Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-08-2020, 07:44 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170

Gun Control At Work (Sorta) Just Happened To Myself


Well-

45 minutes ago (now an hour, I AM long-winded), there was a knock at my apartment door. I live in the eastern time zone, so like 6:45. It's dark. My son was alarmed at a tall stranger at the door. I'm obviously wondering "WTF?" as I wasn't expecting anyone other than my oldest son, but he was at work and has a key to let himself in anyway.

It was an ATF agent, and he was here to confiscate my Ruger .22 Mark IV I had bought in mid October. I have bought two other firearms from this same dealer (although this most recent purchase of the .22 was just a background check and a fee since I bought it online, and I also do not own the previous two firearms anymore) and it was always the same story: "Well, there's a delay. If I don't hear from them in five days I'll call you and you can come and pick up your gun." Five days, no call back from the FBI (or apparently the ATF), went and got my gun at the call. I hadn't even fired it yet, and had kitted it out with an expensive scope, a shiny silver muzzle brake and a ring-collar for the slide. Sigh. The whole purpose of this purchase was for my sons and I to go to the range or an acceptable outside place and have some fun and bond. I am a single Dad with an 18 year old senior and a 14 year old 8th grader. I felt it would be a good way for us to do something together outside of our cramped apartment in the dead of winter. And home defense in a pinch should that ever be necessary.

The agent and I had a discussion about my options which isn't really relevant here.

What is is the reason. In 2004, I was convicted of a misdemeanor battery charge against my then-girlfriend, now ex-wife for slapping her. She was literally attacking me, trying to gouge my eyes...eh...none of that matters. I slapped her, and admitted it to the two fine officers that showed up that night informing us that one of us would be going to jail. So that guy was me. I owned instead of blaming her for attacking me because my oldest son was a toddler in the other room at the time, I was doing a quick mental calculus of whom needed whom more at that moment, and my former step-daughter (some of you may recall my thread about her heroin addiction...if someone were gracious enough to find that, would like to re-read not-sober-me during a crisis, BTW) was present.

Her being present turned out to be the crux of the matter. That particular type of "domestic violence with child present" carries more weight than I guess your run-of-the-mill battery charge, which is what I thought I was convicted of. And probably mis-remembered. It was 16 years ago.

But...I WAS guilty of that. That DID happen. And then now so did this as a result. Thought it'd be an interesting share on the old Doperino. Your thoughts?
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #2  
Old 01-08-2020, 08:23 PM
River Hippie's Avatar
River Hippie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.E. Indiana, USA
Posts: 5,654
Get an air pistol or rifle. They are fun to shoot but no good for self defense.
  #3  
Old 01-08-2020, 08:56 PM
enipla is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 14,891
First. Relax.

I've a Mark IV, nice little pistol, so I know what you are speaking about. It's not worth any grief. None are.

You have kids that need you. Show them your strength by being able to remain cool and calm. Could be a very good lesson.
__________________
I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but I can see it from here.
  #4  
Old 01-08-2020, 08:57 PM
DorkVader's Avatar
DorkVader is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,500
That's too bad that it happened. I wonder why the previous purchases weren't flagged.

