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Old 03-06-2019, 01:04 PM
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Has any mythological creature or phenomina been later proved real


A lot of people believe aliens, crypt-zoological creatures and various paranormal phenomena based on anecdotal evidence that currently are believed to be mythological by the scientific community at large due to lack of evidence . But presumably if one of these things actually existed eventually there will be scientifically verifiable evidence of their existence. Some hunter wouldbag Bigfoot, and sell his body to a university, or a test would be developed that could reproducibly demonstrate psychic powers. At that point the creature of phenomena will no longer be mythical but would generally be accepted as existing.

My question is has that ever actually happened. I'm not talking about a scientific theory that is initially rejected by then later accepted, like plate tectonics. I'm talking about something where a bunch of lay people say I've seen such and such, the scientific community at large scoffs at them saying that those people are loonies, but later the thing is actually proved to exist.
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:16 PM
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The Narwhal, maybe?
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:18 PM
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Giant squid are thought to have inspired tales of sea monsters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_squid
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:24 PM
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Meteorites. For years the scientific consensus was that stones do not fall from the sky.
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:31 PM
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Doesn't ball lightning fall into this category?

"Until the 1960s, most scientists treated reports of ball lightning skeptically, despite numerous accounts from around the world"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning

j
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:35 PM
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Hobbits.
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:39 PM
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Elements of matter. Atoms. Corpuscles of light. The border between mythology and unsupported hypothesis can be fuzzy.
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:54 PM
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According to this site

http://www.animalplanet.com/tv-shows...ut-to-be-real/

Komodo dragons, Platypus, okapi, gorillas, and manatee were all thought not to exist despite reports and in the case of the platypus even after a carcass was was dismissed as a forgery.

I'm not sure that the platypus, okapi and manatee rise to the status status of a mythological creature, but surely dragons and human-like monsters do.

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Old 03-06-2019, 02:21 PM
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Not exactly what you're asking for, but folklorist Adrienne Mayor has argued, pretty convincingly, that the mythological Griffin is based on fossils that were found of early ceratopsians, such as Protoceratops and Psitticasaurus. The "Eagle Beaks" and "Bird-like Talons" are characteristic of those dinosaurs. Imagination filled in the eagle's bodies and wings.


Similarly, the Roc of Arabian folklore (and especially the stories of Sinbad the Sailor), it has been suggested, were inspired by the finding of bones and fossil eggs of the Aepyornis ("Elephant Bird") on Madagascar.


Incidentally, although you'd think that dinosaurs might lie behind accounts of dragons, the story is more complicated than that. There are multiple sources for dragon legends. Where they can reliably be associated with fossils, those fossils are invariably much later ones of giant mammals -- wooly rhinoceros and the like.

Similarly, there are multiple roots for the story of the Cyclops, but one intriguing thread suggests that skulls of elephants , with the large nasal cavity in the front, suggested a giant one-eyed humanoid giant.
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Old 03-06-2019, 02:39 PM
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and in the case of the platypus even after a carcass was was dismissed as a forgery.
You seriously expect me to believe that a beaver with a duck bill that's a mammal but it lays eggs is real? Pfft. Gotta be some kind of long-running hoax.



(or as Robin Williams used to say, it's proof that God does drugs)

As far as natural phenomenon go, rogue waves were thought to be mythical until fairly recently. It's only in the last few decades that they have been taken seriously. Before then, whenever sailors and sea captains would talk about huge waves that they experienced, they were laughed at. Some of the early research (a few decades ago) into rogue waves was actually hampered by that. Sailors and sea captains were so used to being laughed at that they were very reluctant to open up to anyone about their experiences. Even scientists who took the phenomenon seriously were often belittled by other scientists.

