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Old 07-13-2019, 10:15 PM
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Antifa terrorist attacks ICE detention center, gets killed


https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ention-center/

Guy had bombs / incendiary devices and a rifle. Not his first run-in with law enforcement over his political beliefs.
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Old 07-13-2019, 11:03 PM
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Terrible. I hate "suicide-by-cop". Just glad it didn't turn into "homicide-of-cop".
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Old 07-13-2019, 11:05 PM
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This happened about three miles from my house as the guttersnipe flies. When I read the name in the local birdcage liner I called someone who knows him pretty well, and she said he'd been getting more and more distraught about the local (privately run) ICE detention facility. While she was a bit surprised by his actions, she thought it could well have been a "suicide by cop" to call attention to conditions there.

But by all means attribute it to an Antifa conspiracy. After all, the anarchists are so well organized.

ETA: "attribute" is a bit harsh — it was more of an inference. Mea culpa.
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Old 07-13-2019, 11:08 PM
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Guy had bombs / incendiary devices and a rifle.
But fortunately, not much of a plan.
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Old 07-13-2019, 11:10 PM
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But fortunately, not much of a plan.
I think it's very likely that his plan was to get himself killed, and he executed that plan well enough to be successful.
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Old 07-13-2019, 11:21 PM
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Not, however, at all likely to be successful at accomplishing any other part of his supposed goals besides getting himself killed.

Attention will now be on the attack, and attention will be taken away from conditions at the centers. This was both obnoxious and stupid. Glad at least that nobody else was killed; sorry that he was.
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Old 07-13-2019, 11:21 PM
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Are we sure that he didn't think that it was Area 51?
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:07 AM
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But by all means attribute it to an Antifa conspiracy. After all, the anarchists are so well organized.

ETA: "attribute" is a bit harsh — it was more of an inference. Mea culpa.

1. Hurticane Ditka did not mention a conspiracy, which would suggest others were involved. He simply stated that an individual made the attack.

2. In the news article cited in the OP by HD, the individual's friend of over 20 years described him as an "anarchist and anti-fascist" and stated that she thought the attack was meant to implement his political beliefs, which matched how HD described it in the OP. Do you have reason to believe his friend was in error?
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Old 07-14-2019, 01:00 AM
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Antifa terrorist attacks ICE detention center, gets killed


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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ention-center/

Guy had bombs / incendiary devices and a rifle. Not his first run-in with law enforcement over his political beliefs.
I like how the word "Antifa" magically appears right in the title even though it's never mentioned anywhere in the article. The implication of an organized ideology, combined with how that word has been manipulated by the right into an inextricable relationship with the Democratic Party, would seem to casually suggest (without actually saying it) that the driving forces here were Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden (with special thanks for the generous financial support of George Soros and Tom Steyer).

While the real story here is simply that a lone nut attacked an ICE detention center because he was pissed off at the well-publicized abuses there and was apparently rather unhinged. But the real story -- such as with a factual headline like the one in the actual article -- "Armed man attacking Tacomas ICE detention center killed in officer-involved shooting " -- doesn't really have the desired political clout, does it?
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Old 07-14-2019, 01:26 AM
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For years, the Second Amendment fundamentalists have been arguing that we all need guns to protect ourselves against government tyranny. I guess this guy took that message to heart. He was just going for a "Second Amendment solution" to the problem of our government running fucking concentration camps.

I don't in any way condone this person's actions. But anyone who has a "Molon Labe" sticker or shirt in their possession or thinks Ted Nugent and Dana Loesch have some pretty good ideas has no standing to criticize this attacker. You think private gun ownership is a check on government power? Well, so did this guy. This is what it looks like. This is what you wanted.

Or, did you think guns were only for conservatives?

("You" being Second Amendment fundamentalists, not necessarily Hurricane Ditka, whose views on the matter I'm not conversant in.)
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Old 07-14-2019, 01:51 AM
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1. Hurticane Ditka did not mention a conspiracy, which would suggest others were involved. He simply stated that an individual made the attack.

2. In the news article cited in the OP by HD, the individual's friend of over 20 years described him as an "anarchist and anti-fascist" and stated that she thought the attack was meant to implement his political beliefs, which matched how HD described it in the OP. Do you have reason to believe his friend was in error?
1. False. He called them a member of Antifa. Antifa is not an individual. He is proposing, from the very title, that this was part of an act by the evil entity "Antifa," rather than the act of a loner acting on his own.

