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  #51  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by DrFidelius View Post
I thought "liberal elite" meant Jews.
Glad I wasn't drinking! I would have done a 'spit-take'!
  #52  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:46 AM
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I know conservatives love to talk about lifting yourself from your bootstraps but that's not monopolised by one politically aligned group of people.

Wealth and nepotism is not subject to one group of politically aligned group either.

Donald Trump is the product of inheriting wealth. His kids are even more notorious for living off a silver spoon. Just look at this picture:

https://media.guestofaguest.com/t_ca...ump-family.jpg

George W Bush campaigned in 2004 portraying John Kerry as a liberal elite despite Bush attending Yale like his father and benefitting off his name, and the fact Kerry enlisting to serve in Vietnam, getting the Purple Heart, ended up with conservatives doubting his record of service. Bush of course had doubts over his National Guard record.

Then you get conservatives like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh make a living by using that distinction. Neither completed college. There's no shame in dropping out of a course but the way they talk it's like the shame is in completing the course.

Meghan McCain appears on a hugely popular debate show as the conservative point of view, but her use of "my father" as a qualifier has become a running joke. Meanwhile someone else, who now may be living a cushy life, had to overcome several barriers to get to the same position.

You get conservatives who went to top class higher education institutes, like Ted Cruz at Harvard, frequently use the "liberal elite" tag to degrade opposition points of view as out of touch. What makes him - a conservative - in touch with the ordinary folks anymore than a liberal at Harvard?
I have always understood liberal elite to include wealthy liberals, liberals in academia, liberals in media/Hollywood.
  #53  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:47 AM
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Can you give us a hint what they are and why they are dangerous?
Every group that doesn't agree with the author's ideas are part of an "elite"-the Media Elite, the Liberal Elite, the Political Elite etc., and all those supposed crises that the "Elites" say they are trying to solve are artificial-created by the "Elites" to keep them in power. All attempts to defend, explain or deny are evidence that he is right, as is refusing to defend, explain or deny. This well isn't just poisoned-it is radioactive.
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:49 AM
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Some of the answers thus far, especially yesterday, were basically: "Conservatives have elites too." Sure they do, but that isn't exactly an answer to the thread/OP.
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Old 10-29-2019, 11:21 AM
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Some of the answers thus far, especially yesterday, were basically: "Conservatives have elites too." Sure they do, but that isn't exactly an answer to the thread/OP.
I think we can break it down to a more simple version.
The Elite are those who think they know better than the "others". How Republicans use the term is very simply the "liberal elite" that think they know better what to do with 'your money, your taxes, and your wealth'.

As Bone explained already, most of the recommendations by the Elite are all on subjective terms.

While you don't hear much run of the Elite being wrong about Global Warming, you might hear of them being wrong about how to best go about fixing it.
Pretty much all policies positions that have subjective terminology can be. It isn't that the underlying facts are wrong , it is only when trying to determine the best approach to fixing it that takes some of those liberal elite off rail, and go so far as to say "we know better than you" so just trust us.
  #56  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:23 PM
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Can you give us a hint what they are and why they are dangerous?
Yes. Will it be an answer you find satisfactory? Not a chance. But, in essence, naive or disingenuous power hungry or social approval seeking folk that are largely insulated from feedback from first order effects of the counterproductive yet superficially compassionate or noble policies they advocate. Anyways, there is a book you can read it should only take about 4-5 hrs.
  #57  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:31 PM
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But, in essence, naive or disingenuous power hungry or social approval seeking folk that are largely insulated from feedback from first order effects of the counterproductive yet superficially compassionate or noble policies they advocate.
So... would you (and that book you read) say that the so-called "liberal elites" are hypocrites?
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Old 10-29-2019, 12:45 PM
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So... would you (and that book you read) say that the so-called "liberal elites" are hypocrites?
Thatíd be one property. But the converse isnít true. Iíd also argue that the hypocrisy isnít the danger. The danger is the systematic insulation from and disregard of feedback from the consequences of the counterproductive policy.
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Old 10-29-2019, 12:50 PM
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Yes. Will it be an answer you find satisfactory? Not a chance. But, in essence, naive or disingenuous power hungry or social approval seeking folk that are largely insulated from feedback from first order effects of the counterproductive yet superficially compassionate or noble policies they advocate. Anyways, there is a book you can read it should only take about 4-5 hrs.
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Thatíd be one property. But the converse isnít true. Iíd also argue that the hypocrisy isnít the danger. The danger is the systematic insulation from and disregard of feedback from the consequences of the counterproductive policy.
Policies such as...?

