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Old 06-06-2018, 08:15 AM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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How easily do dropped handguns fire? (The Dancing FBI Agent)

See query. Proximate cause of query: a G-Man busting some serious moves.

Was he carrying (I use the term loosely) a weapon with a safety off? Or one in the chamber and that's the way it is? How much does the possibility vary with the weapon manufacture? I didn't look like some freak combination of impacts/events ("the trigger got hooked on a hook'), but are there any that at least in theory could override a safety lock?
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:19 AM
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As I understand it the gun fell out of his pants during his gymnastics and when he went to quickly pick it up he grabbed it in such a way that it accidentally fired (he touched the trigger inadvertently). My guess is that either the safety was off or he inadvertently disabled it while grabbing for the gun on the floor.
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Last edited by dolphinboy; 06-06-2018 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:21 AM
Patch Patch is offline
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Originally Posted by Leo Bloom View Post
See query. Proximate cause of query: a G-Man busting some serious moves.

Was he carrying (I use the term loosely) a weapon with a safety off? Or one in the chamber and that's the way it is? How much does the possibility vary with the weapon manufacture? I didn't look like some freak combination of impacts/events ("the trigger got hooked on a hook'), but are there any that at least in theory could override a safety lock?
It didn't fire when it was dropped. It fired when he picked it up.

I would not expect a pistol to fire when it hits the ground, but I am sure somewhere out there is a sloppy design or two where it can happen.

Last edited by Patch; 06-06-2018 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:33 AM
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There are some really common service pistols' like Glocks, that have no safety. They are prevented from firing when dropped by the nature of the firing mechanism itself. In these pistols, the firing pin is struck by a striker which is entirely internal. The striker has to travel away from the bullet first before it rapidly reverses direction and fires the bullet. The trigger must be pulled to make this happen.

Hammer-fired pistols, if the hammer is cocked, can fire when dropped. Most (maybe all) revolvers and all 1911-style semi-autos are hammer-fired. Most law-enforcement folks carry striker-fired semi-autos these days.

It sounds like this bozo accidentally pulled the trigger.
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:34 AM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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older revolvers with the firing pin as part of the hammer can be "unsafe" when dropped if the hammer is down (un-cocked) with a loaded chamber lined up. if the gun is dropped and the hammer hits the ground first, it can be driven forward causing the pin to strike the primer of the round in the chamber.

modern revolvers employ things like transfer-bar safeties (an intermediate piece between the hammer and firing pin which only raises into position if the trigger is pulled) to make them "drop-safe." Semi-auto pistols have firing pin interlocks which prevent the firing pin or striker from moving forward all the way unless the trigger is pulled; pulling the trigger releases the interlock.


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Originally Posted by dolphinboy View Post
As I understand it the gun fell out of his pants during his gymnastics and when he went to quickly pick it up he grabbed it in such a way that it accidentally fired (he touched the trigger inadvertently). My guess is that either the safety was off or he inadvertently disabled it while grabbing for the gun on the floor.
yep. IIRC almost all unintended discharges of dropped weapons come from the person attempting to grab it out of mid-air or picking it up hastily and inadvertently pulling the trigger. It's commonly taught that if you drop a gun, just let it fall. it's too risky to try to catch it.

edited to add:

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Originally Posted by Crotalus View Post
There are some really common service pistols' like Glocks, that have no safety. They are prevented from firing when dropped by the nature of the firing mechanism itself. In these pistols, the firing pin is struck by a striker which is entirely internal. The striker has to travel away from the bullet first before it rapidly reverses direction and fires the bullet. The trigger must be pulled to make this happen.
this isn't really correct. A "striker" is the firing pin. it's heavier and is fired by being drawn back by the trigger against a stiff spring, and then released. The striker spring is always under some compression even at rest. Glocks have two safeties; the "safe action" trigger (the little lever which prevents the trigger from moving unless your finger is fully on it) and the striker interlock which prevents the striker from reaching the primer unless the trigger is pulled.

Last edited by jz78817; 06-06-2018 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:38 AM
SanDiegoTim SanDiegoTim is offline
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Most modern pistols are equipped with a safety "switch" located close to where your thumb would rest. As reported (gun discharged as he retrieved it) there must have been a round in the chamber and the safety probably in the "unsafe" position. By my way of thinking this would be less than wise. Not so much that a round was chambered, but the safety off.

