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Old 07-27-2018, 03:48 AM
Delicious Delicious is offline
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Water Fluoridation Good? What else could we add?

I believe it's generally accepted that adding fluoride to drinking water is generally a good thing; it helps with dental health and the mild mind control effects help to keep a society peaceful.

What I'm curious about though is whether there are other substances that could be added to the general drinking water supply that could be safe, beneficial and I suppose cost effective (but that's less important, we can assume an infinitely rich city if necessary for an interesting addition).

I was thinking Vitamin D for far north/south places but it turns out it's not water soluble.
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:55 AM
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and the mild mind control effects help to keep a society peaceful.
What?

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What I'm curious about though is whether there are other substances that could be added to the general drinking water supply that could be safe, beneficial and I suppose cost effective (but that's less important, we can assume an infinitely rich city if necessary for an interesting addition).
Chlorine, but they already have that.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:14 AM
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I think I've seen suggestions that a small amount of lithium should be added to reduce the risk of dementia.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:28 AM
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Chlorine, but they already have that.
More chlorinated water tastes, IMO, nasty.

Admittedly I don't know if that's the taste of the chemical, or that the water they need to chlorinate more already has yucky stuff in it.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:58 AM
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I believe it's generally accepted that adding fluoride to drinking water is generally a good thing; it helps with dental health and the mild mind control effects help to keep a society peaceful.
The one reasonable argument against it that I've seen is that it's not very cost-effective: you're paying to fluoridate the water for everybody, but the only people who have been shown to really need it are kids. Other delivery methods could be more cost effective, e.g. the fluoride pills my parents gave to me and my siblings when we were kids - but of course this assumes that every parent would give those pills to their kids. They won't. So I guess the counterargument is that while water fluoridation may not be the most cost-effective method of getting fluoride to every kid, it's damn reliable.

What else can we add to the water supply? How about folate? Deficiencies can cause neural tube defects in a developing fetus. The US mandates supplementing various foods with it, and recommends that newly-pregnant women take an extra supplement. But like fluoride intake, there are plenty of women who won't hear/heed the message. Dental cavities suck, sure, but having your spinal cord dangling in the breeze instead of being stored safely next to your spine is a whole different kind of suck; it's obviously bad for the victim's quality of life, but it also presents an enormous health care cost. Want to make sure every pregnancy starts out with adequate folate? Howzabout we treat the water supply with it?
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Old 07-27-2018, 07:45 AM
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I think I've seen suggestions that a small amount of lithium should be added to reduce the risk of dementia.
Or possibly lower crime rates. IIRC the science isn't very solid for either.

I remember this coming up because El Paso's water supply has a high lithium level. And El Paso has a low crime rate, despite being relatively poor.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:00 AM
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I believe it's generally accepted that adding fluoride to drinking water is generally a good thing; it helps with dental health and the mild mind control effects help to keep a society peaceful.
Bolding mine.

Could we have a cite for the bolded claim?
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:19 AM
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Hush now, citizen. Nothing to see here.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:52 AM
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Caffeine.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:54 AM
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I remember this coming up because El Paso's water supply has a high lithium level. And El Paso has a low crime rate, despite being relatively poor.
It's True El Paso has a relatively low violent crime rate, but New York City and Jersey City have even lower ones.
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Old 07-27-2018, 10:18 AM
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. . . Chlorine, but they already have that.
Chlorine is added to kill things, not as a supplement.

Can't think of anything to add to the water supply. Chocolate doesn't dissolve.
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Old 07-27-2018, 11:25 AM
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Bolding mine.

Could we have a cite for the bolded claim?
My assumption is that he/she was joking (See Dr. Strangelove).
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Old 07-27-2018, 11:38 AM
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Or possibly lower crime rates. IIRC the science isn't very solid for either.

