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  #51  
Old 01-16-2017, 10:00 AM
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By the way, this whole "Booker sells out progressives/is in the pocket of Big Pharma and Wall St." effort seems like an early ratfuck program against a probable future Dem Presidential nominee.

Maybe it's just me. But it might be wise to practice some healthy skepticism for accusations singling out particular political figures for particular inconsequential votes or speech excerpts or casual associations. Because haven't we seen that kinda thing enough to know it for what it is yet?

Last edited by xenophon41; 01-16-2017 at 10:00 AM.
  #52  
Old 01-16-2017, 01:49 PM
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By the way, this whole "Booker sells out progressives/is in the pocket of Big Pharma and Wall St." effort seems like an early ratfuck program against a probable future Dem Presidential nominee.

Maybe it's just me. But it might be wise to practice some healthy skepticism for accusations singling out particular political figures for particular inconsequential votes or speech excerpts or casual associations. Because haven't we seen that kinda thing enough to know it for what it is yet?
Booker's record as a non-progressive, Blue Dog type is pretty well established though. That's not an attack, just an observation of which wing of the party he's a part of. He and Clinton are two peas in a pod in that fashion, although Booker has no record of scandal.

Booker also probably reassembles the Obama coalition but bigger(since it will be eight years since Obama's last election), plus Booker comes in with more experience and an actual record of government reform. Booker COULD be much of what Obama merely sold himself as. Of course, Booker still has politicians' disease, an unwillingness to let anyone know where he really stands on anything until it's to his advantage. This is a guy who had Larry Wilmore throw all the teabags at him for trying to claim he doesn't want to be President.
  #53  
Old 01-16-2017, 02:34 PM
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Booker's record as a non-progressive, Blue Dog type is pretty well established though. That's not an attack, just an observation of which wing of the party he's a part of. He and Clinton are two peas in a pod in that fashion, although Booker has no record of scandal.
Wrong on most counts. I'd like a citation for "non-progressive, Blue Dog type" because that's really far off the actual track record for both HRC and Cory Booker. What scorecard(s) are you using?

Progressive Punch gives Booker a "lifetime" score of 97.99, not as progressive as, say Elizabeth Warren (99.13), but a whole hell of a lot higher than any recognized "Blue Dog". Joe Manchin (72.92) he ain't.

Last edited by xenophon41; 01-16-2017 at 02:35 PM. Reason: added hyperlink
  #54  
Old 01-16-2017, 04:42 PM
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No, he's no Jon Manchin, but a lot depends on how you score votes. Plus there's more to him than his Senate record, there's also his mayoral record to consider.
  #55  
Old 01-16-2017, 05:19 PM
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Then make that case, with citations. Otherwise, your complaint* is just another baseless insinuation of impure motives and improper ideology. The same sort of agitprop stones cast at Hillary Clinton by too many 'useful idiot' leftists who didn't bother to find out whether there was any truth at all to the aspersions.


*I use the term "complaint" guardedly, in awareness that you, adaher, aren't commenting from a progressive perspective in the first place. You're just helping to build up a narrative about Booker for a future battalion of progressive purists.
  #56  
Old 01-17-2017, 01:02 AM
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It will be interesting to see whether Booker says anything when Betsy Devos, Trump's nominee for Education Secretary, has her confirmation hearing, and also how he votes on her confirmation. Booker has been a major proponent of school choice in Newark, where charter schools expanded rapidly while he was mayor. He touted charters as a necessary means of giving poor students educational opportunity. Devos is also a big supporter of charter schools, so this may help us determine whether Booker is still willing to break with the left.
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Old 01-17-2017, 01:59 AM
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It will be interesting to see whether Booker says anything when Betsy Devos, Trump's nominee for Education Secretary, has her confirmation hearing, and also how he votes on her confirmation. Booker has been a major proponent of school choice in Newark, where charter schools expanded rapidly while he was mayor. He touted charters as a necessary means of giving poor students educational opportunity. Devos is also a big supporter of charter schools, so this may help us determine whether Booker is still willing to break with the left.
If Booker plays this one right, he may realize his dream of becoming an education trailblazer across party lines. Can anyone reasonably deny how well BASIS, for instance, is doing in Arizona?
  #58  
Old 01-17-2017, 10:10 AM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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I can deny having the slightest idea what you are talking about. I cannot deny harboring dark suspicion as to why you are trying to shoe-horn the "charter school" stuff into the conversation. Further, I wonder if you realized, picking your username, that it anagrams to "moran"?
  #59  
Old 01-17-2017, 01:28 PM
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Well, 'luc', part A ("what you're talking about") seems to be referencing a wedge that's already being heavily worked between Booker and most progressives: as Mayor of Newark, he was very open to charter schools and different forms of vouchers. The context there is that the Newark school district has been under NJ state control for nigh on 20 years due to academic performance. Booker was (and is still open to) trying any methods that might work to improve the schools, advantage the students and/or raise academic outcomes. Congruently, Booker was and is open to miscellaneous avenues for increased funding of public education. I can't really see any evidence that he is or was ever a school privatization advocate.

