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  #51  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The idea that a governor can send out goons to capture legislators is All-Cool-Democracy,but resisting said goons is not to be applauded is a bit backwards for me.* That said, I’d rather these idiots squabble like this than join together to bilk the hapless taxpayer. I wonder what the response would be if say the governor of Alabama send out his goons to round up Dem legislators for a vote on abortion.


*yes I understand it is in the law to allow governor goon squads. Believe it or not people disagree with old laws allowing goon squads sometimes.
You left off a bit in the bolded part: "with threats of deadly violence". Your phrase should be "but resisting said goons with threats of deadly violence is not to be applauded is a bit backwards for me", although I'm curious when duly-appointed law enforcement officers carrying out their lawful duty turned into "goons", exactly? What happened to "just do what they say and sort it all out in court"? Isn't that the GOP-preffered strategy that they tell others to use when dealing with disagreeable police officers? If not, what other people would you encourage to resist the police with deadly violence?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 06-26-2019 at 08:55 AM.
  #52  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
What about when governors threaten to kidnap legislators?
I wasn't aware that law enforcement doing things they were empowered to do was "kidnapping"; do you have a cite? I mean, think of all the people that police have "arrested" over the years; those people were actually being kidnapped!

  #53  
Old 06-26-2019, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
You left off a bit in the bolded part: "with threats of deadly violence". Your phrase should be "but resisting said goons with threats of deadly violence is not to be applauded is a bit backwards for me", although I'm curious when duly-appointed law enforcement officers carrying out their lawful duty turned into "goons", exactly? What happened to "just do what they say and sort it all out in court"? Isn't that the GOP-preffered strategy that they tell others to use when dealing with disagreeable police officers? If not, what other people would you encourage to resist the police with deadly violence?
Coppers have been goons for some time. When they behave like goons, they’re goons. Nothing magical about a title. I don’t know or care what the GOP strategy is. I don’t encourage anyone to tangle with the state and martyr themselves, but I acknowledge their right to resist, even if it is not advisable.

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I wasn't aware that law enforcement doing things they were empowered to do was "kidnapping"; do you have a cite? I mean, think of all the people that police have "arrested" over the years; those people were actually being kidnapped!

Yes.
  #54  
Old 06-26-2019, 10:48 AM
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Credible threats against law enforcement officers need to be prosecuted, no matter who makes them.

This 1840s incident might be of interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorr_Rebellion
  #55  
Old 06-26-2019, 04:26 PM
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Credible threats against law enforcement officers need to be prosecuted, no matter who makes them.

This 1840s incident might be of interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorr_Rebellion
Dorr and his followers actually had a point: under the old system only "the propertied" (land owners) could vote; therefore the elected government represented landowners and others were neglected. The main point is that the system would never have spontaneously reformed because the legislature had no institutional incentive to change. Dorr and his followers had as strong a case as the revolutionaries back in 1776 had. In any event, the Dorr Rebellion was technically a failure: the Dorrites disbanded rather than attempt to fight a bloody revolution, and Dorr first fled the state and later was convicted and imprisoned. But it did have the effect of convincing the state government that reform was needed to prevent a resurgence, and the state constitution was changed to broaden the voting franchise.
  #56  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:40 PM
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They didn't "cave"; they didn't have the votes.

I hope they reintroduce the bill the moment the GOP comes back. Make them do it again, and again. Force them to shut down services. See how long everyone else in the state tolerates it -- not long, I'd imagine.
The 2019 session will be over at the end of this month. The state constitution sets limits on how long they can be in session--160 days in odd numbered years and 35 in even numbered years. So nobody will be in the legislature until about February next year and they'll be gone again in March of '20 until January '21. So there's no practical way to treat these shitbirds like the children refusing to eat their dinners they so closely resemble. Most of them will be up for reelection next year so there's that I guess.
  #57  
Old 06-27-2019, 10:55 AM
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This is impacting Reddit. https://www.newsweek.com/reddit-dona...-drama-1446104
Quote:
On Wednesday, Reddit quarantined the pro-Trump subreddit The_Donald, citing threats against the lives of politicians and police. In Reddit parlance, a quarantine isn't an outright ban, but instead the institution of a warning before entering The_Donald subreddit.

