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Old 09-24-2019, 03:23 PM
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The Trump Impeachment Inquiry


I know we've got like a million threads about Trump's corruption, but today's news is the start of a whole new chapter (or, likely, an entire spinoff series):
Quote:
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi plans to announce a formal impeachment inquiry into President Trump, a dramatic turnaround by the Democratic leader that sets up a constitutional and political clash pitting the Congress against the nation’s chief executive.

Pelosi (D-Calif.) is slated to make her announcement later on Tuesday after a closed-door meeting with her caucus, according to Democratic officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to freely describe private deliberations.
What should we expect in the next week or so? Will some of the folks who gave such shitty testimony earlier be recalled to give more testimony under the rules of an impeachment inquiry? Will Trump's constant claims of executive privilege be litigated?

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 09-24-2019 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 03:26 PM
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Even though I get that people think we have to impeach, I fear this has little chance of doing anything except getting him re-elected.
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Old 09-24-2019, 03:34 PM
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Nate Silver already has a column up. It's a pretty interesting take, including some advice for Democrats that's pretty obvious, and some that I wouldn't have expected:
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Lesson No. 1: Be narrow and specific, perhaps with a near-exclusive focus on Ukraine. For some Democrats in Congress who were nearly ready to impeach Trump over Russia, Ukraine may have been the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. But Democrats probably shouldn’t portray it to the public that way.
...
Lesson No. 2: Don’t overpromise on details unless you can deliver. You’ll sometimes hear the sentiment that the entire Mueller Report might have been more politically damaging to Trump if it had dropped all at once instead of slowly being teased out through indictments and news accounts and investigative reports over the course of two years. That seems reasonable enough, although there’s no way to test the hypothetical. It’s also true, though, that the public’s reaction to news events — and the media’s reaction to news events, which conditions the public’s response — is often calibrated relative to “expectations.” If the expectations get too far ahead of themselves, even a relatively damaging story may land with a thud.
...
Lesson No. 3: Emphasize the threats to election integrity. As I mentioned, I suspect (though I certainly can’t prove) that some of the public’s reluctance on impeachment over Russia stemmed from the fact that Trump was still in his first term and is running for re-election. We want to decide this one for ourselves, the public may have been saying.
...
Lesson No. 4: Stay unified. As I said above, I don’t think Democratic infighting over impeachment on Russia explains all, or necessarily most, of its unpopularity with the general public. But it probably explains some of it.
...
Lesson No. 5: Work quickly and urgently. Now that they’ve seemingly decided to move forward on Ukraine, there are lots of reasons for Democrats to move fast. It will reduce the potential for public fatigue over the story, which can set in quickly for all news stories in the Trump era. And a sense of urgency could underscore some of the other themes here, e.g. that there’s an immediate threat to the integrity of the 2020 election, to national security, or both.
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Old 09-24-2019, 03:40 PM
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OK, but how do you address election security without making it about Russia too? Ukraine isn't scary to anybody in the US, in fact we're supposed to be on their side in the border conflict, but Russia and Putin certainly count. Trump's fealty to Putin is a far bigger deal ISTM (unless there's a lot more coming out about Ukraine), and there's the Mueller report to back it up.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:03 PM
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Pelosi announcement in a few minutes, according to news sites.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Will some of the folks who gave such shitty testimony earlier be recalled to give more testimony under the rules of an impeachment inquiry?
I doubt Pelosi will take an everything and the kitchen sink approach. I expect a more targeted process on Ukraine and possibly a selection of some of the most serious allegation with a good chance of being proven to a high degree of certainty. Something like the campaign finance violations for the Stormy Daniels payment probably doesn't make her focus IMO. Campaign finance violations are pretty common and not criminal unless there's knowledge it's a violation. Cohen with a law degree had a harder time claiming ignorance. Trump makes a pretty good case on a daily basis for ignorance about almost everything. A non-criminal and relatively minor offense to distract from the serious allegations is probably not something Pelosi wants in the mix. Especially when it's one that's basically played out publicly already and hasn't really changed minds. It's also probably not something that the new House members who narrowly won blue leaning districts last year want to explain to their constituents. Ukraine is finally swinging them out of silence to support impeachment. That piece is in.How much more ends up in the inquiry is the big question. I expect the breadth of the investigation is a big part of the discussion in today's caucus meeting.

We'll see about that prediction. If I'm right that means a lot of the relatively shitty testimony will be about allegations that don't end up part of the impeachment inquiry.