Last edited by SanDiegoTim; 06-06-2018 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:52 AM
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Older guns tended to use a loose firing pin, which could be driven into the primer and cause the gun to fire if the drop angle was just right. It's actually really rare for a gun getting dropped from waist high to fire, but it was possible with older designs. Modern pistols and revolvers have some kind of interlock to prevent the firing pin from slamming into the cartridge, and causing a modern gun to fire when dropped from a normal height is basically impossible. To be legal for sale in California a gun has to pass drop tests that slam a handgun into the ground muzzle first, and in general anything that law enforcement will choose as a sidearm will pass that drop test.

Note that in the video the handgun didn't fire from being dropped, it fired when he picked it up, which means he must have pulled the trigger. Guns are generally designed to fire when you pull the trigger, so the general advice when picking up a gun is... don't pull the trigger.
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:55 AM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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Originally Posted by SanDiegoTim View Post
Most modern pistols are equipped with a safety "switch" located close to where your thumb would rest. As reported (gun discharged as he retrieved it) there must have been a round in the chamber and the safety probably in the "unsafe" position. By my way of thinking this would be less than wise. Not so much that a round was chambered, but the safety off.
No, they don't. Glocks, to take a very common model, do not have a safety switch like you describe at all, just a trigger safety.
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:58 AM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Yeah, the entire issue here, which is clearly seen on the video, is that the moron grabs the gun in such a way that his finger is on the trigger and it fires.

Inexcusably poor gun safety all around on his part.

"Criminal Negligence" would be the proper term as far as I am concerned.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:15 AM
chappachula chappachula is offline
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Originally Posted by SanDiegoTim View Post
there must have been a round in the chamber and the safety probably in the "unsafe" position. By my way of thinking this would be less than wise. Not so much that a round was chambered, but the safety off.
it seems not just "less-than-wise"---It seems pretty damn stupid and dangerous, for this situation. Why keep a round chambered?
We're in GQ, and I want to keep my comments appropriate to this forum...so please tell me:
What's the standard operation procedure for an FBI agent carrying arms?

This agent was dancing at a party--He was not on patrol in a dangerous area, he wasn't on duty as the bodyguard to a famous person, etc,etc.
Why would you need a bullet in the chamber? The safety could (and did) get accidentaly switched off,maybe just by a little friction with his belt.Which leads to this dangerous situation, when other dancers could have been killed.
But you can't accidently rack the slide and put a bullet in the chamber. Even if the safety does get pushed to "off", you're not going to kill an innocent person if there's no bullet.

Surely common sense would be to leave the chamber empty when you're at a party.
Are there regulations about this for law enforcement officers?
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:21 AM
Orwell Orwell is offline
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
No, they don't. Glocks, to take a very common model, do not have a safety switch like you describe at all, just a trigger safety.
Exactly. I can't tell for sure in that video what kind of pistol it is. But if it is a Glock or similar striker-fired pistol, there is no safety lever. These types of pistols have a trigger safety which is supposed to prevent it from firing if dropped. And if you watch the video, it did not fire when it hit the floor. The FBI agent pulled the trigger when he picked it up, a BIG no-no.

The FBI used to carry Sig pistols with hammers and safety levers, but the one in the video looks more like a striker-fired pistol, though it's hard to tell for sure. As mentioned, most handguns have some sort of mechanism to prevent it from firing if dropped.
  #12  
Old 06-06-2018, 09:24 AM
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Crafter_Man Crafter_Man is offline
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Originally Posted by Crotalus View Post
There are some really common service pistols' like Glocks, that have no safety.
I'll restate what others have said in a different way.

Virtually all modern guns have an internal safety. This prevents the gun from "going off" when dropped or otherwise subjected to mechanical shock. Some guns also have an external safety. This is a manually lever, button, or switch the shooter must manipulate in order for the gun to fire.

Like almost all guns made today, Glocks have an internal safety. Glocks do not have an external safety.

When it comes to handguns, some owners love an external safety, while other owners hate an external safety. My personal preference? I will not buy a handgun with an external safety. IMO there is no logical or rational reason for a handgun to have an external safety.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by chappachula View Post
it seems not just "less-than-wise"---It seems pretty damn stupid and dangerous, for this situation. Why keep a round chambered?
We're in GQ, and I want to keep my comments appropriate to this forum...so please tell me:
What's the standard operation procedure for an FBI agent carrying arms?

