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Old 04-24-2017, 09:57 AM
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Antifa

What do Dopers think about Antifa?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:08 AM
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What do you think?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:10 AM
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What do you think?
I think they're terrible people - advocating and effecting violence against their political opponents.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:15 AM
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1. Are you talking about Antifaschistische Aktion?
2. What is being debated here?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:15 AM
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I think this is more of a MPSIMS OP and follow up.

Moved from Great Debates to MPSIMS.

[/moderating]
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:20 AM
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1. Are you talking about Antifaschistische Aktion?
2. What is being debated here?
1. Yes, at least the American wing of it.

2. I wanted to know if Dopers were aware of them, ashamed, proud, indifferent, etc.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:23 AM
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I don't know what that is.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:23 AM
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I think they're terrible people - advocating and effecting violence against their political opponents.
My bold. By political opponents, you really mean neo-nazis, right?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:23 AM
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I didn't even know there was an American branch-got any cites about them? Perhaps their website, some news articles etc.?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:26 AM
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My bold. By political opponents, you really mean neo-nazis, right?
Do you consider Ann Coulter a neo-nazi?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:33 AM
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Do you consider Ann Coulter a neo-nazi?
Is this you hinting at what side you are taking in the OP you posted?
Personally, opposing Ann(Bugfuck Crazy) Coulter is a big plus in my book.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:35 AM
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Okay, let's get things straight: By antifa, you mean who? Where? Antifa is not a cohesive, uniform group, you know that right? Antifa in Italy is different from antifa in Germany is different from antifa in Norway. I have no clue about antifa in America

Has Ann Coulter been beat up by american antifa members?

My own experience with antifa has been getting beat up by paramilitary police because I was suspected of being antifa (I'm not), and norwegian anarchists beating up russian neo-nazis sending them packing, because they set up shop just around the corner to spread their hate. Some antifa are complete crazies, some are mostly harmless, most are somewhere inbetween.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:37 AM
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Do you consider Ann Coulter a neo-nazi?
No. But I'm anti-Coulter just the same.

Now answer the original question asked.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:41 AM
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I didn't even know there was an American branch-got any cites about them? Perhaps their website, some news articles etc.?
Sure:

NYC Antifa twitter

Berkeley Antifa facebook

The "Battle of Berkely" clash on April 15, 2017 (note: there's tons of video of this, I just grabbed a few random ones):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0UVrNc_D0k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFCrP85Qqxk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WI0ZBp64pU


Mother Jones: I Went Behind the Front Lines With the Far-Right Agitators Who Invaded Berkeley
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:41 AM
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Are they a force at all in this country? Not only is there no wiki entry for the American branch, there is no mention of them at all in the main article at all. What have they done here that has you all in a tizzy?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:45 AM
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My bold. By political opponents, you really mean neo-nazis, right?
Not really. It's one of those labels which is used by a number of violence-advocating left-wing groups who will call a "fascist" anybody they happen to dislike. The name comes from "we dislike fascism" but the actions are more along the lines of "we want to beat you up therefore we'll call you a fascist so we can justify beating you up".
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:46 AM
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Okay, let's get things straight: By antifa, you mean who? Where? Antifa is not a cohesive, uniform group, you know that right? Antifa in Italy is different from antifa in Germany is different from antifa in Norway. I have no clue about antifa in America
I'm talking about the ones here in America.


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Has Ann Coulter been beat up by american antifa members?
Not yet, but UC Berkeley cancelled her speaking visit because they were afraid Antifa might harm her
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:47 AM
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Personally, opposing Ann(Bugfuck Crazy) Coulter is a big plus in my book.
Is threatening her with harm for speaking a big plus in your book?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:48 AM
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I didn't even know there was an American branch-got any cites about them? Perhaps their website, some news articles etc.?
Probably more fake news.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:49 AM
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Now answer the original question asked.
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By political opponents, you really mean neo-nazis, right?
No, by "political opponents" I mean political opponents of the radical Left. People like Ann Coulter. I think Nava covered it well in post #16.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:53 AM
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Are they a force at all in this country? Not only is there no wiki entry for the American branch, there is no mention of them at all in the main article at all. What have they done here that has you all in a tizzy?
We posted within a minute of each other. Does my post #14 answer this question, or would you like additional information?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:56 AM
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I can't use Twitter or Facebook at work, so I'll check them out later. The amateur vids weren't very informative and they certainly weren't impartial in their "reporting". The Mother Jones article was interesting, considering that it was a good exposé on right-wing agitators in general.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:57 AM
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We posted within a minute of each other. Does my post #14 answer this question, or would you like additional information?
How about their website, or some actual news stories about what they have done that so annoy you?
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:02 AM
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How about their website, or some actual news stories about what they have done that so annoy you?
I don't know if they have a traditional website aside from Twitter and Facebook accounts, so you might be out of luck there. Did you read the NYT article that Shodan posted? Are you allowed to read the NYT at work? If not, I'll quote some bits here:

Quote:
In explaining why it had canceled a speech by Ann Coulter scheduled for next week, the University of California, Berkeley, said that it had “very specific intelligence” that Ms. Coulter might be in “grave danger.”