(Here's your chance for a deep dive into nuance.)
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  #60  
Old 10-29-2019, 01:01 PM
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Policies such as...?

(Here's your chance for a deep dive into nuance.)
Whatís the point in this particular thread? It would just turn into a debate about that particular policy or set of policy when the question was about the term liberal elite.

But I canít resist and this isnít really a fault of liberal elite but itís an example of policy that sounds sort of good, if you donít give it much thought, but is dangerous and counterproductive. The policy is asset forfeiture. It is arguably unconstitutional and factually a factor in corruption in law enforcement and the judicial system.

One that is a fault of the liberal elite is the counterproductive support of unions for federal employees. Another is the support of rent control. Another is the support for minimum wage. Another is the support for quotas. Another is the support for social promotion and erosion of standards in schools. Ugh! I canít stop.

For a 4-5 hour read, the book I referenced is quite good. Even if you disagree with 90% of it getting an insight into how other people think is very valuable.
  #61  
Old 10-29-2019, 01:18 PM
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I'd call them "Democrat Elites" because they aren't liberal.
  #62  
Old 10-29-2019, 01:24 PM
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Whatís the point in this particular thread?
I think it's reasonable to want to know what I stand being accused of.

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It would just turn into a debate about that particular policy or set of policy when the question was about the term liberal elite.
Therein lies the substance. Are "liberal elites" rightly deserving of the label?

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The policy is asset forfeiture. It is arguably unconstitutional and factually a factor in corruption in law enforcement and the judicial system.

One that is a fault of the liberal elite is the counterproductive support of unions for federal employees. Another is the support of rent control. Another is the support for minimum wage. Another is the support for quotas. Another is the support for social promotion and erosion of standards in schools. Ugh! I canít stop.
Putting aside the pros/cons of the policies you listed, including whether they are correctly described and characterized, is it your position, as outlined in the book, that it is 'elitist' of liberals to promote what are commonly regarded as socialist (as opposed to free market capitalist) policies? If so, I can be persuaded that the policies are socialist, for better or worse. But what exactly makes them 'elitist'?

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For a 4-5 hour read, the book I referenced is quite good. Even if you disagree with 90% of it getting an insight into how other people think is very valuable.
Is it fair to question whether what people think about liberals is correct, or must it be accepted at face value without question?
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  #63  
Old 10-29-2019, 01:39 PM
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I think we can break it down to a more simple version.
The Elite are those who think they know better than the "others". How Republicans use the term is very simply the "liberal elite" that think they know better what to do with 'your money, your taxes, and your wealth'.
So, conservatives who want to take my money to pay for the military are members of the Liberal Elite also? Or does it only apply to things you don't like, like providing food and health care to the poor?

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While you don't hear much run of the Elite being wrong about Global Warming, you might hear of them being wrong about how to best go about fixing it.
Pretty much all policies positions that have subjective terminology can be. It isn't that the underlying facts are wrong , it is only when trying to determine the best approach to fixing it that takes some of those liberal elite off rail, and go so far as to say "we know better than you" so just trust us.
Really? You haven't heard Fearless Leader refer to global warming as a hoax?
There is hardly a single liberal position on the best way to reduce the problem, only that there is one. A debate about how to fix it starting with a shared that climate change is happening and that we are responsible for much of it would help. That wouldn't involve withdrawing from treaties.
  #64  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:00 PM
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I'm not sure how to respond to this because I'm not sure if it's relevant or a response to me.

For me, I view the term is accurate when describing ideas that are subjective in nature as if they are objective. More specifically, the assumption that one person knows what's best for the other, not recognizing the idea that each could have different evaluations of the relative utility of a given choice set.
So you do not agree that the "liberal elite" label is often used to disparage those who promote scientifically supported ideas and/or socially progressive values? You think it's strictly applied as a result of a difference in subjective choice evaluation, e.g. Bud v. Craft IPA?

