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  #151  
Old 09-01-2019, 06:28 PM
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Worcestershire Sauce is apparently the hip e-flavour all the kids are into.

Now if only broccoli liquid extract could get somehow worked into e-juice.
  #152  
Old 09-02-2019, 12:35 PM
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"...studies have repeatedly shown that young people use e-cigarettes because of the flavors. If flavors didn’t exist, they say they wouldn’t vape.

Many of the more than 15,000 unique e-cigarette flavors have silly names, such as Honey Doo Doo, Booger Sugar and Barney Pebbles. Names that aren’t exactly aimed at an adult audience. Kids are also attracted to the mint and menthol flavors, long thought to be the purview of adults."


https://www.twincities.com/2019/08/1...ling-epidemic/
  #153  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:24 PM
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"...studies have repeatedly shown that young people use e-cigarettes because of the flavors. If flavors didn’t exist, they say they wouldn’t vape.

Many of the more than 15,000 unique e-cigarette flavors have silly names, such as Honey Doo Doo, Booger Sugar and Barney Pebbles. Names that aren’t exactly aimed at an adult audience. Kids are also attracted to the mint and menthol flavors, long thought to be the purview of adults."


https://www.twincities.com/2019/08/1...ling-epidemic/
Cannabis also has similar silly names.
  #154  
Old 09-02-2019, 05:01 PM
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"...studies have repeatedly shown that young people use e-cigarettes because of the flavors. If flavors didn’t exist, they say they wouldn’t vape.

Many of the more than 15,000 unique e-cigarette flavors have silly names, such as Honey Doo Doo, Booger Sugar and Barney Pebbles. Names that aren’t exactly aimed at an adult audience. Kids are also attracted to the mint and menthol flavors, long thought to be the purview of adults."


https://www.twincities.com/2019/08/1...ling-epidemic/
So why not just ban Juul? Or convenience store sales of tobacco products? Why is nicotine the one product that requires a flavor ban?
  #155  
Old 09-02-2019, 09:10 PM
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Cannabis also has similar silly names.
Really???

Rest
God
God's Gift
God's Treat
Bio-Jesus
Critical Mass
Cat Piss
Floppy Donged Gorilla
Hippie Crippler (actually that one's not too bad)
Afghooey
Connie Chung
Romulan
Girl Scout Cookies
Rockstar Master Kush


...ok maybe one or two dumb ones.
  #156  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:23 PM
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Michigan becomes first state to ban flavored e-cigarettes (WaPo article)
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Michigan on Wednesday became the first state in the nation to ban flavored e-cigarettes, a step the governor said was needed to protect young people from the potentially harmful effects of vaping.

Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D) said in an interview Tuesday that she ordered the ban after the state health department found youth vaping constituted a public health emergency. The action was officially announced Wednesday.

. . . Besides sweet flavors, the prohibition will also apply to vaping products that use mint and menthol flavors. It does not cover tobacco-flavored e-cigarettes, the governor’s aides said.

The ban, which covers both retail and online sales, will go into effect as soon as the health department issues rules, sometime in the next 30 days. It will last for six months, and can be renewed for another six months, according to the governor’s aides. In the meantime, they said, the health department will develop permanent regulations banning flavored e-cigarettes. The legislature could try to block those rules, but would face a veto, they added.

Whitmer also barred what she called misleading descriptions of vapor products as “clear,” “safe” and “healthy” and ordered the enforcement of an existing ban on billboard advertising for e-cigarettes.

While Michigan is the first state to prohibit sales of flavored e-cigarettes, several cities and communities have moved to restrict or ban sales of e-cigarettes. In late June, San Francisco became the first major city in the United States to ban the sale and distribution of all e-cigarettes; the ban goes into effect early next year.
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On Wednesday, vaping advocates denounced the Michigan ban as misguided and predicted it would lead to a massive black market for the banned products.

“This shameless attempt at backdoor prohibition will close down several hundred Michigan small businesses and could send tens of thousands of ex-smokers back to deadly combustible cigarettes,” Greg Conley, president of the American Vaping Association, a consumer group, said in a statement.

“These businesses and their customers will not go down without a fight,” he added. “We look forward to supporting the lawsuits that now appear necessary to protect the right of adults to access these harm reduction products.”

While many vaping advocates concede the long-term effects of e-cigarettes are not known, they say vaping is almost certainly safer than traditional smoking, which causes the deaths of more than 480,000 people a year in the United States.
  #157  
Old 09-04-2019, 05:34 PM
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We actually do something *not* clearly an unmitigatedly awful thing! Yay for MI! (Oh yeah, electing Whitmer would also count there too)

Last edited by Ambivalid; 09-04-2019 at 05:36 PM.
  #158  
Old 09-04-2019, 06:14 PM
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A second possible vaping-related death is under investigation in Oregon

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Health officials in Oregon are investigating the recent death of a person who had severe respiratory illness after vaping. If confirmed, it would be the second such death reported in the country.
. . .

