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  #51  
Old 02-16-2020, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
If someone's tipping decisions are based entirely on the waitstaff's performance, then you have a point. However, many people, me included when I'm in the US or other tipping countries, base their tipping decision on their overall restaurant experience. It's probably not your server's fault if the meal you order is slow to come out. It might be because the guy manning the dishwasher was out back sneaking a smoke when he should have been cleaning the knives. If there's going to be a reward system, which is what tipping is meant to be, then the entire delivery chain needs to benefit from that system and not just the person interacting with the customer.
That makes little sense to me. Tipping is usually understood to be for "service", the specific element of the experience that is controlled to a dominant extent (notwithstanding things out of their control) by customer-facing staff. If you're concerned with the "overall restaurant experience", well the business as a whole - including management, accountants, cleaning staff - is responsible for that. If you want to tip for that, it sounds like you're essentially in favor of abolishing tipping as we currently understand it; that all staff should all be paid a normal wage like any other business, and that if you add a "tip" you want that to go the business. Perhaps with a profit-sharing arrangement among all employees.
  #52  
Old 02-16-2020, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug K. View Post
I've never seen anyone make that claim. What I see is people claiming (or at least implying) that restaurants only pay $2.13 per hour period and if they don't get enough tips they make less than minimum wage.
Nobody ever quite claims that servers must make at least minimum wage for each hour- but it's not uncommon for people to use a single customer or hour or shift to argue that servers sometimes lose money or make less than minimum. For example, " if a customer only tips 5%, I'm losing money because I have to tip out 10%" or " I only got $30 in tips for an 8 hour shift on Tuesday, so was paid less than minimum wage for that shift" and ignoring the other customers/hours/shifts where the tips were 20% . And those people never address the question I always have - if it's actually costing you 5% out of your pocket for the whole pay period or you're making less than minimum wage over a pay period, why are you still a server rather than getting a higher-paying job at Target?

Last edited by doreen; 02-16-2020 at 08:38 AM.
  #53  
Old 02-16-2020, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by doreen View Post
Nobody ever quite claims that servers must make at least minimum wage for each hour- but it's not uncommon for people to use a single customer or hour or shift to argue that servers sometimes lose money or make less than minimum. For example, " if a customer only tips 5%, I'm losing money because I have to tip out 10%" or " I only got $30 in tips for an 8 hour shift on Tuesday, so was paid less than minimum wage for that shift" and ignoring the other customers/hours/shifts where the tips were 20% . And those people never address the question I always have - if it's actually costing you 5% out of your pocket for the whole pay period or you're making less than minimum wage over a pay period, why are you still a server rather than getting a higher-paying job at Target?
Oh boy. Man let me tell you what it is like to be poor. You will always take the waiting job (usually in addition to that sweet Target job) because you get to walk away from that 10 hour shift with 60 bucks in your hand. That 60 bucks gets you food and gas in your car so you can get back and forth to work or get the last part of your rent paid. If you rely on Target alone, you have to wait for two weeks to get that 80 bucks you made that shift.

I usually walked away with 60-80 bucks a night when I was waiting tables, and that is what I lived on. Sometimes I worked 10-14 hours a day, but I worked what we called seven-sevens, or 7 days week for 7 weeks straight. You never never took a day off if you could help it.
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  #54  
Old 02-16-2020, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
Oh boy. Man let me tell you what it is like to be poor. You will always take the waiting job (usually in addition to that sweet Target job) because you get to walk away from that 10 hour shift with 60 bucks in your hand. That 60 bucks gets you food and gas in your car so you can get back and forth to work or get the last part of your rent paid. If you rely on Target alone, you have to wait for two weeks to get that 80 bucks you made that shift.

I usually walked away with 60-80 bucks a night when I was waiting tables, and that is what I lived on. Sometimes I worked 10-14 hours a day, but I worked what we called seven-sevens, or 7 days week for 7 weeks straight. You never never took a day off if you could help it.
I understand that just fine- but if you are walking away with 60 bucks for a 10 hour shift you're earning $6 an hour in tips plus the $2.13 in direct wages which brings you over minimum. $80 for a 14 hour shift also brings you over Federal minimum wage. That's not the question that isn't addressed - which is an explanation of why you would keep the job if you made less than minimum for the entire pay-period or if you walked away from a week or two of shifts with not only no cash, but actually had to put cash out every night (you got 10% in tips each shift but had to tip out 14%). And the answer is of course, that while an individual customer may tip you less than you have to tip-out ( you tip out 14% and they leave a 10% tip) or tips for an individual shift may not bring you up to minimum wage (you got only $30 in tips for a 10 hour shift on Tuesday night) other customers and shifts over the course of the pay period make up for it. And it's therefore misleading to talk about the customer who tips only 10% and say "servers are paying part of your bill if you tip less than X%" without mentioning those who tip 20% but I see people do it all the time.

Last edited by doreen; 02-16-2020 at 11:30 AM.
  #55  
Old 02-16-2020, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
That makes little sense to me. Tipping is usually understood to be for "service", the specific element of the experience that is controlled to a dominant extent (notwithstanding things out of their control) by customer-facing staff. If you're concerned with the "overall restaurant experience", well the business as a whole - including management, accountants, cleaning staff - is responsible for that. If you want to tip for that, it sounds like you're essentially in favor of abolishing tipping as we currently understand it; that all staff should all be paid a normal wage like any other business, and that if you add a "tip" you want that to go the business. Perhaps with a profit-sharing arrangement among all employees.
Many decisions are made with imperfect knowledge, and also on an emotional basis. If your order is slow, you're probably being told that the kitchen is busy rather than that your order was mishandled. You're probably not getting better service from the attractive charismatic waitperson than from the average looking, slightly dull waitperson. But if you raise or lower the amount you tip based one the level of service you've received, unless you have some sort of expertise in restaurant service, you're tipping based on perception. That perception is going to be based on your overall restaurant experience, and not some impartial evaluation of the waitstaff. I think it would be stupid to evaluate the waitstaff based on the cleanliness of the restroom. I've also been around people who complained about a restaurant because they felt the restaurant was unhygienic, based on the condition of the restrooms. In a country with a tipping culture, do you think a typical diner will tip generously in a restaurant they believe to be unhygienic, even if they've objectively received good service?
  #56  
Old 02-16-2020, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post

1. Costs/prices in the food industry don't increase at the same rate as the standard of living increases. ...

2. You seem to be treating the custom changing as being a cause, rather than an effect. From what I've been told when this comes up, the custom changed because people thought 15% was no longer enough for these people to live off of. Any time you bring up tipping less, that is the argument people use.