2. Why would he need to be in error? Antifa isn't just a synonym for "anti-fascist", which describes the majority of people in the world (I would hope.) It doesn't mean "anarchist and anti-fascist," either. It is a term for loose confederation of anarchistic groups that are attempting to fight fascism, one not averse to using violence when they believe it necessary.

I can't rule out that the guy in fact does identify himself with Antifa. It's even possible they would claim him. But nothing in the article reveals this. The title is, at best, a premature accusation.
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Old 07-14-2019, 07:13 AM
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Note that the OP has expressed appproval of what Timothy McVeigh did yet thinks Antifa is too violent.
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Old 07-14-2019, 09:09 AM
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Note that the OP has expressed appproval of what Timothy McVeigh did yet thinks Antifa is too violent.
Well, to be fair, McVeigh wanted to retaliate for the Waco disaster and start a race war, so he blew up a bunch of random bureaucrats and their children. That's easily understandable. Attacking a concentration camp in an attempt to free the prisoners there is a little more extreme.

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 07-14-2019 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 07-14-2019, 09:44 AM
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Note that the OP has expressed appproval of what Timothy McVeigh did yet thinks Antifa is too violent.
I've heard that antifa people sometimes hit nazis in the head with bike locks. That's kind of like blowing up innocent people, eh? Maybe the guy mentioned in the OP should have instead used a truck filled with ammonium nitrate.

Last edited by bobot; 07-14-2019 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:05 AM
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I like how the word "Antifa" magically appears right in the title even though it's never mentioned anywhere in the article. The implication of an organized ideology, combined with how that word has been manipulated by the right into an inextricable relationship with the Democratic Party, would seem to casually suggest (without actually saying it) that the driving forces here were Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden (with special thanks for the generous financial support of George Soros and Tom Steyer).
It doesn't casually suggest it. It plainly suggests it. There’s no manipulation of the word “Antifa”. This incident precisely fits the definition of it’s members. The connection with the Democratic Party is the manufactured immigration rhetoric driving it. This wasn’t a crisis when Democrats held the presidency and both houses.
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While the real story here is simply that a lone nut attacked an ICE detention center because he was pissed off at the well-publicized abuses there and was apparently rather unhinged. But the real story -- such as with a factual headline like the one in the actual article -- "Armed man attacking Tacomas ICE detention center killed in officer-involved shooting " -- doesn't really have the desired political clout, does it?
The real story is the “well-publicized” stories weren’t headline news prior to Trump despite it being an on-going issue. It’s party fed rhetoric designed to create an emotional response. This is the 2nd attack driven by this kind of nonsense.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:10 AM
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It wasn't a crisis before because we weren't holding immigrants in deplorable conditions indefinitely before. It's a manufactured crisis because Trump manufactured it by establishing a gulag system!
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:18 AM
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I've heard that antifa people sometimes hit nazis in the head with bike locks. That's kind of like blowing up innocent people, eh? Maybe the guy mentioned in the OP should have instead used a truck filled with ammonium nitrate.
Or, and I'm just throwing this out, they could protest peacefully.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:25 AM
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It wasn't a crisis before because we weren't holding immigrants in deplorable conditions indefinitely before. It's a manufactured crisis because Trump manufactured it by establishing a gulag system!
It's virtually the same system in place from the previous administration.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:32 AM
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It's virtually the same system in place from the previous administration.
Cite.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:36 AM
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It's virtually the same system in place from the previous administration.
So all Trump's rhetoric about getting tough on immigrants is a lie? Or is he just phenomenally incompetent and hasn't managed to get tough on immigrants?

The cognitive dissonance is astonishing.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:44 AM
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For years, the Second Amendment fundamentalists have been arguing that we all need guns to protect ourselves against government tyranny. I guess this guy took that message to heart. He was just going for a "Second Amendment solution" to the problem of our government running fucking concentration camps.

I don't in any way condone this person's actions. But anyone who has a "Molon Labe" sticker or shirt in their possession or thinks Ted Nugent and Dana Loesch have some pretty good ideas has no standing to criticize this attacker. You think private gun ownership is a check on government power? Well, so did this guy. This is what it looks like. This is what you wanted.

Or, did you think guns were only for conservatives?

