Riemann; 12-08-2016 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 09:45 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Plus, born male is kinda problematic, since many (most?) trans people say they were their preferred gender all along. Their body was just wrong.
Correct for most IME. For myself...well, although I'm intersex and trans, I'm also very tolerant and don't get upset when people say "born male" to describe me.

Last edited by Una Persson; 12-08-2016 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:47 PM
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Quoth beowulff:

Accurate how?
Genetically or as self-identified?
It pretty much can't be genetically, because most people don't even know their own genetic sex, much less that of anyone else they meet.

Remember, there are many different kinds of physical sex (even before getting into the issue of mental gender), and while they have a very high correlation with each other, the correlation isn't perfect. And societal treatment is yet another thing: It's possible, for instance, for someone with XY chromosomes, high testosterone and androgen and low estrogen and progesterone, born with a penis and testicles and not a vagina and ovaries, and self-identifying as male, to nonetheless be raised as female.
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:13 PM
Derleth Derleth is online now
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Originally Posted by beowulff View Post
Accurate how?
Genetically or as self-identified?
To amplify what Chronos said, "genetic" sex is a complicated topic in the general case. It happens to be very easy most of the time, but every so often the complex dance of chromosomes, hormones, tissue development, and resulting neurocognitive development doesn't go as it usually does, and you get people who are rather more complicated than usual.

One example is complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) in XY babies: The XY chromosomes coded for hormones to masculinize the body, but the hormones were ignored so the body developed in a feminine direction, instead. These kids get raised as girls even though every cell in their body says boy at the genetic level. Male or female?

Another is partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS) among XY infants, where the cells are only somewhat responsive to the masculinizing hormones.

There are even more complicated examples here. The sex binary, which works so well most of the time, is by no means simple even at a basic physical level, and adding gender on top of that is another galaxy of complexity to consider. No matter how you draw the lines, or how many lines you draw, there will always be people who simply do not fit into any categories.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:27 AM
Tom Tildrum Tom Tildrum is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
...most people don't even know their own genetic sex....
Sex chromosome abnormalities and CAIS account for less than 1% of the population, right? So while most people haven't had themselves karyotyped, nearly everyone can estimate their own genetic sex with over a 99% level of confidence?
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Old 12-09-2016, 07:12 AM
Boozahol Squid, P.I. Boozahol Squid, P.I. is offline
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Hell, we all have an acquaintance who was born intersex.
We do? Are you saying that the condition is so common that it's reasonable to assume that everyone knows someone who is intersex (It's not, apparently it occurs in roughly 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 live births) Or are you saying that we all share a common intersex acquaintance (Cecil?!)
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Old 12-09-2016, 08:27 AM
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I'm pretty sure he was referring to Una Persson.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:27 PM
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Am I the only one bothered by the term, in a nitpicking grammar nazi sort of way?

"Trans" means "beyond". In my opinion, genderqueer, intersex, and "third gender" folks are "trans"gender in that sense, because they go beyond what has always been thought of as the two genders. Even androgyny or simply not conforming to traditional gender roles might be considered to be beyond gender, as well.

But the people we currently call "trans", are very much a traditionally acknowledged gender, and often attempt to align with accepted gender roles, just not the ones their parents originally assigned them. In my opinion, that is not beyond gender at all.

And considering the recent terminology history moving from "transvestite" to "transsexual" to "transgender" in such a short time, I think we could actually fix this one.

Frankly I question the need for a special term at all. We call people "redheads" even if they were born blonde, why can't we just call people "women" even if they were originally deemed male at birth? I can see a need for a term for the community of people who underwent this sort of uncommon but significant personal change in their lives, so they can seek each other out and learn and receive mutual support, but I think the term "transgender" just doesn't really fit.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:46 PM
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Am I the only one bothered by the term, in a nitpicking grammar nazi sort of way?

"Trans" means "beyond"...
That's just one of the meanings of the prefix trans-, and not the one that applies in this word.

Cisgender = gender identity conforms with assigned/chromosomal sex
Transgender = gender identify does not conform with assigned/chromosomal sex

It does not connote being "beyond", nor does it connote temporal transition ("born a man, now a woman").
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:46 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Trans, both as a prefix and a Latin loanword, means both "across" (as in trans-Pacific) and "beyond." It's in the across sense that it is used here (and in chemistry, as noted above).

ETA: ninja'd.