This is in no way to suggest or accuse you of doing so.
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  #65  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:05 PM
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Ironically, this sounds exactly like the question/type being referred to by the OP.
I feel no shame in thinking of myself as elite. Well, elite-ish. Frankly, compared to the recent troglodyte tide, I'm practically divine.
  #66  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:31 PM
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I think it's reasonable to want to know what I stand being accused of.



Therein lies the substance. Are "liberal elites" rightly deserving of the label?



Putting aside the pros/cons of the policies you listed, including whether they are correctly described and characterized, is it your position, as outlined in the book, that it is 'elitist' of liberals to promote what are commonly regarded as socialist (as opposed to free market capitalist) policies? If so, I can be persuaded that the policies are socialist, for better or worse. But what exactly makes them 'elitist'?



Is it fair to question whether what people think about liberals is correct, or must it be accepted at face value without question?
I’m not sure if a word has ever been defined in a way that is universally accepted on these boards. You must have me confused with Sisyphus if you think I’m going to attempt that.

Last edited by octopus; 10-29-2019 at 02:32 PM.
  #67  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:45 PM
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Iím not sure if a word has ever been defined in a way that is universally accepted on these boards. You must have me confused with Sisyphus if you think Iím going to attempt that.
I'm not asking you for a mutually agreeable definition of the word "elite". I'm asking you what makes a liberal an elitist. However, your reply is dully noted as demurring from an opportunity of nuanced discussion.
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  #68  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:48 PM
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So you do not agree that the "liberal elite" label is often used to disparage those who promote scientifically supported ideas and/or socially progressive values? You think it's strictly applied as a result of a difference in subjective choice evaluation, e.g. Bud v. Craft IPA?

This is in no way to suggest or accuse you of doing so.
Obviously there's no ownership over rhetoric so I'm sure there are examples of varying usage, some more apt than others. This thread is a good example of that. That being said, something that is scientifically supported and/or socially progressive is not necessarily based on objective criteria and thus could easily fall within the construct of the phrase as I described.
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:56 PM
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I'm not asking you for a mutually agreeable definition of the word "elite". I'm asking you what makes a liberal an elitist. However, your reply is dully noted as demurring from an opportunity of nuanced discussion.
Iíve already answered the question though. Iím not going to reword it.
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:56 PM
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I'm thinking the liberals that are into gun control but live in gated communities and have personal armed security.

I'm thinking actors who talk about saving the planet but live in huge mansions and jet to climate control meetings on their own private planes.

I'm thinking California liberals who talk about supporting personal liberties and equality but fight to control access to beach areas where they own homes.
  #71  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:59 PM
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Obviously there's no ownership over rhetoric so I'm sure there are examples of varying usage, some more apt than others. This thread is a good example of that. That being said, something that is scientifically supported and/or socially progressive is not necessarily based on objective criteria and thus could easily fall within the construct of the phrase as I described.
Would it be fair to characterize the Trump Administration as being "liberal elites" for supporting the Criminal Justice Reform "First Sept Act"?
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  #72  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:02 PM
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The liberal elite are a boogeyman. They're coming for your guns, your religion, your children, your wife, your house, your job, and your pet hamster. You don't know what they're going to do with the hamster.

To the limited degree the term refers to actual humans, I'd say it refers to liberals who are so incredibly wealthy that they can afford to engage in the gratuitously wasteful pastime of entertaining ivory-tower academic liberal fantasies. You know, stuff like women's rights, colored people's rights, equal rights for gays and muslims and atheists. Having the absurd opinion that one can live without a gun clutched to one's bosom. Being so distanced from reality that you think that people aren't fully-souled humans starting from conception and ending at birth. Crazy shit like that.

If you are so absurdly wealthy that you can afford to espouse opinions like that, you are the liberal elite. Out of touch, detached from humanity, alien in nature, the enemy.
  #73  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:10 PM
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Real America knows who the Liberal Elite are.
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Old 10-29-2019, 03:11 PM
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Some random examples to fit the OP:


Mark Zuckerberg, a billionaire;
Rachel Maddow, who is paid $7 million a year;
Numerous NBA/NFL athletes;
Numerous Hollywood celebrities;
The Kennedys and numerous other political families/politicians;
Numerous other figures in the media.