In some states, so I've heard anyway, depending on the nature of the conviction, it's possible to have full rights restored, with a little investment of $ of course. Is that a possibility for you, where you are? Not asking if it's likely, just if it's something that's possible.
__________________
The Toothfairy is not as forgiving as I am
Darth Desserticola
L. Californicus Sithae
  #5  
Old 01-08-2020, 09:04 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
I am relaxed. The agent was cool enough I guess (intimated that he didn't give a shit what happened to the ownership of the weapon as long as it wasn't ME), looked the part, etc. It was the LAST thing I expected at my front door, so you can imagine my surprise.
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #6  
Old 01-08-2020, 09:10 PM
Magiver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Dayton Ohio USA
Posts: 28,841
does the law allow you to go to the range with your kids and shoot other people's guns?
  #7  
Old 01-08-2020, 09:13 PM
Crafter_Man's Avatar
Crafter_Man is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,558
Sorry to hear this. So did the agent confiscate your gun? And is there a chance they could charge you with providing false information on the 4473?
  #8  
Old 01-08-2020, 09:16 PM
Isamu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Osaka
Posts: 6,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
I am relaxed. The agent was cool enough I guess (intimated that he didn't give a shit what happened to the ownership of the weapon as long as it wasn't ME), looked the part, etc. It was the LAST thing I expected at my front door, so you can imagine my surprise.
Can you give it to your 18 y/o son?
  #9  
Old 01-08-2020, 09:21 PM
enipla is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 14,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
I am relaxed. The agent was cool enough I guess (intimated that he didn't give a shit what happened to the ownership of the weapon as long as it wasn't ME), looked the part, etc. It was the LAST thing I expected at my front door, so you can imagine my surprise.
Cool. If ATF, FBI or any other important letters came to my door, I would also be VERY surprised. As in "Huh? Say again? Whatsit whom?". Stay cool, make a few phone calls tomorrow or the next day.
__________________
I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but I can see it from here.
  #10  
Old 01-08-2020, 10:51 PM
GaryM's Avatar
GaryM is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: St. Louis, MO 50mi. West
Posts: 5,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
does the law allow you to go to the range with your kids and shoot other people's guns?
IANAL, but it sounds as if the OP is a "prohibited person" and is not allowed to own or handle any cartridge firearms. However, I believe that in some states he may be able to possess black powder firearms as they are considered "antique" and not covered by the 1968 GCA.
  #11  
Old 01-08-2020, 10:58 PM
Lucas Jackson's Avatar
Lucas Jackson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,389
I offer this as a serious alternative, archery.
  #12  
Old 01-09-2020, 02:10 AM
Eva Luna is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Chicago-ish, IL
Posts: 10,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by DorkVader View Post
That's too bad that it happened. I wonder why the previous purchases weren't flagged.
The FBI database has been getting much more complete in recent years. Lots of jurisdictions have been submitting more records to the FBI, so even if prior searches were done, the old case may not have been in the database at the time.
  #13  
Old 01-09-2020, 04:07 AM
Senegoid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Sunny California
Posts: 15,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
What is is the reason. In 2004, I was convicted of a misdemeanor battery charge against my then-girlfriend, now ex-wife for slapping her. She was literally attacking me, trying to gouge my eyes...eh...none of that matters. I slapped her, and admitted it to the two fine officers that showed up that night informing us that one of us would be going to jail. So that guy was me. I owned instead of blaming her for attacking me because my oldest son was a toddler in the other room at the time, I was doing a quick mental calculus of whom needed whom more at that moment, and my former step-daughter (some of you may recall my thread about her heroin addiction...if someone were gracious enough to find that, would like to re-read not-sober-me during a crisis, BTW) was present.
And they say that we're not allowed to discuss Mens Rights on this board anymore.

Anyway, if they're not there to kick your door down, WTF are they doing showing up at 6:45 (either am or pm)?
__________________
=========================================
  #14  
Old 01-09-2020, 08:56 AM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rural Western PA
Posts: 33,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senegoid View Post
Anyway, if they're not there to kick your door down, WTF are they doing showing up at 6:45 (either am or pm)?
If we're not expecting someone, a doorbell/knock at 6:45 am/pm is going unanswered. I wonder what happens in that scenario.
  #15  
Old 01-09-2020, 09:27 AM
Crafter_Man's Avatar
Crafter_Man is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
What is is the reason. In 2004, I was convicted of a misdemeanor battery charge against my then-girlfriend, now ex-wife for slapping her. She was literally attacking me, trying to gouge my eyes...eh...none of that matters. I slapped her, and admitted it to the two fine officers that showed up that night informing us that one of us would be going to jail. So that guy was me. I owned instead of blaming her for attacking me because my oldest son was a toddler in the other room at the time, I was doing a quick mental calculus of whom needed whom more at that moment, and my former step-daughter (some of you may recall my thread about her heroin addiction...if someone were gracious enough to find that, would like to re-read not-sober-me during a crisis, BTW) was present.
Same thing happened to a friend of mine 12 years ago. Wife was beating him up... scratching him, kicking him, throwing things at him, etc. He finally punched her. She called the police. When the police arrive they interviewed them separately. She said she never touched him. He was honest and said he hit her. He was convicted of DV and can no longer touch a firearm.
  #16  
Old 01-09-2020, 02:55 PM
thelurkinghorror is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Venial Sin City
Posts: 14,082
You need to look into expungement or record sealing, depending on state. Not just for your second amendment rights but any other stuff that might show up on your record. There will likely be a financial investment, but it can be small court fees and you can do it yourself, or you may need to lawyer up, state and municipality again depending.
  #17  
Old 01-09-2020, 03:34 PM
Saint Cad is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N of Denver & S of Sanity
Posts: 13,773
Yet again never talk to police
  #18  
Old 01-09-2020, 04:23 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
This has been educational. The agent (still can't believe one showed up at my apartment) told me that I can go to the courthouse where I was convicted and try to get the charge amended, which he said would definitely take into account with any criminal behavior since then. And I have that life-saving/changing DUI in 2017, so I suspect my prospects are grim of ever buying a gun again.