This agent was dancing at a party--He was not on patrol in a dangerous area, he wasn't on duty as the bodyguard to a famous person, etc,etc.
Why would you need a bullet in the chamber? The safety could (and did) get accidentaly switched off,maybe just by a little friction with his belt.Which leads to this dangerous situation, when other dancers could have been killed.
But you can't accidently rack the slide and put a bullet in the chamber. Even if the safety does get pushed to "off", you're not going to kill an innocent person if there's no bullet.

Surely common sense would be to leave the chamber empty when you're at a party.
Are there regulations about this for law enforcement officers?
It is standard practice to have a pistol loaded and ready to use, including having a round in the chamber. It is not unsafe if one follows basic gun safety procedures, which this FBI agent did not do when he grabbed the gun.

You have been mislead by TV shows which always seem to show people racking the slide before using their pistol. This is done for TV, but is not common in reality. If you need a gun this very second, you don't have time to rack the slide to load a round into the chamber. It's just not done in real life like that.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:30 AM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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Originally Posted by Leo Bloom View Post
See query. Proximate cause of query: a G-Man busting some serious moves.

Was he carrying (I use the term loosely) a weapon with a safety off? Or one in the chamber and that's the way it is? How much does the possibility vary with the weapon manufacture? I didn't look like some freak combination of impacts/events ("the trigger got hooked on a hook'), but are there any that at least in theory could override a safety lock?
It was a Glock, it's safeties are mostly internal, and it is virtually impossible for one to go off just falling to the ground (and it didn't in this video). When he grabbed it he pulled the trigger and there is no external safety on the glock, other than you have to pull the trigger - you can just grab one and shoot assuming you already chambered a round. And that's what happened here. He quickly picked it up and accidentally pulled the trigger.

I've been researching buying a pistol. The Glock appeals to me, but I don't like that it doesn't have an external safety for this very reason (and others would like it for this precisely this reason - hitting a button in a high stress situation is one more step). It's gonna be a lot harder for a kid to grab his mom's gun out of her purse and kill her in Walmart if it has an external safely though.

Last edited by Ashtura; 06-06-2018 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:32 AM
Tired and Cranky Tired and Cranky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Bloom View Post
See query. Proximate cause of query: a G-Man busting some serious moves.

Was he carrying (I use the term loosely) a weapon with a safety off? Or one in the chamber and that's the way it is? How much does the possibility vary with the weapon manufacture? I didn't look like some freak combination of impacts/events ("the trigger got hooked on a hook'), but are there any that at least in theory could override a safety lock?
I understand that the FBI issues Glock pistols so I will discuss only that pistol. We can quibble about the definition of "safety" but Glocks don't have any safety that the user turns on or off. Glock pistols are designed to go off whenever the trigger is pulled and not to go off if the trigger is not pulled. There is no safety on a Glock that will stop the gun from firing if the trigger is pulled. Most likely, the gun fired because the agent pulled the trigger when he was grabbing it.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:34 AM
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I'll restate what others have said in a different way.

Virtually all modern guns have an internal safety. This prevents the gun from "going off" when dropped or otherwise subjected to mechanical shock. Some guns also have an external safety. This is a manually lever, button, or switch the shooter must manipulate in order for the gun to fire.

Like almost all guns made today, Glocks have an internal safety. Glocks do not have an external safety.

When it comes to handguns, some owners love an external safety, while other owners hate an external safety. My personal preference? I will not buy a handgun with an external safety. IMO there is no logical or rational reason for a handgun to have an external safety.
Doesn't it depend on what the user fears more - accidentally pulling the trigger, or having to go through an extra step before using the weapon (presumably in a situation where you need it for self-defense?)

It would make sense for preferences to vary with use - if you are using the pistol for (say) target-shooting, having an external safety makes sense; if you a cop facing life-or-death situations, it doesn't.
  #17  
Old 06-06-2018, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Crotalus View Post
There are some really common service pistols' like Glocks, that have no safety. They are prevented from firing when dropped by the nature of the firing mechanism itself....
It sounds like this bozo accidentally pulled the trigger.
If I understand this correctly, not only did he accidentally pull the trigger, but he already had a round in the chamber.

