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Old 01-06-2018, 03:43 AM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Is it possible to build a machine that generates more power than it uses?

Regarding Cecil's coverage of Joseph Newman's energy machine...

Simulation of the Newman motor in LTSpice verifies to my satisfaction that his motor is not an overunity device. It merely makes use of a very small portion of the interaction between the permanent magnet rotor and the high voltage coil (high voltage in the sense that the coil's current is very small by comparison).

There is no magic to energy conversion. Yet, due to Joseph's tendency to focus on the mass of the coil as the only major contributor of energy for his device, we are led to misunderstand the energy sources of his device are strictly the atomic spins of the coil's copper atoms if we are supposed to agree with Newman's point of view.

The coil is merely a collector and needs to be large to bolster its use as a collector of voltage over any tendency to collect amperage from a spinning (or moving) magnetic field since voltage always gets ahead of current along the length of a piece of wire - coiled or not.

The battery pack merely runs the circuit. It does not provide any gain of power at the coil. That gain is the result of a small degree of resonance between the coil and the permanent magnet's rotating magnetic field. Without the battery pack charging up the coil with excessive voltage and minimal current, and without the commutator's unique sequence of a 50% duty cycle with an additional 20% self-shorting of the coil at the end of each duty cycle, the coil could never resonate with the magnet's rotating field nor make productive use of it by recharging the batteries to give the appearance of being an overunity, or perpetual motion, machine.

And Newman's suggestion for connecting a capacitor of suitable strength across the coil - and parallel to it - is valid against his claim that it will decrease the circuit's wasted energy usage arising from arcing at the commutator. These arcs cause spikes of amperage that add to the overall drain made upon the battery pack.

My simulation also exhibits the need for the permanent magnet to supply less electromagnetic forces (in the form of inductance) and more electrostatic forces (in the form of voltage) to match the predominant buildup of voltage over current in the coil. This enhancement of voltage in the coil makes possible the very mild reversal of current in the battery pack as concluded by the analysis made by Dr. Hastings of Newman's energy device. My simulation exhibits this by requiring that the energy source (supplying its emulation of a permanent magnet) supply 30,000 volts while the inductor needed to transmit this energy to Newman's coil be rated at a mere 10 milli Henrys to keep its electromagnetic contribution to a minimum while emphasizing its electrostatic contribution to the coil.

If the contribution made by the rotating magnetic field of the spinning magnet is not given full credit as this device's primary energy source, then this device could easily become mislabeled as a perpetual motion machine or an overunity device.

But in the alternative, if we assume that a magnet's energy contribution in this device is 'free', then we can assume that the production of torque at the non-cost of the recharging of a pack of batteries is a free source of energy barring the price paid for purchasing very massive permanent magnet/s.
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Old 01-06-2018, 06:46 AM
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If the energy is coming from the rotating magnetic field, then it will slow down that rotation when it runs. There's nothing special about that.

If you're claiming that the rotation does not slow, then yes, you're claiming that it's an over-unity device.
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Old 01-06-2018, 07:56 AM
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If the energy is coming from the rotating magnetic field, then it will slow down that rotation when it runs. There's nothing special about that.
Right!

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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
If you're claiming that the rotation does not slow, then yes, you're claiming that it's an over-unity device.
My examination of this device, per my simulation of it, is demonstrating that there are two energy sources: the battery pack which merely drives the circuit/coil and the spinning magnet which contributes additional power.

The coil uses a small fraction of the energy from the spinning magnet. According to my simulated example (not intended to be an exact replica of any of Newman's devices which he built, but a simulated example of what could be built), the energy used is...

526.51 milli Watts (coil avg) divided by the absolute value of |-7.9265| Mega Watts (magnet avg) equals ~7ppm efficiency.

So, if it does slow down, it sure won't be noticed. But I thought I made myself clear that this is not an overunity device. This is the whole point of my post.

The only claim I'm making is the same as Newman's: that the mechanical torque produced by this device runs free of its overall battery power (energy loaded into the batteries from the coil minus the energy drained from them to power the coil).

The additional claims which I am making, which Newman never made, is that...

1) The coil is acting as an intermediary between magnet and batteries, and...

2) The energy supplied by the magnet is far in excess of the energy supplied by the batteries and in reversed polarity making possible the continual recharging of the batteries.

Thanks for your comment.
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:10 AM
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I may be out of my physics depth here, but do magnets provide energy? I thought they are used to convert energy but not provide it. Also, in your last sentence but one, it looks like you're claiming that the energy the magnets provide is enough to keep the batteries charged and the unit functioning, which sounds like an over-unity device to me.
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:58 AM
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Are magnets sources of energy? Yes.

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I may be out of my physics depth here, but do magnets provide energy?
In this case, the rotating magnet is being used to blend two separate energy sources resulting in faster rotation of the magnet up to its idling speed without any additional loads impairing this speed plus an elevated voltage on the coil. The other energy source which we are ignoring is that magnets are not unlike batteries or pre-charged capacitors: someone went to the trouble, time and expense of heating up the magnetizable material and subjecting it to a magnetic field while allowing it to cool down to room temperature while maintaining the input of an exterior field.

This is not stretching things, because...

Imagine a discussion about the height and volume of falling water are the only factors to determine energy input to a hydroelectric power plant. Then consider the volume of water resting behind that dam plus the pressure which that dam induces in the water. This is not unlike a similar situation with a natural waterfall propted up by a mass of Earth or rock replacing the mass of water behind a dam. Add to that the energy it took to naturally deliver that water to that dam via rainfall. Not to mention the worker's union in charge of everyone's labor to construct that dam, etc. Where's the overunity, there?