I also note that this doesn't have to be factually true. It only has to seem true to those who tip. They merely have to perceive that 15% isn't enough. That said, I would guess that perception comes from them actually working those jobs or knowing people who did.

Tipping percentage increases seem to be the type of thing that would be started by the waitstaff.
1. Right, they've increased somewhat faster.
https://www.bls.gov/charts/consumer-...line-chart.htm

Set the things to compare as 'all items' and 'food away from home'. 'Food away from home' has gone up cumulatively around 20% points more than 'all items' in the last 20 yrs, if you expand the table and calculate from the monthly numbers.

2. I'm not saying what causes what besides pointing out lack of logic in the post I answered which said not raising the federal minimum wage explained it, 'does that answer your [the OP] question?' that poster wrote. In a word, no. For the reasons I pointed out, to reiterate:
-tips increase mainly with restaurant bills at a give tip % so a stationary nominal minimum wage just becomes less relevant as restaurant bills increase.
-the federal minimum wage applies to relatively little of the US by population, and specifically not places like NY area. And I believe if you scientifically polled you'd probably find subjective impression of customary tip % having increased is more true of places like NY (somebody else in the thread said yes also for Chicago) than hinterland type places.

And you are saying something different than the post I answered,
"the custom changed because people thought 15% was no longer enough"
Well obviously at some level people are paying more than 15% because they think 15% isn't enough (though importantly including that they'll be negatively viewed by people whose opinions they care about who think it's not enough). That's not exactly a profound analysis IMHO.

Also, how hard it is 'to live on 15%' depends again what the restaurant bill is. Consider it cross sectionally now rather than other time. There are always some restaurants in a given area a lot more expensive than others. That doesn't make it proportionally more expensive for the tip paid employees at the expensive places to live in the area.

Social conventions don't have to make sense. I think if one keeps that foremost in mind they are probably more likely to come up with a sensible answer to OP's question. Which again typical of social conventions is not likely to be a single simple answer unless a tautological one like 'people decided to pay more'.

Last edited by Corry El; 02-16-2020 at 03:18 PM.
  #57  
Old 02-16-2020, 03:45 PM
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I can't speak to the other issues, I tip fairly generously, when appropriate, because I can afford to.

On the other hand, when I go to a restaurant to order food to take away, and I pay up front (the norm, in my experience) I tip 10% or slightly more, for a couple of reasons: the kitchen staff work just as hard for my order as for any other order; the front person works slightly harder (bringing my order out to me in the waiting area) than they would for an eat-in customer; and most important, these people know in advance that I have done so, which may give me a slight edge towards quality of food and service. It may do nothing, but I was going to do it anyway.
  #58  
Old 02-16-2020, 07:20 PM
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Gratuity customs worldwide vary by time, place, and context. Tipping is unnecessary where employees are paid a living wage. Otherwise, exploit them workers! In some places (including Tr@mp resorts) a service charge which the staff never receives is added to bills. If staff are paid minimum wage, that's just management stealing tips.
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Old 02-17-2020, 10:13 AM
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I understand that just fine- but if you are walking away with 60 bucks for a 10 hour shift you're earning $6 an hour in tips plus the $2.13 in direct wages which brings you over minimum. $80 for a 14 hour shift also brings you over Federal minimum wage. That's not the question that isn't addressed - which is an explanation of why you would keep the job if you made less than minimum for the entire pay-period or if you walked away from a week or two of shifts with not only no cash, but actually had to put cash out every night (you got 10% in tips each shift but had to tip out 14%). And the answer is of course, that while an individual customer may tip you less than you have to tip-out ( you tip out 14% and they leave a 10% tip) or tips for an individual shift may not bring you up to minimum wage (you got only $30 in tips for a 10 hour shift on Tuesday night) other customers and shifts over the course of the pay period make up for it. And it's therefore misleading to talk about the customer who tips only 10% and say "servers are paying part of your bill if you tip less than X%" without mentioning those who tip 20% but I see people do it all the time.
What you don't have control over is if you get tables or not. The fact that I didn't owe (most days) working is because I only worked for places that didn't limit the tops (tables) I had. There were days I paid to go to work. Usually I got stuck on some large ass party that I was the only waiter that covered them (think of a 15 top graduation dinner for example.) Those people would tend to order alcohol from the bar in addition to the food they ordered, and since it was such a large party I wouldn't be given any other tops. If that party tipped me 10-12 percent (which the table thought was fine since it seemed like such a large number), yeah, I ended up paying to wait on that table. There were several days I paid to go to work being a server. When you go each and every day to work though without fail, you will be able to shake them if you are working at the right place.

And you don't get those 2.13 an hour checks, they come back as "VOID". The check you are paid is less than what the federal withholding is, because the employer still reports that they bring you to minimum wage even though they don't. Most servers end up with a tax bill, even if their tips aren't reported, because SS with holding and all of that isn't satisfied on the 2.13 an hour, even if they report your hours properly. Most restaurants my family and friends worked at don't report that you work more than 20 hours a week because they don't want to report the over time.

Most restaurants I worked at you didn't even "clock in" they just ignored the paycheck part of it all together. I don't think the last high end steak house I was a waiter at even had my social security number to report anything in the first place. I didn't work there too long, it was "mobby."