("You" being Second Amendment fundamentalists, not necessarily Hurricane Ditka, whose views on the matter I'm not conversant in.)
Guns are democracy in its rawest form. In this case, the guy was outvoted 329,000,000 to one.

Last edited by Lumpy; 07-14-2019 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:17 PM
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I like how the word "Antifa" magically appears right in the title even though it's never mentioned anywhere in the article. The implication of an organized ideology, combined with how that word has been manipulated by the right into an inextricable relationship with the Democratic Party, would seem to casually suggest (without actually saying it) that the driving forces here were Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden (with special thanks for the generous financial support of George Soros and Tom Steyer).

While the real story here is simply that a lone nut attacked an ICE detention center because he was pissed off at the well-publicized abuses there and was apparently rather unhinged. But the real story -- such as with a factual headline like the one in the actual article -- "Armed man attacking Tacomas ICE detention center killed in officer-involved shooting " -- doesn't really have the desired political clout, does it?
Good catch and call-out.
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:31 PM
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Guns are democracy in its rawest form. In this case, the guy was outvoted 329,000,000 to one.
Sorry, I honestly don't understand your post.
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:34 PM
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I believe it's: might makes right.
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:47 PM
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Cite.
You first
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Old 07-14-2019, 01:04 PM
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Or, and I'm just throwing this out, they could protest peacefully.
Protests and demonstrations at the Northwest Detention Center are prit' near a daily occurrence. Not just because it's an ICE facility, but also because it's being run by a for-profit entity (the GEO Group), which was sued by the state for violating minimum wage laws by using detainees for virtually all non-security work and paying them next to nothing. So protests are nothing new; it seems that Van Spronsen just went over the edge.

(Incidentally, the headline in the local fishwrap's web edition — "Man killed at Tacoma immigrant detention center jumped on cop in 2018 protest" — is a tad misleading. He was apparently trying to pull the officer away from another protestor whom the officer was trying to arrest. Not something to be condoned, but a far cry from the image of an assailant with a scimitar crying "Allahu Akbar!" that the headline suggests.)
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Old 07-14-2019, 01:17 PM
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You first
OK. I'm on my mobile at the moment, and pasting links is a pain in the ass. It'll be a bit later in the day when I'm at a PC.
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Old 07-14-2019, 01:44 PM
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So all Trump's rhetoric about getting tough on immigrants is a lie? Or is he just phenomenally incompetent and hasn't managed to get tough on immigrants?

The cognitive dissonance is astonishing.
Obama deported 2.9 million people or an average of 362,500 deportations a year.

in 2017 Trump deported 226,000
in 2018 Trump deported 256,000

He will need to average 403,000 deportations a year to break even with the Obama.

So you can understand why I'm confused by your post. Obama talked about making illegal immigrants accountable and he made good on it. he talked about the need for background checks, penalties, the need to learn English and their placement at the end of the line of those already going through the process legally.

Trump needs to up his game considerably to match the political rhetoric generated on the issue.
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Old 07-14-2019, 01:52 PM
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Cite?
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Old 07-14-2019, 01:55 PM
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LOL, the dead idiot literally wrote "I am antifa" in his manifesto posted, conveniently, on the Seattle Antifa Facebook page: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...82014398817287
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Old 07-14-2019, 01:59 PM
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Protests and demonstrations at the Northwest Detention Center are prit' near a daily occurrence. Not just because it's an ICE facility, but also because it's being run by a for-profit entity (the GEO Group), which was sued by the state for violating minimum wage laws by using detainees for virtually all non-security work and paying them next to nothing. So protests are nothing new; it seems that Van Spronsen just went over the edge.

(Incidentally, the headline in the local fishwrap's web edition — "Man killed at Tacoma immigrant detention center jumped on cop in 2018 protest" — is a tad misleading. He was apparently trying to pull the officer away from another protestor whom the officer was trying to arrest. Not something to be condoned, but a far cry from the image of an assailant with a scimitar crying "Allahu Akbar!" that the headline suggests.)
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. He was linked with Antifa and not Islamic terrorists. I simply pointed out the political rhetoric driving Antifa criminal activity as well as the 2 political attacks we've seen.