But we accept that assessment since we're used to using it and don't question its validity.

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I thought they are used to convert energy but not provide it.
Maybe life is so good in the 'developed countries' of the world that there's no need to think of new ways of using common stuff, such as: the magnetic core in a transformer or the permanent magnets in conventional DC motors?

The thought process of inventing something thinks this way in many cases when the invention is not completely original, but merely a modification of a commonly known idea.

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Also, in your last sentence but one, it looks like you're claiming that the energy the magnets provide is enough to keep the batteries charged and the unit functioning, which sounds like an over-unity device to me.
Depending on how we perform an accounting of energy use from various sources, we may either include the energy potential of the magnets or else ignore them. In each case, we get a vastly different assessment.

Going by a more complete assessment, this is not overunity. I say this, because I could claim that solar cells are overunity if I ignore the contribution which the Sun makes. We know differently: the Sun is part of the energy input equation. But imagine a few centuries ago during the Gothic period prior to the Renaissance what it would be like to explain solar power to someone. They'd probably think that you were suggesting an overunity device that stinks of being a perpetual motion machine. We know better, now - no surprises for us.

Last edited by Vinyasi; 01-06-2018 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 01-06-2018, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post
In this case, the rotating magnet is being used to blend two separate energy sources resulting in faster rotation of the magnet up to its idling speed without any additional loads impairing this speed plus an elevated voltage on the coil. The other energy source which we are ignoring is that magnets are not unlike batteries or pre-charged capacitors: someone went to the trouble, time and expense of heating up the magnetizable material and subjecting it to a magnetic field while allowing it to cool down to room temperature while maintaining the input of an exterior field.

This is not stretching things, because...

Imagine a discussion about the height and volume of falling water are the only factors to determine energy input to a hydroelectric power plant. Then consider the volume of water resting behind that dam plus the pressure which that dam induces in the water. This is not unlike a similar situation with a natural waterfall propted up by a mass of Earth or rock replacing the mass of water behind a dam. Add to that the energy it took to naturally deliver that water to that dam via rainfall. Not to mention the worker's union in charge of everyone's labor to construct that dam, etc. Where's the overunity, there?

But we accept that assessment since we're used to using it and don't question its validity.
Are you saying that the magnet's field will be drained by this and have to be replaced? Because that's what happens with a waterfall, right? It's potential energy (being high up) is converted to kinetic energy (when it falls), then to electrical energy (when it spins turbines). You need new water up there to continue generating energy.

Magnets don't drain like batteries when you used them in generators. But, if they did use up all the energy used in creating them (heating them up, etc., from above), then they would just have to be replaced like a battery. Then, so what?

Quote:
...
Depending on how we perform an accounting of energy use from various sources, we may either include the energy potential of the magnets or else ignore them. In each case, we get a vastly different assessment.

Going by a more complete assessment, this is not overunity. I say this, because I could claim that solar cells are overunity if I ignore the contribution which the Sun makes. We know differently: the Sun is part of the energy input equation. But imagine a few centuries ago during the Gothic period prior to the Renaissance what it would be like to explain solar power to someone. They'd probably think that you were suggesting an overunity device that stinks of being a perpetual motion machine. We know better, now - no surprises for us.
What is the sun-equivalent contribution in this case? Is it the magnet's potential energy (assuming, arguendo, that it exists)? Then, it has to be used up and replaced like any other energy source, right?
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Old 01-06-2018, 09:15 AM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Magnets can blend/integrate two independent energy sources.

blended energy

In the image linked, above, voltage of the coil rises as the current drained from the batteries falls. This indicates, to me, that something outside the circuit is affecting this change over time which sounds more than a mere conversion since the total energy which ends up in the coil is greater than what the batteries can supply, alone.
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Old 01-06-2018, 09:53 AM
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Energy is not the whole story. Intelligence is the other half.

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Are you saying that the magnet's field will be drained by this and have to be replaced? Because that's what happens with a waterfall, right? It's potential energy (being high up) is converted to kinetic energy (when it falls), then to electrical energy (when it spins turbines). You need new water up there to continue generating energy.

Magnets don't drain like batteries when you used them in generators. But, if they did use up all the energy used in creating them (heating them up, etc., from above), then they would just have to be replaced like a battery. Then, so what?



What is the sun-equivalent contribution in this case? Is it the magnet's potential energy (assuming, arguendo, that it exists)? Then, it has to be used up and replaced like any other energy source, right?
Not exactly. It depends how energy is used: what portion.

If watts are used, or current, then yes you're right.

But if mere volts are needed without any contribution from current, then no.

In other words, the controlling factor is the lifespan of the batteries and the lifespan of the magnet under the wear and tear of their use - not attributable to their expense of stored energy potential. No one has figured out how to get energy out of a magnet on a continual basis without 'draining them', so your analogies don't apply. They're not being drained the same way we drain batteries.

The contribution of the magnet is mostly wasted. A mere 7ppm in this simulation actually gets used. Since magnetism in a permanent magnet is not energy stored, but energy alignment, the loss over time is rated not on using up energy but using up its coherence. Coherence is not energy. It's the intelligence of a magnet's structure. We put that intelligence there using energy to do it. And energy gain is the result of using a magnet in a circuit in a manner to take advantage of the magnet's coherence. So in a very real sense, we're converting intelligence into energy, not one form of energy into another.