I'm pretty sure this is how a Glock works. Other safety-less uncocked guns would require considerable trigger pressure to fire, no?

It sounds like this FBI agent was ready to fight al-Qaeda at a moment's notice, with a round already in the chamber and everything. We should be grateful for his vigilance?
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Malthus View Post
Doesn't it depend on what the user fears more - accidentally pulling the trigger, or having to go through an extra step before using the weapon (presumably in a situation where you need it for self-defense?)

It would make sense for preferences to vary with use - if you are using the pistol for (say) target-shooting, having an external safety makes sense; if you a cop facing life-or-death situations, it doesn't.
Yeah, both of these are valid questions/positions. IMO (and straying a bit from the intention of the original question), striker-fired pistols make lousy target pistols. The triggers are crappy (IMO), and the sights are rudimentary for true precision target shooting. Now, they are used for defense simulation recreation and shooting sports, as are single-action pistols with hammers and safeties. In general, hammer-fired guns with safety levers have better triggers, and usually better sights.

There are also double-action-only handguns with hammers and no safety levers, as well as striker-fired pistols with safety levers. I suspect you could count up at least six different firing/safety types, and all have their fans for various purposes.

In the end, as the old-timers say, keep your bugger-picker off of the bang switch and it won't go off.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:55 AM
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It sounds like this FBI agent was ready to fight al-Qaeda at a moment's notice, with a round already in the chamber and everything. We should be grateful for his vigilance?
Again, it is common and expected to have a round in the chamber. It's standard procedure. If I have a loaded gun - whether for hunting, target shooting or self-defense - there is a round in the chamber. There are exceptions, like unloading the chamber to cross a fence while hunting, but if I'm walking around hunting, there is a round in the chamber.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:57 AM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Some law enforcement agencies, most notoriously NYPD, issue their sidearms with a trigger that takes extra effort to pull. This does create a problem with accuracy and quick reactions, and is no substitute for the basic “keep finger off the trigger until really trying to shoot” safety principle.

As observed, the weapon did not go off from the drop, so the safeties worked. Operator carelessness when grabbing for the gun was the cause of the discharge.
Then again, he sould not have needed to grab for it in the first place.
  #21  
Old 06-06-2018, 09:57 AM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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If I understand this correctly, not only did he accidentally pull the trigger, but he already had a round in the chamber.
why do you find this surprising?
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:58 AM
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If I understand this correctly, not only did he accidentally pull the trigger, but he already had a round in the chamber.

I'm pretty sure this is how a Glock works. Other safety-less uncocked guns would require considerable trigger pressure to fire, no?

It sounds like this FBI agent was ready to fight al-Qaeda at a moment's notice, with a round already in the chamber and everything. We should be grateful for his vigilance?
I'm pretty sure most law enforcement keep a round in the chamber at all times. Glocks have a consistent trigger pull with every shot too.

I don't think he should have had a round in the chamber in this particular instance, but I think his dumbest mistake was doing backflips with a gun tucked in the back of his pants.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:02 AM
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In my experience (30+ years law enforcement experience) a modern handgun will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. Dropping a gun should not cause it to discharge. There may be some extremely rare exceptions to this. I believe that he put his finger on the trigger when he picked it up and pulled it negligently. If one is going to carry a concealed handgun it must be in a secure holster, obviously not the case here.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:03 AM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Some law enforcement agencies, most notoriously NYPD, issue their sidearms with a trigger that takes extra effort to pull. This does create a problem with accuracy and quick reactions
That's why I got rid of my S&W DA .40. Ridiculously long trigger pull that became a bit too stiff when it hit the breakpoint. Pretty much had to pull the trigger to that point, then aim and hope I didn't pull the gun in one direction or another through the break. No way I would have wanted to depend on that thing in an emergency.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:04 AM
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I've been researching buying a pistol. The Glock appeals to me, but I don't like that it doesn't have an external safety for this very reason (and others would like it for this precisely this reason - hitting a button in a high stress situation is one more step). It's gonna be a lot harder for a kid to grab his mom's gun out of her purse and kill her in Walmart if it has an external safely though.
I love that the Sherrif says "The shooting appears to be accidental." I think that the 2yo kid had it all planned and just made it look like an accident.

I also note that in the original clip, the FBI guy slopes off, rather than rushing over to help the person he shot. He looked just like a kid... "Who - me?" as he tucked the gun back in his pants.