The Oregon Health Authority reports the individual had used a vaping device purchased from a cannabis dispensary before becoming ill. The death occurred in July.
Summit County [OH] Public Health Urges Residents to Stop Using Vaping Products

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Summit County Public Health (SCPH) is urging residents to stop using any vape and/or e-cigarette devices immediately. Individuals from Ohio have been hospitalized with severe pulmonary illness. These individuals reported using vape products or dabbing (vaping marijuana oils, extracts, or concentrates) prior to hospitalization. However, at this time, the specifics of the products are unknown. Residents are strongly encouraged to not utilize any vaping products, especially those that contain tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) or cannabidiol (CBD).

Vaping and e-cigarette products of any kind contain cancer-causing chemicals, heavy metals such as nickel, tin, and lead, and chemical flavorings linked to serious lung disease. The long-term health impacts for using these products are unknown but the immediate dangers of vaping are becoming increasingly evident and alarming in Ohio and across the nation.
CDC warns against vaping after mysterious spike in lung illnesses

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The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) issued an advisory that "includes the recommendation that while this investigation is ongoing, if you are concerned about these specific health risks, consider refraining from the use of e-cigarette products" following the spike in illnesses.

The advisory, which was issued this past Friday, notes that as of Aug. 27, there were 215 possible cases from 25 states of lung disease which may be tied to vaping.
  #159  
Old 09-06-2019, 10:17 AM
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So a bunch of people got sick vaping contraband THC vape cartridges. Sounds like a perfect reason to ban Tooty Fruity nicotine vape juice.
  #160  
Old 09-06-2019, 06:14 PM
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Get your facts straight if you want to contribute to this debate. You are conflating to different points.
Jurisdictions are seeking to ban "Tooty Fruity nicotine vape juice" and suing the manufacturers and distributors because they appeal to and were being subtly marketed to underaged users.
The current spate of vape related illnesses seems to be (and the investigation is far from over) related to additives in some vape products; both "legitimate" and black market varieties.

mc

Last edited by mikecurtis; 09-06-2019 at 06:15 PM.
  #161  
Old 09-06-2019, 09:28 PM
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New study suggests the solvents used in vaping can cause serious damage to lung tissue, even without nicotine. It's the vaping itself that may be the problem, not the drugs.

"Vaping causes 'havoc' with lungs, study with mice finds"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/e-cig...mage-1.5270986
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  #162  
Old 09-07-2019, 05:03 AM
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Vaping has been around for awhile now, which leads to the question why the sudden appearance of lung disease now?

Of course, it may only appear sudden, there could have been diagnosed cases for some time now.

It could be that the damage builds over time and there is only now a pool of people who have been vaping long enough to show damage.

It might be that even though vaping is statistically less dangerous/damaging the damage occurs over a much shorter time period (months or a few years) than with tobacco (decades) so the link is more apparent.

Or maybe other things, which is why it is still being researched.
  #163  
Old 09-07-2019, 08:55 AM
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So a bunch of people got sick vaping contraband THC vape cartridges. Sounds like a perfect reason to ban Tooty Fruity nicotine vape juice.
"Many, though not all, of the patients who have fallen ill had used cannabis-derived vaping products, and some had also used nicotine-containing products. A smaller group reported using nicotine only."

http://npr.org/sections/health-shots...ss-has-doubled
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Originally Posted by Broomstick
Vaping has been around for awhile now, which leads to the question why the sudden appearance of lung disease now?

Of course, it may only appear sudden, there could have been diagnosed cases for some time now.
Another concern: while acute or subacute lung injury from vaping constituents has been found, there's also a serious concern about slowly developing long-term effects that might manifest many years down the line.

My advice to aspiring pathologists: do a fellowship in pulmonary pathology. Your expertise will come in handy later on (those considering a career as pulmonologists should also take heart - while your business model will take a hit as smoking continues to decline, you'll probably be able to make up some of the difference on vaping-related chronic lung disease.
  #164  
Old 09-08-2019, 10:15 AM
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, you'll probably be able to make up some of the difference on vaping-related chronic lung disease.
What a bold prediction.
  #165  
Old 09-08-2019, 01:33 PM
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It's not just a river in Egypt.

Oh, and not that they need another source of income, but personal injury lawyers could have a bonanza in coming years from class action suits and other actions.

I'm surprised I haven't yet seen TV ads from law firms soliciting vape clients over lung injuries. So far they've concentrated on suing over addiction and vaping device explosions/burn injuries.