Part B might be that the post is an attempt to work that wedge further into the narrative, or it might be that the poster is an education professional or a charter schools booster or any other honest interested party who wants to comment. If I were a better person, that would be my default stance, but I agree that in the context of this thread it's an abrupt insertion of an otherwise tangential subject.

Part C... ronam anagrams more closely to "manor". It's a straight reversal.
  #60  
Old 01-17-2017, 02:37 PM
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.... If I were a better person....
I am pleased to reassure that you are not. Groovy.
  #61  
Old 01-17-2017, 02:57 PM
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So, I understand Cory Booker is preparing to run for president in 2020 and he was showing some force by criticizing Jeff Sessions appointment for which he can use 4 years from now.
But then he voted against allowing Americans to import affordable drugs from Canada.
It turns out he has received over a million dollars from the pharma industry.
It seems he is now back peddling as people are criticizing his vote.
Did he blow it for 2020? Or will this be a wake up call for him?
I recall liking Booker after hearing him speak on various interviews, but now it feels like another establishment Democrat, taking money and voting accordingly. Really disappointed.
Though I thought I recall him explicitly saying he wasn't interested in the presidency, I could be wrong. Plus, a lot of people say that who end up running. If he does run, and this is the worst thing that can be imputed to him, he'll be in good shape. I'd be interested in watching that campaign.
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Old 01-17-2017, 05:28 PM
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I can deny having the slightest idea what you are talking about. I cannot deny harboring dark suspicion as to why you are trying to shoe-horn the "charter school" stuff into the conversation. Further, I wonder if you realized, picking your username, that it anagrams to "moran"?
Wow, my first post on Straight Dope and I've managed to trigger a curmudgeon? I didn't know I could be so calculating and conniving.

I suppose I'll play "elucidator" for today. According to WaPo, which I'm sure you read regularly, Arizona locked out three of the top ten best high schools in the country. BASIS Scottsdale placed in second, BASIS Tuscon North in third, and BASIS Oro Valley in sixth.

And I would have hoped, given your username, that you would have researched BASIS some on your own before forming an opinion. Sad!
  #63  
Old 01-17-2017, 11:36 PM
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Oh, no, you said, "sad." Now he's gonna---make a bad joke. That's what he does.
'
Welcome to the SDMB, I see you've met elucidator.
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:51 PM
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Wrong on most counts. I'd like a citation for "non-progressive, Blue Dog type" because that's really far off the actual track record for both HRC and Cory Booker. What scorecard(s) are you using?

Progressive Punch gives Booker a "lifetime" score of 97.99, not as progressive as, say Elizabeth Warren (99.13), but a whole hell of a lot higher than any recognized "Blue Dog". Joe Manchin (72.92) he ain't.
Thanks for providing the link. Couldn't help but wonder how they come up with the score and according to them on their website:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProgressivePunch
Using publicly published data from Congressional Quarterly, we averaged a couple of different types of scores that they published, looking at all votes going back to January 1, 1991. After going through a number of steps and gyrations, we came up with a list of eleven hard-core progressive United States Senators (11% of that body) and 37 hard-core progressive United States Representatives (about 9% of that body). The algorithm that we've used to come up with these progressive scores is as follows: We take ANY VOTE in which a majority of the progressives we've identified--so in the House say, if there were no absences, it would be 19 of 37--voted in opposition to a majority of the Republican caucus and have that vote qualify for the database. The same process is used in the Senate. So, non-ideological votes such as National Groundhog Day: 429-0 with 6 absences, do not qualify for the database. ANY vote in which a majority of progressives in the progressive cohort listed just below here votes against a majority of Republicans qualifies for the database and is included in the Overall % scores.
Progressive scores are purely based on when a politician vote against the republicans on an issue, which a majority of a "hard-core" group of progressives they have identified, has voted against. ProgressivePunch selects this group "through a number of steps and gyrations" and here is the list of their 11 hard-core progressive control group for the senate:

WI Tammy Baldwin
OH Sherrod Brown
IL Richard Durbin
MN Al Franken
NJ Cory Booker
HI Mazie Hirono
MA Ed Markey
OR Jeff Merkley
RI Jack Reed
VT Bernie Sanders
MA Elizabeth Warren


Interesting, Cory Booker is on the list. What exactly were the numerous steps and gyrations to come up with this list?