Last edited by Really Not All That Bright; 12-09-2016 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:16 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Correction: It means someone who identifies as female, who previously did not (publicly) identify as female. ...

Plus, born male is kinda problematic, since many (most?) trans people say they were their preferred gender all along. Their body was just wrong.
I think your statement above is correct, in the sense that a great many transgender people would agree with you. They aren't the only people affected though. There are genderqueer people who identify as a gender and separately from that, identify in some manner according to their physical morphology and physical presentation.

Some of us who DO so do not use "sex terms", i.e., female and male, to refer to gender, but only to one's physical morphology. Because it's semantically useful to us to have one set of terms for the one and a different set of terms for the other.

(I would think it would be usefui to transgender people, if only in order to explain that they are transgender, but I'm not in charge of telling them what terminologies to use, and you're entirely right, many people who were born male and identify as a woman consider themselves to be now and to have always been female, as well as to be now and to have always been a woman.)


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Originally Posted by DrCube View Post

Frankly I question the need for a special term at all. We call people "redheads" even if they were born blonde, why can't we just call people "women" even if they were originally deemed male at birth?
You can't draw attention to the social situation of transgender (or other gender-variant or black or women or disabled or etc) people if you are only to refer to them as people. However lofty and admirable it may be to regard all people simply as people and not treat them different because of categorical membership in some designated group, it is important and necessary, at least in the interim, to be able to specify that the category does exist, is currently socially recognized and different treatment accorded and so on.

Last edited by AHunter3; 12-09-2016 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:24 PM
Riemann Riemann is online now
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...And considering the recent terminology history moving from "transvestite" to "transsexual" to "transgender" in such a short time, I think we could actually fix this one.

Frankly I question the need for a special term at all....
You seem to be under the impression that these words are synonyms, older and newer terms for the same thing. They are not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
Quote:
Transgender people are people who have a gender identity, or gender expression, that differs from their assigned sex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual
Quote:
Transsexual people experience a gender identity that is inconsistent with, or not culturally associated with, their assigned sex, and desire to permanently transition to the gender with which they identify.
[my underline; i.e. transsexual is a subset of transgender]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestism
Quote:
Transvestism (also called transvestitism) is the practice of dressing and acting in a style or manner traditionally associated with the opposite sex.

Last edited by Riemann; 12-09-2016 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:31 PM
Riemann Riemann is online now
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
...many people who were born male and identify as a woman consider themselves to be now and to have always been female, as well as to be now and to have always been a woman....
But again, note that the "trans-" in transgender does not indication temporal transition. It does not speak to the history of a person implying that they "were a man and are now a woman". Rather, it describes the relative state of gender identity vs assigned/chromosomal sex, which can be cis- or trans-.

Last edited by Riemann; 12-09-2016 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 12-09-2016, 02:05 PM
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Very simply, IMHO, "trans-" implies change from the physical/genetic gender assigned at birth ("across", since we have basically two major categories). If Bruce Jenner were still Bruce, he wouldn't be "trans" anything. Once he started to let any subset of the world know he was she, (IMHO) then he's now / she's now -a transgendered woman. After all, you wouldn't likely call a person who sees themselves as a "woman", a "man"; in all politeness and decency, assuming they are sincere, they are what they believe themselves to be.

("transvestite" = "cross-dresser", for example)
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Old 12-09-2016, 02:16 PM
Riemann Riemann is online now
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Very simply, IMHO, "trans-" implies change from the physical/genetic gender assigned at birth....
Well, I guess I just have to keep saying this until people pay attention, but the trans- in transgender does not connote a temporal change from one thing to another. The "trans-" means that gender identity differs from assigned sex. It does not speak to a person's history, it speaks to their nature.

It's an important distinction.

And, to be clear, I'm not expression my personal opinion about what the word means. Spend 15 minutes googling and I think you'll find there's widespread consensus on this.

Last edited by Riemann; 12-09-2016 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 12-09-2016, 02:28 PM
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Indeed. Trans people are just as much the gender their brain is even if they never get surgically or hormonally modified to make their body look like what they are.
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Old 12-09-2016, 03:24 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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And, to be clear, I'm not expression my personal opinion about what the word means. Spend 15 minutes googling and I think you'll find there's widespread consensus on this.
I agree with you, but in GQ you can't make other people do your research for you.
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Old 12-09-2016, 03:28 PM
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You seem to be under the impression that these words are synonyms, older and newer terms for the same thing. They are not.