This is the other side of the story of electrodynamic theory left out of our view of the situation: that intelligence is just as significant as is energy (and energy's equivalent version as matter). This is why I prefer to analyze electrical dynamics in terms of wave mechanics rather than 'energy IN has to equal energy OUT'. For without energy, intelligence would have nothing to embody itself within. And without intelligence, energy would be a non-functional blob - very amorphous and not at all useful. This is analogous to my trying to make babies all on my own without the help of a woman contributing what I alone do not possess: the entire package of generation of life within my body.

Whereas zero point energy and energy from the vacuum are popular expressions, I don't adhere to them. It's far simpler: empty space - both inside matter/energy as well as devoid of them (theoretically, since we can't separate the two in actuality) plus energy/matter comprise wave mechanics. So, I would have to differ with Newman on this point. E=MC2 of the copper and iron atoms are not the whole story. It's how we use them that's the other half of this story.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:09 AM
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Got it: So what you're claiming is that it's an over-unity device, except that you're pretending that that's not what you're claiming, because everyone knows that over-unity devices are impossible, so this is just something that behaves exactly like an over-unity device without having that name.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:12 AM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Getting More from Less

Coherence must have a pre-existant energy to have something to boost. I can't make something from nothing. But I can make more from less which is usually due to oversight of not making full use of all of the factors comprising wave mechanics that are available.

An example is phase conjugation in optics.

http://is.gd/explainconjugate

We have developed retroreflectors as one consumer result...

http://is.gd/retroreflector
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post
blended energy

In the image linked, above, voltage of the coil rises as the current drained from the batteries falls. This indicates, to me, that something outside the circuit is affecting this change over time which sounds more than a mere conversion since the total energy which ends up in the coil is greater than what the batteries can supply, alone.
That sounds like over-unity to me, if the total energy is greater than what the batteries can supply, unless you're positing some other energy source (and magnets alone are not an energy source.

And I'm pretty sure your next post is almost 100% nonsense, so I'm disengaging from this thread.
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Old 01-06-2018, 04:01 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Without resonance, Newman's device would die.

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That sounds like over-unity to me, if the total energy is greater than what the batteries can supply, unless you're positing some other energy source (and magnets alone are not an energy source.

And I'm pretty sure your next post is almost 100% nonsense, so I'm disengaging from this thread.
To accumulate more energy from the magnet than what the batteries supplies requires resonance between the coil and the magnet. Newman's device is setup to emphasize the presence of volts dominating over amps.

It's more easy to manipulate the voltage of an EM wave than it is to manipulate its current. I've performed so many simulations of apparent overunity predicated on HV circuits with only a little current leaking out to keep them going...

https://is.gd/pureres

A self-resonant circuit is the Holy Grail of self-discovery. Everything else is easy by comparison such as a simple flashlight circuit.

My simulation of a Newman motor, cited above, taught me that Newman is using pressure from the magnet, not its quality of current, to manipulate the coil. He's also using a very large coil to encourage voltage buildup inside of the coil instead of making use of any value of current that he could possible get from a magnet. This latter condition is commonplace in our motors and transformers in contrast to Newman's device which stays away from current as being too difficult for him to manage.

He kept saying he was a poor country boy not formally schooled to any great degree in just about everything. So, he had to think simply and solve his technical problems the same way.

As a proof of concept of a simple idea, Newman's motor excels. But as a device holding marketability, it sucks.

But in third world countries, their consumer demographics are hungry enough for electricity that they'll take anything over nothing. We're more picky since we've been gluttonously spoiled for all of our life.
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Old 01-06-2018, 04:03 PM
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La, dee, da.

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Got it: So what you're claiming is that it's an over-unity device, except that you're pretending that that's not what you're claiming, because everyone knows that over-unity devices are impossible, so this is just something that behaves exactly like an over-unity device without having that name.
Thanks for the humor. I need to chill out.
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Old 01-06-2018, 04:09 PM
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Here's another version of self-induced oscillations...

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https://is.gd/pureres

A self-resonant circuit is the Holy Grail of self-discovery. Everything else is easy by comparison such as a simple flashlight circuit.
http://is.gd/aerialTMT
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Old 01-06-2018, 04:09 PM
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...But in third world countries, their consumer demographics are hungry enough for electricity that they'll take anything over nothing. We're more picky since we've been gluttonously spoiled for all of our life.
Yes, it's only in privileged wealthy countries that we can afford the luxury of obeying the laws of thermodynamics.
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:02 PM
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Yes, it's only in privileged wealthy countries that we can afford the luxury of obeying the laws of thermodynamics.
As I point out in the first step of my Instructable on Making Waves, Emmy Noether's contribution to physics has been tortured to the point of non-understandability. "A rose is a rose" doesn't say anything. Yet, her contribution trumps any consideration of thermodynamics since...

1) Thermodynamics' only contribution are the losses of a system, not its gains.
2) I must repeat myself that the gain by the coil, in my simulation of the Newman device, is approximately 7ppm of the contribution coming from the spinning magnet. And if Newman had not made his coil massively large, that 7ppm coefficient of performance between the magnet and the coil would be drastically reduced to the point of inoperability to his device.

Last edited by Vinyasi; 01-06-2018 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:08 PM
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The OP got close on the 2nd Law ...
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:18 PM
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What's an OP?