And why score only on votes in which the majority of the above voted against Republicans? Doesn't even identify if the the vote was for or against a progressive issue at all.

Scoring on this website seems a bit flawed.

Last edited by NiceGuyJack; 01-17-2017 at 11:52 PM.
  #65  
Old 01-18-2017, 09:44 AM
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Here's a scorecard with a different methodology, based on sponsorship and cosponsorship of bills.

Booker is shown ranking about in the middle of the pack for Democrats.

Note that what govtrack is calling "ideology" in their chart corresponds more closely to intra-caucus coordination, which is certainly an indicator for ideological fidelity, but may not be a decisive one. It is certainly possible in a heavily partisan Congress to work entirely within your own party and yet moderate the product away from your ideological extreme. It's also possible to coordinate more broadly between groups as a strong advocate for a political principle.

In any case, I think it would be difficult to make the argument that Booker is not reliably Democratic in his legislative activities.

Last edited by xenophon41; 01-18-2017 at 09:45 AM. Reason: spellen and rightin
  #66  
Old 01-18-2017, 10:05 AM
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That's all very well, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand, the value of BASIS in Arizona?
  #67  
Old 01-18-2017, 10:18 AM
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Yo 'luc', Imma let you finish but ronam posted one a the best charter school posts of all time!
  #68  
Old 02-01-2019, 09:32 AM
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Updating this thread:
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Sen. Cory Booker, a New Jersey Democrat who rose to prominence as Newark's charismatic and ambitious mayor, announced Friday that he is running for president.
Booker chose the first day of Black History Month to launch his campaign, timing that nods to Booker's own heritage and suggests he will put it at the center of his pitch to voters.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/01/polit...020/index.html
  #69  
Old 02-01-2019, 10:22 AM
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He isn't a paragon of virtue...but who is? I'm going to vote the lesser of the Democratic evils in the primary, then the lesser of two evils come November.
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Old 02-01-2019, 10:28 AM
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That "lesser of two evils" line always grates on me, as if it falsely implies that some people aren't evil at all, but especially that whatever the winner does will be some sort of evil. That's not just unwarrantedly cynical, it's depressing.

How about voting for the person who will make the country, and the world, closer to what you think it should be? I plan to vote for "the better candidate" (of two, dammit).
  #71  
Old 02-01-2019, 10:44 AM
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That "lesser of two evils" line always grates on me, as if it falsely implies that some people aren't evil at all, but especially that whatever the winner does will be some sort of evil. That's not just unwarrantedly cynical, it's depressing.

How about voting for the person who will make the country, and the world, closer to what you think it should be? I plan to vote for "the better candidate" (of two, dammit).
Same thing-different words.
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Old 02-01-2019, 10:46 AM
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I am so SICK of hearing about lesser of two evils! Life is complicated. Who has an absolutely 100% perfect spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend? Who lives in a 100% perfect house or apartment? Who has a 100% job? No one, of course? So why do we demand that a politician live up to some magical unicorn fantasy?
  #73  
Old 02-01-2019, 10:53 AM
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Same thing-different words.
Realism vs. cynicism. Not the same.
  #74  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:06 PM
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Well, now Spartacus is in the race. Wonder if the second black President will generate the same enthusiasm as the first.

Not that black people who get out and vote won't vote for him almost no matter what. More, will they get out and vote.

As I have said about other candidates, at least he's not 70.

Regards,
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  #75  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:19 PM
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Well, now Spartacus is in the race. Wonder if the second black President will generate the same enthusiasm as the first.

Not that black people who get out and vote won't vote for him almost no matter what. More, will they get out and vote.

As I have said about other candidates, at least he's not 70.

Regards,
Shodan
I can't speak for "black people," but as a white guy, I had plenty of enthusiasm for Obama unrelated to his race. I'll take a look at Booker, but even on his best day, I doubt he can rise up to the level of Obama. I don't think it's fair to set the goalposts that high.
  #76  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:20 PM
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Wonder if the second black President will generate the same enthusiasm as the first.
Of course not, but that would be a good thing. It would help mean that having a black anything, including a President, is just normal. It would help put the hard racists that your party has allowed to feel comfortable back under their rocks, and encourage its soft racists just drop it and move on.
  #77  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:47 PM
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I can't speak for "black people," but as a white guy, I had plenty of enthusiasm for Obama unrelated to his race. I'll take a look at Booker, but even on his best day, I doubt he can rise up to the level of Obama. I don't think it's fair to set the goalposts that high.
I mention it because one of the reasons we don't hear much about President Hillary is that black people didn't turn out to vote for her the way they did for Obama. So maybe it's not fair to set the goalposts that high, but they're there anyway.