Quote:
Will Trump's constant claims of executive privilege be litigated?
I've been expecting that to happen eventually anyway. Especially on the NY grand jury investigation. While a state case, it might set the stage for decisions related to Congress and federal limitations.

Last edited by DinoR; 09-24-2019 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:10 PM
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Nancy Pelosi: "Today, I'm announcing the House of Representatives is moving forward with an official impeachment inquiry. I'm directing our six committees to proceed with their investigations under that umbrella ... The president must be held accountable."
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:13 PM
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Impeachment proceedings is what we need, so yay.

I disagree Silver’s take that this needs to focus on Ukraine. Not only are his actions with Ukraine eerily similar to his alleged actions with Russia leading up to the election, but his attempts to obstruct justice are similar as well. Viewing the Ukraine thing in isolation means ignoring the massive elephant in the room.

Trump cheated his in way into the White House and he’s trying to cheat again. Even if it means putting our national security interests at risk.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:18 PM
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[P.A.] Folks, gonna go ahead and have you return to your seats and strap in -- Looks like we've got a bit of a bumpy ride comin' up for ... oh, about the next 13 months. [/P.A.]

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Old 09-24-2019, 04:24 PM
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Adam Schiff tweets that the intel community whistleblower wants to testify:

Quote:
We have been informed by the whistleblower’s counsel that their client would like to speak to our committee and has requested guidance from the Acting DNI as to how to do so.

We‘re in touch with counsel and look forward to the whistleblower’s testimony as soon as this week.
Adam Schiff (@RepAdamSchiff) September 24, 2019
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:29 PM
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My heavily right-wing coworkers are celebrating Trump's second term of office with this news. They see this as an absolute disaster for the Dems.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:30 PM
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... They see this as an absolute disaster for the Dems.
As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:31 PM
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How does this generate more Trump voters? Were there Trump voters who were planning on staying home, but now they're going to come out and vote? I don't buy it.

Last edited by bobot; 09-24-2019 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:35 PM
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Oh, and by the way, how about those whistleblower concerns about Trump. Much ado about nothing, eh?
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:36 PM
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How does this generate more Trump voters?
12 hours ago, NPR published this story:

Quote:
The truth is — impeachment has almost never been popular. It tends to pump up the partisans in either party but has far less allure for the less politically inclined. Independent voters, it should be noted, have been especially slow to take up the impeachment cry.
I'd recommend you read it.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:42 PM
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My heavily right-wing coworkers are celebrating Trump's second term of office with this news. They see this as an absolute disaster for the Dems.
Well, Trump voters clearly have the most brilliant minds of our generation so.....

Oh wait.

Whatever.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:43 PM
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It's an absolute disaster for America that democrats need to burn all of this political capital because Republicans elected a fucking moron.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:44 PM
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As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
I know this may be a foreign concept to Republicans, but sometimes doing what's right for the country is more important than maneuvering for the next election. When the president allegedly leverages the power of his office to strongarm a foreign nation into digging up dirt on his political opponent, this is one of those times.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:47 PM
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As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...n-offers-clue/

Quote:
As many who support impeachment hearings have pointed out, in early 1973, Gallup polling showed that only 19 percent of Americans supported removing President Richard M. Nixon. By the summer of 1974, when Nixon resigned, support had climbed to the high 50s — which illustrates that on impeachment, public opinion can be moved in a big way, including, presumably, on Trump.
When done for valid reasons, impeachment can tarnish a presidents reputation and reduce their popularity. If this impeachment inquiry opens up the floodgates on all Trump's crimes, it could make him less popular with independent voters.

His base will be more motivated, but they were going to vote for him anyway.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:48 PM
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In my fevered imagination, supporting actual and obvious election interference through using public money to convince a foreign government to manufacture dirt about your opponent might just be a bridge too far for some Republicans.

I fantasize about Moscow Mitch and the others all getting together and saying "Is this it? Yes, this is it. Punt him NOW, and fast." And this time next week, Trump is gone.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:51 PM
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I tend to think this was the right move, especially if they move relatively quickly. Use those increased powers to subpoena absolutely everything and everyone, ASAP, and the courts will probably process the WH's resistance much more quickly. However it goes, make it go quickly. If it goes well, great for the Democrats... if it goes badly, then there will be plenty of time to try and make up for it.