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The OP got close on the 2nd Law ...
The OP? Please excuse my ignorance. What's that?
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:22 PM
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1. Collect underpants.
2. ???
3. Profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO5sxLapAts

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Old 01-06-2018, 05:22 PM
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The OP? Please excuse my ignorance. What's that?
Either "original post" or "original poster" ... depending on context ...
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:24 AM
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Adding AC to DC.

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The OP got close on the 2nd Law ...
If this is referring to the impossibility of extracting useful work from magnets, then I must insure that we not get distracted from the operating principle of the Newman motor is - not the conversion of magnetism into electricity, so much as it is - the blending of an overpowering AC sine wave with that of a DC square wave of lesser potential such that the AC component of this blend predominates.

http://vinyasi.info/ne?startCircuit=acplusdc.txt

The voltage level of Newman's circuit provided by its battery pack - V1, in this simulation, is 300 volts. The voltage level of V3 supplying an electromagnetic equivalent to a spinning permanent bar magnet, delivered in this simulation as an AC sine wave, is ten times that: 3,000 volts.

The consequence is that the wave shape of the coil is no longer a square wave, but a sine wave. This indicates the successful domination of the coil's behavior has been taken over by the magnet set into rotation to produce that AC sine wave.

The battery pack, represented by V1, is no longer in control of the circuit in general and the coil in particular.

But this takes time for this condition to build up.

https://archive.org/download/TheEner...ageSources.jpg

https://archive.org/download/TheEner...phNewmanV4.jpg

Initially, the wave shape of the current emanating from V1 is a square wave. Gradually, the current level of V1 diminishes while the voltage of the coil rises. Also, the shape of the current of V1 gradually changes into a perfect sine wave. This indicates that this rise in voltage of the coil is accumulating from the AC source, V3, while the contribution of voltage from the batteries, at V1, is shrinking by comparison.

A blend of ten parts sine wave and one part square wave results in a close approximation of a sine wave. Also, the current at the batteries goes negative. This is the most important indication that the batteries are no longer providing most of the power to the coil and a sure sign that it's coming from elsewhere.

Why invoke anything non-conventional? Think of the spinning magnet as an AC generator since its magnetic field rotates and its generation can be mirrored by an electromagnet, in this simulation, which helps to isolate the magnet's inductance from its voltage which makes it easier to fine tune the characteristics of the magnetic field of the rotating bar magnet so as to supply just the right magnetic ingredient to boost the coil beyond its dependency on the battery pack, alone.

Last edited by Vinyasi; 01-07-2018 at 01:27 AM.
  #22  
Old 01-07-2018, 06:47 AM
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Fucking magnets, how do they work?
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Old 01-07-2018, 07:09 AM
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2) I must repeat myself that the gain by the coil, in my simulation of the Newman device, is approximately 7ppm of the contribution coming from the spinning magnet.
Here you are either saying that the device is 0.0007% over unity, or you're saying that the wheel slows down by 0.0007% per cycle. If it's the former, then that's impossible, because you have energy coming from nowhere. If it's the latter, well, that's possible, but completely irrelevant, because it just means that you're using a rotating wheel as an energy storage device, which is a well-established, boring technology, which has been done much more practically by others.
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Old 01-07-2018, 07:23 AM
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How do magnets work? Alignment of their tiny north and south poles.

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Fucking magnets, how do they work?
It's all about alignment of the north and south poles of iron particles in the magnet. The more iron particles aligned all in the same direction, the more powerful is that magnet. A non-magnetized piece of iron has all of its itsy bitsy particle sized magnetic poles oriented in a randomized mixture of every which way other than the same way.

Set in rotation, a rotating magnetic field is the foundation of AC power generation.

Whether this rotating magnetic field is set in motion by a rotating electromagnet or by a rotating permanent magnet is of scant consequence. The resulting input to the Newman device is still equivalently representable by an AC input administered to its coil from outside the coil. In my simulation, I use a transformer to transfer the AC field to the field of the coil.

Initially, the coil's field predominates in DC square waves since that's what is supplied to it from the battery powered commutator.

But gradually, the AC input predominates in the coil since the voltage, in this simulated model, is greater in the rotating (electro)magnet than it is in the battery pack.

The net result indicating predominance of AC over DC in the coil is the diagnostic check provided by the displacement of DC square waves in the battery pack with AC sine waves of negative polarity. Since the batteries are not capable of externalizing a negative flow of current (to recharge themselves), this reversal of current flow cannot possibly come from anywhere but outside the batteries.

Although this action is not overunity, it is free if it is assumed that the influence of the rotating magnetic field is acquired for free - overlooking the initial influence of a hand or startup motor to get the bar magnet spinning from a cold start.

Permanent magnets don't lose their magnetic charge overnight - to put it mildly - unlike a battery which will through constant use. But in this simulation, along with real world examples of Newman's device, the battery pack is continually recharged. The batteries won't give out until the natural aging process of batteries takes over.

The fascinating thing about the Newman device is that instances have been reported that dead batteries have been successfully used to run his device, but were incapable of running normal devices. That's why we call them dead whenever their voltage drops below their normal usage range. So, here is an example of the differences in how we define a dead battery. When is a battery dead? A truly dead battery, from the point of view of a Newman device, is when the battery has become destroyed due to a permanent short arising inside the battery making it incapable of ever developing any voltage difference across its terminals. Anything better than that makes a Newman usage of batteries still doable.
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Old 01-07-2018, 07:42 AM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Practical devices are not always used as teaching tools.