And like another poster mentioned, I really wonder what would have happened if I refused to open the door, or just not answer it at all. When I did open it and I was made aware of what he was there for, he had informed me that he had tried to catch me a couple times earlier and that he felt showing up at almost 7PM was preferable (for me) to him banging on the door at 6AM.

Jesus, this sucks. I feel emasculated in some way I can't quite define.
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns

Last edited by FoieGrasIsEvil; 01-09-2020 at 04:24 PM.
  #19  
Old 01-09-2020, 04:28 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
That's what my friend said to me but I don't think that me refusing to acknowledge the presence of a federal agent while in possession of a technically illegal firearm that he was there to confiscate would have ended well for me.
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #20  
Old 01-09-2020, 05:18 PM
KneadToKnow is offline
Voodoo Adult (Slight Return)
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA
Posts: 26,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
That's what my friend said to me but I don't think that me refusing to acknowledge the presence of a federal agent while in possession of a technically illegal firearm that he was there to confiscate would have ended well for me.
I can't speak for Saint Cad, but I interpreted that advice as being directed at 2004 you, not yesterday you.
  #21  
Old 01-09-2020, 05:21 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by KneadToKnow View Post
I can't speak for Saint Cad, but I interpreted that advice as being directed at 2004 you, not yesterday you.
Ah. Whooshed myself I did. Ooops
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #22  
Old 01-09-2020, 05:32 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
does the law allow you to go to the range with your kids and shoot other people's guns?
I don't think legally I am supposed to handle any firearms at all. If getting a range card requires a background check, then I guess I can't. That makes me kinda angry. Fine, don't let me own one. But I can't just go to the range for an hour and shoot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crafter_Man View Post
Sorry to hear this. So did the agent confiscate your gun? And is there a chance they could charge you with providing false information on the 4473?
I doubt it. I sure hope not!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isamu View Post
Can you give it to your 18 y/o son?
No, he has to 21 to do anything in this country other than vote or kill or be killed for his nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
IANAL, but it sounds as if the OP is a "prohibited person" and is not allowed to own or handle any cartridge firearms. However, I believe that in some states he may be able to possess black powder firearms as they are considered "antique" and not covered by the 1968 GCA.
I guess that's what I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas Jackson View Post
I offer this as a serious alternative, archery.
I am looking into the legality of owning a crossbow now. Don't know much about them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crafter_Man View Post
Same thing happened to a friend of mine 12 years ago. Wife was beating him up... scratching him, kicking him, throwing things at him, etc. He finally punched her. She called the police. When the police arrive they interviewed them separately. She said she never touched him. He was honest and said he hit her. He was convicted of DV and can no longer touch a firearm.
Damn. That's exactly almost what's happened to me. I simply couldn't believe it.
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #23  
Old 01-09-2020, 06:13 PM
thelurkinghorror is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Venial Sin City
Posts: 14,082
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
No, he has to 21 to do anything in this country other than vote or kill or be killed for his nation.
Many (most?) states allow gifting to family members. However, as he seems to reside in your home, it is a bit more troublesome to avoid. At best case it would need to be locked up and only accessible to him.
Quote:
I am looking into the legality of owning a crossbow now. Don't know much about them.
Crossbows, bows, and air guns are not firearms. Blackpowder is not outright forbidden, but a bit more murky, there are instances where it's been challenged. In other words, not illegal, but could be a potential headache.
  #24  
Old 01-09-2020, 06:26 PM
Johnny L.A. is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: NoWA
Posts: 62,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelurkinghorror View Post
Many (most?) states allow gifting to family members. However, as he seems to reside in your home, it is a bit more troublesome to avoid. At best case it would need to be locked up and only accessible to him.
You need to be 21 to own a handgun.
  #25  
Old 01-09-2020, 06:27 PM
dropzone's Avatar
dropzone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bedlam
Posts: 30,312
A scope and muzzle brake on a .22 handgun? That's why I'm suspicious that this even happened. or I can't decide which.
  #26  
Old 01-09-2020, 06:39 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
A scope and muzzle brake on a .22 handgun? That's why I'm suspicious that this even happened. or I can't decide which.
It's a 22/45 that fires .22LR rounds. Why would putting a Sig Sauer Romeo scope on it matter? Those purchases were made seperately from the gun itself, and from different places online.
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #27  
Old 01-09-2020, 07:04 PM
thelurkinghorror is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Venial Sin City
Posts: 14,082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
You need to be 21 to own a handgun.
To purchase.
  #28  
Old 01-09-2020, 07:38 PM
Johnny L.A. is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: NoWA
Posts: 62,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelurkinghorror View Post
To purchase.
Ignorance fought.