These days, you can go onto youtube and see videos of rogue waves slamming into ships. Kinda hard to dismiss that as an old captain's tale.
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Old 03-06-2019, 02:41 PM
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My older sister is a hobbit. She has hair on her feet and is very short. Her ears are weird too.
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Old 03-06-2019, 02:59 PM
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The existence of Troy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy#Schliemann
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:16 PM
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Thanks all! This is all very interesting.

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You seriously expect me to believe that a beaver with a duck bill that's a mammal but it lays eggs is real? Pfft. Gotta be some kind of long-running hoax.


.
They also have venomous spurs on their feet? Yeah right, pull the other one its got a spine on it.
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:25 PM
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I'd actually heard that the Roc legend came from ostriches (real live ones). Adult ostriches look sort of like babies of other bird species, in some ways... but if that's how big the chick is, what must the adult be like?
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:53 PM
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When Tasmania was first explored in the late eighteenth century, explorers reported seeing a strange creature that was part cat, part dog: it had the markings of a tiger and the shape of a wolf. Such reports ere dismissed for years, until a living specimen was finally produced.

Never common to begin with, it was hunted to extinction by 1937. Today, reports of thylacines still living in the bush are common. Such reports have been dismissed as wishful thinking, thus proving what goes around truly does come around.
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Old 03-06-2019, 05:33 PM
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I'd actually heard that the Roc legend came from ostriches (real live ones). Adult ostriches look sort of like babies of other bird species, in some ways... but if that's how big the chick is, what must the adult be like?
There was a science fiction story, by Larry Niven I think, with the premise that ostriches are neotenous rocs. But I hadn't heard that such a correlation was made in real life.
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Old 03-06-2019, 05:47 PM
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There was a science fiction story, by Larry Niven I think, with the premise that ostriches are neotenous rocs. But I hadn't heard that such a correlation was made in real life.
I was going to post this. The story is "Bird in the Hand". It's in the time-travel universe of Svetz. The stories can be found in The Flight of the Horse or more recently Rainbow Mars.
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Old 03-06-2019, 05:47 PM
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The discovery of black swans by Europeans visiting Australia was ironically enough a black swan event... in Europe for centuries "a black swan" was used as a metaphor for something that couldn't exist. Then they turned up in Australia. Surprise!
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Old 03-06-2019, 05:52 PM
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The ancient city of Angkor Wat was considered mythical until it was discovered. The Ceolecanth was thought to be extinct for millions of years before we found a live specimen.

Giant squid are also a good candidate as a real source for apparently mythical sea monsters.
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Old 03-06-2019, 06:16 PM
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Well, the Vu Quang Ox sort of fits. In Cambodia there was a rumour of a gilled antelope or deer, that could breathe underwater. No one could ever produce one, but the rare sightings were frustratingly consistent. It was put down as oral history of a creature that had been gone for generations, and exaggerated in the telling.

The creature was finally found in Vietnam in 1992. It doesn't actually have gills, but it's not an unreasonable interpretation of their appearance.

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Old 03-06-2019, 06:24 PM
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Giant squid are thought to have inspired tales of sea monsters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_squid

Also whale penises, apparently.
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Old 03-06-2019, 06:55 PM
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Not the entirety of the legend, but they have found Jackalopes, or at least rabbits/Hares with papilloma virus caused growths that look a hell of a lot like horns or antlers.
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Old 03-06-2019, 09:18 PM
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Got a cite or any pictures on that one, wolfman? I'd like to see them.
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Old 03-06-2019, 09:42 PM
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Got a cite or any pictures on that one, wolfman? I'd like to see them.