Regardless, the price of vaping supplies will reflect the cost of paying settlements. And nicotine addicts will be in no position to complain.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 09-08-2019 at 01:35 PM.
  #166  
Old 09-08-2019, 02:41 PM
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The notion, that some seem to have, that inhaling anything but air* isn't almost certainly gonna have long term deleterious boggles my mind.
(*With the exception, maybe, of therapeutic drugs.)

CMC fnord!
  #167  
Old 09-09-2019, 07:36 PM
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The notion, that some seem to have, that inhaling anything but air* isn't almost certainly gonna have long term deleterious boggles my mind.
(*With the exception, maybe, of therapeutic drugs.)

CMC fnord!
When was the last day you breathed nothing but air, do you think? I have no doubt that there is some health effects from vaping and I really don't understand why anyone would think otherwise. What I don't see is that it's worse than smoking, alcohol or a liter of Pepsi a day.
  #168  
Old 09-09-2019, 07:43 PM
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I'm surprised I haven't yet seen TV ads from law firms soliciting vape clients over lung injuries. So far they've concentrated on suing over addiction and vaping device explosions/burn injuries.
.
I'm not surprised you're surprised but lawyers like a little more than chicken little hypothetical predictions before launching class action suits.
  #169  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:51 PM
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We could also decide that other activities far less harmful than smoking should be minimally or not at all regulated.

Why inflict workplace safety regulations on private industry, when the number of workers killed each year in the U.S. is less than one-hundredth the death toll from smoking? Those regulations are job killers!
Only a tiny number of people are harmed every year by accidents on amusement park rides. Stop regulating them too. Contaminated foods, adulterated supplement pills, Ikea dressers - we could go on and on. They're all way less harmful than smoking, and regulating them results in increased costs and inconvenience for consumers.

Or maybe we can craft reasonable rules in each instance to protect the public without giving in to special pleading.

Well said! Also worth noting: while current commercialized vape systems appear safer than cigarettes, the industry is unregulated and will undoubtedly make 'innovations' to make vaping more appealing/ addictive/ lucrative. Those 'improvrments' will only be tested in the real world. You are the assay animal in the toxicity test. Sound like a good thing? Maybe not...
  #170  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:16 PM
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I'm not surprised you're surprised but lawyers like a little more than chicken little hypothetical predictions before launching class action suits.
Beyond the fact that vaping-associated lung injuries are not "hypothetical" any longer, it turns out that law firms are already soliciting clients who say they've been harmed in this manner.

Looks like the "Happy Time"* might be coming to an end for the vaping industry. Regulatory and legal costs will be going up and undoubtedly be passed on to consumers.

*a term used by German U-boat crews to describe their early successes in WWII.
  #171  
Old 09-10-2019, 12:51 AM
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Well, I don't use juul, so we'll see how big an impact those lawsuits have on the wider industry.

Last edited by CarnalK; 09-10-2019 at 12:51 AM.
  #172  
Old 09-10-2019, 11:19 PM
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posted this in the MPSIMS thread. . .


There has just been another vape related death reported, bringing the current total to 6, and there are 450 cases in 33 different states that are being investigated.
So far there is no one thing linking all the cases together.
The NY State Health Dept has listed Vitamin E acetate as a likely culprit in most of the cases but cannot confirm a link to all the cases they are studying.
The CDC has not said anything yet about a possible cause. Their latest post is from 3 days ago

Quote:
CDC, FDA, state and local health departments, and other clinical and public health partners are investigating a multistate outbreak of pulmonary disease associated with e-cigarette product (devices, liquids, refill pods, and/or cartridges) use. This ongoing investigation seeks to identify the exposures, demographic, clinical, and laboratory features and behaviors of patients. All patients have reported e-cigarette product use. Some patients have reported using e-cigarettes containing cannabinoid products, such as THC. To date, the investigation has not identified any single substance or e-cigarette product that has been consistently associated with illness.