I remember this coming up because El Paso's water supply has a high lithium level. And El Paso has a low crime rate, despite being relatively poor.
There was a premise like this in a short story by Stephen King called The End of the Whole Mess, where the guy's brother isolates some chemical in the water of a Texas town that makes the people very peaceful, he creates a way to spread it around in rain or something to the whole world, his plan works, but he failed to also find that the chemical causes some form of Dementia or Alzheimer's or something and he basically kills the whole world.
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Old 07-27-2018, 11:50 AM
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My assumption is that he/she was joking (See Dr. Strangelove).
Or an Alex Jones fan.
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Old 07-27-2018, 11:56 AM
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It's True El Paso has a relatively low violent crime rate, but New York City and Jersey City have even lower ones.
586 and 522 per 100k vs 367. One of us is reading the table wrong. Do explain if it's me, because I'm not seeing it.
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Old 07-27-2018, 12:52 PM
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Lithium can also help reduce suicide risk.

I haven't read all of this study, and it seems to be devoted to clinical doses of lithium.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4504869/

But doses measured in less than 10mg, or possibly mcg can supposedly have an anti-suicide effect too. Seeing how suicide is a leading cause of death for people under 55, that could be an issue.
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:33 PM
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Orthophosphate is added to water supplies in communities with a lot of lead pipe.
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Old 07-27-2018, 03:28 PM
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Add all kinds of stuff. What better way to do product testing for liquids? You have a huge sample size...
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:32 PM
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Carbonation?
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:50 PM
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586 and 522 per 100k vs 367. One of us is reading the table wrong. Do explain if it's me, because I'm not seeing it.
Ooops, it seems I was looking at the property crime rates, not the violent crime rates.
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:57 PM
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I remember this coming up because El Paso's water supply has a high lithium level. And El Paso has a low crime rate, despite being relatively poor.
I just had a flashback from 40 years ago - wasn't this factoid mentioned in the movie The Stepford Wives? I haven't seen that movie since then, but I can still picture where the women were standing when it was said.
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:01 PM
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I just had a flashback from 40 years ago - wasn't this factoid mentioned in the movie The Stepford Wives? I haven't seen that movie since then, but I can still picture where the women were standing when it was said.
No idea. I thought I read about the lithium levels in the annual report from the water utility. But I don't see it listed in their most recent report. Maybe it was in the local news or something.

https://www.epwater.org/UserFiles/Se...y/dwr_2017.pdf
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:15 PM
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How about folate?
There's some negatives associated with it. Too much folic acid (the additive in enriched foods) is associated with some negative health impacts. It can make it hard to detect B12 deficiencies that are causing other serious health issues. It can interfere with a cancer treatment drug and a couple anti-epileptic medications. Having too much can also increase the risk of colorectal cancer. (US NIH fact sheet as a cite)

..and the thing I searched for that I had remembered seeing a while back. Too much folate is bad during pregnancy too. Very high levels of folate in pregnant women are associated with higher autism risk for their children. (Cite.)http://https://www.webmd.com/baby/ne...-risk-in-study

Like many things that are good for us, more isn't necessarily better.
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:59 PM
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What about iodine? I seem to recall some worry with the increasing popularity of fancy un-iodized salts (sea salt, etc.) that iodine deficiency would become an issue again.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:04 PM
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Oral contraceptives.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:07 PM
Tim@T-Bonham.net Tim@T-Bonham.net is offline
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The one reasonable argument against it that I've seen is that it's not very cost-effective: you're paying to fluoridate the water for everybody, but the only people who have been shown to really need it are kids. Other delivery methods could be more cost effective, e.g. the fluoride pills my parents gave to me and my siblings when we were kids - but of course this assumes that every parent would give those pills to their kids. They won't. So I guess the counterargument is that while water fluoridation may not be the most cost-effective method of getting fluoride to every kid, it's damn reliable.
I believe there are studies to show that it IS cost-effective, from the perspective of the whole society.

