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Old 03-11-2019, 12:09 PM
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Jews, Christians and Animal Sacrifice.


Why don't Jews and Christians practice animal sacrifice?

It is mentioned in the Bible. Well the Old Testament at least. And I think Muslims practice it.

Plus Jews and Christians do eat meat by and large, which is worth pointing out.

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Old 03-11-2019, 12:15 PM
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I believe that sacrifices had to be made at the Temple, which was destroyed.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:35 PM
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The Jewish answer is that once the Temple was built, no other place was allowed to be used for sacrificial service, forever. The source for this is Deuteronomy 12:8-14

Quote:
8 You are not to do as we do here today, everyone doing as they see fit, 9 since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the Lord your God is giving you. 10 But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, and he will give you rest from all your enemies around you so that you will live in safety. 11 Then to the place the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the Lord. 12 And there rejoice before the Lord your God—you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levites from your towns who have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 13 Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. 14 Offer them only at the place the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.
The "inheritance" in verse 9 refers to the Jerusalem temple site.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:58 PM
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The Christian answer (at least how I was taught) is that JC's self-sacrifice ("lamb of God") obviated the need for future animal sacrifices.

(Of course, the whole "I sent me to sacrifice to me to save you from me" is a whole other problem...)
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Old 03-11-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Marvin the Martian View Post
The Christian answer (at least how I was taught) is that JC's self-sacrifice ("lamb of God") obviated the need for future animal sacrifices.
Yup, this is the answer as I was taught, as well.
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Old 03-11-2019, 01:52 PM
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The Jewish answer is that we need the temple rebuilt to have animal sacrifices:

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So the short answer to your question is that we can no longer bring Sacrifices because the Torah forbids us to bring any Sacrifices outside of the Holy Temple. Since we have no Holy Temple, and it is impossible for us to rebuild it at this time, we keep praying to Hashem that we should be able to rebuild it soon in peace, and once again be able to bring the Praise and Thanksgiving Sacrifices once again.
http://www.beingjewish.com/unchanged/sacrifices.html
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:06 PM
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The Jewish answer is that we need the temple rebuilt to have animal sacrifices:



http://www.beingjewish.com/unchanged/sacrifices.html
And an orthodox Israeli once told me that only a priest (not a rabbi) can consecrate a temple, but no priest can be created for want of a temple.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:11 PM
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And an orthodox Israeli once told me that only a priest (not a rabbi) can consecrate a temple, but no priest can be created for want of a temple.
I'm as Gentile as they come, but I'm not entirely sure if that's true (then again, it's also possible that there isn't agreement on the subject within the Jewish faith). A few Jewish sites I'm looking at speak of kohanim (priests) in the present tense. This site says, "After the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim diminished significantly in favor of the rabbis; however, we continue to keep track of kohein lineage."

Other cites: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...ewish-priests/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen#Modern_application

Last edited by kenobi 65; 03-11-2019 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:23 PM
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Hari Seldon:

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And an orthodox Israeli once told me that only a priest (not a rabbi) can consecrate a temple, but no priest can be created for want of a temple.
This is not true. Priests don't need to be "created", any male-line descendant of Aaron is one by birth, and there are plenty of Jews who identify as such. In theory, sacrificial service could resume as soon as a) it is 100% certain the exact spot upon which the Temple altar had stood, and b) it can be done without loss of human life (e.g., Arabs rioting), as that is not one of the commandments that the Torah requires risking one's life for.

The HIGH priest would need consecration, but the Temple sacrificial service could be (mostly) performed even if that office was not filled. Not performing the parts that the High Priest performs does not invalidate the other parts of the service.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:40 PM
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Practical guess - as money became more prevalent, the meat wasn't as necessary to support the priestly caste and the pressure to supply it dropped. If I remember correctly, it wasn't the entire animal that was burned, but only representative parts.

It's been awhile, so I could have misread it.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:42 PM
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Although it's not mentioned in the Wikipedia article, there were animal sacrifices at the Jewish Temple at Elephantine.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:10 PM
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Hmmm, so PETA should be opposed to rebuilding the Temple...
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
Why don't Jews and Christians practice animal sacrifice?

It is mentioned in the Bible. Well the Old Testament at least. And I think Muslims practice it.
I think Muslims would dispute that.

Muslims practice religious butchery, that is, no animal can be consumed without being properly killed according to Muslim religious requirements, but that is not the same as animal sacrifice.

But any Muslims who wants to correct me on that feel free to do so, as I am no expert.

Likewise, kosher-keeping Jews also practice religious butchery. But, again, most people don't view that as animal sacrifice.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Quoth cmkeller:

This is not true. Priests don't need to be "created", any male-line descendant of Aaron is one by birth, and there are plenty of Jews who identify as such.
Nor are we restricted to self-identification. The common surname "Cohen" (and its linguistic variants) denotes such a man. And male-line descent can also be identified via Y chromosome DNA testing, so we know that Cohens really are the male-line descendants of the same individual (with a surprisingly low rate of non-paternity events).

If someone bears the name "Cohen" or one of its variants, and has Y haplogroup J-P58, you can be extremely confident that that man is in fact of the priestly lineage.

There are other obstacles to consecrating a new Temple (like needing a flawless red calf), but all of the rest of them are insignificant compared to the fact that the Dome of the Rock is on the same site.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:36 PM
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Why do Jews no longer sacrifice animals?
Straight Dope Staff Report by Dex
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:41 PM
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Chronos:

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The common surname "Cohen" (and its linguistic variants) denotes such a man.
A good rule of thumb, but not 100% reliable. My primary Rabbi was named Cohen but was not a descendant-of-Aaron Cohen. The name Katz is similar in this regard.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:53 PM
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I expect that he inherited the name via a known non-paternity event, from someone who was a descendant of Aaron?