[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestism
As the Wikipedia page touches on, and as brought up by the recent production of "Rocky Horror Picture Show" starring Laverne Cox, "transvestite" was sometimes used to mean "transsexual". Here's an article that mentions her (and the director's) decision to keep the term in the song.
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Old 12-09-2016, 04:05 PM
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I think that Rocky Horror Picture Show just sort of jumbled all forms of non-mainstream sexuality together, without any attempt to distinguish between them. Which probably does a disservice to all of them.
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Old 12-09-2016, 04:35 PM
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I agree with you, but in GQ you can't make other people do your research for you.
I'm not really sure what you mean. I already posted links to the comprehensive and carefully written Wiki articles, quoting relevant excerpts. If anyone questions this, they can google and easily find a dozen reputable sources that concur with the Wiki articles, showing a clear consensus in the community about what the word means. It seems to me that it's better for anyone skeptical of Wiki to discover this for themselves, rather than have me post a wall of links that might be cherry-picked. It's not difficult to find many reputable sources discussing the terminology.

Last edited by Riemann; 12-09-2016 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 12-09-2016, 04:40 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Transvestite was used in error to refer to transsexual and transgender persons, either due to ignorance or due to mistake. When I do my research on technical and medical journals prior to 1980 I have to always include "transv*" in the search terms, moreso the further back one gets. Even Christine Jorgensen's lead physician Christian Hamburger referred to her as a "transvestite," even after surgery.

I often deliberately refer to myself as "transsexual" because the word "transgender" is being appropriated by people who on a temporary, sometimes situational basis, are calling themselves "transgender." A drag performer I know calls themselves that, even though they admit they're "just a guy that gets (an erection) from dressing up." Under the broad definition of transgender, because they are crossing gender presentation boundaries, they are "transgender" too.
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Old 12-10-2016, 02:33 AM
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Una, can I just say, it's nice to see you in a discussion. Maybe I've missed your posts--I am mainly in GQ and a bit in IMHO--but I always enjoy them.
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:45 AM
Francis Vaughan Francis Vaughan is offline
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I think that Rocky Horror Picture Show just sort of jumbled all forms of non-mainstream sexuality together, without any attempt to distinguish between them. Which probably does a disservice to all of them.
Worth mentioning, and in context, Richard O'Brien - the author of the Rocky Horror Picture Show, himself identifies as transgender, but in another possible (and grammatically correct) meaning of the term. From his wikipededia page:
Quote:
In a 2009 interview O'Brien spoke about an ongoing struggle to reconcile cultural gender roles and described himself as being transgender or possible third sex. O'Brien stated, "There is a continuum between male and female. Some are hard-wired one way or another, Iím in between."[22] He expounded on this in a 2013 interview where he talked about using estrogen for the previous decade, and that he views himself as 70% male and 30% female.[23]
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Old 12-10-2016, 12:09 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Una, can I just say, it's nice to see you in a discussion. Maybe I've missed your posts--I am mainly in GQ and a bit in IMHO--but I always enjoy them.
Thank you very much for writing that, TSBG. My radio show and the transgender research and advocacy work I do at the Institute limit my time online here (in addition to my day job...), but I'm still working on the Straight Dope with Cecil.
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Old 12-10-2016, 12:15 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Worth mentioning, and in context, Richard O'Brien - the author of the Rocky Horror Picture Show, himself identifies as transgender, but in another possible (and grammatically correct) meaning of the term. From his wikipededia page:
Richard O'Brien is also a piece of shit who has made transphobic statements, and is oft-hated in the community, and is another example of why the broad umbrella of transgender is often offensive to people like me. RuPaul also fits in that category.
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Old 12-10-2016, 12:16 PM
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To amplify what Chronos said, "genetic" sex is a complicated topic in the general case. It happens to be very easy most of the time, but every so often the complex dance of chromosomes, hormones, tissue development, and resulting neurocognitive development doesn't go as it usually does, and you get people who are rather more complicated than usual.

One example is complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) in XY babies: The XY chromosomes coded for hormones to masculinize the body, but the hormones were ignored so the body developed in a feminine direction, instead. These kids get raised as girls even though every cell in their body says boy at the genetic level. Male or female?

Another is partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS) among XY infants, where the cells are only somewhat responsive to the masculinizing hormones.