While it costs more than if every parent every day gave a fluoride pill to every kid, and every kid swallowed them, in reality, that option is never going to happen. And it is the lower-class, poorest, least-educated parents (& their already disadvantaged kids) who would be least likely to do this consistently -- and those are the least likely to have regular dental care. Until it becomes a serious enough issue to require medical intervention (usually via hospital ER rooms of government medical programs). And it's much more costly to treat at that time/.

(You could also argue that such kids are more likely to end up in prison, where taxpayers will pay for their dental treatment; and it would cost more due to their lack of fluoride treatment as kids.)

So overall, it's said that fluoride treatment in water is cost-effective for society, even if a lot of the water is wasted on adults who don't need it, or on non-drinking use (showers, tubs, toilets, dishwashers, washing machines, etc. -- that's most of our public water use).
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:34 AM
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Bolding mine.

Could we have a cite for the bolded claim?
Hmm, i don't remember typing that, must have been dehydrated, had lots of water to drink today and clearly it's a false claim.
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Old 07-28-2018, 11:33 AM
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Oral contraceptives.
Hah, we're already stealthily sterilizing people via vaccines.

Other stuff being added to our water by the New World Order: aluminum, barium, cadmium, strontium 90, viruses, "chaff" and "metallo-estrogens". It's a devilishly effective depopulation conspiracy, which is why world population keeps rising.
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Old 07-28-2018, 12:39 PM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is online now
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Bolding mine.

Could we have a cite for the bolded claim?
I believe, hopefully not naively, that OP is making a funny and paraphrasing General Ripper's eloquent explanation of why you never see a Commie drinking water.

Last edited by Leo Bloom; 07-28-2018 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 07-28-2018, 01:05 PM
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If another additive is deemed beneficial, one has to ask if it's reasonable to distribute via the water system. Are things like lithium, folate, and iodine stable enough to make it through the distribution pipes to end users without breaking down? What if they precipitate out and create sludge or scale? Would any of these things be incompatible with one another, or the fluoride, chlorine, or orthophosphate that's already in the water, causing chemical reactions, decomposition, or precipitation? Might some chemicals, or combination of chemicals, be damaging to the pipes themselves, which would be exacerbated where it sits for a long time, like in fire sprinklers? Would they introduce a bad taste or odor, cause staining of fixtures and clothes, or be bad for watering plants? Could they be toxic to pets, or cause skin irritation from bathing? There's a lot of factors at play.
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Old 07-28-2018, 01:59 PM
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Killjoy.

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Old 07-28-2018, 05:30 PM
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What about adding Brawndo, it's what plants crave!!!
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Old 07-29-2018, 01:35 AM
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Oral contraceptives.
A bunch of that ends up in water anyway. Not every bit of every drug people take is broken down by the body; some passes through unchanged and ends up in the sewers. Unfortunately, waste water treatment plants usually don't break them down so they end up in wherever the treated water is disgorged by the plants (usually downriver or into the ocean). And there they may cause environmental problems. Contraceptives, by the way, seem to be especially bad for fish.

So my answer to the OP is: Nothing.
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Old 07-29-2018, 02:42 AM
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I came in to say lithium.

I actually wonder if we aren't all suffering from mild lithium deficiencies in modern day, given the seeming growth of depression as the years go on.

Of course, that could just be differences in people seeking psychological help and differences between what qualified before and today. But we could sample blood levels and see if we're mostly deficient.

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It's True El Paso has a relatively low violent crime rate, but New York City and Jersey City have even lower ones.
Anecdote is not data. Lithium studies use, as I recall, use data across hundreds or thousands of towns. If you just compare two or three, then other variables can take over. The effect of lithium is just one small component of the world we live in.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-29-2018 at 02:43 AM.
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:11 PM
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I actually wonder if we aren't all suffering from mild lithium deficiencies in modern day …
What are you talking about? Lithium is not an essential mineral – in fact, the beneficial effects from taking Li2CO3 are primarily due to the fact that the lithium ions supplant sodium ions along the carrier axons, changing their transmission rates (slowing shit down, as I recall). Adding it in trace to water could be a net positive for everyone affected, but it would not help address some kind of deficiency.