Days after fights broke out between anarchists and right-wing groups near campus, and a couple of months after masked protesters smashed windows and set fires to stop a speech by the incendiary right-wing writer Milo Yiannopoulos, the police are preparing for a possible replay if Ms. Coulter follows through on her vow to show up anyway on Thursday.

Leftist activists on and off campus, including a loosely organized group calling itself Antifa, for “anti-fascist,” are threatening to do anything they can to block Ms. Coulter from speaking. Right-wing supporters are gathering support on Facebook, making plans to come to the campus to defend her.
What they have done to annoy me is try to use violence against their political opponents, and as a tool to quash free speech.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:05 AM
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Not really. It's one of those labels which is used by a number of violence-advocating left-wing groups who will call a "fascist" anybody they happen to dislike. The name comes from "we dislike fascism" but the actions are more along the lines of "we want to beat you up therefore we'll call you a fascist so we can justify beating you up".
Where I'm from it's meant as anarchist groups demonstrating against and effecting violence specifically against neo-nazis and white supremacists. But as I tried to explain, there is no such thing as the Antifa, capital letter. In europe, there's also a lot of overlap between antifa-groups and peaceful anarchist groups, demonstraters and squatting groups not directly related to antifa.

So I guess I feel the op and subsequent posts by HurricaneDikta is overly generalizing of a very loose, flat "organization", comprised of distantly related, often quite different, groups who might share an open network and sometimes organize things in concert.

HurricaneDitka, have you had any form of contact with anyone associated with any antifa, or a similar, group? I have, and they vary a lot.

Last edited by Plumpudding; 04-24-2017 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:07 AM
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Is threatening her with harm for speaking a big plus in your book?
So we're going that route, are we? I already said that I didn't know about them, you say they opposed Ann Coulter, I say "sounds good to me", and you give with the rest of the story and the gotcha question "Is threatening her with harm for speaking a big plus in your book?"

"What do you think about that German Shepard that barked at those kids?"
"I don't about that event, but I see no problem"
"That dog attacked those poor kids and sent two of them to the hospital! Is this something you actually approve of??"
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:07 AM
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Ok, so... the Mother Jones article clearly portrays the alt-right as the primary aggressors, and otherwise, it seems like random chaotic violence. So unless you are prepared to argue that protesting a protest is in and of itself, fascist, (or ''horrible'') I remain unconvinced that American Antifa is the work of the devil.

Generally speaking, I believe a group should be judged by what a majority of its members do, as well as what it officially sanctions and how it responds to acts of violence within its own community. Do you have evidence that violence against Ann Coulter was officially sanctioned by Antifa? I'll settle for evidence that the alleged terrorists were members of Antifa, and that Antifa did nothing in response.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:09 AM
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HurricaneDitka, have you had any form of contact with anyone associated with any antifa, or similar, group? I have, and they vary a lot.
I've just read what they've posted on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc. I can agree with "they vary a lot". Let's direct our conversation towards those "Antifa" groups that are threatening violence in response to Ann Coulter speaking at UC Berkeley this week.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:12 AM
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What they have done to annoy me is try to use violence against their political opponents, and as a tool to quash free speech.
Any comment about the vids you posted showing the far right doing the same thing(that bit where the guy in the "Jesus" jacket kicks the shit out of the unidentified victim on the ground comes to mind), or the Mother Jones article you linked to that reported on the words and actions of the far right?
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:12 AM
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I've just read what they've posted on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc. I can agree with "they vary a lot". Let's direct our conversation towards those "Antifa" groups that are threatening violence in response to Ann Coulter speaking at UC Berkeley this week.
Very good then. Any person or group of persons that threatens violence in response to a person spewing ignorant nonsense is in the wrong. Violence is not an acceptable means to quash ideas we don't agree with. I'm going to assume you're equally outraged by the violence of the alt-right toward Antifa. However you don't seem to be asking anyone's opinion on the alt-right group who protested that day.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 04-24-2017 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:14 AM
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I've just read what they've posted on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc. I can agree with "they vary a lot". Let's direct our conversation towards those "Antifa" groups that are threatening violence in response to Ann Coulter speaking at UC Berkeley this week.
Antifa and other groups, you mean? Can you think of anything at all the Ann Coulter has said and/or advocated concerning violence to others?
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:15 AM
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Personally, I'm against that sort of thing, even when it concerns a vile creature such as Ann Coulter or Milo Whatshisface. I hope I haven't stepped on any toes and don't lose my SDMB knee-jerk liberal credentials.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:17 AM
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I've just read what they've posted on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc. I can agree with "they vary a lot". Let's direct our conversation towards those "Antifa" groups that are threatening violence in response to Ann Coulter speaking at UC Berkeley this week.
Ah, so we're only talking about those antifascists.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:19 AM
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Oh, and the saddest thing about that article you posted:

Quote:
Away from the fighting, there is an "empathy tent" set up by a small group of people with a sign saying, "Want to talk? We listen." It is empty.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:22 AM
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"I don't really like to think of it as a murder. It was terminating Tiller in the 203rd trimester. ... I am personally opposed to shooting abortionists, but I don't want to impose my moral values on others." --on the murder of Kansas abortion doctor George Tiller, FOX News interview, June 22, 2009

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"We need to execute people like (John Walker Lindh) in order to physically intimidate liberals."

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity."

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building."

"I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East and sending liberals to Guantanamo."
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:29 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Violence is not an acceptable means to quash ideas we don't agree with.
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Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
Personally, I'm against that sort of thing, even when it concerns a vile creature such as Ann Coulter or Milo Whatshisface.
This is what I hoped / wanted to see: that there is still a consensus against violence in response to speech.

ETA: maybe "consensus" is too strong a word

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-24-2017 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:32 AM
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I'm going to assume you're equally outraged by the violence of the alt-right toward Antifa.
Yes. The Berkeley riot definitely had violence coming from both sides.

ETA: I think it bodes ill for our civil society when both sides start gearing up with home-made riot gear for their protests and marches. The next evolution is probably more of the John Brown Gun Club and pretty soon we're like Venezuela.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-24-2017 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:32 AM
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This is what I hoped / wanted to see: that there is still a consensus against violence in response to speech.

ETA: maybe "consensus" is too strong a word
the consensus is that it is wrong from both sides of the equation, as shown by the links you provided.
Are you part of this consensus?
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:38 AM
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The only thing I saw was a female Antifa protester punching a male neo-Nazi, who punched her back. The neo-Nazis (and a troubling number of online folks) seemed to find that fine and were gleeful about it.

I have a problem with both actions, just to be clear.

Protest all you like. Believe anything you like. Do not beat each other up, you'll just bring the cops down on everyone and lose public support for the right to protest.

Last edited by GrumpyBunny; 04-24-2017 at 11:39 AM. Reason: typo and clarity
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:45 AM
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the consensus is that it is wrong from both sides of the equation, as shown by the links you provided.
Are you part of this consensus?
Yes. Protests / marches / rallies should be non-violent. Right-wingers shouldn't throw stuff at / pepper spray / hit leftists because they're saying stuff they dislike and leftists shouldn't throw stuff at / pepper spray / hit right-wingers because they're saying stuff they dislike.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:45 AM
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If these antifa knuckleheads show up and fight the Trump knuckleheads (like the ones who showed up in Berkeley wearing combat helmets and pulling knives), my reaction is, "You two have all the fun you want, and leave the rest of society alone!"

Of course I don't support the use of violence in protests. But I will say that I sense that the OP's outrage at left-wing violent groups is probably a matter of complaining about a speck in someone else's eye while there's a plank in one's own. Right-wing political violence is surely a much bigger problem than these no-count hooligans.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:46 AM
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Yes. Protests / marches / rallies should be non-violent. Right-wingers shouldn't throw stuff at / pepper spray / hit leftists because they're saying stuff they dislike and leftists shouldn't throw stuff at / pepper spray / hit right-wingers because they're saying stuff they dislike.
And what about those who openly advocate violence towards others of a particular political/religious/philosophical bent?
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:47 AM
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Let me help you out here, Hurr. You don't know much about lefties, or you would know that amongst us, Berkeley AKA "Berzerkely" is not the point of the spear, it is not the beating heart of the left. It is Berkeley, the first American city to have a foreign policy. We are entertained by Berkeley, we are not instructed, we are not led.