There are even more complicated examples here. The sex binary, which works so well most of the time, is by no means simple even at a basic physical level, and adding gender on top of that is another galaxy of complexity to consider. No matter how you draw the lines, or how many lines you draw, there will always be people who simply do not fit into any categories.
Life used to be so much simpler.
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:06 PM
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You mean, back when it consisted entirely of prokaryotes? Because even that's a lot more complicated than it's usually given credit for.

Or, more likely, I think what you mean to say is that we used to think that life was simpler. There have always been intersexed individuals, and homosexuality, and transgenderism, and all the rest of that; it just didn't used to get talked about much.
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:49 PM
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Richard O'Brien is also a piece of shit who has made transphobic statements, and is oft-hated in the community, and is another example of why the broad umbrella of transgender is often offensive to people like me. RuPaul also fits in that category.

I had no clue about Riff Raff. I expected much better from him. I'm stunned
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:29 AM
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I often deliberately refer to myself as "transsexual" because the word "transgender" is being appropriated by people who on a temporary, sometimes situational basis, are calling themselves "transgender." A drag performer I know calls themselves that, even though they admit they're "just a guy that gets (an erection) from dressing up." Under the broad definition of transgender, because they are crossing gender presentation boundaries, they are "transgender" too.
It's interesting because among the younger trans people I interact with (being a younger transperson myself), we all really hate the term "transsexual" and many flat out reject it. It, at the very least, tends to sound quaint or outdated, and more often than not tends to precede ignorance or hate speech outside scientific literature.

I agree that there's an odd lumping going on with "transgender" and some people are trying to appropriate it, but your feelings on this topic are always interesting to me because of how much they diverge from my peer group. We hate the lumping going on with transgender as much as you, but our reactions are much different.

Edit: There's also a bit of reclaiming of "tranny" going on, but that one is waaaaaaaay more contentious, and you don't really use it unless you know everyone involved in the conversation is on the same page with regards to that word; even when you're all trans it can cause discomfort and fights.

Last edited by Jragon; 12-12-2016 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:35 AM
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"
Thanks for posting this.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:36 PM
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I keep getting encouraged to embrace the term "transgender" for myself. "Oh, you qualify, why would you want to call yourself something different when we're all in this together?"

I'm continually amazed that there are not more people like Una Persson who wish to have (and to use) a term that specifically means a person who did transition or who intends to transition from their "assigned at birth" sex to the one that matches their gender. Such people have had to negotiate a complex journey with a shitload of challenges that are very different from those that someone like me faces. And they've made society aware of their situation — perhaps society thinks of them in a reductionistic caricaturish way, but it is now aware and to a significant extent sympathetic, nonetheless, and that's a massively admirable accomplishment.

If people used "transsexual" to refer to such transitioning people, and they used "transgender" to refer to the entire inclusive grand ole big tent of ALL people who are in some sense or another "of a different gender than the one assigned at birth", that would make sense, but that's not how it is. As Jragon points out, "transsexual" is in disfavor, almost viewed as an insulting pejorative. Know what that means? It means that people use the term "transgender" in nearly every context where what they actually mean is "transsexual" — the transitioning people, not the rest of us who are theoretically hovering underneath those big tentflaps.

And it isn't doing us, the non-transitioning gender-variant people, any favors, either, this equivocation. It erases us. We're included and yet we're included the way married women were included under the old definition of marriage: man and woman have become one and the one is the husband.

I could not ask for braver or stronger allies than the transitioning people who largely comprise the trans community. In fact, to say that is a bit like the Republic of Monaco saying they sure do appreciate having the United States as allies. The rest of us are a motley crew of badly self-defined people with assorted concerns we haven't enunciated very well, and no clear and available coming-out narratives to explain what the hell our deal is, except for a whole lot of heat and noise about pronouns.

But while I very much want to continue to be seen as on the same side and sharing many of the same concerns, we need our own term(s) and we need to attain society's understanding of our situation. Trans people could not just lurk as part of the lesbian and gay community, and genderqueer and other-named (or unnamed) gender-variant people can't just be in the shadows of the transgender identity.