If those are not reasonable examples of people who are both liberal and elite, I do not know what is.
  #75  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:13 PM
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I'm thinking the liberals that are into gun control but live in gated communities and have personal armed security.

I'm thinking actors who talk about saving the planet but live in huge mansions and jet to climate control meetings on their own private planes.

I'm thinking California liberals who talk about supporting personal liberties and equality but fight to control access to beach areas where they own homes.
What fraction of the population do you estimate these folks make up? Do you believe them to make up a large/majority proportion of liberals, specifically?
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  #76  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:14 PM
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Real America knows who the Liberal Elite are.
Draw a Venn Diagram.
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  #77  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:28 PM
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Some random examples to fit the OP:


Mark Zuckerberg, a billionaire;
Rachel Maddow, who is paid $7 million a year;
Numerous NBA/NFL athletes;
Numerous Hollywood celebrities;
The Kennedys and numerous other political families/politicians;
Numerous other figures in the media.


If those are not reasonable examples of people who are both liberal and elite, I do not know what is.
Sure, but the implication, again (which I think is starting to gain some traction), is that there is an implicit allegation of hypocrisy.

Which may or may not be justified for a given case.

But, merely labeling someone a hypocrite, even if true, does not make the views they are "hypocritically" espousing "wrong."

Which is why I think itís important for my liberal friends to understand that itís not just about being educated or wealthy, itís about the views espoused (the "liberal" part of "liberal elite"), with the achievement of wealth and education (the things commonly associated with "privilege") within the system being used to bolster an accusation of hypocrisy. As in "youíve obviously done well in this system that you say we ought to change, and change in a way that will make it harder for others to amass equivalent (to yours) sums of wealth, so clearly youíre a hypocrite."

Itís an ad hominem, but not in the way you think.
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Old 10-29-2019, 03:32 PM
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The danger is the systematic insulation from and disregard of feedback from the consequences of the counterproductive policy.
Do you think this is particular to liberals? How is this moral hazard any different from, say, conservatives who insist that dismantling the social safety net and rewarding the investor class will help 60-year-olds attain the noble goal of work through dignity? A consequence which is not only immaterial but completely invisible to them?

The reason we hear more about the liberal-elite stereotype is that conservative propagandists know full well that nothing engages conservatives like the merest suggestion that they might not be the specialest snowflakes in God's predestined world.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:07 PM
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This is my understanding as well. A key underlying sentiment that usually permeates the theme of knowing better than the other person is arrogance.
But what if you DO know better? Is that arrogance or simply an acceptance of fact? Must I keep my mouth shut to maintain peace lest I come off as arrogant?

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True, everyone made fun of Columbus, and everyone also made fun of Bozo the Clown.
but those who made fun of Columbus were right and those who made fun of Bozo were also ... right because he wasn't the least bit funny. Gee, could you have done the joke right and and said "laughed at" so my joke could work better?

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I thought "liberal elite" meant Jews.
So did I

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I'd call them "Democrat Elites" because they aren't liberal.
Oh, Jiminy Christmas! Is Liberal/Libertarian back to force us to use "liberal" as it was used 200 years ago?
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:15 PM
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but those who made fun of Columbus were right and those who made fun of Bozo were also ... right because he wasn't the least bit funny. Gee, could you have done the joke right and and said "laughed at" so my joke could work better?
I was going to say something similar, though in Bozo's case, he WANTS people to laugh at him...it's kind of his job. As for Columbus, it's funny that folks still use him. He absolutely deserved to be laughed at, as he was dead wrong and an idiot who got lucky. His calculations of the Earths diameter were laughably wrong, and had been proven multiple times they were wrong (and we are talking about 2000 years or so before, as well as by his contemporary...well, not peers, as he wasn't in their league) , and he never did admit that he didn't in fact find a way to India.

That he was a monster as well just rounds things out.
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  #81  
Old 10-29-2019, 04:15 PM
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From Wikipedia:
"It is commonly invoked pejoratively, with the implication that the people who claim to support the rights of the working class are themselves members of the ruling classes and are therefore out of touch with the real needs of the people they claim to support and protect."

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I'm thinking the liberals that are into gun control but live in gated communities and have personal armed security.

I'm thinking actors who talk about saving the planet but live in huge mansions and jet to climate control meetings on their own private planes.