I was never stupid enough to try to wait tables at a corporate joint though, those waiters are the ones that really get screwed. They end up with 2 or thee table sections and that flip twice is all they get for the night. If half of their customers tip 10%, they don't make anything for the night.

I used to work at least half of the dining room. I had seniority over most of the waitstaff usually in places that I worked, so I never got stuck with a bunch of "for-meians" ("For me, water please.") When you got a "for-meian" you got a 10 percent or less tip. I never worked Sunday because of the church crowd, they tip 10 or less as well. Now the new waiters that worked with me without seniority? They usually had at least one night a week when they broke even or owed a little. When I was the head waiter that had to check them out I would try to keep an eye on who was behind and try to throw them a good table so they could break even, but that wasn't my job it was something I did because I was significantly older than some of these newbies and I didn't want them screwed.

I know its a hard concept, but try to remember that restaurants don't do the books right, they don't pay their employees (front of house or back) and they don't follow the law. When you go out to eat, assume that the restaurant is owned by the mob or something, and your waiter's tip between 0 and 10% evaporates, so they are only working with at least 10% and over.

I don't fault anyone for not knowing how this really works if they never worked for a restaurant paying their bills and feeding a family off if it. Did you ever wonder why people that work for tips, tip so freaking hard? They know what the deal is. Consider them the experts and follow their lead.


Side note, did an informal poll with the people that have worked the restaurant slog around here, which includes my wife. About 40% of the non corporate type places were mob run according to the employees.
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  #60  
Old 02-17-2020, 10:24 AM
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So as someone who has never waited tables, I am appalled by all of this.

Why wouldn't it just be better to pay servers as you would for any other job? Leaving your salary up to the discretion of the general public so that you boss can safely cook the books seems like a terrible, terrible idea. Why does the government, for instance, allow this? It beggars belief that tips are getting reported and taxed accurately by servers and restaurant owners.
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Old 02-17-2020, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Ynnad View Post
Then why are people who work in casinos allowed to accept tips?
Probably because cash isn't actually used at a fair number of casinos? You put money on a card, and use that card to gamble. If the server at a casino was the one taking your cash and putting it into the machine, yeah, there'd probably be an issue with tipping them.

Retail is a HUGE industry that also doesn't really take tips. I've seen a jar from time to time, but never had anything prompted on a card reader or been asked directly about tipping. And honestly, the jar is kind of useful if I use cash and get back change I really don't want.
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Old 02-17-2020, 10:53 AM
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I don't think you understand what I'm referring to and I'm going to try one more time. It seems that you may possibly think I was specifically talking about you and I wasn't.
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Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
The fact that I didn't owe (most days) working is because I only worked for places that didn't limit the tops (tables) I had. There were days I paid to go to work. Usually I got stuck on some large ass party that I was the only waiter that covered them (think of a 15 top graduation dinner for example.) Those people would tend to order alcohol from the bar in addition to the food they ordered, and since it was such a large party I wouldn't be given any other tops. If that party tipped me 10-12 percent (which the table thought was fine since it seemed like such a large number), yeah, I ended up paying to wait on that table. There were several days I paid to go to work being a server. When you go each and every day to work though without fail, you will be able to shake them if you are working at the right place.
See here, where you talk about that you didn't owe most days and you will be able to shake the "several" days you paid to go to work by going to work every day - that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people (not you) who go on about "poor" tippers costing them money while simultaneously being unwilling to acknowledge that in general, that is made up for by generous tippers at other tables/other shifts or else no sensible person would keep the job.
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Old 02-17-2020, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Kovitlac View Post
Probably because cash isn't actually used at a fair number of casinos? You put money on a card, and use that card to gamble.
(bolding mine)

Where are these casinos? I've to casinos large and small all over the U.S. and have never seen such a system.
  #64  
Old 02-17-2020, 10:57 AM
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So as someone who has never waited tables, I am appalled by all of this.

Why wouldn't it just be better to pay servers as you would for any other job? Leaving your salary up to the discretion of the general public so that you boss can safely cook the books seems like a terrible, terrible idea. Why does the government, for instance, allow this? It beggars belief that tips are getting reported and taxed accurately by servers and restaurant owners.
Its because there is cash at the end of the day for most restaurants. I worked two places that held your tips and put them on a check two weeks, but that was because the restaurant didn't have the operating cash to pay the tips at the end of the shift.

Here is another way of looking at it. Say that I was a waiter because it was paying my bills, but it sucked so bad I wanted to leave. So I took a job at "Target" (it was used prior as an example.) When I had an ex working at Target, she got paid each two weeks. There in lies the problem.

I'm fed up and need to leave "for a real job."

I am going to trade CASH NOW for a paycheck, and that might be well and good, but I start on a Tuesday at Target. I am just now at the end of their pay cycle, so I am going to have to wait two weeks for a check that has one or two days of work on it, then wait another two weeks for a real check. And man, its taxed to shit, so I am only taking 72 percent of that check. In those 4 weeks of waiting on a normal paycheck so I can start a new budget, I had rent due, I had to put gas in the car to get back and forth to work, I had the electric bill....

So now I have a paycheck job, but I am homeless. I don't make enough to save enough for the 3 months up front rent that is required for a new place. I moved back in with my parents. I realized that I left a job that I averaged 50 dollars a day on, working each day of the week, for a job that pays less after taxes are taken out. I now work reporting an income that disqualifies me for medicaid and any other assistance, so my insurance is gone. I no longer have the ability to work each day when I need money, so I have now this Target job that isn't getting me back into housing, and I am also back at the restaurant working for cash so I can get back and forth going to "Target".

Does this sound strangely specific? This is because I have seen this waiting tables happen time and time again. To roommates I had, to family I had, to my mom, to waiters that worked above and below me, a lot of people in my orbit. A young person is ready to "leave the wait life" or whatever they ware saying, and then leave, fall on their ass, and then are working the real job and the waiting job again and still do it. They end up leaving the real job and going back to waiting tables, but this time, at two different restaurants, just to catch up.

Restaurant jobs can save the day, but they get you stuck as well. You make enough to survive if you have housing already. You work all the time on a weird schedule so you only know other restaurant workers.