State health departments are working with FDA to enable collection of e-cigarette product specimens for testing at the U.S. FDA Forensic Chemistry Center.
Even tho this is getting alot of media attention right now, it could very well be that these illnesses have been happening all along and it is just now that TPTB are making the connection. The American Lung Association has been sounding the alarm for about 10 yrs now and in Jan 2018 the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine released a consensus study report that reviewed over 800 different studies that includes these findings
  • A study from the University of North Carolina found that the two primary ingredients found in e-cigarettes—propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin—are toxic to cells and that the more ingredients in an e-liquid, the greater the toxicity.
  • E-cigarettes produce a number of dangerous chemicals including acetaldehyde, acrolein, and formaldehyde. These aldehydes can cause lung disease, as well as cardiovascular (heart) disease.
  • E-cigarettes also contain acrolein, a herbicide primarily used to kill weeds. It can cause acute lung injury and COPD and may cause asthma and lung cancer.
  • Both the U.S. Surgeon General and the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine have warned about the risks of inhaling secondhand e-cigarette emissions, which are created when an e-cigarette user exhales the chemical cocktail created by e-cigarettes.
  • In 2016, the Surgeon General concluded that secondhand emissions contain, "nicotine; ultrafine particles; flavorings such as diacetyl, a chemical linked to serious lung disease; volatile organic compounds such as benzene, which is found in car exhaust; and heavy metals, such as nickel, tin, and lead."
  • The Food and Drug Administration has not found any e-cigarette to be safe and effective in helping smokers quit. If smokers are ready to quit smoking for good, they should call 1-800-QUIT NOW or talk with their doctor about finding the best way to quit using proven methods and FDA-approved treatments and counseling.
  #173  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:29 PM
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Zoinks this thread did not age well.
  #174  
Old 09-11-2019, 02:26 PM
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And now Trump wants to ban flavored vapes. Didn't Republicans once decry "nanny state" regulation?
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Last edited by Akaj; 09-11-2019 at 02:26 PM.
  #175  
Old 09-11-2019, 04:48 PM
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Didn't Republicans once decry "nanny state" regulation?
Republicans have all been run thru the Trumpmogrifier, so they bear little resemblance to the actual Republicans of any previous era.

The story so far:
a) It's not clear that vaping is an effective way to wean off nicotine, or even tobacco.
b) Unexplained acute respiratory debility and deaths are occurring, credibly attributed to vaping, in fairly significant numbers.

So the core assertion of this thread, that Vaping Saves Lives has not been reasonably established.

I await further data. But would in the meantime counsel people desiring to get off tobacco to stick with traditional nicotine gum or patches along with peer support.

Last edited by Qadgop the Mercotan; 09-11-2019 at 04:49 PM.
  #176  
Old 09-11-2019, 04:50 PM
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Shit, if three deaths is all it took, wait until I tell these guys about guns.
  #177  
Old 09-11-2019, 05:13 PM
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I await further data. But would in the meantime counsel people desiring to get off tobacco to stick with traditional nicotine gum or patches along with peer support.
Those aren't particularly useful either though, are they?
  #178  
Old 09-11-2019, 05:23 PM
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Shit, if three deaths is all it took, wait until I tell these guys about guns.
Tobacco kills 500000 americans a year, 50000 by second hand smoke. They know.
  #179  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:44 PM
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I await further data. But would in the meantime counsel people desiring to get off tobacco to stick with traditional nicotine gum or patches along with peer support.
Those aren't particularly useful either though, are they?
Yes and no.

Truth is, there are NO highly effective methods for getting off any form of addiction. The success rate, even for the most effective methods, is under 20% per attempt. Which is why addicts typically need multiple attempts to quit before they finally do so for good, and why relapses are so common.

Nictoine gum and patches are, at present, two of the more effective means to end a tobacco addiction. Their success rate, per attempt, is still under 20%. There are other methods that are even worse than that.

Treating addiction is hard. There are no quick and easy fixes.
  #180  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:57 PM
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Yes and no.

Truth is, there are NO highly effective methods for getting off any form of addiction. The success rate, even for the most effective methods, is under 20% per attempt. Which is why addicts typically need multiple attempts to quit before they finally do so for good, and why relapses are so common.

Nictoine gum and patches are, at present, two of the more effective means to end a tobacco addiction. Their success rate, per attempt, is still under 20%. There are other methods that are even worse than that.

Treating addiction is hard. There are no quick and easy fixes.
This is true, which is why if vaping does work for a particular smoker, then I support it.
  #181  
Old 09-11-2019, 07:04 PM
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I will say that getting a new generation hooked on nicotine, then banning the most preferred delivery systems (flavored vapes), was a master stroke by the cigarette and blunt industries.

Last edited by JohnT; 09-11-2019 at 07:05 PM.
  #182  
Old 09-11-2019, 08:11 PM
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Yes and no.

Truth is, there are NO highly effective methods for getting off any form of addiction. The success rate, even for the most effective methods, is under 20% per attempt. Which is why addicts typically need multiple attempts to quit before they finally do so for good, and why relapses are so common.

Nictoine gum and patches are, at present, two of the more effective means to end a tobacco addiction. Their success rate, per attempt, is still under 20%. There are other methods that are even worse than that.