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Here you are either saying that the device is 0.0007% over unity, or you're saying that the wheel slows down by 0.0007% per cycle. If it's the former, then that's impossible, because you have energy coming from nowhere. If it's the latter, well, that's possible, but completely irrelevant, because it just means that you're using a rotating wheel as an energy storage device, which is a well-established, boring technology, which has been done much more practically by others.
No, 7ppm maintained over all of its cycles. It achieves a stable state.

What I calculated is not a measure of its slow down, but the measure of inefficiency in transferring AC from the rotating magnetic field to the coil. The coil acquired a mere 7ppm of the energy available to itself from its immediate surroundings.

So, if this transference of energy results in slowing down the rotor by a factor of 7ppm, it is not a loss of 7ppm per duty cycle, but an average sustained over all duty cycles after thirty seconds of warmup has passed.

You have a bizarre way of applying a rule of thumb to a device to which that rule of thumb does not apply. The speed of rotation does not slow down. Rather, it speeds up to its idling speed when no mechanical load is added. So, if there is a slow down, it gets lost as a factor to net rotation speed since it's so small.

The telling point is that the inductance of the AC field is very small by comparison to the inductance of the coil which is very large. The coil's inductance, in this simulation, is 16kH while the inductance of the AC field is a mere 10mH. Meanwhile, the voltage of the AC field is ten times larger than the voltage of the coil's field. How can this situation allow a slowing down of the rotor if the coil fails at overpowering the rotating field? What you're suggesting would be equivalent to saying you can charge a battery using less voltage than what the battery puts out. It can't be done. So, the AC field's rotation speed cannot slow down.

A rotating field is not nowhere.

This is not a practical device in my opinion. It's an efficient proof of concept to a style of functioning which is quite unique, aka unconventional.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:31 AM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Added resistance to the rotating AC field of the permanent magnets.

I forgot to include the simulation of resistance on L2...
https://archive.org/download/TheEner...phNewmanV5.jpg

It's ASC file for running in LTSpice is...
https://archive.org/download/TheEner...phNewmanV5.asc
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:38 AM
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[snip] ... This is not a practical device in my opinion ... [snap]
This was my next question ... have you built this contraption yet and does it give you your calculated results? ...

Also ... I'm not seeing where you've answered The Master's condemnation of this device ... and this does smell like a perpetual motion machine ... so if you could, please love, explain this in terms of energy flow and the conservation laws ... I have an old dog-eared copy of Halliday/Resnick someplace, so figure me as having completed freshman physics ... so try to use small one-syllable words ...

I'm not the gubbermint, so I can and do judge people by who they associate with ... and this Joseph Newman fella is one sick dude ... telling an eight-year-old lil' girl she's married to some old fart makes Charles Darwin's incest look wholesome ... I'm not saying you're a sick-o, just suggesting you find references from people who maybe aren't as deranged ...
  #28  
Old 01-07-2018, 10:04 AM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Overall layout of energy flow.

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Originally Posted by watchwolf49 View Post
This was my next question ... have you built this contraption yet and does it give you your calculated results? ...

Also ... I'm not seeing where you've answered The Master's condemnation of this device ... and this does smell like a perpetual motion machine ... so if you could, please love, explain this in terms of energy flow and the conservation laws ... I have an old dog-eared copy of Halliday/Resnick someplace, so figure me as having completed freshman physics ... so try to use small one-syllable words ...

I'm not the gubbermint, so I can and do judge people by who they associate with ... and this Joseph Newman fella is one sick dude ... telling an eight-year-old lil' girl she's married to some old fart makes Charles Darwin's incest look wholesome ... I'm not saying you're a sick-o, just suggesting you find references from people who maybe aren't as deranged ...
For the most part, I go by Dr. Hastings analysis in chapter six of Newman's book.

There are two energy sources which are blended at the junction between the coil and its surrounding field.

One energy source is pulsed voltage from V1 chopped with a switch to give very distinct square waves.

The other energy source is an AC field, V3, simulating a rotating bar magnet.

V1 and V2 and their associated switches represent the battery pack and the commutator.

The transformer, in this simulation, represents the mingling of the battery's and its commutator energy with that of the AC field of the rotating bar magnet.

The voltage of V1 is 300 volts while the AC field is being supplied with 3,000 volts.

Since amperage takes a little longer to catch up with voltage, the initial scope readout indicates that the battery pack's influence predominates in the coil. Eventually, the AC field's influence predominates indicated by a change in both wave shapes and values during 'warm up'.

V1, V2 and their associated switches deliver DC square waves. But a rotating bar magnet delivers an AC sine wave.

It's easy to see the transformation occur as the AC takes over the behavior of all of the components of this simulation. The only component not exhibiting any wave and any energy value greater than zero is the voltage IN at V1. But this doesn't happen right away, but becomes this when the AC takes over.

As I example with Tesla's patent on adding AC to DC...
http://vinyasi.info/ne?startCircuit=acplusdc.txt

...it's possible to regulate the outcome of an AC/DC blend by altering the ratio of voltages between them.

In this case, with this simulation, the AC has to be greater than the DC in order for the amperage of V1 to turn into a negative value and thus charge the batteries. This was determined by Dr. Hastings.

Since LTSpice has a weird way of displaying amps at voltage sources with an inverted polarity, I have to multiply all of the amperage traces of voltage sources on the oscilloscope traces by a factor of negative one to get their correct polarity.

By comparing the watts of the rotating field with the watts of the coil, I concluded that nearly 100% of the rotating field's energy (100% minus 7ppm) is not being utilized - it's wasted.

Thermodynamics is not being violated due to the energy efficiency of this device is barely above 0%.