Many examples here. Also can do weird things with humans.
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Old 03-06-2019, 10:15 PM
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It has been speculated that the Native American tradition of the Thunderbird may have been based on the gigantic extinct Teratornis, which may have still been extant when humans colonized North America.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:09 PM
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Tabby patterned cheetahs were thought to be a tall tale until one was spotted strolling around the Kruger National Park.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:46 PM
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Whatever about mythological creatures turning out to be real, we also have cases of real creatures being assumed to be mythological. It's commonly assumed or asserted even today that references in the Hebrew scriptures to leviathans, cockatrices, behemoths, giants and unicorns are references to mythological creatures, but in fact it's likely that they refer to real creatures.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:49 PM
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Giant squid are thought to have inspired tales of sea monsters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_squid
Giant squid aka the Kraken are the closest thing to a actual mythological creature that was found to be real. The Rhinoceros was semi-mythical, Pliny the Elder and perhaps the OT wrote about them, but they were dismissed as mythical.


But yeah, quite a few odd creatures have shown up.

Hobbits are backwards, we had them in literature, then they named small humanoids after them, but it was a very interesting find.
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:00 AM
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It has been speculated that the Native American tradition of the Thunderbird may have been based on the gigantic extinct Teratornis, which may have still been extant when humans colonized North America.
It seems they were perhaps extant at the same time: wiki

Teratornis woodburnensis.[5] The first species to be found north of the La Brea Tar Pits, this partial specimen was discovered at Legion Park, Woodburn, Oregon in 1999. It is known from a humerus, parts of the cranium, beak, sternum, and vertebrae which indicate an estimated wingspan of over 4 meters (14 ft).[6] The find dates to the late Pleistocene, about 12,000 years ago, in a stratum containing the remains of megafauna such as mammoth, mastodon, and ground sloths, as well as evidence of early human occupancy at the site.[5]

And now Humans are dated back to 13000 years ago, with the Teratorns becoming extinct maybe only 10000 years ago, there seems to have been a overlap. No solid proof however, but I like your guess.
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Old 03-07-2019, 03:17 AM
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Thanks all! This is all very interesting.



They also have venomous spurs on their feet? Yeah right, pull the other one its got a spine on it.
Only on the boys though
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:15 AM
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Whatever about mythological creatures turning out to be real, we also have cases of real creatures being assumed to be mythological. It's commonly assumed or asserted even today that references in the Hebrew scriptures to leviathans, cockatrices, behemoths, giants and unicorns are references to mythological creatures, but in fact it's likely that they refer to real creatures.
One of the more interesting books I've read is T. H. White's The Bestiary. It's a translation and commentary on a medieval bestiary by the author of the sword in the Stone, The Once and Future King, and The Book of Merlin, who had a knowledge and reverence for things medieval.

as he points out, the Bestiary was not supposed to be a book of fantastic and mythological animals, but an actual attempt to present a listing of animals, including unfamiliar ones from far away. It wasn't the author's fault that he was copying things at umpteenth hand, or that the illustrator had never seen an Ostrich before (and so drew an eagle with camel feet, as described in the text) or hadn't seen a crocodile before, and simply gave his best guess.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/39406565462131503/

In any event, many of the beasts, on c,lose examination, appear as if they might be real creatures, although the description might seem far removed by the time the Bestiarist wrote them down.

Thus the basilisk, the King of Reptiles (as the name indicates), which kills with the ryes, might actually be the King Cobra (which we still call a "King"), which can spit venom in your eye, leading to death.

White makes a good argument for the Amphisbaena, a retile with a head at each end, being a real creature, if somewhat mis-described.

and the case of the Unicorn is interesting. Most descriptions can be traced back to Ctesias' ancient greek description of a one-horned Indian beast that is certainly the Indian rhinoceros. It should be observed that the Bestiary also describes another one-horned creature, also depicted with a single horn, the Monoceros. And there are extra wrinlkles to the Unicorn story, as well. You have to read Odell Shepard's the Lore of the Unicorn and Willy ley's the Unicorn, the Lungfish, and the Dodo to get the full story.