Treating addiction is hard. There are no quick and easy fixes.
Well, I personally immediately stopped cigarettes with vaping. I know it's not harmless and that I'm still addicted to nicotine but I feel a lot better and I'm pretty confident I've lowered some long term risks.
  #183  
Old 09-11-2019, 08:37 PM
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Zoinks this thread did not age well.
Smoking will do that. Vaping - who knows?
  #184  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:36 PM
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Well, I personally immediately stopped cigarettes with vaping. I know it's not harmless and that I'm still addicted to nicotine but I feel a lot better and I'm pretty confident I've lowered some long term risks.
Conga-rats!
  #185  
Old 09-12-2019, 03:22 AM
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Well, I personally immediately stopped cigarettes with vaping. I know it's not harmless and that I'm still addicted to nicotine but I feel a lot better and I'm pretty confident I've lowered some long term risks.
Because curing addiction is so damn hard I'm all for harm reduction. I'm not entirely convinced vaping is that much safer, but I'll admit I haven't put much study into it, either. It does seem to reduce (although not entirely eliminate) the second hand effects on non-users and that is definitely a win.
  #186  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:36 AM
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Because curing addiction is so damn hard I'm all for harm reduction. I'm not entirely convinced vaping is that much safer, but I'll admit I haven't put much study into it, either. It does seem to reduce (although not entirely eliminate) the second hand effects on non-users and that is definitely a win.
Quite a few of us are for harms reduction. Some of us are particularly concerned with net harms reduction.

There is the potential of the harms reduction you listed above on the one side.

And there is a potential increased harms of the wide easy availability of current product lines resulting in a huge number of NEW nicotine addicts in a generation that had been decreasing that dramatically with some still to determined but real health risks both from the products directly and from increased risk of smoking products as well.

The goal is a max-min question. Where do we draw the lines given what data we have, and which direction lays more burden of proof?

To completely ignore either the potential of benefits (over other methods) or the potential of harms is not ideal. IMHO.

Last edited by DSeid; 09-12-2019 at 09:36 AM.
  #187  
Old 09-27-2019, 03:12 PM
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I've been busy, but I need to address this.

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k9bfriender obviously we get into IMHO and anecdotes here but my belief is that your position is a very ignorant one.
My belief is that you are very ignorant as to my position, as based on the rest of your post.

I was saying that it is not the flavors that draw kids in, but rather the actual drug itself. I was "corrected" and told that it was actually peer pressure, and I acknowledged that peer pressure is a part of it, but that that did not detract from my point that it is not the flavors that is the primary cause of teen vaping.
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Did you really take your first drink/toke/smoke/whatever to get fucked up? Nah. It was a social thing which then hooks some because of both the some perceived positive of the experience (inclusive of the buzz, but not necessarily only that, flavor etc can be part of that as well, and the ongoing social reinforcement of being part of a group, having a group activity/shared interest, having a prop, and so on), and for some after some time because of a dependency that morphs into an addiction, in which the positive is no longer the drive but the avoidance of the negative of withdrawal.
The first time I took a hit off a cig was actually to relax. I saw how people would take a drag and that they would visibly relax, and I wanted that, as I was *not* relaxed as a kid. Quite a bit you just said there, and you had to shoe in the part about flavor.

The first time I drank though, that was actually to "get fucked up", same with weed.
Quote:
To say that flavors that appeal are not part of that is as unto saying that taste of food doesn't impact overeating because people eat out of hunger, or that there would be as much alcohol consumption if the only form of it was Malort.
Obesity is a worse problem than smoking. It kills nearly as many, and while both of them have decades of lag between change in behavior and a noticeable change in morbidity, obesity is on its way up and smoking is on its way down. In not too many years, obesity will overtake tobacco as a killer, and it will keep going. Do you suggest we ban flavored food?

People like their alcohol, if the only form of it was Malort, then sure, alcohol consumption would go down, but not be as much as you seem to be thinking. I'd be surprised if consumption went down by more than 5%.
Quote:
Hell drinking is the same way. How many drink, as kids or as adults, primarily to get fucked up/alter their mental state? Not most. Many many more drink with the main focus being the social activity and the impact on mental state in service of that social activity, as a lubricant of sorts. Getting shit-faced is not the goal for most even if a slight buzz is enjoyed by many as part of the process.
You've never met a college student, have you?
Quote:
Kids are not choosing to the most powerful fuck-you-up substances and getting them no matter what. Not too many High Schoolers are dropping acid right now. By your way of thinking, why not?
By my way of thinking is not that people dive head first into anything that they express any interest in. The only way this question makes any sense is if you uncontrollably binge on any substance that you find interesting. Do you?

And I don't know what you mean exactly by "not too many" are dropping acid right now. How many do you consider to be too many? When I was in high school*, I knew quite a few, and having nieces and nephews in high school, I am aware that it is still pretty prevalent. Not a huge percent, but certainly present, and in the minds of many school parents, it is "too many."
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There has been a nearly two decade decline in teen alcohol use rates, including over the same last five year time period that teen vaping has exploded. How does that mesh with your thinking that they'll try whatever something someone has that they haven't tried before?
By the fact that I never said that they'll try whatever something someone has that they haven't tried before.