If people voted for Obama because he had a high level of charisma, and because he was black, and Booker has a lower level of charisma and is black, will voters, particularly black voters, react to him as they did to Obama, or to Hillary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves
Quote:
Wonder if the second black President will generate the same enthusiasm as the first.
Of course not, but that would be a good thing. It would help mean that having a black anything, including a President, is just normal.
Same answer. If it's perfectly normal, then he doesn't get any bonus points for being the second black President, and blacks turn out for him the same way they would for any other Democrat. Hillary was any other Democrat.

Early days, of course, and we'll see if he gets any traction against Kamala Harris or Joe Biden or Bernie or whoever else.

Regards,
Shodan

Last edited by Shodan; 02-01-2019 at 02:47 PM.
  #78  
Old 02-01-2019, 02:58 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is online now
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If it's perfectly normal, then he doesn't get any bonus points for being the second black President, and blacks turn out for him the same way they would for any other Democrat.
I was referring to white attitudes. The white vote is much larger than the black vote, as you may know, and their views matter more electorally. Dissipating the racist vote means more to the final numbers than increasing black turnout.
  #79  
Old 02-03-2019, 12:02 AM
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Evidently Booker has an imaginary friend named T-Bone. I guess that's one way to stand out as unique in a crowded field.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:52 AM
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Corey Booker is done. He is completely mealy mouthed when confronted with non pc topics, and now he is visibly seen as backing illiberal policies related to his pharma donors will and not the will of his constituents and those of the general liberal body.

D O N E.

He's too much of a weasel to win, unworthy. I'm not saying we need the second coming of Bernie, but we need someone with a bit more spine, and it's not Corey.
I tend to agree, he's just another person jumping out of the clown car.

Meanwhile Howard Shultz is getting the limelight, and the face of the Democratic party for now, at least in the media is Ralph Northam.
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Old 02-03-2019, 09:13 AM
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I used to want a liberal president, now I just want a competent president.

What good is a pure liberal if they can't accomplish anything?

I want someone who can get shit done. But realistically the democrats in congress aren't going to pass anything truly progressive or meaningful. So it doesn't matter who is president, as long as its a democrat.
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  #82  
Old 02-03-2019, 09:36 AM
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I get the feeling that if Alexandria Ocasio Cortez were 35 years old, instead of 29, she would get the nomination, and she would probably kick Trump's ass all over the place in a general. Ocasio-Cortez is the Bernie of 2020, except that she's unfortunately not in the running and won't be even in 2024.

I know that Kamala Harris is all the rage right now, and I think she's a clear early favorite in the Democratic party. But the campaign is long and brutal. We shall see.
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Old 02-03-2019, 10:32 AM
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I tend to agree, he's just another person jumping out of the clown car.

Meanwhile Howard Shultz is getting the limelight, and the face of the Democratic party for now, at least in the media is Ralph Northam.
LOL. Thanks for this dispatch from the fantasy world of Trump.
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Old 02-03-2019, 11:40 AM
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I get the feeling that if Alexandria Ocasio Cortez were 35 years old, instead of 29, she would get the nomination, and she would probably kick Trump's ass all over the place in a general. Ocasio-Cortez is the Bernie of 2020, except that she's unfortunately not in the running and won't be even in 2024.

I know that Kamala Harris is all the rage right now, and I think she's a clear early favorite in the Democratic party. But the campaign is long and brutal. We shall see.
I doubt it. I don't think the left would accept AOC as president with so little experience. Maybe after she had 10+ years in the house, but not right now.

Obama got ragged for lacking experience but he had 20 years as a community organizer, state senator and senator before becoming president.

An issue with Harris is some people feel she is just saying the right things to win the progressive vote but doesn't actually believe any of them.
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  #85  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:15 PM
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It will be interesting to see whether Booker says anything when Betsy Devos, Trump's nominee for Education Secretary, has her confirmation hearing, and also how he votes on her confirmation. Booker has been a major proponent of school choice in Newark, where charter schools expanded rapidly while he was mayor. He touted charters as a necessary means of giving poor students educational opportunity. Devos is also a big supporter of charter schools, so this may help us determine whether Booker is still willing to break with the left.
The debate over charter schools and voucher schools gets complicated because there's so much variation in details. Framing the question as Are Vouchers Good or Bad? demonstrates ignorance on the topic. For example, Betsy DeVos especially promotes her fraudster friends — I think both she and her brother should be locked up in prison. Assuming that a progressive who likes voucher/charter would like DeVos is absurd.