Quote:
An individual between 18 and 21 years of age may acquire a handgun from an unlicensed individual who resides in the same State, provided the person acquiring the handgun is not otherwise prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A Federal firearms licensee may not, however, sell or deliver a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to a person the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under 21 years of age.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1)]

Last edited by Johnny L.A.; 01-09-2020 at 07:38 PM.
  #29  
Old 01-09-2020, 09:07 PM
dropzone's Avatar
dropzone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bedlam
Posts: 30,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
It's a 22/45 that fires .22LR rounds. Why would putting a Sig Sauer Romeo scope on it matter? Those purchases were made seperately from the gun itself, and from different places online.
I know what it is. I always wanted that gun. I just think that the scope is a bit and the muzzle brake is more than a bit silly on it. But it's your money.
  #30  
Old 01-09-2020, 10:10 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
I know what it is. I always wanted that gun. I just think that the scope is a bit and the muzzle brake is more than a bit silly on it. But it's your money.
There's a few color combos on that thing. I really wanted the burnt orange with the oval vent-holes, but couldn't find one as they were all sold and got the blue anodized one with the shiny silver bolt throughout so the chromed accessories accented that. And it WAS my money.
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #31  
Old 01-09-2020, 10:12 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
And that scope allows for hitting 5" dinner plates at 150 yards, which is why I bought it. And it makes a .22 look a little more legit than it is.
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #32  
Old 01-09-2020, 10:13 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
The one I wanted: https://www.google.com/search?q=ruge...4cU80uE_Z-wbM:

The one I got (temporarily): https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...tOI5-KdAsxrZM:
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #33  
Old 01-09-2020, 11:45 PM
dropzone's Avatar
dropzone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bedlam
Posts: 30,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
And that scope allows for hitting 5" dinner plates at 150 yards, which is why I bought it. And it makes a .22 look a little more legit than it is.
At 150 yards won't a plain old .22LR go through 3/4" plywood? Seems plenty legit to me, though I know most people think it's a popgun. And if you can hit those plates at that distance you're a better man than I am. I apologize for my snarky dismissal. But a muzzle brake?

FTR, I never did much shooting, and I have a psych ward stay that probably would cause the ATF to visit me if I bought anything that goes bang. I'm stuck with airguns.
  #34  
Old 01-10-2020, 12:19 AM
pkbites's Avatar
pkbites is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Majikal Land O' Cheeze!
Posts: 11,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
You need to be 21 to own a handgun.
Depends on the state. In my state an 18 year old can own a handgun. But per federal law cannot buy one from an FFL dealer. But if an unlicensed person sells or gives an 18/19/20 year old one, it is perfectly legal for them to have it. YMMV depending on the state.

If the OP cannot possess a firearm, and the agent found them in possession of a firearm, why aren't they being charged with a crime?
  #35  
Old 01-10-2020, 12:20 AM
Isamu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Osaka
Posts: 6,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
And that scope allows for hitting 5" dinner plates at 150 yards, which is why I bought it. And it makes a .22 look a little more legit than it is.
It's a red dot sight, right? They are quite useful. Also I like your choice of the mark IV, a very stylish design and a better disassembly system than the previous models.
  #36  
Old 01-10-2020, 12:42 AM
thelurkinghorror is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Venial Sin City
Posts: 14,082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
That's different, most states allow you to buy both long guns and handguns private party at 18, though some states are banning that now. I didn't even mention that because I don't know if it's legal in OP's state.

Referring specifically to this. You can gift your own child a long gun under 18, and a handgun in some (broad) circumstances. Most gun control proposals don't touch family exchanges.