Draco, the Dragon, it should be pointed out, is basically a big snake, of which there are plenty in the world. A full history of the Dragon in world history has yet to be written, but there are a LOT of roots to its story, as well, including Hebrew sources, Banylonian ones, the entire Chinese tradition, and the "Jenny Haniver"
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:00 AM
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The notion of sudden and catastrophic changes to the planet was dismissed as rubbish by early geologists. Change over time was the holy mantra for a long time. So in the 1920s, when J. Harlen Bretz hypothesized that the landscape in eastern Washington/Oregon was caused by sudden and catastrophic floods, he was considered a crackpot and discredited by his peers.

As it turns out, of course, he was absolutely right about Glacial Lake Missoula and the geologic carving that its floods caused.

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Old 03-07-2019, 09:04 AM
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Thus the basilisk, the King of Reptiles (as the name indicates), which kills with the ryes
Hopefully fermented ones, rather than ergotic ones.
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Old 03-07-2019, 01:20 PM
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building on chefguy's post.. with the discovery and dating of Gobekli Tepi, the existence of a technologically advanced, astronomically literate society has been confirmed as of 12,000 years before present.

Robert Schoch and John Anthony West on re-dating Egypt in general, and the Sphinx in specific.

Randall Carlson on astronomical catastrophes. Carlson relies on Bretz for the basis of his work.

The importance of the Chicxulub crater was laughed at until modern geologists proved it is the cause of the K-T extinction event.

In general, the idea that cosmic events are responsible for global scale catastrophes has been brushed away by consensus science for 100 years, but little by little, that resistance is being broken.

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Old 03-07-2019, 01:44 PM
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Giant squid are thought to have inspired tales of sea monsters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_squid
Sea "serpents" are thought to have been inspired by sightings of oarfish.
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Old 03-07-2019, 02:00 PM
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building on chefguy's post.. with the discovery and dating of Gobekli Tepi, the existence of a technologically advanced, astronomically literate society has been confirmed as of 12,000 years before present.

Robert Schoch and John Anthony West on re-dating Egypt in general, and the Sphinx in specific.

Randall Carlson on astronomical catastrophes. Carlson relies on Bretz for the basis of his work.

The importance of the Chicxulub crater was laughed at until modern geologists proved it is the cause of the K-T extinction event.

In general, the idea that cosmic events are responsible for global scale catastrophes has been brushed away by consensus science for 100 years, but little by little, that resistance is being broken.
Most of these are really really fringe theories, to put it mildly. To say that they've been "proven real" is just ... false.

The Chicxulub crater was not "laughed at" -- it was unknown to almost everyone except the Pemex geologists who found it and were forbidden by their employer to publish the data. Almost as soon as the crater's existence became widely known, its importance was recognized by geologists.
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Old 03-07-2019, 03:05 PM
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It has been speculated that the Native American tradition of the Thunderbird may have been based on the gigantic extinct Teratornis, which may have still been extant when humans colonized North America.
I don't believe for an instant that an oral tradition could be passed on in any recognizable form for 10 000 + years.

There's no need for an actual giant bird to have existed for a story about one to appear. This possibility is so likely that the vast number of completely made up stories about huge birds would drown any story "based on actual events" that could have survived for thousands of years.

And if it was somehow demonstrated (say, by a time travelling folklorist) that a tale/myth currently being told is descended directly from an original story about an actual giant bird, it would have undergone so many changes over such a long time that it would be as likely now to talk about a red clad girl bringing butter to her grandmother than still about a giant bird, long ago replaced in the story by a more familiar wolf.


The tendency to try to find a real world basis lost in a remote past for myths and tales is completely misguided in my opinion.
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Old 03-07-2019, 03:18 PM
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Robert Schoch and John Anthony West on re-dating Egypt in general, and the Sphinx in specific.
Yeah, not so much. Shoch based his argument on dating the sphynx by assuming that it was subject to water erosion, and that couldn't have happened unless it was very old. Unfortunately for him, the weathering of the Sphynx can also be explained through salt exfoliation, which doesn't require it to be older.