But at least Congress will have used their powers appropriately to fight corruption and wrongdoing at the top.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
12 hours ago, NPR published this story:



I'd recommend you read it.
Thanks, just read it. Here is an interesting bit:

Quote:
Even after Nixon fired the special prosecutor, attorney general and deputy attorney general in "the Saturday Night Massacre" that fall, the Gallup percentage for removal went up only 9 percentage points and remained below 40%.

That figure would drift upward through the winter and spring of 1974, a time when it moved in a range similar to the current impeachment numbers for President Trump.

"Only in early August, following the House Judiciary Committee's recommendation that Nixon be impeached and the Supreme Court's decision that he surrender his audio tapes, did a clear majority — 57% — come to the view that the president should be removed from office," Kohut wrote.
So support for impeaching Trump has already reached what it was for Nixon a few months before he resigned and the investigation hasn't even started yet.

Any comparison to Clinton's impeachment is apples to oranges. His was unpopular because most of the public saw it for the bullshit that it was.
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:03 PM
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Opportunity Knocks!


This is the opportunity for the Republican establishment to regain control. They need only lay low and let the Dems impeach while encouraging Republican serving anti-Trump propaganda - Trump was always a closet Democrat, his election was a Make Trump Great scam, stuff like that. Vote him out of office by one vote.


Then run Nicky Haley against Warren in 2020!
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:23 PM
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Quiet, you.

(Actually, I think a healthy, sane, robust Republican Party would be a good thing, for EVERYONE, so I kind of like your idea).
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:25 PM
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Another thing that concerns me is if that you're a centrist voter on the fence about Trump, you're probably not the sharpest knife. My bet is they take a Senate acquittal as meaning "Not Guilty," as if this is a legal process, then they get mad at the Dems for wasting the country's time and vote Trump.
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:28 PM
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Quiet, you.

(Actually, I think a healthy, sane, robust Republican Party would be a good thing, for EVERYONE, so I kind of like your idea).
I agree, except they don't deserve to be perceived as healthy and sane for at least two presidential election cycles, or until three SCOTUS justices can be replaced, whichever comes first.
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:30 PM
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As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
I remember that the opposition party won the following election. Was that the lesson?
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:42 PM
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Moderating


I closed two parallel threads and directed traffic to this one. The threads I closed were here and here.

[/moderating]
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:44 PM
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As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
I used to fear that starting impeachment proceedings against Trump would, ultimately, strengthen his political standing and make re-election more likely.

But at this point, I doubt there are many who will now switch to Trump because of the outcome. His core seems pretty static. If it hasn't grown by now, it's not gonna grow much in the future.

In fact, the entire impeachment process will probably not continue interminably. It will finish way before next November. If Trump is found guilty, case closed. If the Senate doesn't convict, or proceedings are stopped before that (in fact, Mitch could refuse to hold it), it will be old news before November 2020. In today's news cycle, anything that happened more than a week ago is forgotten. People aren't gonna vote for Trump because "hey, he was found 'innocent' last year".
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:50 PM
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I agree, except they don't deserve to be perceived as healthy and sane for at least two presidential election cycles, or until three SCOTUS justices can be replaced, whichever comes first.
Amen to that.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:00 PM
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Here's my concern with this situation:

If it seems like things finally might start turning on Trump, McConnel and all of the other Republicans who enabled him are probably going to try to cut a deal with Pelosi and the democratic leadership. "Okay, so we'll help you get rid of Trump, but leave us out of it."

And I fear that the democratic leadership would be stupid enough and derelict in their duties enough to take such a deal.

Trump is only one aspect of a larger problem - the radicalized Republican base and the corrupt Republican party that will do anything to enhance their own power, rig the system in their favor, and loot the country as hard as they can. Pretending that this is all just Trump, and if we get rid of him it all goes back to normal, would be a horrific mistake.

If Trump was the only problem, then a responsible Republican party would've already been on board with getting rid of him 200 scandals ago. Their corruption and complicity is what kept him protected no matter how badly he fucked up. If those same people remain in power after this, the situation gets worse.

The Republicans now know that their radicalized, hateful base will support absolutely anything Fox News tells them to support, anything that anyone who isn't part of their in-group thinks is bad, they're all for it. So the next Republican president isn't going to be a senile clown who can't speak a sentence or two - he's going to be a smooth operator who knows full well how to take advantage of his radicalized base, who can sound like a relatively normal politician while also using the dog whistles to throw the republican base a bone while much more effectively executing an evil agenda like coordinating foreign rigging of our election in their favor, continuing naked power grabs (like in North Carolina), domestic rigging and manipulation of elections (like in Georgia), stacking the courts with radical right wing judges, obstructing the democrats no matter what, like under Obama, etc.

