Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-06-2019, 10:39 AM
Jonathan Chance is offline
Domo Arigato Mister Moderato
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: On the run with Kilroy
Posts: 22,368

A Bajoran Carrying a Human Child: Cross Species Gestation


OK, hold on here.

Last night I was blowing up potatoes with fireworks and got some up my nose. I sneezed many, many times following that.

For the record, exploded potato mixed with gunpowder is downright caustic.

So, following multiple sneezes, I quipped, "Man, I am sneezing like a pregnant Bajoran." Much was the laughter.

But it led my oldest to ask, "OK, I forget why Kira had to carry Keiko's baby but it happened. But could it happen?"

Yes, we're nerds.

But it raises an interesting question. Could a cross-species gestational implanting work? Human sperm and ova combined and then nurtured to viability in another specie's womb? Yes, the issue in DS9 is larger, given that it's not even different species but an entirely different ecology and evolutionary system but I think it applies locally. Would another species provide the right environment, nutrients et al for a human embryo to grow and thrive? Or is there something about gestation that is species-specific? If so, how?

I can't imagine it hasn't occurred somewhere. Not with humans but with other domesticated species. We've certainly done enough to our animal partners that I'd be surprised, frankly, if it hadn't somewhere.

If it has happened, what's the furthest apart that it has occurred. I don't think anyone would be surprised if a dog could carry a little of wolves. But what about more divergent spots on the tree? Could a cat carry an otter? Or an elephant a rhino?

Enquiring Bajoran minds want to know.
  #2  
Old 03-06-2019, 10:42 AM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 is offline
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 14,031
TIL that there's a term for this: interspecific pregnancy. The Wikipedia article in the link is rather light on examples, unfortunately.
  #3  
Old 03-06-2019, 10:46 AM
manson1972's Avatar
manson1972 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,662
Searching for "Panda cat womb", I came across this article: Interspecies implantation and mitochondria fate of panda-rabbit cloned embryos.

From it: "The results demonstrated that panda-rabbit cloned embryos can implant in the uterus of a third species, the domestic cat"

What kind of sorcery is that?
  #4  
Old 03-06-2019, 10:51 AM
Babale is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,750
That's actually a major issue with the idea of de-extinction. In the original Jurassic Park novels, they coast over this issue -- InGen acquires a company that developed a patent for artificial eggs that they use to grow the dinos -- but reality is far more complex.

For example, crocodiles and turtles determine gender based on the temperature of the eggs, and this process is so sensitive that eggs laid near the edges of the nest turn out one gender while eggs in the middle of the nest are the other. And climate change is messing those outcomes up.

There are other factors to consider. You would die without your microflora -- the unique array of bacteria that live in your gut and and in digestion and other processes. A lab grown tyrannosaur would have no microflora, and neither would a human fetrus growing in an alien womb.
  #5  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:00 AM
nightshadea is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: a condo in hell 10th lvl
Posts: 4,552
if I remember the whole pregnancy was done by a space god type to save Obrien's wife because she was in trouble during an emergency shuttle mission wiki says the doc did it tho
  #6  
Old 03-06-2019, 01:17 PM
bibliophage is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Maine
Posts: 10,573
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
if I remember the whole pregnancy was done by a space god type to save Obrien's wife because she was in trouble during an emergency shuttle mission wiki says the doc did it tho
Not to be a party-pooper or anything, but the real reason was that Nana Visitor got pregnant (with Alexander Siddig's baby) and they had to explain her growing belly somehow.
__________________
Give me a roll of duct tape and a place to stand, and I can fix the world.
  #7  
Old 03-06-2019, 01:22 PM
Beckdawrek's Avatar
Beckdawrek is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: So.Ark ?
Posts: 13,688
I sometimes think I gave birth to 3 aliens. The truth is out there.

Last edited by Beckdawrek; 03-06-2019 at 01:22 PM.
  #8  
Old 03-06-2019, 01:25 PM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 is offline
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 14,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckdawrek View Post
I sometimes think I gave birth to 3 aliens. The truth is out there.
Scully? Is that you?
  #9  
Old 03-06-2019, 03:06 PM
Cleophus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
if I remember the whole pregnancy was done by a space god type to save Obrien's wife because she was in trouble during an emergency shuttle mission wiki says the doc did it tho
Quote:
Originally Posted by bibliophage View Post
Not to be a party-pooper or anything, but the real reason was that Nana Visitor got pregnant (with Alexander Siddig's baby) and they had to explain her growing belly somehow.
So yes, the doc did it.

Anyway, in-universe most humanoids are derived from a panspermia event engineered by ancient aliens thus explaining why seemingly every species can reproduce with the others.

That essentially reduces the question to real-life interspecific pregnancies, which as already indicated, have been lightly experimented with but, as a research field, is still looking for a practical question to answer.
  #10  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:52 PM
Nava is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hey! I'm located! WOOOOW!
Posts: 40,599
Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Searching for "Panda cat womb", I came across this article: Interspecies implantation and mitochondria fate of panda-rabbit cloned embryos.