Last edited by AHunter3; 12-13-2016 at 12:38 PM.
  #40  
Old 12-13-2016, 01:17 PM
Riemann Riemann is online now
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...If people used "transsexual" to refer to such transitioning people, and they used "transgender" to refer to the entire inclusive grand ole big tent of ALL people who are in some sense or another "of a different gender than the one assigned at birth", that would make sense, but that's not how it is. As Jragon points out, "transsexual" is in disfavor, almost viewed as an insulting pejorative. Know what that means? It means that people use the term "transgender" in nearly every context where what they actually mean is "transsexual" — the transitioning people, not the rest of us who are theoretically hovering underneath those big tentflaps....
Yes, given the evident widespread misapprehension seen in this thread that trans-[anything] implies a temporal transition along the lines of "born male, changed into female" (whether expressed pejoratively or otherwise), it does seem that we could do with a different word that does not use the prefix trans- for those who do not fit a mould of well-defined transition. Gender-fluid captures another subset of people, but the way I understand that is to imply variability over time?

Last edited by Riemann; 12-13-2016 at 01:17 PM.
  #41  
Old 12-13-2016, 02:15 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Of course, there are so many possible permutations of physical sex (and different aspects of physical sex, at that), mental gender, and societal expectations, at different points in one's life, and in different contexts, that it would be impossible to have a distinct word for all of them.
  #42  
Old 12-13-2016, 03:42 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Yes, given the evident widespread misapprehension seen in this thread that trans-[anything] implies a temporal transition along the lines of "born male, changed into female" (whether expressed pejoratively or otherwise), it does seem that we could do with a different word that does not use the prefix trans- for those who do not fit a mould of well-defined transition. Gender-fluid captures another subset of people, but the way I understand that is to imply variability over time?
ETA: I like the phrase gender variant for the best catch-all.

/ETA

Yeah, I'd say your description of genderfluid is accurate. I identify as genderqueer and spend time on genderqueer boards and groups. Genderfluid people are probably the largest single subset within genderqueer, which is yet another big-tent all-encompassing identity. Unlike "transgender", I use "genderqueer" because it doesn't invoke a bunch of meanings that don't apply to me. It doesn't invoke a whole bunch of any kind of meanings, in fact; I joke that "genderqueer" means "no that's still not it, it's something else!"

I don't fit into genderfluid myself, not really, not as the people who embrace it describe it. They consider who they are, their gendered self, to vary over time. For me, my understanding of my gendered self may fluctuate a bit (I have days when I think of myself as just another male-bodied person in a sea of sexist generalizations about males, and I'm just more vocal about disliking them and considering them to be wrong; on other days the most critically central aspect of my identity is that I am a male-bodied person who has always identified with the girls and women, hence totally genderqueer and Different from other males with a capital D), but not my gender itself.

Last edited by AHunter3; 12-13-2016 at 03:45 PM.
  #43  
Old 12-13-2016, 04:27 PM
Riemann Riemann is online now
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ETA: I like the phrase gender variant for the best catch-all.
That seems to work reasonably well. It's rather difficult to find vocabulary that doesn't either have a lot of historical baggage (e.g. []-queer), have pejorative connotations, or require potentially tiresome explanation. I guess "gender-atypical" is the underlying sense, but atypical maybe has a slight negative connotation of abnormality, so variant seems a better word.

Last edited by Riemann; 12-13-2016 at 04:32 PM.
  #44  
Old 12-13-2016, 06:19 PM
Jragon Jragon is offline
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Transgender doesn't necessarily imply MtF or FtM though, even taking into account intersex people. Nonbinary and agender people seem to generally be fine being under the trans umbrella, and while the movement needs to put more focus on them since it's almost all on binary transpeople (and even at that almost exclusively MtF), but we have a ton of the same issues. Most of the enbies I know either get hormones or surgery. My agender friend is getting top surgery but not hormones. They suffer from actual dysphoria.

That said, they're still distinct from GQ and genderfluid people, generally.

Last edited by Jragon; 12-13-2016 at 06:19 PM.
  #45  
Old 12-13-2016, 06:48 PM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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Correct for most IME. For myself...well, although I'm intersex and trans, I'm also very tolerant and don't get upset when people say "born male" to describe me.
Una, you've come a long way and even if you still have a lot of baggage you're actually pretty confident in who you are. I think that makes dealing with vocal mis-steps or even outright bigotry easier than if you were not so well grounded.