At least Shoch is a real scientist. His work was then used by cranks like Graham Hancock to date the sphynx and the great pyramid to 12,500 years ago, because that's the number he needed to make his 'Orion' theory work. It's all motivated reasoning and garbage science.

If you want to think scientifically, you have to judge Shoch's evidence/supposition against pretty much everything we know about ancient prehistory. The vast weight of evidence is on that side, and Shoch's work is a serious outlier that has conventional explanations for the problem he was trying to solve.

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Randall Carlson on astronomical catastrophes. Carlson relies on Bretz for the basis of his work.
From Carlson's web site:
Quote:
Randall Carlson is a master builder and architectural designer, teacher, geometrician, geomythologist, geological explorer and renegade scholar. He has 4 decades of study, research and exploration Into the interface between ancient mysteries and modern science, has been an active Freemason for 30 years and is Past Master of one of the oldest and largest Masonic lodges in Georgia.
Stellar credentials for a scientist. He also describes himself as a 'geomancer' and a student of 'sacred geometry', whatever that is. He seems to heavily quote Graham Hancock and other nuts. Hard pass on anything he has to say.

Quote:
The importance of the Chicxulub crater was laughed at until modern geologists proved it is the cause of the K-T extinction event.

In general, the idea that cosmic events are responsible for global scale catastrophes has been brushed away by consensus science for 100 years, but little by little, that resistance is being broken.
I call this the 'Star Trek technique' for giving crackpot theory the imprimatur of reasonableness and normalcy by associating it with other reasonable things.

On Star Trek it went like this: "Consider the great philosophers in history: Plato, Aristotle, Kant, and Blebur of Tharsus IV."

In your arena, it's, "The world is shaped by cataclysmic events, such as the Chicxulub crater, the eruption of Vesuvius, and the great comet that destroyed all traces of ancient civilizations."
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Old 03-07-2019, 03:26 PM
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Yeah, not so much. Shoch based his argument on dating the sphynx by assuming that it was subject to water erosion, and that couldn't have happened unless it was very old. Unfortunately for him, the weathering of the Sphynx can also be explained through salt exfoliation, which doesn't require it to be older.

At least Shoch is a real scientist. His work was then used by cranks like Graham Hancock to date the sphynx and the great pyramid to 12,500 years ago, because that's the number he needed to make his 'Orion' theory work. It's all motivated reasoning and garbage science.

If you want to think scientifically, you have to judge Shoch's evidence/supposition against pretty much everything we know about ancient prehistory. The vast weight of evidence is on that side, and Shoch's work is a serious outlier that has conventional explanations for the problem he was trying to solve.


"
I have heard Egyptologist agree that perhaps the Sphinx we know was based upon a earlier work, since apparently the stone kinda sorta looked like a lion or something before being carved on, and added to. There are quite a few dissenting hypotheses about the age of the Great Sphinx.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...ing_hypotheses
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Old 03-07-2019, 04:38 PM
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I have heard Egyptologist agree that perhaps the Sphinx we know was based upon a earlier work, since apparently the stone kinda sorta looked like a lion or something before being carved on, and added to. There are quite a few dissenting hypotheses about the age of the Great Sphinx.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...ing_hypotheses
It could well be an earlier work, but real scientists taking that point of view are using 'earlier' to mean anywhere from 20 years to maybe a few hundred years earlier. The nuts like Hancock are claiming that the Sphinx is eight thousand years older, which would put it in the Mesolithic era. The known cultures of the time were stone-aged hunter gatherers or sedentary fisherman types, and we've never found anything suggesting they were capable of building something like the Sphynx. or any indication that they were builders of megastructures. The Sphinx is already the oldest known megastructure in Egypt.
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Old 03-07-2019, 05:04 PM
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I don't believe for an instant that an oral tradition could be passed on in any recognizable form for 10 000 + years.
I'd be inclined to agree for a myth based on nothing but even after these giant birds disappeared the Thunderbird legend could have been reinforced with sightings of Condors or other large birds. Even if Teratonis was never seen by humans the entire legend could be have started 10,000+ years ago because of periodic sightings of large extant birds going that far back.
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Old 03-07-2019, 05:48 PM
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I'd be inclined to agree for a myth based on nothing but even after these giant birds disappeared the Thunderbird legend could have been reinforced with sightings of Condors or other large birds. Even if Teratonis was never seen by humans the entire legend could be have started 10,000+ years ago because of periodic sightings of large extant birds going that far back.
And it could have started with sights of condors alone, 9000 years ago. And again 8960 years ago. And again 8930 years ago. And from someone just making up a story about an absurdly huge bird 8880 years ago. And again. And again. And 8860 years ago by someone seeing a skeleton, as you say. And again. And again.