From it: "The results demonstrated that panda-rabbit cloned embryos can implant in the uterus of a third species, the domestic cat"

What kind of sorcery is that?
People is weird... *goes off in search of new brain, old one exploded*
__________________
Evidence gathered through the use of science is easily dismissed through the use of idiocy. - Czarcasm.
  #11  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:02 AM
Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 24,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleophus View Post
Anyway, in-universe most humanoids are derived from a panspermia event engineered by ancient aliens thus explaining why seemingly every species can reproduce with the others.

That essentially reduces the question to real-life interspecific pregnancies, which as already indicated, have been lightly experimented with but, as a research field, is still looking for a practical question to answer.
And explains why all of the races are just slightly differently colored Humans with odd bits of cartilage in their faces. Like they were designed in some kind of contest where the ancients had really tight requirements on being bipedal humanoids with similar features while allowing only cosmetic changes and a different disposition. The Vulcans/Romulans are about as different as it gets with green blood.
__________________
Tentatively and lightly dipping my toes back in the water.
  #12  
Old 03-07-2019, 09:15 AM
Jonathan Chance is offline
Domo Arigato Mister Moderato
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: On the run with Kilroy
Posts: 22,368
So the outcome here is that it's possible but no one knows if someone has tried it? Is that my takeaway, here?
  #13  
Old 03-07-2019, 10:51 AM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 is offline
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 14,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
So the outcome here is that it's possible but no one knows if someone has tried it? Is that my takeaway, here?
The Wikipedia article I linked to gives a number of examples that have been done successfully, including:
- Bactrian camel carried to term by a dromedary
- Gaur (Asian bovine species) carried to term by a cow
- Deer mice carried to term by white-footed mice
- Goat carried to term by a sheep

The article also gives the panda example which manson1972 noted (panda fetus carried by a domestic cat), though it appears that that was unsuccessful, due to the surrogate mother cat dying from pneumonia during pregnancy.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 03-07-2019 at 10:53 AM.
  #14  
Old 03-07-2019, 10:54 AM
Really Not All That Bright is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 68,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babale View Post
There are other factors to consider. You would die without your microflora -- the unique array of bacteria that live in your gut and and in digestion and other processes. A lab grown tyrannosaur would have no microflora, and neither would a human fetrus growing in an alien womb.
Interesting. So we presumably couldn't grow a human fetus without a womb either, right?
__________________
This can only end in tears.
  #15  
Old 03-07-2019, 01:01 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 58,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babale View Post
There are other factors to consider. You would die without your microflora -- the unique array of bacteria that live in your gut and and in digestion and other processes. A lab grown tyrannosaur would have no microflora, and neither would a human fetrus growing in an alien womb.
I am told that baby elephants acquire the microflora by eating mommy's poop.
  #16  
Old 03-08-2019, 08:30 PM
PoppaSan's Avatar
PoppaSan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: West shore Lake Michigan
Posts: 2,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
Interesting. So we presumably couldn't grow a human fetus without a womb either, right?
What intestinal microflora grows inside the womb? How does it cross the placenta border?
__________________
This place is beginning to feel like a tin foil hat convention.
  #17  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:50 PM
hmoulding is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Scappoose, OR
Posts: 2
Do parasitic organisms count? If an immature form of an animal has to grow to maturity in a host animal, is that host animal pregnant?
__________________
Helge Moulding
mailto:hmoulding@gmail.com
  #18  
Old 03-09-2019, 10:05 PM
Bookkeeper's Avatar
Bookkeeper is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ottawa, Canuckistan
Posts: 2,739
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppaSan View Post
What intestinal microflora grows inside the womb? How does it cross the placenta border?
Probably through fetal ingestion of amniotic fluid.
  #19  
Old 03-10-2019, 03:11 AM
tavaritz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 35
About microflora:

Microflora is not only in guts but all over body. Todays practice on cesarian section is swab the vagina of the mother with clean towel and immediately after the baby is cleaned swab them with the towel. This way the baby gets the same microflora they would have got if the bitrth had been natural.
  #20  
Old 03-10-2019, 03:28 AM
Broomstick's Avatar
Broomstick is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 27,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmoulding View Post
Do parasitic organisms count? If an immature form of an animal has to grow to maturity in a host animal, is that host animal pregnant?
No, because that would raise the possibility of human males being "pregnant" which would make some heads explode. [/sarcasm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookkeeper View Post
Probably through fetal ingestion of amniotic fluid.
Amniotic fluid is fetus's pee.

Actually, that's not strictly true, it's formed from fluid from mom's blood plasma crossing the placenta. And fetus pee.
  #21  
Old 03-10-2019, 04:42 AM
davidm's Avatar
davidm is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Near Philadelphia PA, USA
Posts: 12,257
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/4067933/
Quote:
Pregnancies after in-vitro fertilization of cow follicular oocytes, their incubation in rabbit oviduct and their transfer to the cow uterus.
__________________
Check out my t-shirt designs in Marketplace. https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...php?p=21131885
  #22  
Old 03-10-2019, 06:38 AM
orcenio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NCR
Posts: 2,126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleophus View Post
Anyway, in-universe most humanoids are derived from a panspermia event engineered by ancient aliens thus explaining why seemingly every species can reproduce with the others.
Yup, revealed in the end of ST:TNG's The Chase.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:01 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017