Last edited by thelurkinghorror; 01-10-2020 at 12:42 AM.
  #37  
Old 01-10-2020, 10:06 AM
Johnny L.A. is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: NoWA
Posts: 62,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelurkinghorror View Post
That's different, most states allow you to buy both long guns and handguns private party at 18, though some states are banning that now. I didn't even mention that because I don't know if it's legal in OP's state.

Referring specifically to this. You can gift your own child a long gun under 18, and a handgun in some (broad) circumstances. Most gun control proposals don't touch family exchanges.
My ignorance fought.

I thought a person had to be 21 to own a handgun. The law to which I linked shows that I was incorrect. A person under 21 cannot buy a gun from a dealer, but under federal law s/he can obtain one from an unlicensed person.
  #38  
Old 01-10-2020, 01:03 PM
jnglmassiv is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Chicago's Northside
Posts: 3,279
Would you have been allowed to remove and keep the scope or other accessories?
  #39  
Old 01-10-2020, 02:11 PM
Saint Cad is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N of Denver & S of Sanity
Posts: 13,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
That's what my friend said to me but I don't think that me refusing to acknowledge the presence of a federal agent while in possession of a technically illegal firearm that he was there to confiscate would have ended well for me.
I was thinking more of the stories where the poster tells the cop yeah I hit her.
  #40  
Old 01-10-2020, 03:56 PM
Pantastic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
I was thinking more of the stories where the poster tells the cop yeah I hit her.
Yeah the real problem for a lot of people is that they voluntarily confessed to a significant crime to the cops, then were convicted of the crime they confessed to. I'm not really sure why people think confessing to a major crime like domestic violence is a good idea, or what they expect to happen after the confession other than arrest and (attempt at) conviction, but the fact that people have talked themselves into something with lifelong consequences is, like you said, a good example of what talking to the police can do for you.
  #41  
Old 01-10-2020, 06:03 PM
Crafter_Man's Avatar
Crafter_Man is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
Yeah the real problem for a lot of people is that they voluntarily confessed to a significant crime to the cops, then were convicted of the crime they confessed to.
My LEO friends say that most people "talk their way" into getting arrested & convicted. (They consider this a good thing as it makes their job easier.) They say it's rare when someone actually exercises their right to remain silent.
  #42  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:34 PM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,064
The OP is very likely a prohibited person. This prohibition is certainly supported by the left and implicitly supported by the right. You know when the NRA complains that we shouldn't be passing new gun laws when we don't enforce the old ones? They are talking about situations like the OP.

The OP could have been charged with at least two federal felonies each punishable by up to 10 years in prison: 1) possession of a firearm by a prohibited person, and 2) making a false statement on Form 4473: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download

The form asked if you had ever been convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence and you answered no. There are instructions there regarding what that means, and you also certified on the form that you read and understood the instructions.

All that being said, I think the prohibition is ridiculous and the BATFE (as is usual in my experience) took a reasonable method in enforcing the law without exposing you to additional penalties.

Last edited by UltraVires; 01-10-2020 at 09:35 PM.
  #43  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:42 PM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Luna View Post
The FBI database has been getting much more complete in recent years. Lots of jurisdictions have been submitting more records to the FBI, so even if prior searches were done, the old case may not have been in the database at the time.
In addition, in recent years the FBI goes behind the crime of conviction and identifies the victim of the crime and decides for themselves if he/she was a family or household member of the convicted person.

For example, it used to be (somewhat) standard in domestic violence cases to plead to simple battery instead of domestic battery in order to preserve the defendant's gun rights. No more. The FBI will get the original paperwork and see that the victim was a family or household member. This is likely why the OP wasn't denied at the gun shop and was allowed to take the gun home after a few days.

IMHO, this is of very dubious constitutionality as if a defendant pleads guilty to simple battery there has been no admission nor any finding by a judge or jury of one of the essential elements of the crime of domestic battery: the familial relationship of the victim.
  #44  
Old 01-11-2020, 02:05 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 6,709
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
The OP could have been charged with at least two federal felonies each punishable by up to 10 years in prison: 1) possession of a firearm by a prohibited person, and 2) making a false statement on Form 4473: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download
Maybe I'm being a gloomy pessimist here, but should this really be placed so definitively in the past tense just two days after the OP gave a confession and physical evidence to the agent?