Imagining a giant animal (or an animal with golden feathers, or with an entrancing song, etc..) isn't in any way extraordinary, not even remarkable. It doesn't require an explanation. And as I wrote, even if such a story had been passed on after the disappearance of the bird (and it certainly did at least for a while), it would have been drowned by the thousands of instance where someone just made up a story about a giant bird over the course of thousands of years. And mixed up with other stories including, or not including, giant something.

There's no reason to assume that what stuck was the "true story", or even that there's any conceivable way to determine what specific original story is the "ancestor" of the current tale/myth in the mass of stories that intertwined over the course of ages to eventually form the most recent version. And for all you know, this most recent version could in fact have been made up merely 400 years ago. Myths aren't necessarily terribly old. And they change. 12 000 years is a really, really, long time.
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Last edited by clairobscur; 03-07-2019 at 05:52 PM.
  #43  
Old 03-07-2019, 06:00 PM
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It could well be an earlier work, but real scientists taking that point of view are using 'earlier' to mean anywhere from 20 years to maybe a few hundred years earlier. The nuts like Hancock are claiming that the Sphinx is eight thousand years older, which would put it in the Mesolithic era. The known cultures of the time were stone-aged hunter gatherers or sedentary fisherman types, and we've never found anything suggesting they were capable of building something like the Sphynx. or any indication that they were builders of megastructures. The Sphinx is already the oldest known megastructure in Egypt.

Göbekli Tepe dated back to 7560- 8800 BC as early as the Epipalaeolithic. Which is 10000 years ago. So, yes, they are capable of building something like the Sphinx or other megastructures.

Not that I think the actual Sphinx was built back then, but as a unusual vaguely lion shaped rock it could have been some sort of center of worship.
The English Egyptologist E. A. Wallis Budge said "it is probable that it is a very great deal older than his (Khafre) reign and that it dates from the end of the archaic period c. 2686 BC."

I am willing to accept that as reasonably possible, but yes, it only pushes it back hundreds of years.
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:04 PM
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Not quite what the OP asked, but lots of people had noticed how well the west coast of Africa fit into the east coast of South America. But the suggestion that there had once been a super continent was dismissed as fantasy. Until it wasn't. I remember reading somewhere that any geologist who thought before 1950 that continents could move was utterly discredited. By 1960, any geologist who didn't believe continents could move was discredited. Of course, this isn't an ancient myth since it required a decent geography of the whole world to see it.
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:26 PM
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I've read (sadly can't remember where) that the Goblin Shark was for centuries just a legend in Japan. Then, came deep sea probes and submarines and routine reports of the terrifying things. Protrusible jaws! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goblin_shark
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:32 PM
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Well, the Vu Quang Ox sort of fits. In Cambodia there was a rumour of a gilled antelope or deer, that could breathe underwater. No one could ever produce one, but the rare sightings were frustratingly consistent. It was put down as oral history of a creature that had been gone for generations, and exaggerated in the telling.