Last edited by bob++; 06-06-2018 at 10:06 AM.
  #26  
Old 06-06-2018, 10:06 AM
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I don't think he should have had a round in the chamber in this particular instance, but I think his dumbest mistake was doing backflips with a gun tucked in the back of his pants.
Whoa, what? I can't see the video right now, but did he really have it tucked in his pants? Why? Don't FBI agents have holsters?
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:08 AM
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Is he required to be armed when off duty?
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
Some law enforcement agencies, most notoriously NYPD, issue their sidearms with a trigger that takes extra effort to pull. This does create a problem with accuracy and quick reactions, and is no substitute for the basic “keep finger off the trigger until really trying to shoot” safety principle.

As observed, the weapon did not go off from the drop, so the safeties worked. Operator carelessness when grabbing for the gun was the cause of the discharge.
Then again, he sould not have needed to grab for it in the first place.
Yeah, I find the 'pulled the trigger while picking it up' part even more negligent than the 'dropped pistol while doing backflips' part. It's just so basic to gun safety not to do that.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:18 AM
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Whoa, what? I can't see the video right now, but did he really have it tucked in his pants? Why? Don't FBI agents have holsters?
It's kind of hard to tell, but it definitely looks like it came out the back of his pants. He may have a holster there, but if he did it was in the buttcrack area (which is unusual)
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:23 AM
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muldoonthief muldoonthief is offline
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Is he required to be armed when off duty?
According to this article, it's up to the agent whether they carry or not off-duty.

And honestly, how could a requirement to always be armed off-duty be realistic? LEOs have actual lives at times. Can they never have a few drinks off duty, or go to the beach, or anything like that?

According to this article the bar he was in has rules against carrying firearms on premises.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:27 AM
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It's kind of hard to tell, but it definitely looks like it came out the back of his pants. He may have a holster there, but if he did it was in the buttcrack area (which is unusual)
Small of the back (s.o.b.) holsters are designed for that area, typically for backup guns.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:30 AM
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it seems not just "less-than-wise"---It seems pretty damn stupid and dangerous, for this situation. Why keep a round chambered?

I always keep a round chambered when I carry as I can't guarantee I'll have both hands free to manipulate the slide. You also don't want to be in a high-stress situation, draw your gun, and fumble the slide and cause a malfunction.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:54 AM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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On a side note, why does USA today obscure his face?
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:56 AM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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...
According to this article the bar he was in has rules against carrying firearms on premises.
Surely this cannot be upheld tout court with LEOs. On the other hand, I believe "normal" LEOs traveling must turn over their weapons during a civilian air flight.
  #35  
Old 06-06-2018, 11:19 AM
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Again, it is common and expected to have a round in the chamber. It's standard procedure. If I have a loaded gun - whether for hunting, target shooting or self-defense - there is a round in the chamber. There are exceptions, like unloading the chamber to cross a fence while hunting, but if I'm walking around hunting, there is a round in the chamber.
And what was he hunting? Flip-dancing terrorists?

I suppose I've proven my gun ignorance, but in hindsight I hope we can agree I'm less ignorant than this FBI agent. The conjunction of flip-dancing with an unsecured pistol and having a round in its chamber was wrong — I hope we can agree on that.

The "need" to have one's Glock ready to fire without cocking is lost on me. (Yes, yes, I understand the saved second has a one-in-a-billion chance of saving your life. But is it contrary to Second Amendment principles to include accidental discharges in the cost-benefit analysis?)

You're all welcome to come mug me in Thailand! Because if/when I get my Glock I will not be carrying it around with a round in the chamber!

Last edited by septimus; 06-06-2018 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 11:23 AM
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... (Yes, yes, I understand the saved second has a one-in-a-billion chance of saving your life. But is it contrary to Second Amendment principles to include accidental discharges in the cost-benefit analysis?)...
* screeching needle on record sound * *thread heads off cliff *

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Old 06-06-2018, 11:28 AM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
And what was he hunting? Flip-dancing terrorists?

I suppose I've proven my gun ignorance, but in hindsight I hope we can agree I'm less ignorant than this FBI agent. The conjunction of flip-dancing with an unsecured pistol and having a round in its chamber was wrong — I hope we can agree on that.
stop emphasizing "having a round in its chamber." it doesn't enhance your point nor make you right.

every (armed) police officer, every (armed) federal agent, every (armed) service person, and every (armed) CPL holder carries with a round in the chamber.

racking the slide to show the bad guy that you mean business may look cool in the movies, but that's not how things really work.