Nicotine is highly addictive and pleasurable and desirable. That is why people consume it. That is why people set leaves on fire and inhale nastiness into their lungs that they know will probably kill them. That's why their houses and clothes smells like shit. Those are the trade offs that they (and I ) are willing to make in order to have our drug of choice.

If you ban flavors, then we'll go to unflavored or back to cigarettes, but that's stupid, it would be like trying to curb underage drinking by banning all forms of alcohol other than Malort. If you ban vaping, or make it hard or unpleasant to get, then we'll probably just go back to smoking.

Now, you want to ban flavors in prepackaged Juuls and the like, I see no problem with that. You even want to ban pre mixed nicotine juice with flavor, I can accept that, even though I do not see the utility of it.

You want to out and out ban flavors, and you are going to find people using food flavoring as a flavoring agent, and making themselves sick. You are going to find people dropping the vape in favor of going back to smoking. There will be absolutely no positive that comes from it, but quite a few negatives.



*and just so that you don't think that my high school is some sort of backwater or shit hole, I will mention that I went to high school with the daughter of a very prominent (though now retired) Republican US congressman.
  #188  
Old 09-27-2019, 05:38 PM
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When was the last day you breathed nothing but air, do you think? I have no doubt that there is some health effects from vaping and I really don't understand why anyone would think otherwise. What I don't see is that it's worse than smoking, alcohol or a liter of Pepsi a day.
That doesn't invalidate his point.
  #189  
Old 09-27-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
...

The first time I took a hit off a cig was actually to relax. I saw how people would take a drag and that they would visibly relax, and I wanted that, as I was *not* relaxed as a kid....

Obesity is a worse problem than smoking. It kills nearly as many, and while both of them have decades of lag between change in behavior and a noticeable change in morbidity, obesity is on its way up and smoking is on its way down. In not too many years, obesity will overtake tobacco as a killer, and it will keep going. Do you suggest we ban flavored food?
...
Nicotine is highly addictive and pleasurable and desirable. That is why people consume it. That is why people set leaves on fire and inhale nastiness into their lungs that they know will probably kill them. That's why their houses and clothes smells like shit. Those are the trade offs that they (and I ) are willing to make in order to have our drug of choice.
....
Actually, overall, smoking increases stress, just that brief period when you get that drug fix you relax.

Second hand smoke kills 50000 Americans a year, mostly kids and the elderly- yep parent killing their kids and Nana in the spare room.

Very, very few deaths from second hand cheeseburgers.

Yep, and it is harder to quit than heroin. Which is why i support vaping, even tho i dont like it. I dont think I now have any friends at all who smoke, those who did have quit tobacco and switched to vaping.

I have read some not quite tinfoil hat theories that Big Tobacco is helping push this attack on vaping- vaping has been too damn effective for smokers who want to quit. I believe it.
  #190  
Old 09-27-2019, 06:49 PM
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I have read some not quite tinfoil hat theories that Big Tobacco is helping push this attack on vaping- vaping has been too damn effective for smokers who want to quit. I believe it.
Oh please - news of vaping-associated lung injury and the push for effective regulations on vaping products are terrible news for Big Tobacco, because (as already pointed out), big tobacco enterprises have invested heavily in vaping.

Altria (parent company of Philip Morris) owns 35% of Juul, the big player in the vaping market. An R.J. Reynolds subsidiary owns the #2 vaping company, Vuse. I can envision a lot of chuckling in tobacco company boardrooms* at the prospect of keeping nicotine addicts on board (and recruiting a bunch of new ones) through company investments in vaping.

*at least, until the recent push for regulation and the news of serious vaping-associated lung injuries and deaths.
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender
If you ban vaping, or make it hard or unpleasant to get, then we'll probably just go back to smoking.
Bravo. That'll show us!

I was disgusted the other day to see a local vape shop prominently advertising in their window the availability of CBD products, including stuff intended to be vaped. Now there's a responsible business that won't let widespread outbreaks of lung disease and death (largely involving cannabinoid products) affect its bottom line.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 09-27-2019 at 06:53 PM.
  #191  
Old 09-27-2019, 09:20 PM
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The CDC issues a preliminary report on the outbreak which currently stands at over 800 cases in 46 states including 12 deaths. Nothing new in the report, really, but it's filled with statistics and charts if you like that sort of thing.

Quote:
Summary

What is already known about this topic?

Lung injury associated with e-cigarette use, or vaping, has recently been reported in most states. CDC, the Food and Drug Administration, and others are investigating this outbreak.

What is added by this report?

Among 805 cases reported as of September 24, 2019, 69% were in males; 62% of patients were aged 18–34 years. Among patients with data on substances used in e-cigarettes, or vaping products, tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)-containing product use was reported by 76.9% (36.0% reported exclusive THC-product use); 56.8% reported nicotine-containing product use (16.0% reported exclusive nicotine-product use).