The creature was finally found in Vietnam in 1992. It doesn't actually have gills, but it's not an unreasonable interpretation of their appearance.
Another Vietnamese one: the giant turtle of lake Hoan Kiem. Sadly, now probably extinct.
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:33 PM
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When Tasmania was first explored in the late eighteenth century, explorers reported seeing a strange creature that was part cat, part dog: it had the markings of a tiger and the shape of a wolf. Such reports ere dismissed for years, until a living specimen was finally produced.

Never common to begin with, it was hunted to extinction by 1937. Today, reports of thylacines still living in the bush are common. Such reports have been dismissed as wishful thinking, thus proving what goes around truly does come around.
There used to be a tourist trap/roadside attraction in Sheffield Tasmania called "The Tiger's Tale" that featured an audio-animatronic tiger. Sadly, it too is now extinct.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:18 PM
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I don't believe for an instant that an oral tradition could be passed on in any recognizable form for 10 000 + years.

There's no need for an actual giant bird to have existed for a story about one to appear. This possibility is so likely that the vast number of completely made up stories about huge birds would drown any story "based on actual events" that could have survived for thousands of years.

And if it was somehow demonstrated (say, by a time travelling folklorist) that a tale/myth currently being told is descended directly from an original story about an actual giant bird, it would have undergone so many changes over such a long time that it would be as likely now to talk about a red clad girl bringing butter to her grandmother than still about a giant bird, long ago replaced in the story by a more familiar wolf.


The tendency to try to find a real world basis lost in a remote past for myths and tales is completely misguided in my opinion.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...2Z9mVWSdp5iI_9


There's more to it than you assume.
Page 86+ is particularly interesting .

You'll see that these myths are categorized, and some more credible than others.

While some are obviously mis- interpreted fossil finds others can correlate to fossil evidence and show accurate knowledge of what the living creatures looked like.

I found the Lakota having words for the three toed horse, wooly rhino and a few other pleistocene mammals despite having no stories connected to them very interesting.

Many have mammoth legends.

Certain traditions seem to indicate an animal being very common and possibly part of everyday life for ancestors.

While creatures in oral tradition that are modified versions of animals still present are easy to dismiss ( like the giant beaver stories)
Tales, or lingering words referring to extinct creatures not resembling any on the landscape are telling.

Although I would call it more of a case of lingering imagery, since every 1000-1500 years any given language has usually changed so much as to be unrecognizable.

A horse with three toes, or a giant quadraped with long horns, round footprints, big ears and a long nose in North America seem awfully coincidental, especially when linked with big fossil deposits. Hard to make those assumptions from the fossils, but fairly easy for memory to last when associated with a location like that.

All in all, hard to say, but hard to refute as well.
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Old 03-08-2019, 01:33 AM
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...2Z9mVWSdp5iI_9


A horse with three toes, or a giant quadraped with long horns, round footprints, big ears and a long nose in North America seem awfully coincidental, especially when linked with big fossil deposits. Hard to make those assumptions from the fossils, but fairly easy for memory to last when associated with a location like that.

All in all, hard to say, but hard to refute as well.


I don't find these kind of examples very convincing. It's a bit like with Nostradamus prophecies : look into it long enough, and among all the legends and description of monsters and legendary creatures, you'll find some whose description could match that of ancient species (or ancient events, etc...)

You say "hard to refute" but I would argue that for such extreme lengths of time the claim is plainly outlandish and doesn't require refutation until its proponents bring serious evidences in its support.

As far as I know, this isn't mainstream science, and this kind of claims aren't taken seriously, generally speaking, by folklorists, linguists, etc...Even though I've read, over the years, some debunking of similar claims, I'm not knowledgeable on this topic and couldn't demonstrate it. There is, however, a folklorist posting on this board, but his name escapes me. If someone remembers it, it could be a good idea to ask him to chime in on this topic.
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Old 03-08-2019, 02:50 AM
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I don't believe for an instant that an oral tradition could be passed on in any recognizable form for 10 000 + years.
Ancient Sea Rise Tale Told Accurately for 10,000 Years
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