And indeed, Senator Booker voted No on confirming that criminal. UIAM every Democrat along with Collins and Murkowski voted to reject this preposterous woman, who was then confirmed from the dais by Mike Pence after a vote of 50-50 . (I think Jeff Sessions, who was himself a nominee and recused himself for most of the confirmation votes, unrecused himself long enough to vote for DeVos.)

Another poster mentions Basis schools in Arizona.
Code:
        Asian  Amerind Black  Latino  White   Mixed
Arizona  3%     5%      5%      45%     39%     3%
BASIS   32%     0%      3%      10%     51%     2%
Google "cherrypicking."

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Evidently Booker has an imaginary friend named T-Bone.
T-Bone is apparently a composite or a metaphor, akin to Joe the Plumber or Archie Bunker. Abraham Lincoln is among famous orators to employ such devices, IIRC.

True, the tactic is dangerous in post-rational America.

Last edited by septimus; 02-03-2019 at 03:16 PM.
  #86  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:39 PM
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First time I heard about Booker was reading an Economist article which mentioned he might be gay. I watched one of his speeches and I can see how he might come off as not strictly straight. We may discover yet one more level of crassness the Republicans are capable off.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 02-03-2019 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:49 PM
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T-Bone is apparently a composite or a metaphor, akin to Joe the Plumber or Archie Bunker. Abraham Lincoln is among famous orators to employ such devices, IIRC.

True, the tactic is dangerous in post-rational America.
So the fabulism about T-Bone is a minor sin akin to (but less worse than) our president's constant, fictional encounters with weeping tough guys, but it does rub people the wrong way for good reasons.



First, using fictional(ized) people in your political speeches could just be rhetoric, but if you don't make it clear that these characters and their words/actions are being used rhetorically, it sure looks like you're using them as evidence, or at least anecdata. Innocent enough, I guess, when you're just doing platitudes like Reagan invoking the turret gunner; less so when you're using these stories to hype your past accomplishments or justify policy proposals (Reagan again).



But then it gets even shadier when you're presenting a fictional(ish) black man who's, well, playing to stereotype -- see Clement Price's comments here:
Quote:
As a black man, I say, 'Of all the creations you're gonna come up with to depict Newark, why this guy? Why contribute to that mythology?' I never spoke to the mayor about this -- I just said to myself, I wonder if Cory's youth and upbringing are so privileged that, not unlike whites, he has an imagined view of blacks which is shot through with contradictions.
It bothers some black people, and has for years -- that quote's from 2008.



So it's a problem, and he'll probably have to deal with it -- and we'll learn something by watching him do so. (Shodan will doubtless keep calling him "Spartacus," too; it's just one of those things.)
  #88  
Old 02-03-2019, 10:55 PM
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When I hear T-Bone, I imagine a short, stocky, slow-witted bald man from Queens.
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Old 02-03-2019, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
When I hear T-Bone, I imagine a short, stocky, slow-witted bald man from Queens.
Heh! By the way, the Jerk Store called ...
  #90  
Old 02-07-2019, 01:08 AM
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septimus septimus is offline
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Originally Posted by NiceGuyJack View Post
And why score only on votes in which the majority of the above voted against Republicans? Doesn't even identify if the the vote was for or against a progressive issue at all.

Scoring on this website seems a bit flawed.
Have you ever tried to develop a statistic like that? If you did, I think you'd want clear objective criteria, perhaps a computer program that could spit out numbers thoughtlessly. Otherwise, what will you do? Exercise your own judgment about whether a bill is "progressive" or not? Details and chicanery often mean that research is required just to understand the relationship between a bill's title and its purpose. (Upthread, for example, some Doper thought pro-charter school Booker would be a hypocrite not to vote for pro-charter DeVos. )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I knew zero about Booker until I caught his "Spartacus" comment on YouTube. I found the comment a tad too vainglorious ... especially since, in the same sentence, he implicated some other progressives in the "martyrdom."
  #91  
Old 02-07-2019, 02:35 PM
Thing Fish Thing Fish is offline
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Another difficulty with scores of this nature is that Congressfolk can only vote on what they can vote on. If single-payer health care were put to a vote, for instance, that vote count would nicely illuminate the distinction between progressive and moderate Democrats. But as long as the Republicans control the Senate, that vote will never happen. So these scores are a pretty blunt instrument when it comes to evaluating ideological distinctions between members of the out-party.
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