Last edited by jz78817; 06-06-2018 at 11:30 AM.
  #38  
Old 06-06-2018, 11:28 AM
rat avatar rat avatar is offline
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It is quite clearly a negligent discharge and not a mechanical malfunction.

Like trying to catch a falling knife our monkey brains are not good at fine motor control when trying to act that quickly.

Or like learning to skateboard or ski, where one has to modify normal reflex actions to avoid injury.

Modern firearms have several methods to avoid firing when dropped, but the fact that it didn't fire until he grasp him excludes the possibility of the drop being the cause.

While I feel bad for him he deserves to be held responsible for this negligence.
  #39  
Old 06-06-2018, 11:34 AM
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This wasn't an accidental discharge. This was a negligent discharge.

Also, when your toddler pulls your gun out of your purse and shoots you in the face? That's not an accident either.
  #40  
Old 06-06-2018, 11:45 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
stop emphasizing "having a round in its chamber." it doesn't enhance your point nor make you right.

every (armed) police officer, every (armed) federal agent, every (armed) service person, and every (armed) CPL holder carries with a round in the chamber.

racking the slide to show the bad guy that you mean business may look cool in the movies, but that's not how things really work.
Do they carry that way while not on duty? While in a club? While dancing? While doing a back flip?

Is there anything at all that this agent did wrong, or was it really the guy who got shot who is at fault for being in the way of an FBI agent's justified discharge?
  #41  
Old 06-06-2018, 11:53 AM
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muldoonthief muldoonthief is offline
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Originally Posted by Leo Bloom View Post
Surely this cannot be upheld tout court with LEOs. On the other hand, I believe "normal" LEOs traveling must turn over their weapons during a civilian air flight.
An on-duty LEO of course entering an establishment in the course of duty would be obviously be exempt from any "No firearms allowed" rule. But why would an off-duty LEO be exempt? Especially if he's planning on getting drunk & doing back flips. Don't the normal rules for trespass apply to off-duty LEOs?
  #42  
Old 06-06-2018, 11:57 AM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Do they carry that way while not on duty? While in a club? While dancing? While doing a back flip?

Is there anything at all that this agent did wrong,
yes, he did not have his firearm secured properly on his person while doing something careless, and was reckless in his attempt to reclaim it leading to him inadvertently (and negligently) pulling the trigger.

Quote:
or was it really the guy who got shot who is at fault for being in the way of an FBI agent's justified discharge?
  #43  
Old 06-06-2018, 12:14 PM
Orwell Orwell is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Do they carry that way while not on duty? While in a club? While dancing? While doing a back flip?

Is there anything at all that this agent did wrong, or was it really the guy who got shot who is at fault for being in the way of an FBI agent's justified discharge?
Have you read any of the previous comments? I don't see anyone saying the FBI agent did nothing wrong. The main thing he did wrong was pull the trigger as he picked up the pistol. That is very, very wrong, and a complete violation of gun safety rules. I would also say that the pistol was insufficiently secure on him, and/or he exceeded the retention capabilities of his holster. He either wasn't wearing a holster, which seems unlikely for someone experienced in carrying a handgun, or the holster wasn't capable of retaining a pistol during backflips.