Last edited by eschereal; 07-29-2018 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:13 PM
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Do we want our shit slowing down?
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Old 07-29-2018, 04:16 PM
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Several cities around here have stopped fluoridation, which I think is a bad idea. I think they argue toothpaste is a sufficient source.

I think grape flavour, antidepressants, antibiotics, Soylent green, appetite suppressants, distemper shots, carbonation, laughing gas, vitamins, birth control, metformin and powdered vegetables are all terrible ideas which nonetheless merit serious consideration. If it isn’t already in there.
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Old 07-29-2018, 04:20 PM
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Mercury, though. We are definitely not getting enough mercury.
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Old 07-29-2018, 05:24 PM
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What are you talking about? Lithium is not an essential mineral – in fact, the beneficial effects from taking Li2CO3 are primarily due to the fact that the lithium ions supplant sodium ions along the carrier axons, changing their transmission rates (slowing shit down, as I recall). Adding it in trace to water could be a net positive for everyone affected, but it would not help address some kind of deficiency.
Just because something is not an essential mineral (i.e. one where we keel over and die a horrible death) doesn't mean that you can't be deficient and the current science would seem to be leading that direction:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Oq...ciency&f=false

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...mP6O5Pv3BPLSr3

I believe that they only revise the big books of official illnesses and ailments like once a decade, so we could still have to wait a while, if the science is strong enough to support it and the topic gets notice for debate, but I think it's likely that it will be added in a revision or two.

Obviously, I may be wrong, but the science has been replicated now in rats, in Japan, the US, Greece (if I remember correctly), and somewhere in Scandinavia (if I remember correctly) and the rat studies show markable health effects over generations and psychological effects during maturity. That all seems pretty compelling.

And it would make sense that if we missed the implications of lithium deficiency that there might not be sufficient guarantees in place to make sure that the population is getting enough, and so we would start to see issues, studies would run, and reveal that issues are forming in locations where there are insufficient sources.
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:38 PM
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What about iodine? I seem to recall some worry with the increasing popularity of fancy un-iodized salts (sea salt, etc.) that iodine deficiency would become an issue again.
Iodine is sometimes used to disinfect water supplies in emergencies, but the flap about iodized salt was because iodine happens to have a narrow margin between the required amount you should get, and the level at which too much is detrimental. Adding it routinely to the water, which some people will consume in huge quantities compared to other people, is probably not a good idea. It was added to salt because goiters from iodine deficiency were fairly common, as there isn't a huge list of foods that contain iodine (eggs do, at least, which helps). At that, if people are really getting to much iodine from iodized salt, it's because a lot of people eat WAY too much salt. Address that, rather than deiodizing the salt.

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Old 07-29-2018, 07:55 PM
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Hah, we're already stealthily sterilizing people via vaccines.

Other stuff being added to our water by the New World Order: aluminum, barium, cadmium, strontium 90, viruses, "chaff" and "metallo-estrogens". It's a devilishly effective depopulation conspiracy, which is why world population keeps rising.
The majority of first world countries have sub-replacement fertility. First world population increases are mostly fueled by immigration from poorer countries.