"Recent behaviors including threats against the police and public figures is content that is prohibited by our violence policy," a Reddit spokesperson said in a statement released to The Daily Beast. "As a result, we have actioned individual users and quarantined the subreddit."
Quote:
Long known as a hotbed of racist, misogynistic, islamophobic and antisemitic online discourse, Reddit found The_Donald community crossed a line with repeated calls for violence against state officials in Oregon.
Quote:
Comments on The_Donald endorsing terrorist violence against lawmakers—including Governor Kate Brown—and/or a full-scaled uprising found wide support in the community. "None of this gets fixed without people picking up rifles," one comment with 49 upvotes read. Another called for Portland and Eugene to be burnt to the ground, though far more common was the invocation of the Second Amendment, with gun violence, including "Vietcong style ambush" brought against fellow Oregonians described as "anti-American traitors" and "globalists." Media Matters archived dozens of similar comments from the subreddit.
Quote:
Reddit's administrators have asked The_Donald mods to "unambiguously communicate to your subscribers that violent content is unacceptable," among a list of other reforms, after which Reddit will consider an appeal on the quarantine.

A moderator of The_Donald rebuffed the calls for reform, describing the quarantine as an attempt "to kill us before the 2020 election."
  #58  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:23 AM
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Does the Oregon constitution allow for the legislative session to be ended early but then re-started before the end of the year? So the total number of days in session would still be within the limits, but they're not all contiguous? It seems to me like that would be the best solution: Close the legislature now, but then re-open it as soon as they can drag some of the spoiled children back.
  #59  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:05 PM
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I think you might have to have a quorum to do that and, well...
  #60  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:22 PM
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I think that when people mention a "second civil war" this is the kind of shit they're referring to: white Christian nationalists in various corners of fly-over country engaging in judicial nullification and insurrection. The Bundy Clan episode was our warning, and it's escalating into a kind of neo-confederate movement. And as much as I wish I could be optimistic about the whole thing, I'm not. Today's Republican party has the same mentality to politics that Southern Democrats had in the 1870s, and that was a pretty nasty period in American history.
  #61  
Old 06-27-2019, 05:45 PM
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It isn't getting better and many are urging the GOP to continue to obstruct.
Quote:
But Republicans — who have left the state to avoid taking a vote — say their walkout is worth it despite the governor sending state police to round them up and getting fined $500 a day. The protesters at the Capitol agreed.

“They are doing exactly what we want them to do,” said Tkeisha Wydro of McMinnville, northwest of Salem. “The senators who walked out have incredible integrity and have the full support of rural Oregonians.”
Democracy is losing because the side that favors democracy is weak. Not smaller, just weak.
  #62  
Old 06-27-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
It isn't getting better and many are urging the GOP to continue to obstruct.Democracy is losing because the side that favors democracy is weak. Not smaller, just weak.
When Democrats did the same sort of thing in Wisconsin, did you consider them to be on the side opposing democracy?
  #63  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:02 PM
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When Democrats did the same sort of thing in Wisconsin, did you consider them to be on the side opposing democracy?
Well, gosh, I must've missed it--could you point out the place in that story where the Democrats in question threatened to shoot state troopers if they were sent to bring them back for the vote and where they encouraged insane white supremacist terrorist groups to engage in threatening behavior on their behalf? I'm sure it's just a failure of reading comprehension on my part because of course you couldn't be disingenuously conflating the dissimilar situations as though they shared common elements beyond obstructing a vote in legislature. Heavens forfend.
  #64  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:44 PM
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It isn't getting better and many are urging the GOP to continue to obstruct.Democracy is losing because the side that favors democracy is weak. Not smaller, just weak.
I think the majority just assumes they'll eventually go away and won't do any real harm. They're wrong. There will be real harm because people like this keep pushing to see what they can get away with. Not necessarily the same people, but people of a like mind.
  #65  
Old 06-28-2019, 05:55 PM
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The GOP says they'll come back and do their jobs.
Quote:
Republicans in the Oregon Senate said Friday that they will end a more than weeklong walkout over emissions-lowering climate legislation that ground the Legislature to a halt, declaring victory in the political crisis that exposed the limits of overwhelming Democratic control in Oregon.

The 11 Republicans fled the state for nine days to deny Democrats the numbers needed to vote on a proposal that would be the second in the nation to cap and trade pollution credits among companies.
Quote:
Senate Minority Leader Herman Baertschiger told reporters that Republicans will return Saturday to vote on dozens of budget and policy bills before the legislative session ends at midnight Sunday. The Democratic governor had sent state police to try to round up Republicans, who also face $500-a-day fines.

“Our mission in walking out was to kill cap-and-trade,” Baertschiger said. “And that’s what we did.”
Quote:
Baertschiger said he received assurances from the Democratic Senate president and Gov. Kate Brown that the climate bill won’t move forward this session.
I hope it was a lie. I hope they lock the doors and force the vote. You wanna play hardball? Now we're playing hardball.