But focusing on having a loaded chamber shows ignorance on how guns are carried and used, and misses the main points of answering the OP's question: 1) the pistol did not fire due to being dropped and hitting the floor; and 2) it fired because someone pulled the trigger, negligently.
  #44  
Old 06-06-2018, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by chappachula View Post
Surely common sense would be to leave the chamber empty when you're at a party.
Are there regulations about this for law enforcement officers?
No. Common sense would be to either not carry a gun because you're in a situation where you aren't going to be in control of it, or carry it in an appropriately ready to use condition. In situations where you're going to need to draw and use a concealed firearm, you're very often not going to have time or hands free to rack the slide. If the guy knew he was going to be moving like that (and/or drinking, which I suspect was involved) then he should store the gun before going to the party, if he just took the round out of the chamber it would be really weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muldoonthief View Post
An on-duty LEO of course entering an establishment in the course of duty would be obviously be exempt from any "No firearms allowed" rule. But why would an off-duty LEO be exempt? Especially if he's planning on getting drunk & doing back flips. Don't the normal rules for trespass apply to off-duty LEOs?
Lots of places exempt off-duty LEOs from weapons laws, including concealed carry laws, the why is 'because the law is written that way'. In Colorado that's irrelevant because signs posted don't have any effect on whether someone can carry except for certain areas listed specifically in the law (a bar or restaurant isn't one of those places, but if he was drinking he's not allowed to carry). Trespass laws are pretty much irrelevant, as trespassing generally requires that you first warn the person for violating trespass, then tell them to leave, then press charges if they don't. They would technically apply, but pressing trespassing charges against an LEO is extremely risky and difficult for an ordinary person to do in practice.
  #45  
Old 06-06-2018, 12:42 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
Have you read any of the previous comments? I don't see anyone saying the FBI agent did nothing wrong. The main thing he did wrong was pull the trigger as he picked up the pistol. That is very, very wrong, and a complete violation of gun safety rules. I would also say that the pistol was insufficiently secure on him, and/or he exceeded the retention capabilities of his holster. He either wasn't wearing a holster, which seems unlikely for someone experienced in carrying a handgun, or the holster wasn't capable of retaining a pistol during backflips.
Yes, I did, and they were all focused on justifying carrying a round in the chamber while dancing.
Quote:
But focusing on having a loaded chamber shows ignorance on how guns are carried and used, and misses the main points of answering the OP's question: 1) the pistol did not fire due to being dropped and hitting the floor; and 2) it fired because someone pulled the trigger, negligently.
It would be ignorant to believe that a round *has* to be chambered. It is not ignorance to ask why one was while the guy was dancing.
  #46  
Old 06-06-2018, 12:57 PM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Yes, I did, and they were all focused on justifying carrying a round in the chamber while dancing.


It would be ignorant to believe that a round *has* to be chambered. It is not ignorance to ask why one was while the guy was dancing.
as is usual, people focus on the wrong detail.

he shouldn't have had the gun on his person at all if he was going to be dancing. if you are authorized to carry a concealed weapon, the law generally requires you to keep it concealed. moaning about whether a round was chambered is pointless.

and I'll remind you, this sidebar stems from septimus's incredulity that the gun had a round in the chamber period.

Last edited by jz78817; 06-06-2018 at 12:57 PM.
  #47  
Old 06-06-2018, 03:24 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
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Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post

he shouldn't have had the gun on his person at all if he was going to be dancing.
I agree. I surely wouldn't do anything like that with a weapon on my person, but I'm not that accomplished at handling firearms.
Apparently the FBI guy isn't either.
  #48  
Old 06-06-2018, 03:44 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
as is usual, people focus on the wrong detail.

he shouldn't have had the gun on his person at all if he was going to be dancing. if you are authorized to carry a concealed weapon, the law generally requires you to keep it concealed. moaning about whether a round was chambered is pointless.

and I'll remind you, this sidebar stems from septimus's incredulity that the gun had a round in the chamber period.
It is not all that pointless, and the guy moaning is the guy who got shot, who would not have been shot had the gun not had a round chambered and ready for when the dance battle gets real.

And it wasn't "period", it was "while dancing".

There are many things to focus on here, and not all of them are the things that you want to focus on. Sure, we can beat on him for taking his gun into a bar. We can beat on him for not properly securing his weapon. We can beat on him for his dancing, as that was pretty horrendous. We can beat on him for being reckless in the way he picked up his gun.

But, you are saying that we cannot even mention the one thing he could have done to increase the safety of his gun by several orders of magnitude.

But, I get it, if we admit that if you are dancing on the floor and doing flips, that you should remove the round from the chamber so it is not ready to fire with a single trigger pull, then we will have to ask that parents not leave a round in the chamber where their toddlers can get to them and shoot someone.
  #49  
Old 06-06-2018, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bob++ View Post
I love that the Sherrif says "The shooting appears to be accidental."
Accidental discharges are very, very rare. When someone calls an unintended shooting an "accidental discharge," it is almost always a negligent discharge, not an accidental discharge.
  #50  
Old 06-06-2018, 04:35 PM
Nars Glinley Nars Glinley is offline
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My personal preference? I will not buy a handgun with an external safety. IMO there is no logical or rational reason for a handgun to have an external safety.
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