It's not enough to just get rid of Trump. And in fact, getting rid of Trump alone might be the most dangerous of all options. There has to be a reckoning, a purge. We have to acknowledge that what has gone on in recent years is way outside the norm, and way outside of what can be acceptable from an American political party.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:06 PM
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A couple thoughts from a Canadian:

This is much different than Clinton's impeachment. They wanted to impeach Clinton over lying about a BJ in the oval office. That's pretty frivolous. This impeachment is regarding Trump conspiring/black mailing a foreign country for political gain! Plus the possibility of at least 2-3 other major charges for things Trump has done. Totally an apples to oranges situation!

My other thought is after watching Bill Maher this weekend, one of the panelists had an excellent point: if you don't start impeachment proceedings because of what Trump did with the Ukraine, you set a dangerous precedent that would allow future presidents to the same (if not worse) and know there are no repercussions. Even if you know impeachment won't happen (because the other guys run the Senate) there has to be a record of you trying! And who knows, maybe something truly earth shattering will come out of the proceedings and "Moscow Mitch" might actually find a spine inside his slimy bag of endoplasm!

You'll never move his base from not voting for him, but I would hope the rest of the Republican "Patriots" will finally see the light and not vote for this clown in the next election.

And here's another curve ball, if impeachment proceeds and forces Trump to resign, before November 2020. What happens to the 2020 election? The Republicans will need to come up with a candidate, what if the resignation is after their convention? Would the running mate (Pence?) be the defacto candidate?

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Old 09-24-2019, 06:07 PM
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This seems like counting your chickens before they've hatched. You haven't even gotten "rid of Trump" yet (and you're very unlikely to do so) and yet you've already moved on to 'we also need to get rid of these other guys'?
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
...Use those increased powers to subpoena absolutely everything and everyone, ASAP, and the courts will probably process the WH's resistance much more quickly. ....
...and the Trumpites will refuse to comply with those court orders much more quickly, too.

Why wouldn't they? Who would be enforcing any court orders? Why, William Barr's Justice Department. Guess how he's going to handle this....just guess.

I can see that Pelosi had to move. The activist base was trending toward giving Trump a complete pass while declaring Pelosi to be History's Greatest Villain.

But, what, exactly, is going to be different now? The witnesses are going to go on refusing to comply, and facing no consequences for that refusal. The American people aren't going to learn any more about Trump's misdeeds than they've learned up until now (which is to say that some fraction of them may hear a few rumors here or there, but nothing that will convince them that Trump should be removed).





Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
... Will some of the folks who gave such shitty testimony earlier be recalled to give more testimony under the rules of an impeachment inquiry? ...
I'm curious as to what you see those rules as being....?
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:11 PM
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This seems like counting your chickens before they've hatched. You haven't even gotten "rid of Trump" yet (and you're very unlikely to do so) and yet you've already moved on to 'we also need to get rid of these other guys'?
The majority can dream, can't it?
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:12 PM
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As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
So that's it? We have one example of an impeachment that backfired, so impeachment is always wrong?

Clinton's impeachment backfired because it was obvious that the Republicans were just trying to create something out of nothing, playing partisan games, and trying to overreact to minor thing they found over him. So they impeached him over something everyone knew was small potatoes and basically had nothing to do with his job, and that backfired.

And now you've concluded that's all that can happen. No matter the circumstances, with a sample size of one, impeachment backfires. Doesn't matter if the president is a senile moron ruining America's standing in the world, sucking the dick of any dictator he can find, and probably actively under the control of our greatest geopolitical enemy - there can be no circumstances that would justify impeachment, because hey, you should learn "the lessons of impeachment"

It's a ridiculous comparison.

What these two impeachment proceedings will have in common is that they involved a radical bunch of tribal fanatics that will support their side no matter what. In the first case, the fanatics were determined to get Clinton for anything, no matter how minor. In this case, the fanatics believe that their guy cannot be impeached for anything, no matter how major. In both cases, it's the same toxic group that operates irrationally yet powerfully, completely wrecking any semblance of rationality in American politics.
  #37  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:14 PM
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When done for valid reasons, impeachment can tarnish a presidents reputation and reduce their popularity.
The bolded part times 1000.