Meanwhile, the Gov should have been working with her fellow Governors to track and root out the people who helped the Republicans; they are a danger to any state's sovereignty when they threaten organized violence.

But the Democrats are weak WEAK weak and will do nothing of the sort.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 06-28-2019 at 05:58 PM.
  #66  
Old 06-29-2019, 03:02 PM
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The Republicans have already gone back on their word. The Democrats should as soon as they're back hold votes on not only the cap-and-trade bill, but also on the other two bills they walked out on before. If they need a fig leaf, change the punctuation marks in Section 12, Paragraph 7 so they can say that the original bill was killed; this is a different bill.
  #67  
Old 06-29-2019, 03:07 PM
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Oh, and while they're at it, change their procedural rules so that a majority counts as a quorum.
  #68  
Old 06-29-2019, 04:28 PM
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No, go lower than 50%. More like 25%. That way, it forces everyone to attend, for fear that a small determined group can push something through while most members are out golfing.

The quorum for the Canadian House of Commons is 10. The Senate, 15.
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  #69  
Old 06-29-2019, 07:48 PM
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https://apnews.com/141a6d202dac4c4480200957c4fe86ac
Quote:
Nine minority Republicans returned to the Senate on Saturday after Senate President Peter Courtney said the majority Democrats lacked the necessary 16 votes to pass the legislation, a statewide cap on carbon that allows companies to trade pollution credits. Shortly after convening, senators quickly voted 17-10 to send the climate proposal back to committee, essentially killing it for the session.
But
Quote:
One of the Republicans absent Saturday was Sen. Brian Boquist, who had told state police to come heavily armed and to send bachelor officers if they were going to forcibly return him to the Senate during the walkout. Senate Republican leader Herman Baertschiger, Jr., on Friday refused to condemn Boquist’s words, only saying the comments were unhelpful.

Boquist faces a formal complaint that will be taken up at a special committee hearing in July.
Not real impressed with Mr. Baertshiger, either.
  #70  
Old 06-29-2019, 08:05 PM
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Reading that quickly, I thought you said you weren't that impressed with Mr Batshit.



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  #71  
Old 06-29-2019, 08:30 PM
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The GOP says they'll come back and do their jobs.I hope it was a lie. I hope they lock the doors and force the vote. You wanna play hardball? Now we're playing hardball.

Meanwhile, the Gov should have been working with her fellow Governors to track and root out the people who helped the Republicans; they are a danger to any state's sovereignty when they threaten organized violence.

But the Democrats are weak WEAK weak and will do nothing of the sort.
I wouldn't say that they're weak - more like they were probably taken by surprise and didn't know what the best response was. I don't think we've seen the last of these tactics, though. I think other republican caucuses will probably use this as a template for how to push back on democratic majorities: they'll just threaten them with armed paramilitaries.

The Republican party is adopting some of the same rhetoric that was used by the Democratic party in 19th Century Democratic party. They're threatening lawlessness if they don't get their way.
  #72  
Old 06-29-2019, 09:17 PM
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But... but I thought the GOP was the party of law and order!
  #73  
Old 07-05-2019, 09:00 PM
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Happy to see this (Reuters).

Quote:
An Oregon state senator who was among Republican lawmakers who fled the Capitol last month to scuttle a vote on a bill to fight climate change faces a conduct hearing over remarks tinged with threats of violence about any efforts to force the senators to return.

...

The Senate Special Committee agenda for Monday calls for its two Democrats and two Republicans to consider a recommendation from an outside counsel that Boquist not be allowed to return to the “workplace” during an investigation.

The memorandum from the outside counsel, attorney Brenda Baumgart of the firm Stoel Rives LLP, cited the need to “ensure that the Capitol is free from threats of (or actual) violence and intimidation.”
I hope they fine him heavily and censure him to boot. And I hope he's voted out in 2020.
  #74  
Old 07-16-2019, 05:46 AM
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https://twitter.com/Oregon_GOP/statu...48747896655873

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonie Times
The recall paperwork, filed Monday by Oregon GOP chair Bill Currier, accused her of ignoring or overturning the will of the voters on driver’s licenses for illegal aliens and tax increases, as well as denying citizens protection from “the domestic terrorist threat known as Antifa.”

“Governor Brown has subjected the people of Oregon to a long line of abuses of power while at the same time refusing to address their legitimate concerns,” said the recall statement. “She has fostered a toxic political environment that stifles meaningful discourse. She has threatened retaliation against her own citizens when her political agenda is not successful in the legislature.”
...this is all manner of fucked up.
  #75  
Old 07-17-2019, 01:32 PM
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Talk about projection; wow!
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