I'm thinking California liberals who talk about supporting personal liberties and equality but fight to control access to beach areas where they own homes.
These are examples of the ones we notice.
To me, the 'Hollywood elite' is the worse subset of liberal elite. If anyone really needs examples, they will be provided.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:18 PM
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So, conservatives who want to take my money to pay for the military are members of the Liberal Elite also? Or does it only apply to things you don't like, like providing food and health care to the poor?



Really? You haven't heard Fearless Leader refer to global warming as a hoax?
There is hardly a single liberal position on the best way to reduce the problem, only that there is one. A debate about how to fix it starting with a shared that climate change is happening and that we are responsible for much of it would help. That wouldn't involve withdrawing from treaties.
I mean, I t would supposedly apply to those the same, if they ran on policies of taking your money and giving it to the US Armed forces (except you know the term Liberal would no longer apply, it'd be Conservatives Elites!). But it currently resides where those who think they know better where and how to spend someone else's money, money that they want to tax others for to spend in the correct way because those others don't know how to spend it correctly.

We can bring up Trump all day long, he's an idiot and definitely could be deserving of the label if he ran around telling others that he wanted to tax them so he could pay for whatever.

Whether it's right or wrong, or in between. We can't even agree there is such a thing?!

Climate change The FIX: Get everyone to agree to immediately eliminate 90% of all fossil fuel usage. EVERYONE.

Done.
  #83  
Old 10-29-2019, 04:19 PM
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Would it be fair to characterize the Trump Administration as being "liberal elites" for supporting the Criminal Justice Reform "First Sept Act"?
I'm not sure how that's germane. If you elaborate I could offer an opinion, though as a threshold matter I take it you don't consider the Trump Administration to be liberal, therefore the example doesn't seem on point.

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But what if you DO know better? Is that arrogance or simply an acceptance of fact? Must I keep my mouth shut to maintain peace lest I come off as arrogant?
You do you. Other people can judge as they see fit. If you're talking about the calculation of the arctangent of an angle, you could be objectively correct. If you're talking about the best way to order a person's affairs to maximize utility, an attitude of humility is better than one of arrogance.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:27 PM
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Do you think this is particular to liberals? How is this moral hazard any different from, say, conservatives who insist that dismantling the social safety net and rewarding the investor class will help 60-year-olds attain the noble goal of work through dignity? A consequence which is not only immaterial but completely invisible to them?

The reason we hear more about the liberal-elite stereotype is that conservative propagandists know full well that nothing engages conservatives like the merest suggestion that they might not be the specialest snowflakes in God's predestined world.
There are definitely problems with the economic right as well. Two of many being too much faith in the free market and the economic models that assume humans are rational. But thatís a different topic.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:29 PM
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Here is another video - recently Ilhan Omar said that "most Democrats....it's the one thing that everyone accuses us of, we think we're the smartest in the room, we are very policy-oriented, we care about the details, just today we were, you know, fighting about a lot of things that most people can't understand."
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:35 PM
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Here is another video - recently Ilhan Omar said that "most Democrats....it's the one thing that everyone accuses us of, we think we're the smartest in the room, we are very policy-oriented, we care about the details, just today we were, you know, fighting about a lot of things that most people can't understand."
Would you happen to have a link that wasn't clipped short by the "GOP WAR ROOM"? I would love to hear it in context.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:57 PM
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I'm not sure how that's germane. If you elaborate I could offer an opinion, though as a threshold matter I take it you don't consider the Trump Administration to be liberal, therefore the example doesn't seem on point.
First Steps Act was widely held as a liberal policy, though it did gain bipartisan support. Nobody called conservatives who supported it, "elites". That label seems to be primarily attached to liberals when they espouse values/policies that the conservative right generally opposes.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:03 PM
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First Steps Act was widely held as a liberal policy, though it did gain bipartisan support. Nobody called conservatives who supported it, "elites". That label seems to be primarily attached to liberals when they espouse values/policies that the conservative right generally opposes.
I acknowledge that's how you view the term and I'm sure people use it that way. I don't share that view and I explained how I construe the term. Based on that, the First Steps Act doesn't seem like it is fairly characterized as liberal elitism.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:05 PM
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There are definitely problems with the economic right as well. Two of many being too much faith in the free market and the economic models that assume humans are rational. But thatís a different topic.
See, when it's your side, it's "faith". When it's the enemy side, it's obvious virtue signaling and feigned compassion. This is the fundamental attribution error expressed in sociopolitical-theoretic terms.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:25 PM
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I mean, I t would supposedly apply to those the same, if they ran on policies of taking your money and giving it to the US Armed forces (except you know the term Liberal would no longer apply, it'd be Conservatives Elites!). But it currently resides where those who think they know better where and how to spend someone else's money, money that they want to tax others for to spend in the correct way because those others don't know how to spend it correctly.