The only reason why this device appears to run forever is due to the long time it generally takes for permanent magnets to lose their charge if they're not abused with heat, etc. I think, as I recall, that it amounts to a small percentage per century. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And the batteries will need to be replaced far more frequently than will the bar magnet since they age too at a more rapid rate than the permanent magnet despite their being continually recharged while running in this device.

But Peter Lindemann and John Bedini has said that most battery's chemistries are ruined by both charging and discharging batteries at the same time. Their chemistry demands either charging or discharging, but never both at the same time. So, I suspect that this incarnation of Newman's ideology would hasten the ruination of batteries which could last longer if someone smart enough to do so could restructure Newman's circuit to take better care of its battery pack.

I wouldn't condemn sickos since rarely is there a genius who is not an imbalanced character.

Charley Chaplin was a rare exception to this rule of thumb. I cannot think of any other.

But I have to admit that associating with sickos is a taxing affair. Christ didn't stay away from low-life. He administered to them. And so did Mother Theresa of Calcutta. But I'm too old to want to hang out with sickos since such an association wears me out, severely.

Nonetheless, I'm always rewarded by new insights arising spontaneously from within in exchange for doing Mother Nature a favor by attempting to help a sicko out by not allowing them to think that they've been forgotten or abandoned.

I just try to ration out my good Samaritan behavior, 'cuz I can only take so much of that before I puke.

How did I do? Did I answer your question?
  #29  
Old 01-07-2018, 11:32 AM
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[snip] ... Thermodynamics is not being violated due to the energy efficiency of this device is barely above 0% ... [snap]
Ah, that answers my question ... your device does the exact opposite of what a voltage regulator does ... sounds like you'll need a bigger heat sink ... electrical energy in, heat energy out ... in my very limited experience, combining DC and AC voltages is a problem to be solved, can't say I've ever came across a situation where this combination was desirable ... and if it ever was just use a single diode rectifier ...

"Is it possible to build a machine that generates more power than it uses?" -- Watts times zero equals zero, obviously you're using more power than the zero you're generating ...

We can write a computer program to say anything we want it to say ... let's build this thing and see if it works ...

Last edited by watchwolf49; 01-07-2018 at 11:36 AM.
  #30  
Old 01-08-2018, 04:07 AM
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"Let's build it", as in: I'll wait and watch... I'd help out further if I could.

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Ah, that answers my question ... your device does the exact opposite of what a voltage regulator does ... sounds like you'll need a bigger heat sink ... electrical energy in, heat energy out ... in my very limited experience, combining DC and AC voltages is a problem to be solved, can't say I've ever came across a situation where this combination was desirable ... and if it ever was just use a single diode rectifier ...

"Is it possible to build a machine that generates more power than it uses?" -- Watts times zero equals zero, obviously you're using more power than the zero you're generating ...

We can write a computer program to say anything we want it to say ... let's build this thing and see if it works ...
One of the main reasons for my spending so much time simulating stuff is that I'm not formally trained to handle HV. Thus, I'd like to simulate to get a feel for whatever I'm envisioning.

Secondly, I'm barely surviving without transportation, living out in the desert, and next to no financial support.

If I can stimulate discussion, then I'm still ahead.

I don't doubt the heat out.

As for using a single diode as a half wave rectifier, I don't see how that applies here since I'm simulating a mechanical device - not a solid state version - using two separate and distinct power sources. How do you use a single diode to blend two voltage sources? I don't know how to do that.

A few errors were brought to my attention requiring me to rework the simulation.

https://archive.org/download/TheEner...phNewmanV7.jpg

https://archive.org/download/TheEner...phNewmanV7.asc

In so doing, I managed to satisfy a few criteria described by Dr. Hastings:

1) a slightly predominant negative flow of current at the battery pack, V_bat_1, and
2) voltage OUT on the coil peaking at 770 volts which is close to the 667 volts measured by Dr. Hastings, and
3) voltage IN of 300vDC, and
4) a simulated switching similar to Newman's commutator.

Everything else is weirdly eccentric.

Somebody sent me a diagram and is building it.

https://archive.org/download/TheEner...manDiagram.png
  #31  
Old 01-08-2018, 07:24 AM
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I'm not applying a rule of thumb. I'm applying the most fundamental known law of the Universe we've ever discovered, for which there has never been any observed exception, despite extensive efforts to find such an exception.
  #32  
Old 01-08-2018, 07:54 AM
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I'm not applying a rule of thumb. I'm applying the most fundamental known law of the Universe we've ever discovered, for which there has never been any observed exception, despite extensive efforts to find such an exception.
Perhaps the OP should go to Las Vegas for a refresher in the application of this law.
  #33  
Old 01-08-2018, 08:23 AM
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I'm applying the most fundamental known law of the Universe we've ever discovered, for which there has never been any observed exception ...
Yes.

In every single case (of which there have been tens of thousands in human history), when someone has actually built their clever design, it turned out they'd overlooked something and the machine could not generate more power than it used.

The same will infallibly happen in this case.
  #34  
Old 01-08-2018, 08:30 AM
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Not exactly. It depends how energy is used: what portion.

If watts are used, or current, then yes you're right.

But if mere volts are needed without any contribution from current, then no.
Say what? There's no such things as "mere volts are needed, without current".
  #35  
Old 01-08-2018, 08:42 AM
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Perhaps the OP should go to Las Vegas for a refresher in the application of this law.
He is living out in the desert in poverty. Seems like a foolproof plan. Or, he could use this small Scottish demon to stop the slow moving molecules and let the fast ones escape, thus inventing a power-free form of air conditioning.