People have been assuming that since Clinton's approval ratings went up after he was impeached, it would happen under any impeachment scenario.

The reason the public didn't turn against Clinton (like with Nixon) was because people looked at the offense and concluded it didn't merit impeachment.

How will the public react to this? We'll find out.

But I'll take any advice from Trump supporters on Democratic campaign strategy like a Hatfield telling a McCoy where to aim.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:21 PM
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. . .
The reason the public didn't turn against Clinton (like with Nixon) was because people looked at the offense and concluded it didn't merit impeachment.
Do you mean "people" as being the Senate? I don't know the numbers but wasn't it a pretty much party line vote (with a few Republicans crossing over and voting not guilty)?

Last edited by KarlGauss; 09-24-2019 at 06:21 PM.
  #39  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:29 PM
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Impeachment ≠ Conviction


I'm not talking about conviction. That requires (what is it -- two thirds?) of the Senate voting to convict, and I know that's not ever going to happen.

But it's not clear what an impeachment in the House would do to voters outside of the shoot-someone-on 5th-Avenue base.

A lot depends on what we learn in the proceedings.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:32 PM
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The majority can dream, can't it?
You mean 'minority', right? I'm pretty sure a solid majority of the public is against impeaching Trump:


Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 09-24-2019 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:36 PM
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... it was obvious that the Republicans were just trying to create something out of nothing, playing partisan games, and trying to overreact to minor thing they found over him. ...
This perfectly-describes a common view of what the dems have been doing to President Trump ever since he won the election.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:37 PM
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You mean 'minority', right? I'm pretty sure a solid majority of the public is against impeaching Trump:
No, I mean the majority of the country that didn't vote for him and hate his orange guts.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:38 PM
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or proceedings are stopped before that (in fact, Mitch could refuse to hold it)
No he can't. This canard has been repeatedly disproven in another impeachment thread.

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Originally Posted by McDeath_the_Mad View Post
A couple thoughts from a Canadian:

This is much different than Clinton's impeachment. They wanted to impeach Clinton over lying about a BJ in the oval office. That's pretty frivolous.
Just to put it in a historical context, many of the Senators that voted to acquit Clinton also voted to convict Judge Walter Nixon on pretty much the same thing less than a decade earlier (perjury to a grand jury). And just before THAT Judge Harry Claiborne was convicted of perjury although his was more about filing false tax returns than the actual lying - but as pointed out in the Articles of Impeachment the tax returns were filed under penalty of perjury. So impeachment & conviction for perjury was very much a thing at the time. It wasn't until Clinton's impeachment that all of the sudden perjury was not an impeachable offense.
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Last edited by Saint Cad; 09-24-2019 at 06:39 PM.
  #44  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
This perfectly-describes a common view of what the dems have been doing to President Trump ever since he won the election.
You're correct that common views are often dumb as shit and manufactured by those with vested interests, and I appreciate your pointing that out.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:42 PM
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Kudos to Pelosi for holding off those who wanted to start impeachment months ago. It's a serious undertaking, and she has been properly thoughtful and thorough before announcing this, which suggests to me that there may be another smoking gun or two besides the Ukraine issue that have convinced her to move forward.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:44 PM
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No, I mean the majority of the country that didn't vote for him and hate his orange guts.
But the majority of the country does not want him impeached.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 09-24-2019 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:54 PM
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Here's my concern with this situation:

If it seems like things finally might start turning on Trump, McConnel and all of the other Republicans who enabled him are probably going to try to cut a deal with Pelosi and the democratic leadership. "Okay, so we'll help you get rid of Trump, but leave us out of it."

And I fear that the democratic leadership would be stupid enough and derelict in their duties enough to take such a deal.

Trump is only one aspect of a larger problem - the radicalized Republican base and the corrupt Republican party that will do anything to enhance their own power, rig the system in their favor, and loot the country as hard as they can. Pretending that this is all just Trump, and if we get rid of him it all goes back to normal, would be a horrific mistake.

If Trump was the only problem, then a responsible Republican party would've already been on board with getting rid of him 200 scandals ago. Their corruption and complicity is what kept him protected no matter how badly he fucked up. If those same people remain in power after this, the situation gets worse.