Its hard to describe to people that have never done it. I would recommend that most people watch the movie Waiting. Its funny and gross and, quite honestly, an accurate representation of what its like. Even the "from-under" cheese and "floor spice" and creepy manager hitting on children. Its pretty damn accurate.
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  #65  
Old 02-17-2020, 11:09 AM
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I don't think you understand what I'm referring to and I'm going to try one more time. It seems that you may possibly think I was specifically talking about you and I wasn't. See here, where you talk about that you didn't owe most days and you will be able to shake the "several" days you paid to go to work by going to work every day - that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people (not you) who go on about "poor" tippers costing them money while simultaneously being unwilling to acknowledge that in general, that is made up for by generous tippers at other tables/other shifts or else no sensible person would keep the job.
I don't get what you are saying. I am considering each table its own thing. If you stiff me with a 10% tip, I paid to wait ON YOU. Does that make sense? It doesn't matter if I had two other tables full of decent people that made me cash positive at the end of the day.

So you are saying its okay to fuck your waiter as long as they have other tables, because surely not everyone is going to fuck your waiter like you did? That can't be what you are saying, right?

When you talk to a server, they aren't going to tell you what they made "that week" its what they made "that shift" or "that day". Each day is a new day when you never get a day off. Hell, if you were like me, you worked doubles each day, which means you were at the restaurant at 9:30 to open it at 11, and then got cut at like 5, back up there at 6:15, worked until 11:30 or midnight, and went back the next day. And do that every single day of the week. Thats what my wife did, and thats what my best friend did (and still does to this day after a couple rounds of a "real job".)

That 60-80 bucks a day would have been more like 100-120 if I didn't get stuck with 10 percent folks (or god, the church folks, which tip the tax rate at 8.25 because they tithe 10 percent and don't think you are worth more than God.)
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Old 02-17-2020, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Kovitlac View Post
Probably because cash isn't actually used at a fair number of casinos? You put money on a card, and use that card to gamble. If the server at a casino was the one taking your cash and putting it into the machine, yeah, there'd probably be an issue with tipping them.
.
I spend a lot of time in casinos. Ranging from local tribal places to Las Vegas and places around the world. In my experience, there is always lots and lots of cash at a casino. People put cash into slots, and people definitely put cash on the table at blackjack, roulette, craps, etc, and get chips in exchange. Generally, tips are made with chips. Everything is being watched, of course, by pit bosses and security cameras.
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Old 02-17-2020, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
I can't speak to the other issues, I tip fairly generously, when appropriate, because I can afford to.

On the other hand, when I go to a restaurant to order food to take away, and I pay up front (the norm, in my experience) I tip 10% or slightly more, for a couple of reasons: the kitchen staff work just as hard for my order as for any other order; the front person works slightly harder (bringing my order out to me in the waiting area) than they would for an eat-in customer; and most important, these people know in advance that I have done so, which may give me a slight edge towards quality of food and service. It may do nothing, but I was going to do it anyway.
I agree with all of this (except the part I underlined)

I think good servers treat everyone well. Anyone who would give a slight edge to a good tipper, probably isn't a good server. In any event, I don't expect any better food or service because I'm a generous tipper.

Mostly, I can afford it. I like eating at restaurants and I know the servers have a crappy job. 20 to 25% on the gross is just not a big deal to me and I know it probably is to the server.

[I'm not defending the tipping culture, but just acknowledging that in the U.S. it's what we have. If the servers were paid well and there was no tipping, that would be fine with me.]
  #68  
Old 02-17-2020, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
I don't get what you are saying. I am considering each table its own thing. If you stiff me with a 10% tip, I paid to wait ON YOU. Does that make sense? It doesn't matter if I had two other tables full of decent people that made me cash positive at the end of the day.
It doesn't matter in terms of whether it's OK for them to stiff you. It does matter in the sense of how much you earned over the course of a day or a pay period - you wouldn't keep the job if you worked 80 hours and only made $300 total, right?

Quote:
So you are saying its okay to fuck your waiter as long as they have other tables, because surely not everyone is going to fuck your waiter like you did? That can't be what you are saying, right?
It's not at all - I'm not even saying that the 10% table didn't screw you. If you look back to where this started it was something like
( I didn't go back to see who the other posters were , or to quote exactly ):


Poster A - Some people think the legal requirement is that servers earn at least minimum wage for each hour, not as an average over a pay period.

Poster B - I've never seen that claim.

Me - Nobody ever quite claims that servers must make at least minimum wage for each hour- but it's not uncommon for people to use a single customer or hour or shift to argue that servers sometimes lose money or make less than minimum.
  #69  
Old 02-17-2020, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
I spend a lot of time in casinos. Ranging from local tribal places to Las Vegas and places around the world. In my experience, there is always lots and lots of cash at a casino. People put cash into slots, and people definitely put cash on the table at blackjack, roulette, craps, etc, and get chips in exchange. Generally, tips are made with chips. Everything is being watched, of course, by pit bosses and security cameras.
Yeah, the only "money on a card" situations I can think of are

1) In the days when slots used coins, bus trips used to give you a voucher for free play that you would turn in to get cash. Now, instead of cash some places give you a voucher and other places load the free play on a players card.

2) Slots don't dispense coins anymore - when you cash out, you typically get a voucher that can be inserted into another machine. I suppose there might be an occasional casino that puts the cashout on your card instead of printing a voucher.

3) On a cruise ship, you may be able to charge casino play to your onboard account by using your keycard.


But aside from those situations, you use cash in slots and to buy tips at table games. Dealers are tipped in chips, and they usually do something like tap the tip box with the chip to make it obvious to those watching that it's a tip - they don't just put it in their pocket.
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Old 02-17-2020, 12:10 PM
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It doesn't matter in terms of whether it's OK for them to stiff you. It does matter in the sense of how much you earned over the course of a day or a pay period - you wouldn't keep the job if you worked 80 hours and only made $300 total, right?