In any event, that's why I said combined with the Y haplogroup.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:02 PM
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... (with a surprisingly low rate of non-paternity events).

...
I've heard them also referred to as "pedigree errors".
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:30 PM
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Chronos:

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I expect that he inherited the name via a known non-paternity event, from someone who was a descendant of Aaron?
I never asked. Could be, or could have been some sort of "Ellis Island" name mixup.
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
I'm as Gentile as they come, but I'm not entirely sure if that's true (then again, it's also possible that there isn't agreement on the subject within the Jewish faith). A few Jewish sites I'm looking at speak of kohanim (priests) in the present tense. This site says, "After the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim diminished significantly in favor of the rabbis; however, we continue to keep track of kohein lineage."

Other cites: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...ewish-priests/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen#Modern_application
Today, especially in an Orthodox service, the kohanim still perform some exclusive duties during various services often on behalf of the congregation. Basically, these are simply blessings. (Nothing flashy like sacrifices. )
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
Why don't Jews and Christians practice animal sacrifice?

It is mentioned in the Bible. Well the Old Testament at least. And I think Muslims practice it.

Plus Jews and Christians do eat meat by and large, which is worth pointing out.


Well, a certain kind of Jew, Samaritans*, still practice animal sacrifice. Eating meat does not equal sacrifice as the sacrificial critter was put to a special use beyond just slaughtering it.

*Yes, I know Judaism doesn't accept them as Jews, but the Samaritans consider their religion the true religion of old Israel.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:33 AM
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The Samaritans are a Jewish heresy. They, of course, consider all the other Jews to be heretical. (They believe the people who were carted off to Babylon made some mistakes upon their return to Israel.) They hold that a different location is the correct site for sacrifices, and they still offer sacrifices there.

There's some Evangelical Christian group that was trying to breed a perfect red calf to allow the Jews to make sacrifices again. They probably succeeded. As someone said up thread, the real problem is that the dome of the rock covers the site where the temple could be rebuilt.

Last edited by puzzlegal; 03-12-2019 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:54 AM
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The Samaritans are a Jewish heresy. They, of course, consider all the other Jews to be heretical.

I hear some of them are OK though. Well, at least one.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:51 AM
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I hear some of them are OK though. Well, at least one.
The Parable of the OK Samaritan.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:08 PM
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This article does cite actual animal sacrifice by Muslims, btw. "The Feast of Sacrifice (Idu-l-adha)"
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Old 03-12-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Yllaria View Post
Practical guess - as money became more prevalent, the meat wasn't as necessary to support the priestly caste and the pressure to supply it dropped. If I remember correctly, it wasn't the entire animal that was burned, but only representative parts.

It's been awhile, so I could have misread it.
Nope, since it stopped as soon as the second Temple was destroyed by the Romans.
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Old 03-12-2019, 01:42 PM
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Yllaria:

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If I remember correctly, it wasn't the entire animal that was burned, but only representative parts.
Depended on the type of sacrifice. Burnt offerings (olah in Hebrew) and certain types of communal atonement sacrifices were burnt in their entirety. Other types of sacrifices were, as you described, had specified parts burnt on the altar, and the rest was for human beings to eat.
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:15 PM
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And the original meaning of the word "holocaust" was a sacrifice which was burnt in its entirety.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:52 AM
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If someone bears the name "Cohen" or one of its variants, and has Y haplogroup J-P58, you can be extremely confident that that man is in fact of the priestly lineage.
"One of its variants"? You mean Al-Kuhen, Caen, Cahan, Cahen, Cahn, Cahon, Cahona, Cain, Choen, Coen, Cofen, Coffen, Cohan, Cohane, Cohen, Cohn, Cohne, Cone, Conn, Coon, Cowan, Cowen, El-Kohen, Kagan, Kaganovich, Kahana, Kahane, Kahano, Kahanow, Kahansky, Kahin, Kahn, Kan, Kaplan, Katz, Kogan, Koganovitch, Kogen, Kogon, Kohenteb, Kohentov, Kohn, Kohne, Kohner, Kohnowsky, Kohányi, Koihen, Kon, Konstamm, Koon, Kouihen, or Xohen ?

Here's the clading tree for J-P58; as you can see the P58 mrca was 6500 BC or so. Most of J1 lies in the P58 clade. A very large portion of Cohens fall in the Y3088 subclade of P58, about ⅛ of the way down the above page. It's mrca is 900 BC ±500, about what might be expected for an ancient Israeli priest progenitor.

As shown here there are other haplogroups associated with the Cohen surname. (This page might be the easiest Google hit for Cohen Y-haplogroups, but doesn't show well the large cluster at Y3088/Z18271.)
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Old 03-13-2019, 05:16 AM
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Hari Seldon:



This is not true. Priests don't need to be "created", any male-line descendant of Aaron is one by birth, and there are plenty of Jews who identify as such. In theory, sacrificial service could resume as soon as a) it is 100% certain the exact spot upon which the Temple altar had stood, and b) it can be done without loss of human life (e.g., Arabs rioting), as that is not one of the commandments that the Torah requires risking one's life for.

The HIGH priest would need consecration, but the Temple sacrificial service could be (mostly) performed even if that office was not filled. Not performing the parts that the High Priest performs does not invalidate the other parts of the service.
So how does one go about consecrating a High Priest, then?
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:52 AM
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So how does one go about consecrating a High Priest, then?
According to Exodus, the high priest is consecrated by ritual washing, being dressed in the priestly clothing of his predecessor, then being anointed with olive oil along with his instruments, and then seven days of ritual sacrifice of animals. Then the priest is anointed with the blood of the final sacrifice.
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