We can bring up Trump all day long, he's an idiot and definitely could be deserving of the label if he ran around telling others that he wanted to tax them so he could pay for whatever.

Whether it's right or wrong, or in between. We can't even agree there is such a thing?!

Climate change The FIX: Get everyone to agree to immediately eliminate 90% of all fossil fuel usage. EVERYONE.

Done.
I'm glad to see that you believe in proposing solid no problem to implement solutions to our problems. Not.

Take up a collection to build a nuclear submarine, and see how much you get. The benefit to the country as a whole of that sub is great, but the benefit as perceived by each taxpayer (who will never even get to see the sub) is a lot less than the benefit of the money. And they will totally discount the cost of the Russians/Chinese/Grand Fenwickans rolling in.
You think Joe Putz who maybe takes two minutes to read about something the government wants to buy is better qualified than people with experience and training? If you think so, I suppose you diagnose yourself on the internet and don't bother to go to those medical elite guys. "I read about how some doctor misdiagnosed something or botched an operation, so they are all losers and I can do better." Is that your general position. How to spend our money is less important then our health, isn't it?
If you don't want to bring up Trump, how about the other climate change deniers, all on the right.
Your solution is about the same as saying we will cure obesity by having everyone eat only 10% of the food they do now. What could go wrong?
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:31 PM
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What fraction of the population do you estimate these folks make up? Do you believe them to make up a large/majority proportion of liberals, specifically?
I dont know what fraction but they put their voices to alot of causes and can show up to an event and bring in lots of money so they have a TON of clout. Way more than they deserve.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:36 PM
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I'm thinking the liberals that are into gun control but live in gated communities and have personal armed security.
Where is the gate in my community and where is my armed guard? Nowhere to be found. If I generalized this way about you you would no doubt be offended. So, I can just say you are full of shit.
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I'm thinking actors who talk about saving the planet but live in huge mansions and jet to climate control meetings on their own private planes.
I'll agree that right wing climate change deniers to jet to meetings to lobby for more pollution are much more honest.
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I'm thinking California liberals who talk about supporting personal liberties and equality but fight to control access to beach areas where they own homes.
Guess what. Liberal old California has a low preserving beach access. The guy who is trying to keep people from his beach is hated by liberals. Not that this has anything much to do with liberalism.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:37 PM
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I dont know what fraction but they put their voices to alot of causes and can show up to an event and bring in lots of money so they have a TON of clout. Way more than they deserve.
You think the same of the Kochs?
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Old 10-29-2019, 08:40 PM
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Some of the answers thus far, especially yesterday, were basically: "Conservatives have elites too." Sure they do, but that isn't exactly an answer to the thread/OP.
Concur.

It's so annoying when the question is about one side and someone can't help him or herself from posting, "both sides do it."
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:18 PM
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Some of the answers thus far, especially yesterday, were basically: "Conservatives have elites too." Sure they do, but that isn't exactly an answer to the thread/OP.
Did you actually read the OP?
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Originally Posted by Boycott
You get conservatives who went to top class higher education institutes, like Ted Cruz at Harvard, frequently use the "liberal elite" tag to degrade opposition points of view as out of touch. What makes him - a conservative - in touch with the ordinary folks anymore than a liberal at Harvard?
The real question, as alluded by the OP, is why are conservatives, who demonstrably are every bit as elitist as liberals, so disproportionately obsessed with the idea of liberal elitism (to the point of writing entire books about it, and insisting this thread is about the perfect definition of liberal elitism).
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Old 10-29-2019, 11:57 PM
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Just replace the term ďradical republicanĒ with ďliberal eliteĒ. The name has changed over the last 150 years, but same-same
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Old 10-30-2019, 01:04 AM
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I acknowledge that's how you view the term and I'm sure people use it that way. I don't share that view and I explained how I construe the term.
Yes, but when challenged on that definition, you fall back to it just being an opinion. Such an argument doesn't work in this context, since we're actually trying to figure out what the term means. In that context, it matters less how you use the term, and more how it is actually used in discourse.