It's not at all - I'm not even saying that the 10% table didn't screw you. If you look back to where this started it was something like
( I didn't go back to see who the other posters were , or to quote exactly ):


Poster A - Some people think the legal requirement is that servers earn at least minimum wage for each hour, not as an average over a pay period.

Poster B - I've never seen that claim.

Me - Nobody ever quite claims that servers must make at least minimum wage for each hour- but it's not uncommon for people to use a single customer or hour or shift to argue that servers sometimes lose money or make less than minimum.

I think maybe the thing to consider here is that I didn't get screwed for the day because I had seniority to make sure I didn't. When you start out, generally they put you on Sundays and other days and limit how long you are there. When you are a new waiter, you may only get two or three tables a night because you are the first one to be cut. Waiters don't work normal schedules, they work until the shift manager "cuts" them, which means you don't get any more tables. Waiters with bills never want to be cut, waiters that have paid their bills and have money want to the the first cut.

I can think off hand I probably got shafted and owed at the end of the day probably about 15 times, but I walked in being an older white guy with experience, so I never started at the bottom of any restaurant I worked at. The newbies generally get screwed. So do women of color, not under my watch, but in general, they get the worst tables and cut first.

It is very common to put in at least two months making far less than minimum wage before you can outlast the other waitstaff and get good seniority. Turnover is super high because a lot of people burn out. I would say from my experience only about 25% of people stay in the industry any amount of time.

Funny side story that might be relevant to the life of the waiter, whom this thread is about tipping properly:

I was a shift manager, got bumped up from being a waiter at a mid range Texas steakhouse. The point of sale system was glitchy there, and when you went to split a ticket after the order was put in to make the bill right for each group of people at one table, it would "clone" the drinks that were ordered. I got fired because I voided the errant Sprite so that the waiter wouldn't have to buy the phantom beverage. The phantom sprite was duplicated only on billing and was never actually in existence, but since I didn't want the waiter to have to buy it, which was standard practice at this place, I voided it off of the bill. I also had full authority to void anything that needed to be voided as the shift manager.

Yeah I got fired for that. The 18 year old kid only made 3 bucks that night waiting tables because that was the only one he had before the cuts came as the restaurant was slow that night. The phantom sprite he would have had to buy cost 2.75 before tax, and I didn't want that to happen. He got a 12 percent tip or something, it was right below 15, and that steakhouse only had a 9% tip out for non-alcohol sales.

The point of sale system was made by Aloha, which is a very common POS for the restaurant and bar industry. It was common at a lot of places that random shit would clone across both tickets if you split on ticket.

I think the answer to the thread question is "tip at least 20% in the US, and a little more if you order beer or booze that comes from a bar."
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Old 02-17-2020, 01:09 PM
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I don't get what you are saying. I am considering each table its own thing. If you stiff me with a 10% tip, I paid to wait ON YOU. Does that make sense? It doesn't matter if I had two other tables full of decent people that made me cash positive at the end of the day.
No. Don't put that on the diner. The mathematics and culture behind this are both arcane and not at all transparent. If you need the diner to come up with a certain amount of money, that needs to be in the bill. If a tip is optional, it needs to be optional. Don't put me in the middle of your stupid industry games.

Disclosure: I always tip 15% except where I'm a regular, where I tip 20%. Post-tax, rounding up in both cases. I just hate being held responsible for something I don't understand.
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Old 02-17-2020, 01:30 PM
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I can't speak to the other issues, I tip fairly generously, when appropriate, because I can afford to.
This. I've been on the other side of the equation, too. If a person is doing me a service, that's something I don't have to do, like cook and clean up. So I tip the waitstaff generously, knowing that they'll usually kick some of that back to the busboys and such. Good bartenders are also amply rewarded. Waitstaff have long memories. Even if we only show up at a place every 90 days or so, we are remembered and get great service because we tip well and generally aren't assholes.
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Old 02-17-2020, 02:27 PM
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No. Don't put that on the diner. The mathematics and culture behind this are both arcane and not at all transparent. If you need the diner to come up with a certain amount of money, that needs to be in the bill. If a tip is optional, it needs to be optional. Don't put me in the middle of your stupid industry games.

Disclosure: I always tip 15% except where I'm a regular, where I tip 20%. Post-tax, rounding up in both cases. I just hate being held responsible for something I don't understand.
The waiter didn't put that on the diner, so don't blame them. Don't blame me for telling you how it works. The owner/s of the restaurant deserves your ire and blame, and they keep it that way due to the lobbying efforts of organizations like The National Restaurant Association.

It sucks to say, but the only way you don't participate in it is not going out to places to eat, or go to counter service type places or what not where the employees don't get tipped.

I had a young woman living with my wife and I while we were in Oregon recently, and she did really well there, because she got paid full state minimum wage plus her tips. The told me in Oregon she was still getting 20% like she did when she was in Texas. She was shocked she actually got a paycheck as well. I never worked in a state that didn't do 2.13 in the industry so I can only speak of the states where its 2.13/hr.
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Old 02-17-2020, 02:43 PM
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The waiter didn't put that on the diner, so don't blame them. Don't blame me for telling you how it works. The owner/s of the restaurant deserves your ire and blame, and they keep it that way due to the lobbying efforts of organizations like The National Restaurant Association.

It sucks to say, but the only way you don't participate in it is not going out to places to eat, or go to counter service type places or what not where the employees don't get tipped.
I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. If there's a fundamental problem here that requires better government regulation, I'm happy to listen to the issues, write to my Congressman, vote accordingly, etc. But it's not the diner's responsibility to solve problems like this on a transaction-by-transaction basis, and attempting to do so may actually enable the dysfunctional system. Similarly, I'll support the idea of helping homeless people through organized taxpayer-funded social programs, but I won't try to compensate for the lack of such programs by handing out banknotes randomly to panhandlers.
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Old 02-17-2020, 02:43 PM
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The waiter didn't put that on the diner, so don't blame them. Don't blame me for telling you how it works. The owner/s of the restaurant deserves your ire and blame, and they keep it that way due to the lobbying efforts of organizations like The National Restaurant Association.