Countries that don't put all the population controlling additives into the water supply!
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Old 07-29-2018, 07:59 PM
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"Deiodizing" salt isn't a thing. The issue is that only standard table salt has ever been iodized in the first place. When people stop using that in favor of sea salt, Himalayan salt, or kosher salt, then they don't have any other way of getting iodine. It's not easy to find as a vitamin supplement (dunno why), and I suspect that trying to iodize those other salts would ruin their texture, taste, or kosherness (?). Another factor, and this is one I haven't verified so anyone in the know please chime in, is that the mountains of salt we ingest in processed food is also not iodized. I assume that's for cost reasons first and foremost, if it's really true, but maybe it would cause overdosing too.
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Old 07-29-2018, 08:03 PM
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What about iodine? I seem to recall some worry with the increasing popularity of fancy un-iodized salts (sea salt, etc.) that iodine deficiency would become an issue again.
Also a number of other trace minerals, including Selenium. However, unlike iodine, the other trace minerals are (mostly?) toxic with only a very small amount over the minimum required, which means that suggestions of water supplementation tend to go along the lines: we thought about it, but it's obviously a bad idea.
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Old 07-29-2018, 08:06 PM
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"Deiodizing" salt isn't a thing. The issue is that only standard table salt has ever been iodized in the first place. .
Sea water contains plenty of iodine, as does seaweed. The process of selective crystallization used to produce "sea salt" tends to concentrate the iodine in the water, and purify the iodine out of the salt. It's an unfortunate side effect of industrial salt production.

Last edited by Melbourne; 07-29-2018 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:12 AM
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… or kosherness (?). …
Salt is not subject to being approved by the local Rabbi. The salt is used for “koshering” meat, which is a dry-brining process.
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Old 07-30-2018, 08:28 AM
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While it costs more than if every parent every day gave a fluoride pill to every kid, and every kid swallowed them, in reality, that option is never going to happen.
You speak as though you're disagreeing with me, but you're pretty much saying what I said.
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Old 07-30-2018, 03:07 PM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is online now
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I came in to say lithium.

I actually wonder if we aren't all suffering from mild lithium deficiencies in modern day, given the seeming growth of depression as the years go on.

Of course, that could just be differences in people seeking psychological help and differences between what qualified before and today. But we could sample blood levels and see if we're mostly deficient.



Anecdote is not data. Lithium studies use, as I recall, use data across hundreds or thousands of towns. If you just compare two or three, then other variables can take over. The effect of lithium is just one small component of the world we live in.
Hold the phone. Lithium was a revolutionary medicine for bipolar illness--it is a mood-stabilizer, a band-filter, as it were.

It is woefully ineffective for "depression," unless it presents as part of manic-depression; depression alone (ie a different illness) is psychopharcologically treated differently.

FTR, lithium, although still in use I believe, is now considered a 3rd (4th?) generation medication. Also, FTR, it saved my life.

In any event, forced ingestion of "happy pills"--social control, right --won't do squat for the vast majority of people without depression and without medication, since they don't exist.

Last edited by Leo Bloom; 07-30-2018 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 07-30-2018, 03:17 PM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is online now
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Salt is not subject to being approved by the local Rabbi. The salt is used for “koshering” meat, which is a dry-brining process.
To extend on this little side note, the product we see is called "kosher salt" is merely large-grain salt, which makes it easier to wash off the meat after it is kashered (that's the verb).

Although the Morton's and Diamond Kosher Salt brands stay in business I presume because they are widely used by amateur and professional cooks, being easily grab-able by hand.

FWIW, people who use volume (as opposed to mass/weight) measurements for salt must take into account not only that the same volume of table salt is a lot more salt, but that the same applies to Morton and Diamond, which differ in grain size.

Last edited by Leo Bloom; 07-30-2018 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 07-30-2018, 03:30 PM
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ETA on happy pills: Lithium is toxic as all get out. Anyone using it must have regular blood scans to monitor their blood levels or bad things happen.
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Old 07-30-2018, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Bloom View Post
ETA on happy pills: Lithium is toxic as all get out. Anyone using it must have regular blood scans to monitor their blood levels or bad things happen.
Clinical doses of lithium are measured in hundreds of mgs.

The dosage for water to help prevent suicide would probably be a few mg per liter, or possibly measured in mcg per liter.

This article claims 40mcg/liter is the cutoff where benefits for certain health benefits start happening.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1205144805.htm

According to an article on this site, 730mcg to 10mg a day is the dose that lowers suicide rates.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...cide_mortality
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 07-30-2018 at 03:51 PM.
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