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 01-11-2020 at 02:07 AM.
  #45  
Old 01-11-2020, 02:37 AM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnglmassiv View Post
Would you have been allowed to remove and keep the scope or other accessories?
Yes, but I was too rattled to rummage too deeply in my gun safe for the allen wrench I needed while he waited in the other room....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
Yeah the real problem for a lot of people is that they voluntarily confessed to a significant crime to the cops, then were convicted of the crime they confessed to. I'm not really sure why people think confessing to a major crime like domestic violence is a good idea, or what they expect to happen after the confession other than arrest and (attempt at) conviction, but the fact that people have talked themselves into something with lifelong consequences is, like you said, a good example of what talking to the police can do for you.
16 years ago, this is very much what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crafter_Man View Post
My LEO friends say that most people "talk their way" into getting arrested & convicted. (They consider this a good thing as it makes their job easier.) They say it's rare when someone actually exercises their right to remain silent.
I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
The OP is very likely a prohibited person. This prohibition is certainly supported by the left and implicitly supported by the right. You know when the NRA complains that we shouldn't be passing new gun laws when we don't enforce the old ones? They are talking about situations like the OP.

The OP could have been charged with at least two federal felonies each punishable by up to 10 years in prison: 1) possession of a firearm by a prohibited person, and 2) making a false statement on Form 4473: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download

The form asked if you had ever been convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence and you answered no. There are instructions there regarding what that means, and you also certified on the form that you read and understood the instructions.

All that being said, I think the prohibition is ridiculous and the BATFE (as is usual in my experience) took a reasonable method in enforcing the law without exposing you to additional penalties.
Thank you attorney/agent/whomever. I am hangdog/Droopy/Goofy grateful. Your advice is very sound. And has a good sprinkle of legalese in there.
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #46  
Old 01-11-2020, 02:55 AM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Maybe I'm being a gloomy pessimist here, but should this really be placed so definitively in the past tense just two days after the OP gave a confession and physical evidence to the agent?
Well, nobody can say for sure, but based upon my past experience in this area (which may not be indicative of future results) if they were looking to prosecute, they would have showed up with a search warrant and an arrest warrant instead of a knock on the door and a somewhat friendly conversation.

As I alluded to, for as much as the BATFE gets the reputation as being jackbooted thugs by the NRA, in my experience they are the most level headed and fair law enforcement agency out there. They seem to have a keen sense of who they need to come down on like a ton of bricks because the person is dangerous and to give a chastisement for violators like the OP, knowing that he will abide by the law in the future.
  #47  
Old 01-11-2020, 06:33 AM
Airman Doors, USAF is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 14,270
I’m sorry to hear that, but you did get warning.

I hope for your sake it ends there, because if it doesn’t this part of the story is going to be the best part of it.
  #48  
Old 01-11-2020, 09:39 AM
TokyoBayer's Avatar
TokyoBayer is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF View Post
I’m sorry to hear that, but you did get warning.

I hope for your sake it ends there, because if it doesn’t this part of the story is going to be the best part of it.
Oh!! The OP was warned about it, and apparently lied on a form about it?
  #49  
Old 01-11-2020, 09:58 AM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 18,170
Apparently they really only looked that deeply into it because of that "with child present" add-on to the charge, which I didn't remember even being a part of it. The law is stupid because it fails to allow for any context whatsoever.
__________________
Posting From Above The Browns
  #50  
Old 01-11-2020, 11:55 AM
Bill Door is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
Apparently they really only looked that deeply into it because of that "with child present" add-on to the charge, which I didn't remember even being a part of it. The law is stupid because it fails to allow for any context whatsoever.
There is such a strong correlation between domestic abusers and gun violence that I find it difficult to get all teary eyed over one being denied a handgun. Even if I accept your OP as you not being the aggressor in the fight between you and your girlfriend, you were either found guilty of spousal abuse or plead guilty to it. If you were found guilty you have to be treated as guilty, there's no ollly olly oxen free.

If you copped a plea to for the sake of expedience and economy, you admitted under oath to having committed the acts in the charge. The only conclusion I can make is that you're either a domestic abuser or a perjurer. Denying either one of those a handgun causes me no distress. Either you have a violent streak and poor impulse control or you're willing to lie under oath for the sake of expediency.

From my point of view that's exactly how gun control is supposed to work, it should keep guns away from dangerous people.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017