What are the implications for public health practice?

The cause of the outbreak is unknown. While this investigation is ongoing, CDC recommends that persons consider refraining from using e-cigarette, or vaping, products, particularly those containing THC.
  #192  
Old 09-27-2019, 09:30 PM
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The investigation of the illness outbreak is focusing on blackmarket additives.

Washington Post Article
Quote:
. . .

Interviews with more than a dozen business people in both the legal and illicit cannabis markets, as well as officials and clinicians, point to recent changes in the ingredients used in popular marijuana vaping devices that could be making people sick. They say black market operators are using more thickening agents to dilute THC oil because of a crackdown by [CA] state authorities that has made the oil scarcer on the black market. THC oil is used to fill tiny disposable containers known as vape cartridges, which are heated to create inhalable vapor. Vaping cartridges are among the most popular items in the legal and illicit markets, industry analysts said.

. . .

Recreational marijuana use is legal and regulated in California. In recent months, tighter restrictions have made THC oil increasingly scarce on the black market, industry experts said. THC oil can cost between $5,000 and $7,000 per kilogram for a high-purity product, according to experts. It is thick, colorless and odorless.

To stretch that supply, “a lot of producers who are using thickeners in their mixtures, they’re buying this stuff because it creates the visual appeal of a very thick oil” that looks like THC oil, said Peter Hackett, owner and operator of Air Vapor Systems, a company based in the San Francisco area that provides vape hardware and supplies to the legal market.
AD

One thickening agent that is a key focus of investigators is vitamin E oil, known as vitamin E acetate. It is also colorless and odorless, has similar viscosity to THC oil, and is much cheaper.

The sign of THC purity on the black market is oil thickness, Hackett said.

“It’s a way to fool or trick a customer into buying a bad product,” he said.
And here is a Leafly article from the cannabis community

Last edited by mikecurtis; 09-27-2019 at 09:34 PM.
  #193  
Old 09-28-2019, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Actually, overall, smoking increases stress, just that brief period when you get that drug fix you relax.
Does that matter to hyper anxious 13 year old me?
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Second hand smoke kills 50000 Americans a year, mostly kids and the elderly- yep parent killing their kids and Nana in the spare room.
We don't smoke in enclosed public places anymore, I think that number is going to start coming down rather rapidly rather soon.

If we want to pass laws that disallow smoking around minors or non-consenting adults, I have no problem with that.
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Very, very few deaths from second hand cheeseburgers.
Quite a few and growing from first hand though.

Smokers tended to have children who smoked. Obese people tend to have children that are obese.
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Yep, and it is harder to quit than heroin. Which is why i support vaping, even tho i dont like it. I dont think I now have any friends at all who smoke, those who did have quit tobacco and switched to vaping.
Most of my friends have turned to vaping. There's a few hold-outs, but we keep trying new blends and flavors on them to see if we can get the to switch.

Well, unless they ban flavors, of course.
Quote:
I have read some not quite tinfoil hat theories that Big Tobacco is helping push this attack on vaping- vaping has been too damn effective for smokers who want to quit. I believe it.
I'm sure there are many entrenched interests on both sides of the issue. I'll leave the tin foil on the roll for now though.

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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
Bravo. That'll show us!
The problem that you may be having with this debate is that you for some odd reason think it's about you.

I wouldn't switch back to cigarettes to "show you", I don't care about you. I would switch back because that would be the form of nicotine delivery that you haven't banned. The only way that you figure into it is in you working towards restricting my actions.
Quote:
I was disgusted the other day to see a local vape shop prominently advertising in their window the availability of CBD products, including stuff intended to be vaped. Now there's a responsible business that won't let widespread outbreaks of lung disease and death (largely involving cannabinoid products) affect its bottom line.
Is it the CBD oil part that bothers you? I have mixed feelings about CBD, but it's pretty mainstream now. It is sold everywhere, even at pharmacies.

If stuff is intended to be vaped, and is safe to be vaped, then I don't see why you care. If it is not safe to be vaped, then it should be, that is the role of regulation in this scenario.

If people are using improper products to vape CBD or even THC, and getting themselves sick or dead for it, then how would it be an irresponsible business that is offering the proper products to vape these substances with? Sounds to me that they are stepping up and filling a public safety need that is not being filled by the regulators that you want to come in to crush the industry with.