The Republicans now know that their radicalized, hateful base will support absolutely anything Fox News tells them to support, anything that anyone who isn't part of their in-group thinks is bad, they're all for it. So the next Republican president isn't going to be a senile clown who can't speak a sentence or two - he's going to be a smooth operator who knows full well how to take advantage of his radicalized base, who can sound like a relatively normal politician while also using the dog whistles to throw the republican base a bone while much more effectively executing an evil agenda like coordinating foreign rigging of our election in their favor, continuing naked power grabs (like in North Carolina), domestic rigging and manipulation of elections (like in Georgia), stacking the courts with radical right wing judges, obstructing the democrats no matter what, like under Obama, etc.

It's not enough to just get rid of Trump. And in fact, getting rid of Trump alone might be the most dangerous of all options. There has to be a reckoning, a purge. We have to acknowledge that what has gone on in recent years is way outside the norm, and way outside of what can be acceptable from an American political party.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.
If America has any chance of regaining its stature and not devolving into a has been banana republic, we need to prosecute this administration for every crime it has committed. Let the republicans explain how they went along with it.
If republican voters want to keep this charade up, let's get it out in the open and call a racist a racist, a religious zealot a zealot, a criminal a criminal.
  #48  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:55 PM
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But the majority of the country does not want him impeached.
Yet.
  #49  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:55 PM
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This perfectly-describes a common view of what the dems have been doing to President Trump ever since he won the election.
You're so absurdly partisan that you're incapable of having an informed opinion on this issue.

The Republicans were desperate to run powerful investigations into minor stuff, and the democrats are loathe to do anything despite massive scandals on the part of the Trump administration. What you think is exactly the opposite of true.

Your thought goes as deep as "okay, so the Republicans were hostile to thinks that Clinton did, and democrats are hostile to the things Trump does, so it's all the same" and ignoring the fact that the Republicans launched every extremely partisan investigation into Clinton's minor corruptions as they could find, whereas the democrats are reluctant to launch any investigations into huge, gaping corruptions. Do you think the Benghazi hearings and the Mueller report were equally partisan?

Trump has committed at least 100 acts that if Obama had done them instead, there would be the loudest screeching you've ever heard out of any political party in addition to right wing violence and calls for violent revolution. In comparison, the cowardly democrats are massively under-responding to everything Trump does, pretending that it's just politics as usual. No one with a shred of objectivity could honestly think that these situations are equivalent - they are, in fact, almost exactly as opposite as you can get in politics.
  #50  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:00 PM
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...and the Trumpites will refuse to comply with those court orders much more quickly, too.

Why wouldn't they? Who would be enforcing any court orders? Why, William Barr's Justice Department. Guess how he's going to handle this....just guess.

I can see that Pelosi had to move. The activist base was trending toward giving Trump a complete pass while declaring Pelosi to be History's Greatest Villain.

But, what, exactly, is going to be different now? The witnesses are going to go on refusing to comply, and facing no consequences for that refusal. The American people aren't going to learn any more about Trump's misdeeds than they've learned up until now (which is to say that some fraction of them may hear a few rumors here or there, but nothing that will convince them that Trump should be removed).

I'm curious as to what you see those rules as being....?
I think Speaker Pelosi would have preferred to delay for another month or so if possible, in order to get the rulings from the various circuit courts/SCOTUS that are going to compel compliance with Congressional subpoenas and testimony. However, she also knows the value of striking while the iron is hot. The trade-off is worth it to catch both Trump and Barr off guard. They did not get the jump on the narrative this time.

I think we're a little ahead of her schedule, but not much.

Rulings in the case addressing subpoenas for Trump bank and tax records from Deutsche Bank and his tax advisors, Mazars, are expected in November. Deutsche Bank and Mazars have both indicated they will comply with the subpoenas already issued by the House if ordered by the courts. The documents are expected to reveal a long, extensive history of Trump fraud and money laundering on behalf of both Russia and Saudi Arabia.

Rulings in the case to compel testimony by Don McGahn are also expected before the end of the year. The final ruling on this case will have far reaching implications for all Trump witnesses. McGahn has said he will testify if ordered by the courts.

The defenses mounted by DOJ in these cases are weak, weak sauce. Barr & Co. know it. They're just playing for time. It's unlikely even Trump-appointed judges will rule in his favor, any more than the Trump-appointed whistle blower did, or the Trump-appointed inspector general who alerted the House about the whistle blower's complaint -- or even the Trump-appointed SCOTUS justices.

It's one thing to ignore "Demoncrats" in the House. It's another to ignore a SCOTUS ruling. Some Trump Republicans may be willing to do it, but not many.

Hope this helps.

And what Chefguy said.
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