Locally, my knitting group has a person transitioning from presenting-male to presenting-female. She turned up at work when I was running the jewelry counter and I think she found it a relief to see me there, knowing I wasn't going to treat her badly and she could just be herself, referring to both having to learn all the girly stuff in her 50's and just, you know, being girls talking about jewelry and knitting. In an ideal world, transwomen and transmen would be accepted to the point that people aren't constantly questioning who/what they are, which, I suspect, would make talking about their pasts and the transition a lot less painful than it has historically been.

Happy to say that, unlike prior work experiences, there wasn't a lot of whispering or hushed "that's really a MAN!!!!" afterward. Definitely a change from a decade ago, or maybe I just work with a better crowd of people.

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We do? Are you saying that the condition is so common that it's reasonable to assume that everyone knows someone who is intersex (It's not, apparently it occurs in roughly 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 live births) Or are you saying that we all share a common intersex acquaintance (Cecil?!)
Una Persson, as already mentioned (including by Una) was born intersex. She's the most out. There has been at least one other poster who was here briefly who was (and presumably still is) intersex.

On another board I know two women born with Klinefelter Syndrome who have completed their transitions - Klinefelter may or may not be seen as intersex by some people. Another transgender person there has stated she is intersex but has not specified in what manner (we have a lot of out transgender people on that board because the owner and admins are adamant about maintaining a non-hostile environment so it's become something of a safe space).

Yes, you probably have met more than one intersex person in your life, especially if you live in a big city. It's not like they're glow-in-the-dark purple. Intersex conditions are a lot more common than people realize because it's so easy to hide the difference under clothing. Some of them aren't apparent even with clothes off, especially with modern surgical techniques.

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I think that Rocky Horror Picture Show just sort of jumbled all forms of non-mainstream sexuality together, without any attempt to distinguish between them. Which probably does a disservice to all of them.
The Rocky Horror Picture Show is not and never has been a documentary and I pity anyone attempting to learn anything about sexuality from it. It's a farce, a comedy, and never intended to be a serious tutorial of any sort. Might as well say it's promoting incest because of Riff Raff and Magenta, or cannibalism (meatloaf for dinner again?).
  #46  
Old 12-17-2016, 04:04 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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It's interesting because among the younger trans people I interact with (being a younger transperson myself), we all really hate the term "transsexual" and many flat out reject it. It, at the very least, tends to sound quaint or outdated, and more often than not tends to precede ignorance or hate speech outside scientific literature.
Recently I was told after lecturing to a group of young transgender persons on transgender history that I was "not allowed" to even use the word "transgender" because it was "hate speech." Because it implies that one must "transition," is their argument.

Quote:
I agree that there's an odd lumping going on with "transgender" and some people are trying to appropriate it, but your feelings on this topic are always interesting to me because of how much they diverge from my peer group. We hate the lumping going on with transgender as much as you, but our reactions are much different.
One of the reasons I hate the lumping is that I work every day as an "out and proud" transsexual woman in an industry that is known for being ultra-conservative and where transgender women at my career level are nonexistent to vanishingly rare. In fact, I don't know of any others in the United States at my level in my industry. But what I do get are a LOT of comments whereby people are "confused" and don't understand why I'm different than RuPaul, or Nathan Lane in The Birdcage, or some random cisguy going out to clubs to play dress up and suck people off in the tiki lounge. And they want me to try to "prove" I'm different from someone wearing clothes as a kink.

I love crossdressers, I am good friends with many of them. But I am not them and I detest being treated or viewed as if this is a kink or a thrill.
  #47  
Old 12-17-2016, 05:33 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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Recently I was told after lecturing to a group of young transgender persons on transgender history that I was "not allowed" to even use the word "transgender" because it was "hate speech." Because it implies that one must "transition," is their argument.
I'm guessing a lot of them hang out at tumblr -- I hope you didn't take it personally.
  #48  
Old 12-17-2016, 06:31 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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One of the reasons I hate the lumping is that I work every day as an "out and proud" transsexual woman in an industry that is known for being ultra-conservative and where transgender women at my career level are nonexistent to vanishingly rare.
Heck, cisgender women engineers are already pretty darned rare.
  #49  
Old 12-18-2016, 12:09 AM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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I'm guessing a lot of them hang out at tumblr -- I hope you didn't take it personally.
They may, but there is a very large, very angry group of non-binary offenderatti locally who absolutely detest binary transgender people, especially those over age 35.
  #50  
Old 12-18-2016, 12:14 AM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Heck, cisgender women engineers are already pretty darned rare.
This is sadly true in my field; in other fields it's much better.
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