I don't understand your comment about Spronsen's actions being over he edge. His actions were criminal and violent.
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Old 07-14-2019, 02:01 PM
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LOL, the dead idiot literally wrote "I am antifa" in his manifesto posted, conveniently, on the Seattle Antifa Facebook page: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...82014398817287
Much the same way you literally support fascism.
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Old 07-14-2019, 02:01 PM
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Obama deported 2.9 million people or an average of 362,500 deportations a year.

in 2017 Trump deported 226,000
in 2018 Trump deported 256,000

He will need to average 403,000 deportations a year to break even with the Obama.

So you can understand why I'm confused by your post. Obama talked about making illegal immigrants accountable and he made good on it. he talked about the need for background checks, penalties, the need to learn English and their placement at the end of the line of those already going through the process legally.

Trump needs to up his game considerably to match the political rhetoric generated on the issue.
So you are admitting that Democrats have an effective policy for illegal immigrants, which is not "open borders", and Trumpublicans are incompetent?
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Old 07-14-2019, 02:03 PM
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1. Hurticane Ditka did not mention a conspiracy, which would suggest others were involved. He simply stated that an individual made the attack.
Yes, he did. He identified the criminal as an "Antifa terrorist". That's saying that the killer was acting as part of a movement.

If I started a post and titled it "Republican breaks the law" I'm not simply talking about just what that particular individual did; I'm saying his action was indicative of Republicans in general.
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Old 07-14-2019, 02:04 PM
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LOL, the dead idiot literally wrote "I am antifa" in his manifesto posted
That was just locker room banter.

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Old 07-14-2019, 02:08 PM
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LOL, the dead idiot literally wrote "I am antifa" in his manifesto posted, conveniently, on the Seattle Antifa Facebook page: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...82014398817287
If I post, "I am The Hamburgler" on social media and then go and rob a McDonalds, does that make me "The Hamburgler"?
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Old 07-14-2019, 02:16 PM
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For years, the Second Amendment fundamentalists have been arguing that we all need guns to protect ourselves against government tyranny. I guess this guy took that message to heart. He was just going for a "Second Amendment solution" to the problem of our government running fucking concentration camps.

I don't in any way condone this person's actions. But anyone who has a "Molon Labe" sticker or shirt in their possession or thinks Ted Nugent and Dana Loesch have some pretty good ideas has no standing to criticize this attacker. You think private gun ownership is a check on government power? Well, so did this guy. This is what it looks like. This is what you wanted.

Or, did you think guns were only for conservatives?
Guns are for protecting white people, using them to protect brown people is the definition of anti-american.

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Guns are democracy in its rawest form. In this case, the guy was outvoted 329,000,000 to one.
There were 329 million guns there, all voting against him? That seems overkill on the part of border patrol, no wonder they charge $775 a night and yet cannot afford to give children a toothbrush. Do each of the detention centers also have this massive number of guns?


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It's virtually the same system in place from the previous administration.
Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, and maybe you will even manage to convince yourself of it, but the repetition will not be likely to get anyone else to.

I suppose it does depend on your definition of the word "virtually". If literally can mean figuratively, then maybe virtually can mean whatever weasel word you want it to mean. I can agree with your statement if you are using virtually in the sense of "The sun is virtually the same thing as the moon."
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Old 07-14-2019, 02:17 PM
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LOL, the dead idiot literally wrote "I am antifa" in his manifesto posted, conveniently, on the Seattle Antifa Facebook page: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...82014398817287
Good catch and call-out.
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Old 07-14-2019, 02:25 PM
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Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, and maybe you will even manage to convince yourself of it, but the repetition will not be likely to get anyone else to.

I suppose it does depend on your definition of the word "virtually". If literally can mean figuratively, then maybe virtually can mean whatever weasel word you want it to mean. I can agree with your statement if you are using virtually in the sense of "The sun is virtually the same thing as the moon."
Well I missed the shut down of Obama's detention camps for Trumps concentration camps. Maybe you can enlighten us all.

I did read the hyperbole from various politicians calling them concentration camps. You'll note that was one of the buzz words used by the Antifa attacker in his manifesto.
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Old 07-14-2019, 02:27 PM
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Guns are for protecting white people, using them to protect brown people is the definition of anti-american.
That's got to be one of the most racist things I've seen in a long time. I see lots of black people getting their CCW now. We of the CCW crowd welcome it. Greatly.
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Old 07-14-2019, 03:07 PM
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Yes, he did. He identified the criminal as an "Antifa terrorist". That's saying that the killer was acting as part of a movement.