My observation is that the term usually refers to the idea of liberals who, due to privilege, are out of touch with the concerns of the poor and working class. They offer solutions that are overly simplistic and miss the real world issues. They are too caught up in the idealism to make sure their ideas are practical.

This idea is, like most conservative insults, overused. It is definitely about playing up the divide between blue states and red states. It is used as a way to dismiss any liberal ideas as being impractical.

But, as someone who lives in a small town myself, I've definitely seen it--the person who is both liberal, but also elite in denying the needs of the working class. It's just far more rare than conservatives would have you think.

I would agree with those who say that upper class conservatives are more likely to be truly elite. The rich libertarian mindset that is inherently elitist, while rich liberalism isn't.

On the other hand, NIMBY liberals are definitely the liberal elite. They say they care about all these things, but, when it has to impact their lives, suddenly they become just as shitty as the conservative elite.

The thing about conservative bogeymen is that they do usually base the idea on something that actually exists. They just exaggerate it to the point where it often loses all meaning. But I don't think that "liberal elite" has quite gotten there yet.

That said, I would not use it. I would use the liberal terms. I'd simply refer to privilege and classism--when such is actually appropriate. And I note that, despite this being a liberal leaning message board, I've only encountered that a handful of times here.
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Old 10-30-2019, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Did you actually read the OP?

The real question, as alluded by the OP, is why are conservatives, who demonstrably are every bit as elitist as liberals, so disproportionately obsessed with the idea of liberal elitism (to the point of writing entire books about it, and insisting this thread is about the perfect definition of liberal elitism).
I do very much agree this is the actual underlying question of the OP, though. Those bringing up conservative elites are not distracting from the topic.

Sure, getting the definition of "liberal elite" is also important. As is understanding the underlying mindset. But the OP is definitely also about why conservatives only seem to care about the liberal elite, when the conservative elite seem to be more numerous and more influential on policy.

It would be very nice if we could decouple elitism and liberalism in the minds of voters. Those of us in rural America should embrace a lot of liberal ideas, since they actually are trying to help. I myself am liberal in part because of my rural status, and my belief that nothing in conservative policy actually seems to be a solution to rural problems.
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Old 10-30-2019, 01:42 AM
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why conservatives only seem to care about the liberal elite, when the conservative elite seem to be more numerous and more influential on policy.
I think it's just partisanship at work. People tend to be far more forgiving of flaws of someone that they perceive to be on the same side or team as they are on, than someone from the opposing side.

Another reason might be that conservative elites may be rich or powerful, yes, but they are perceived to have done so openly and in a non-contradictory way (i.e. "that conservative may be a fat-cat CEO, but hey, that's capitalism") whereas liberal elites who criticize income inequality, yet are millionaires or billionaires themselves, are perceived as hypocrites. It's the reason Bernie Sanders gets slammed for owning 3 houses and being a millionaire (which, actually, by presidential-candidate standards, is pretty modest,) but few if any conservatives have a problem with a rich Republican - "he never pretended to be anything other than who he was."
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Old 10-30-2019, 02:14 AM
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I think it's just partisanship at work. People tend to be far more forgiving of flaws of someone that they perceive to be on the same side or team as they are on, than someone from the opposing side.

Another reason might be that conservative elites may be rich or powerful, yes, but they are perceived to have done so openly and in a non-contradictory way (i.e. "that conservative may be a fat-cat CEO, but hey, that's capitalism") whereas liberal elites who criticize income inequality, yet are millionaires or billionaires themselves, are perceived as hypocrites. It's the reason Bernie Sanders gets slammed for owning 3 houses and being a millionaire (which, actually, by presidential-candidate standards, is pretty modest,) but few if any conservatives have a problem with a rich Republican - "he never pretended to be anything other than who he was."
For the most part the rich liberal uses his money to try to make life better for those without as much. Bill Gates is an example. The rich conservative uses his money to try to get more money.
Both sides donate to cultural activities, in that they are somewhat the same.
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