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Say what? There's no such things as "mere volts are needed, without current".
Technically, you can have a potential difference even without current flowing. However, you won't develop any power across it.

Stranger
  #36  
Old 01-08-2018, 09:45 AM
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One of the main reasons for my spending so much time simulating stuff is that I'm not formally trained to handle HV. Thus, I'd like to simulate to get a feel for whatever I'm envisioning.

Secondly, I'm barely surviving without transportation, living out in the desert, and next to no financial support.

If I can stimulate discussion, then I'm still ahead.

I don't doubt the heat out.

As for using a single diode as a half wave rectifier, I don't see how that applies here since I'm simulating a mechanical device - not a solid state version - using two separate and distinct power sources. How do you use a single diode to blend two voltage sources? I don't know how to do that.

A few errors were brought to my attention requiring me to rework the simulation.

https://archive.org/download/TheEner...phNewmanV7.jpg

https://archive.org/download/TheEner...phNewmanV7.asc

In so doing, I managed to satisfy a few criteria described by Dr. Hastings:

1) a slightly predominant negative flow of current at the battery pack, V_bat_1, and
2) voltage OUT on the coil peaking at 770 volts which is close to the 667 volts measured by Dr. Hastings, and
3) voltage IN of 300vDC, and
4) a simulated switching similar to Newman's commutator.

Everything else is weirdly eccentric.

Somebody sent me a diagram and is building it.

https://archive.org/download/TheEner...manDiagram.png
That is a diagram of wack job/conman Joseph Newman's infamous "Energy Machine".

It doesn't and cannot work-Period.
  #37  
Old 01-08-2018, 11:26 AM
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More about Joseph Newman and his "energy machine".
  #38  
Old 01-08-2018, 12:01 PM
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That is a diagram of wack job/conman Joseph Newman's infamous "Energy Machine".

It doesn't and cannot work-Period.
The article is unclear, can we still get stock in that company?
  #39  
Old 01-08-2018, 12:08 PM
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The article is unclear, can we still get stock in that company?
Poe's Law.
  #40  
Old 01-08-2018, 01:14 PM
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Perhaps the OP should go to Las Vegas for a refresher in the application of this law.
Are you thinking of Pyramid Lake in Nevada? I understand Dr. Matrix could help, along with his able daughter-assistant, Iva, and his dentally-challenged sidekick, One-Tooth-Rhee. Contact Martin Gardner's ghost for details.
  #41  
Old 01-08-2018, 03:00 PM
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Technically, you can have a potential difference even without current flowing. However, you won't develop any power across it.

Stranger
Indeed, but the OP was talking in terms of energy use.
  #42  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:14 AM
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I'm not applying a rule of thumb. I'm applying the most fundamental known law of the Universe we've ever discovered, for which there has never been any observed exception, despite extensive efforts to find such an exception.
You're getting lost in the shuffle...

The slowing down of spin rate upon the transference of energy is not the most telling feature to the behavior of this device. Yeah, it happens, but can you see it happen?

Probably not due to the speed up of rotation due to voltage build up on the coil. This build up replaces rotation speed loss on a continual basis to maintain its cruising speed when no additional load of any kind is added.

Loss of speed will only noticeably occur whenever a mechanical load is placed on the drive shaft of the bar magnet.

Loss of speed due to electrical forces are negligible up to a point. That point is a factor of the reciprocal of 7-10ppm. Unless the electrical load of transference of energy from the rotating magnetic field versus the storehouse of voltage on the coil is greater than this factor, no noticeable alteration of rotation speed will occur. It's there, but try seeing it or worrying about how small it is. You can always wind a larger coil to accommodate such losses along with adding a larger bar magnet without any consideration of raising the voltage on the battery pack if you're worried about this technical detail. And it is a detail at best. It's not the big picture of implementing this thing to deal with such trivial stuff.

The main deal here, is the build up of voltage on the coil from the moment this device is set into motion up to its point of plateau. This build up of voltage speeds up rotation of the bar magnet. How can this be if you claim it is slowing down? It is slowing down. But that's not the overall effect. That's just one factor. It's also speeding up at a rate in excess to its slowing down. It's going to continue to speed up until it reaches its idle rate. And that rate can be increased still further by adding an electrical load on a separate coil wound on top of the primary and isolated from the primary (not unlike the primary and secondary of an isolation transformer).
  #43  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:38 AM
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Prejudice generates self-defeatist result. Logic can't solve everything without cross-checking data.

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You're getting lost in the shuffle...

The slowing down of spin rate upon the transference of energy is not the most telling feature to the behavior of this device. Yeah, it happens, but can you see it happen?

Probably not due to the speed up of rotation due to voltage build up on the coil. This build up replaces rotation speed loss on a continual basis to maintain its cruising speed when no additional load of any kind is added.

Loss of speed will only noticeably occur whenever a mechanical load is placed on the drive shaft of the bar magnet.

Loss of speed due to electrical forces are negligible up to a point. That point is a factor of the reciprocal of 7-10ppm. Unless the electrical load of transference of energy from the rotating magnetic field versus the storehouse of voltage on the coil is greater than this factor, no noticeable alteration of rotation speed will occur. It's there, but try seeing it or worrying about how small it is. You can always wind a larger coil to accommodate such losses along with adding a larger bar magnet without any consideration of raising the voltage on the battery pack if you're worried about this technical detail. And it is a detail at best. It's not the big picture of implementing this thing to deal with such trivial stuff.