If I started a post and titled it "Republican breaks the law" I'm not simply talking about just what that particular individual did; I'm saying his action was indicative of Republicans in general.
Was the dead guy white? Because if right wingers are using the term "terrorist" with white guys now, that's a big step!
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Old 07-14-2019, 03:11 PM
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LOL, the dead idiot literally wrote "I am antifa" in his manifesto posted, conveniently, on the Seattle Antifa Facebook page: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...82014398817287
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Good catch and call-out.
Not really. Little "a"; not big "A". It makes a difference, just like there is a difference between someone who identifies as conservative and someone who identifies as Conservative.
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Old 07-14-2019, 03:12 PM
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Well I missed the shut down of Obama's detention camps for Trumps concentration camps. Maybe you can enlighten us all.
Nah, all you have to do is actually pay attention, and it's pretty easy to follow along. I'm sure you'll get it eventually. Of course, if you are motivated to not get it, to not understand, if you need to believe that this is the case in order to live with your support of this policy, then I understand why you will not be able to. You cannot understand something that you fundamentally do not want to.
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I did read the hyperbole from various politicians calling them concentration camps. You'll note that was one of the buzz words used by the Antifa attacker in his manifesto.
So, lets let you win your argument here. Lets say that Obama started this program, and that Trump has done absolutely nothing but continue it in Obama's honor. We should even call them Obama camps.

Are you against them now?

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That's got to be one of the most racist things I've seen in a long time. I see lots of black people getting their CCW now. We of the CCW crowd welcome it. Greatly.
Nice attempt at playing the race card there, but unfortunately, it failed miserably, and just makes your post look pretty foolish and cringeworthy.

So, lets say it was a bunch of white people using their guns to try to prevent an arrest of a white person by govt agents, would you consider them to be terrorists?
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Old 07-14-2019, 03:25 PM
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Not really. Little "a"; not big "A". It makes a difference, just like there is a difference between someone who identifies as conservative and someone who identifies as Conservative.
Really? Do you consider yourself well-acquainted with one or both groups? Someone qualified to speak for them? What's the difference, in your mind, between "antifa" and "Antifa"? How much overlap is there between them? Could you maybe provide some examples of people that fall into one, but not the other category? I'll give you some bonus points if you can find some other examples of people who post "I am antifa" in their manifestos who wouldn't generally be considered "Antifa".
  #45  
Old 07-14-2019, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Really? Do you consider yourself well-acquainted with one or both groups? Someone qualified to speak for them? What's the difference, in your mind, between "antifa" and "Antifa"? How much overlap is there between them? Could you maybe provide some examples of people that fall into one, but not the other category? I'll give you some bonus points if you can find some other examples of people who post "I am antifa" in their manifestos who wouldn't generally be considered "Antifa".
Those certainly are some questions that you just asked.
  #46  
Old 07-14-2019, 03:40 PM
Little Nemo is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
It's virtually the same system in place from the previous administration.
Suppose you own a gun for ten years and then transfer ownership to me. And then I go out and shoot ten people. What does that prove?

It proves the gun wasn't the problem. The problem was the way I used the gun for wrongful purposes.

That's what Trump has done. He took a system that was working lawfully and turned it into a gulag system.
  #47  
Old 07-14-2019, 03:58 PM
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We weren't breaking up families and not even bothering to keep track of who is who, either. To suggest that the immigration lunacy Trump is employing is just what Obama implemented is stunningly ignorant.
  #48  
Old 07-14-2019, 04:51 PM
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I wouldn’t call it ignorant. I’m simply not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.
  #49  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Not really. Little "a"; not big "A". It makes a difference, just like there is a difference between someone who identifies as conservative and someone who identifies as Conservative.
Snowboarder Bo,

The Pugent Sound John Brown Gun Club describes itself as "an anti-fascist, anti-racist, pro-worker community defense organization committed to accountable, community-led defense in the Puget Sound (aka Salish Sea) region of western Washington, in the Pacific Northwest, USA."

What do you think? Big "A" Antifa or little "a"?

A couple of hours ago on their FaceBook page, the PSJBGC posted:

Quote:
Early in the morning on July 13, Willem Van Spronsen, a former member of Puget Sound John Brown Gun Club, was killed in an altercation at a facility adjacent to the Northwest Detention Center. ...
What do you think? Still little "a" antifa?
  #50  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:06 PM
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All this guy did was get Antifa discredited. He didn't even inflict any casualties.
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