I mean, there are probably a number of things that will cause immediate and serious illness if run through a vape, and it is better that people get products that are made for such things than come up with "bright" ideas on their own. I can see someone just putting CBD or hemp oil in a vape and thinking that that is a great idea. I can see drug dealers making THC oils that are not high quality or even made of the right stuff. Banning this stuff will not stop people and black market entities from creating and doing it, it will just make sure that there are no controls or regulations over the products.
  #194  
Old 09-28-2019, 02:32 PM
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Oh please - news of vaping-associated lung injury and the push for effective regulations on vaping products are terrible news for Big Tobacco, because (as already pointed out), big tobacco enterprises have invested heavily in vaping.
...
Altho that is true, their main product is still death sticks, and they will do anything to get people addicted to them.
  #195  
Old 09-28-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post

We don't smoke in enclosed public places anymore, I think that number is going to start coming down rather rapidly rather soon.
...
Publics spaces, but it's the smoking in the home that kills the kids and elderly.

Smokers murder 50000 non-smokers a year, most members of their own family.
  #196  
Old 09-28-2019, 02:45 PM
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Publics spaces, but it's the smoking in the home that kills the kids and elderly.

Smokers murder 50000 non-smokers a year, most members of their own family.
And my point is that 50000 is not a static number, but a number that will likely be going down. It used to be that if you worked in an office, you worked next to a a smoker, and you could get second hand smoke from that. If you were in an airplane, or a bus, or even a hospital, you were subject to second hand smoke.

Parents are also more cognizant of the dangers of second hand smoke, and shamed by friends neighbors and everyone else about it. All the smoking and/or vaping parents that I know do not smoke or vape in the house. My point is that the laws and the practices have changed, and you will see a result of that, you just won't see it for a while, as it is a while between exposure to smoke and health effects from it. Most people dying now from second hand smoke were exposed in the 80's or early 90's at the latest. Blaming the current generation for that is not only more than a bit unfair, it is entirely unproductive.

I also pointed out that I would be supportive of laws that would forbid smoking around minors and non-consenting adults. I do think that second hand "vape" is also going to be far less harmful than that out of a cigarette.

So, I'm not sure why you feel the need to keep repeating this statistic as if it actually means anything relevant to the topic at hand, which is currently whether or not flavoring for nicotine juice should be banned.
  #197  
Old 09-28-2019, 05:23 PM
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I was disgusted the other day to see a local vape shop prominently advertising in their window the availability of CBD products, including stuff intended to be vaped. Now there's a responsible business that won't let widespread outbreaks of lung disease and death (largely involving cannabinoid products) affect its bottom line.
Pffft. I'm sure you were equally outraged when you saw a grocery store selling Iceberg lettuce during the last Romaine scare. You are rather shamelessly using this black market adulterated cartridge problem to smear the whole concept of vaping.
  #198  
Old 09-28-2019, 08:53 PM
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A long time ago I was a pack a day cigarette smoker. Or sometimes two. I did kick it.

Then, I fell off the wagon and started smoking cigars. I inhaled them.

It's sort of a cute story. I was in Mexico, at a liquor store. The proprietor was very nice and helped find what we where looking for. I insisted on him keeping the change (a few pesos) and he insisted on throwing a few cigars into the bag. What's a few cigars gonna hurt? Heck, I'm on vacation! Got hooked again, big time.

Vaping got me off of those, and I am cutting back on the amount of nicotine in them.
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  #199  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:37 AM
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The problem that you may be having with this debate is that you for some odd reason think it's about you.
No, not at all. What's truly odd is that anyone who was hooked on cigarettes and then switched to being hooked on nicotine vaping would defiantly announce that they'd likely switch back to cigarettes if denied flavored nicotine vapes.

Apparently that's supposed to make the rest of society throw up its hands in horror and say "Oh NO! Please don't do that! Look, here are some lovely watermelon and bubblegum-flavored nicotine vapes!! Come back, please!!!"

It doesn't make a whopping difference to me if nicotine addicts seek to self-destruct faster out of pique.* I just don't want to see the vaping industry and its Big Tobacco affiliates create a whole new generation of nicotine addicts by using flavors and deceptive advertising to entice them.
Quote:
Is it the CBD oil part that bothers you?
Given that we don't know yet exactly what constituents of vaping medium are causing serious acute lung illness (not to mention the specter of slow-developing irreversible chronic lung disorders), it strikes me as hugely irresponsible at this time to be encouraging the sale of CBD vape products.

*although as previously noted, smoking has been very very good to me as a pathologist (diagnosing various smoking-related cancers has probably represented a minimum of 10% of my income over the years). I mildly regret not having trained for a subspecialty in pulmonary pathology, as I anticipate that vaping will help make that a booming field in the future.
  #200  
Old 09-29-2019, 10:30 AM
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.Given that we don't know yet exactly what constituents of vaping medium are causing serious acute lung illness (not to mention the specter of slow-developing irreversible chronic lung disorders), it strikes me as hugely irresponsible at this time to be encouraging the sale of CBD vape products.
Bullshit. You thought it was irresponsible to sell that before this outbreak and you know perfectly well that the cause of this outbreak can't be the traditional vape ingredients.
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