The main deal here, is the build up of voltage on the coil from the moment this device is set into motion up to its point of plateau. This build up of voltage speeds up rotation of the bar magnet. How can this be if you claim it is slowing down? It is slowing down. But that's not the overall effect. That's just one factor. It's also speeding up at a rate in excess to its slowing down. It's going to continue to speed up until it reaches its idle rate. And that rate can be increased still further by adding an electrical load on a separate coil wound on top of the primary and isolated from the primary (not unlike the primary and secondary of an isolation transformer).
In other words, the battery pack supplies most of the power needed to run the circuit minus any additional load, mechanical or electrical, applied to the circuit or the drive shaft of its rotating magnet. Its the unused magnetic field of the rotating magnet which supplies power for any additional load. The energy source for the rotating magnet is represented by V3 in this simulation.

Only 14 to 100 thousandth of the full energy potential of the rotating magnet is being used to run the circuit from V3 in addition to the energy supplied by the battery pack. Any additional load up to that limit can be accommodated by the circuit without bringing the circuit to a dead stop.

Before we start worrying about losses due to the laws of thermodynamics, we should worry about all of our assets included with all of our liabilities before doing a thorough accounting of all energies and how they're being used or not used but could be used upon additional demands made upon the circuit. Just because a battery sits somewhere doesn't mean all of its energy is used. Likewise, not all of the energy of the rotating bar magnet is used, but more of it could be used upon demand.

There are limits to everything. But logic can be flawed, not due to the laws of physics and chemistry, but due to our own flawed accounting of the total picture of the energy balance sheet.
  #44  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:53 AM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is offline
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Vinyasi,

Have you considered starting a power company to generate power in the way you describe? Or just powering your own appliances off-grid?
  #45  
Old 01-09-2018, 08:06 AM
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OK, if the voltage is replacing the rotational energy, then that's draining that amount of energy from whatever is maintaining the voltage. You can jump through a lot of hoops to transfer energy between different forms, but it all still has to come from somewhere.
  #46  
Old 01-09-2018, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
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In other words, the battery pack supplies most of the power needed to run the circuit minus any additional load, mechanical or electrical, applied to the circuit or the drive shaft of its rotating magnet. Its the unused magnetic field of the rotating magnet which supplies power for any additional load. The energy source for the rotating magnet is represented by V3 in this simulation.

Only 14 to 100 thousandth of the full energy potential of the rotating magnet is being used to run the circuit from V3 in addition to the energy supplied by the battery pack. Any additional load up to that limit can be accommodated by the circuit without bringing the circuit to a dead stop.

Before we start worrying about losses due to the laws of thermodynamics, we should worry about all of our assets included with all of our liabilities before doing a thorough accounting of all energies and how they're being used or not used but could be used upon additional demands made upon the circuit. Just because a battery sits somewhere doesn't mean all of its energy is used. Likewise, not all of the energy of the rotating bar magnet is used, but more of it could be used upon demand.

There are limits to everything. But logic can be flawed, not due to the laws of physics and chemistry, but due to our own flawed accounting of the total picture of the energy balance sheet.
Will you address the fact that you are using the plans of a known con-man, and that HE was never able to get it to work?
  #47  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:20 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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A mother's job is never done.... So, I'll whistle while I work....

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OK, if the voltage is replacing the rotational energy, then that's draining that amount of energy from whatever is maintaining the voltage.
I never promised you a rose garden.
The rotating magnetic field of the bar magnet is the predominant energy source for the false illusion of overunity.

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You can jump through a lot of hoops to transfer energy between different forms, but it all still has to come from somewhere.
I believe that all successful inventions claimed to be overunity were bally-hooed due to our collective non-ability to account for everything going on inside of them. So, we labeled them fringe and the inventor is a fraud. We do this so quickly without ever considering that we have a lot to learn about circuits.

Think about complicated audio systems. Their designers are highly sophisticated craftsmen who have long since transcended simple flashlight circuits.

The result is a work of art.

Newman's device is deceptively simple with only a few components. It's easy to think, "Oh. I can do that". And in pursuit of that presumption we find our replication does not work as Newman describes and thus come to the baseless conclusion that it will never work - end of story, as we return to our normal lives and bury the dreamer/s.

Did I ever claim in this message thread that Newman's device was overunity? Show me, and I'll post a correction to that message, for that was never my intent to convey that impression to anyone.

But if you can't see the possibility of what I'm presenting, here, as a description of how it may not be overunity yet still perform as Dr. Hastings has described, then I have more postings ahead of me to look forward to.
  #48  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:22 PM
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Putting words into my mouth.

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Will you address the fact that you are using the plans of a known con-man, and that HE was never able to get it to work?
Cite your source, for that is a bold claim.
  #49  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:23 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Baby steps....

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Vinyasi,

Have you considered starting a power company to generate power in the way you describe? Or just powering your own appliances off-grid?
Sure. I consider that every time I craft a simulation.

Baby steps....

Last edited by Vinyasi; 01-09-2018 at 03:23 PM.
  #50  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:25 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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I pick my challenges.....

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He is living out in the desert in poverty. Seems like a foolproof plan. Or, he could use this small Scottish demon to stop the slow moving molecules and let the fast ones escape, thus inventing a power-free form of air conditioning.

Technically, you can have a potential difference even without current flowing. However, you won't develop any power across it.

Stranger
I solve mysteries. I don't chase after money. If money doesn't want to chase after me, then so be it.
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