It sucks to say, but the only way you don't participate in it is not going out to places to eat, or go to counter service type places or what not where the employees don't get tipped.

I had a young woman living with my wife and I while we were in Oregon recently, and she did really well there, because she got paid full state minimum wage plus her tips. The told me in Oregon she was still getting 20% like she did when she was in Texas. She was shocked she actually got a paycheck as well. I never worked in a state that didn't do 2.13 in the industry so I can only speak of the states where its 2.13/hr.
I'm not blaming the waiter for the system. I'm not denying that I participate in the system by going out to eat. But it is simply unfair to drag diners into the middle of it when the information needed to make a good decision is not available.

What we need to know is:

1) Will the server be paid fairly if we don't tip?
2) What percentage tip brings it up to a fair wage?
3) If we do tip, who actually gets it? Server, server + other staff, server + staff + owner, or what?
4) Are the server and the restaurant all declaring and paying the appropriate taxes?

All of that is going to vary from person to person, and place to place. It's not possible to keep track of it, and nobody is going to be honest about it, anyway. So I refuse to be held hostage to it. If your employer is not paying you enough, sort it out. Unionize or something. Don't just accept exploitation from your bosses, be complicit in hiding it from the patrons, and then tell me that I, the customer, am the problem.
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Old 02-17-2020, 03:13 PM
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Another Tipping Thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
The waiter didn't put that on the diner, so don't blame them. Don't blame me for telling you how it works. The owner/s of the restaurant deserves your ire and blame, and they keep it that way due to the lobbying efforts of organizations like The National Restaurant Association.



It sucks to say, but the only way you don't participate in it is not going out to places to eat, or go to counter service type places or what not where the employees don't get tipped.


Look at any discussion of tipping, or restaurants that have eliminated it and you will see people who receive tips in favor of keeping the current system , for reasons ranging from the belief that they earn more with tips than they would with an hourly wage to the difficulty of evading taxes if all of their earnings were reported. You may not favor it, but it’s not just the restaurant owners.






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Last edited by doreen; 02-17-2020 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 02-17-2020, 03:16 PM
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The waiter didn't put that on the diner, so don't blame them. Don't blame me for telling you how it works. The owner/s of the restaurant deserves your ire and blame, and they keep it that way due to the lobbying efforts of organizations like The National Restaurant Association.

It sucks to say, but the only way you don't participate in it is not going out to places to eat, or go to counter service type places or what not where the employees don't get tipped.

I had a young woman living with my wife and I while we were in Oregon recently, and she did really well there, because she got paid full state minimum wage plus her tips. The told me in Oregon she was still getting 20% like she did when she was in Texas. She was shocked she actually got a paycheck as well. I never worked in a state that didn't do 2.13 in the industry so I can only speak of the states where its 2.13/hr.
It's not even just a state thing, but an individual restaurant thing. My brother is the manager at a bar/restaurant that pays minimum wage plus tips to employees. He worked two jobs in Nashville that he did enjoy, but came back to IA because the offer he got was so much better (he makes manager pay now, but when he worked the same place previously as just a bartender, he made min wage + tips). He's also periodically handed his own tips (he isn't just in the back - he's always working out front just like the others) back into the pool for the other employees.

But the customer can't always tell which places do this and which don't, nor should we be expected to know. If your pay is horrible, do what you can to find another job (hell, Walmart starts you out at more). If certain restaurants are having a hard time employing enough waitstaff, maybe they'll start to reconsider their business practices.
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Old 02-17-2020, 04:49 PM
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I can tell you a reason why a lot of wait staff don't like it when the restaurant changes over from tips to a non-tip situation. Its not the loss of ability to fraud the government out of declaring income. The waiter still gets cut the same when the restaurant slows down. They make even less that way since they didn't get tips, the restaurant wants to shed labor as fast as they can each day. No chance of a good table if you get cut early. You get cut way faster if you are getting paid 7.25 or whatever wage is instead of 2.13. At 2.13, you are essentially free labor to the restaurant and you tend to get held around longer in case it gets busier later. Remember, waiters don't work 8-5 most of the time. They have a start time and work until they get cut. I have been cut immediately walking into work, never taking a table at all, just doing the side work that gets the restaurant ready for the shift. That is free labor to the restaurant. With the loss of potential tip income, that sweet Target job becomes equivalent to the waiting job and people will take guaranteed hours over "maybe" hours. Its gone from tables to hours.

The whole situation is fucked up to be honest, and I am not sure that restaurants are prepared to take a hit on labor to bring the tipping issue away. It can be crazy if you think about it. If you want to tip in a way that makes you happy, go for it. If knowing how the sausage gets made pisses you off, don't ask how the sausage gets made. I don't think anyone expects the customer to do anything about the situation, but the customer is actually the one that holds the power in the situation. If they don't show up to eat, the food joint doesn't make any money and will have to adjust or close.

If you are serious about writing your congressman or senator to counteract the restaurant lobby to make meaningful changes, that would be a great thing to do.

If you don't want some sort of bodily fluid in your food, tip accordingly. Trust me.

Ever tip shitty and then the waiter is super happy to make you a to-go drink or something anyway? There's some extra DNA in there for sure, I don't care how nice the place is.
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Old 02-17-2020, 05:07 PM
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Ever tip shitty and then the waiter is super happy to make you a to-go drink or something anyway? There's some extra DNA in there for sure, I don't care how nice the place is.
Nonsense.

And this is Great Debates.

Do you have an ACTUAL cite?
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Old 02-17-2020, 05:14 PM
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Translucent Daydream, would you care to comment on how you deal with co-workers who do such things to the customers' food? Because if you're at all okay with that, even to the point of looking the other way, you've kind of lost any moral high ground you had in this discussion.

You don't treat people like that because you think they should voluntarily give you more money. That's not acceptable.