The smartest and cruelest thing Berkeley radicals could have done to Anne of Green Goebbels is to ignore her. They ain't that smart.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:52 AM
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This is what I hoped / wanted to see: that there is still a consensus against violence in response to speech.

ETA: maybe "consensus" is too strong a word
I suspect most people feel this way. The ones that don't get a lot of attention (which is probably at least in part why they do it), but behind the scenes are a bunch of normal folks who find that behavior abhorrent.
Quote:
ETA: I think it bodes ill for our civil society when both sides start gearing up with home-made riot gear for their protests and marches.
Agreed. That story was pretty appalling all around. Not just that violence became the day's norm, but that the police apparently ignored it and the surrounding students seemed to take it in stride. As far as university culture goes, I'm of the opinion that exposure to ideas we hate is pretty critical to the intellectual development of young people, and a great opportunity for students to learn critical thinking. Universities can and should breed controversy, and they should be able to do it safely. The problem is that school administrations really seem to view their chief responsibility as satisfying customers, as opposed to nurturing learning in a safe environment. It really is a fundamental question of the purpose of a university.

I'm not on the ''real problem is our fascist PC culture'' side because students have a right to feel safe (in the case of Milo, for example, he had a history of harassing individual students - he absolutely should have not been allowed to come to campus, and the fact that he then individually targeted and endangered the safety of a trans woman attending his event was a massive failure on the administration's part.) Administrators are in the unenviable position of trying to figure out what poses a legitimate threat and what doesn't, especially in a culture that can apparently erupt in violence at any moment. And I can empathize with that trans woman finally finding a place in her life where she is accepted and understood, not wanting someone else's hatred and ignorance to encroach upon the only bit of safety she's ever known. In some cases, when we talk about ''safe spaces'' we mean that very literally. Some people have precious few spheres of life where they are not the continued victims of harassment and assault, and it makes perfect sense to want to hold onto that one space where they have the freedom to be themselves.

However I think there's some grain of truth to the idea that young people are increasingly being taught, through their own filtered social media, news, and academic world, that they have a right to shut down any speech they find upsetting. It's one of the reasons I left Facebook - the echo chamber infuriated me. And the most offended tend to be the most privileged. Because they have the luxury of working up the outrage, I guess.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 04-24-2017 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:15 PM
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What I would like to know, regarding Berkly, is why, in both instances, the police did nothing to intervene when things started to escalate.
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:16 PM
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2. I wanted to know if Dopers were aware of them, ashamed, proud, indifferent, etc.
Not aware of them in the least. Where might I run across Antifa?
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:20 PM
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I(snip) What they have done to annoy me is try to use violence against their political opponents, and as a tool to quash free speech.
I'm trying to imagine a reason for excluding this kind of information from your OP. If you had been more forthcoming up front, you might have had less of the kind of crap per below.

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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
So we're going that route, are we? I already said that I didn't know about them, you say they opposed Ann Coulter, I say "sounds good to me", and you give with the rest of the story and the gotcha question "Is threatening her with harm for speaking a big plus in your book?"

"What do you think about that German Shepard that barked at those kids?"
"I don't about that event, but I see no problem"
"That dog attacked those poor kids and sent two of them to the hospital! Is this something you actually approve of??"
I personally don't think HD was trying to make a gotcha out of this thread, it just came out that way because of the weird way he framed it by leaving all information out of the OP. So now instead of discussing the perfectly cromulent issue of allowing free speech for people whose views we find repellent, we get this kind of idiotic back and forth.

Well done OP. (Actually, crappily done.)
  #48  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:23 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
I'm trying to imagine a reason for excluding this kind of information from your OP. If you had been more forthcoming up front, you might have had less of the kind of crap per below.
I've tried to do it both ways before, and I seem to get some degree of crap no matter what. When I include my perspective in the OP, I get accused of poisoning the well. This time I didn't do that, and I got this reaction.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-24-2017 at 12:25 PM.
  #49  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:28 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Originally Posted by Latro View Post
What I would like to know, regarding Berkly, is why, in both instances, the police did nothing to intervene when things started to escalate.
The alt-right view on that seems to be that it's because the mayor is an Antifa supporter.
  #50  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:35 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
I can't use Twitter or Facebook at work, so I'll check them out later. The amateur vids weren't very informative and they certainly weren't impartial in their "reporting". The Mother Jones article was interesting, considering that it was a good exposé on right-wing agitators in general.
I find it richly entertaining that the amateur videos are not impartial, but Mother Jones is gospel.

Regards,
Shodan
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