I don't like tipping because I feel it's unfair. You've pretty much confirmed that, but you've added a level of antagonism that does nothing but make me feel like the whole thing is just extortion.
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Old 02-17-2020, 05:16 PM
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I don't think anyone expects the customer to do anything about the situation, but the customer is actually the one that holds the power in the situation. If they don't show up to eat, the food joint doesn't make any money and will have to adjust or close.

[...]

If you don't want some sort of bodily fluid in your food, tip accordingly. Trust me.

Ever tip shitty and then the waiter is super happy to make you a to-go drink or something anyway? There's some extra DNA in there for sure, I don't care how nice the place is.
I hope you realize that "you have the power to never eat out again" isn't really a position of having power. In fact here is the order of power, from least to most:

The diner has to grossly overpay on the bullshit lying prices or the servers shit in their food.

The server has wildly unstable wages, but the ability to commit actual crimes if they feel that customers aren't overpaying hard enough.

The restaurants lie about their prices and grossly underpay the servers and laugh all the way to the bank.

I tip when I'm out with somebody and they lead us to someplace that requires a tip or abuse will happen. Otherwise I choose places to get food at that don't require customers to grossly overpay in order to avoid abuse.
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Old 02-17-2020, 05:47 PM
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You get cut way faster if you are getting paid 7.25 or whatever wage is instead of 2.13. At 2.13, you are essentially free labor to the restaurant and you tend to get held around longer in case it gets busier later. Remember, waiters don't work 8-5 most of the time. They have a start time and work until they get cut. I have been cut immediately walking into work, never taking a table at all, just doing the side work that gets the restaurant ready for the shift. That is free labor to the restaurant. With the loss of potential tip income, that sweet Target job becomes equivalent to the waiting job and people will take guaranteed hours over "maybe" hours. Its gone from tables to hours.
You think retail and other customer-based businesses don't send people home when business is slow? They absolutely do unless there's a law preventing it - and most of those laws that I've seen only guarantee a maximum of four hours or less , not the full scheduled shift.
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:07 PM
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Translucent Daydream, would you care to comment on how you deal with co-workers who do such things to the customers' food? Because if you're at all okay with that, even to the point of looking the other way, you've kind of lost any moral high ground you had in this discussion.

You don't treat people like that because you think they should voluntarily give you more money. That's not acceptable.

I don't like tipping because I feel it's unfair. You've pretty much confirmed that, but you've added a level of antagonism that does nothing but make me feel like the whole thing is just extortion.
Honestly I busted the folks that did this when I was a manger, but it happened at each restaurant I worked at. I also reported to the state on their food handler's license.

Here is how restaurant managers watch for this so you guys know:

Watching servers so that they don't spit in FOOD

The expo manager (the guy on the outside of the line from the kitchen) and the chef feeding the expo manager (on the inside side of the kitchen, facing where the waitstaff walk in and out of the kitchen) watch the food as it is served. They generally know who is going to do it, and watches the waiter as they take the food out of the kitchen onto the dining floor.

Watching servers so they don't spit in a drink

Most restaurants, at least the drinks are filled and prepared outside the kitchen directly by the waiter. Think of the soda fountains you see in "stations" around a dining room. The nicer places tend to have less table tops, so they will have maybe one station. A good GM will be working the floor, and paying attention to the waitstaff especially when they are seated initially. If you are a GM, you really watch what gets ordered initially as the beverage selection on a table that you are managing. If they order a bunch of weird shit like "strawberry lemonade" and "peach tea" so something that generally going to be a problem table and you watched that closer.

Watching the kitchen to make sure no "floor spice"

This is mainly done by the expo manager and the expo chef. When its busy, its not generally a problem unless you have a dickhead in the kitchen, which isn't that uncommon in the industry. When its slow right before closing time, or when something has been sent back for whatever reason, those are the ones you watch. The kitchen generally has people that have been there since 10:00 AM, and when the place "closes" at midnight, the kitchen has already undergone its nightly cleaning while its still open. The expo manager is generally gone at this time and the waitstaff will pull the order directly from the expo chef, or whoever is running that position at that point. That is a dangerous time for an order and that is what you really watch out for. The waiter at that time, unless you put your order in right before the close of the night cares less since he or she has to be there anyway. If you piss off the waiter, the GM is probably in the back checking out the other waitstaff, and there isn't anyone watching them.

Stuff I busted as a head waiter

Someone doing lines of blow by the top area of an ice machine, and then loosing an ear ring in the ice bin when they jumped back after I walked in on them.

A dude going down on another dude behind the barrier at a server's station on the dining room floor on a slow afternoon.

Hostess getting a handie from an assistant manager. Pretty sure that was illegal since she was 16. I reported that right away.

Spitting in food.

Spitting in a drink.

Having a used tampon dunked into an alcoholic drink that was made in the service bar, not the customer bar on the dining room floor.

Waiter digging in his ass, and then palming a side salad plate.

Various pube sprinkling. Gender of the offender: about half and half, slanted slightly more to the male.

Busboy wiping puke off of a table, where it looked clean but still smelled like a child's barf.

Just picking out the roaches out of a bin of tea made yesterday, but not cleaning it and making another bin. Lots of random roach stuff actually now that I think of it.

Sneezing right in the salad dressing counter, and not giving a damn.

Bartender selling blow. A bag fell out when he was trying to slide a bill out.

Selling illegal guns.

Human trafficking.

Stuff I busted as an assistant or general manager

Drug sales. Not weed but pills and powdery stuff I was afraid to touch.

Smoking weed behind the dumpster before a shift (if they didn't share).

Lots and lots and lots of sexual harassment issues. One notable one is where a dishwasher would chase the waitresses around with a hotdog with mayo on the tip screaming "get on it."

The tea bagging of dinner plates. That, for those who don't know, involves rubbing your sweaty testicles on a plate before you put food on it. I caught that one on camera while I was in the office checking out another waiter.

The random pubing of random stuff.

Spitting in coffee.

Dropping food and then putting it back on the plate. Five second rule type of stuff.

Credit card fraud by the waiter, where they would use the same pen to alter numbers to round the ticket further.

Credit card fraud by an assistant manager, where they adjusted the tips they waiter got because they held the tips until a paycheck. This only happened to credit card tips. Where the figures were right to the book keeper, but the assistant pocketed tips and held them.

Feet stuff.
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  #84  
Old 02-17-2020, 06:14 PM
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You think retail and other customer-based businesses don't send people home when business is slow? They absolutely do unless there's a law preventing it - and most of those laws that I've seen only guarantee a maximum of four hours or less , not the full scheduled shift.
No, not generally in big box retail. The store manager is the only one that can cut those folks, and generally won't schedule them in the first place if they think its slow. The department manager or assistant has no power to do any of this as the schedules are set in the back office or by corporate somewhere else (as in Wal-Mart).

Small shops could do this easily. Big box retail like that sweet Target job, not so much.
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:18 PM
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Nonsense.

And this is Great Debates.

Do you have an ACTUAL cite?
9 Restaurants I worked at, some private, some corporate

11 Restuarants my wife worked at, some crossing over to the ones I worked at

Best friend still in the business, but a much nicer place. Same problems tho'.

Or, if it makes you feel better, I'm lying. I can tell you guys though you are being laughed at by people that have worked the industry at this very moment.
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:31 PM
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9 Restaurants I worked at, some private, some corporate

11 Restuarants my wife worked at, some crossing over to the ones I worked at

Best friend still in the business, but a much nicer place. Same problems tho'.

Or, if it makes you feel better, I'm lying. I can tell you guys though you are being laughed at by people that have worked the industry at this very moment.
Well, you've worked with some grade-A assholes, then. I've worked at a couple service jobs as have many of my friends, and this never happened at any of them. We knew who were the bad tippers. We didn't do anything to their food. What kind of fucknut sociopath would do that? (Not that I don't believe it doesn't happen at some places, but, man, that's not usual in my experience.)

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Old 02-17-2020, 06:46 PM
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No, not generally in big box retail. The store manager is the only one that can cut those folks, and generally won't schedule them in the first place if they think its slow. The department manager or assistant has no power to do any of this as the schedules are set in the back office or by corporate somewhere else (as in Wal-Mart).

Small shops could do this easily. Big box retail like that sweet Target job, not so much.
They do generally schedule fewer people when they expect it to be slow- but my husband and my son both worked in big box retail ( at very different times and different stores) and people were frequently sent home early ( by the store manager or assistant working that shift) if business was slower than expected.
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:56 PM
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Well, you've worked with some grade-A assholes, then. I've worked at a couple service jobs as have many of my friends, and this never happened at any of them. We knew who were the bad tippers. We didn't do anything to their food. What kind of fucknut sociopath would do that? (Not that I don't believe it doesn't happen at some places, but, man, that's not usual in my experience.)
I would totally agree with you, I definitely worked with the cream of the asshole crop.
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Old 02-17-2020, 07:07 PM
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They do generally schedule fewer people when they expect it to be slow- but my husband and my son both worked in big box retail ( at very different times and different stores) and people were frequently sent home early ( by the store manager or assistant working that shift) if business was slower than expected.
That never happened to me when I worked at Wal-Mart because the schedules were done in Arkansas. It doesnít happen that way at Hobby Lobby or at Target either. Those are the stores I or my wife worked at. Iím not sure on the others. It makes sense from a business stand point definitely.
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Old 02-17-2020, 08:14 PM
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My CIA-trained SIL, formerly personal chef for a notorious billionaire after working well-known restaurants (and rejecting one exec-chef offer from a famous but failing hotel that he feared would blame said exec-chef for said failure) probably doesn't spit in our food at family feasts - though I don't entirely trust his moody young daughter. But he doesn't tip extravagantly when dining out, and he pays VERY close attention to what's being served and how. He felt best taking us to boutique eateries run by his friends who were unlikely to mistreat us.

There's the trick to successful dining: hope your kid marries a celeb chef. When he teaches her to cook, rejoice!
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Old 02-17-2020, 08:25 PM
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From the Central Intelligence Agency to personal billionaire's chef?! That's a strange progression.

Yes, I did have to re-read that before I got my two brain cells to fire at the same time.
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Old 02-17-2020, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
All of that is going to vary from person to person, and place to place. It's not possible to keep track of it, and nobody is going to be honest about it, anyway. So I refuse to be held hostage to it.
How many of your other commercial transactions do you have more transparency on? When you buy an item in a store or from Amazon, for instance, do you have any idea how much of the cost goes to the cashier or the store manager or the sweatshop worker who actually made the item? Are you equally indignant about the fact that a fixed price is going to vary from place to place, and that it's not possible to keep track of its ultimate allocation, and that nobody's going to be honest about it anyway?

Funny how all this righteous indignation against lack of transparency and fairness in commercial transactions only seems to crop up when buyers see an opportunity to get away with paying less than the expected price without legal repercussions.

If you can't afford to pay currently standard tip percentages, then you have the same legal and ethical option available as you do in the case of any other purchase you can't afford: i.e., do without it. Likewise, if you want to take a stand on your principled objections to the tipping system, then stop patronizing restaurants where tipping is expected.

But continuing to reward the restaurant owners (who are the ones who actually have power to change the system) by paying their stated prices, while stiffing the lowly waitstaff who have no control over the tipping system, is selfish and hypocritical.
  #93  
Old 02-17-2020, 08:45 PM
Isamu is offline
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Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
Feet stuff.
I am fascinated. But I don't even want to know. It is better left to my imagination. Feet stuff.
  #94  
Old 02-17-2020, 09:07 PM
pulykamell is online now
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Originally Posted by D_Odds View Post
From the Central Intelligence Agency to personal billionaire's chef?! That's a strange progression.

Yes, I did have to re-read that before I got my two brain cells to fire at the same time.
And for those who don't know, and I'm sure there are a lot, CIA in a culinary context typically means "Culinary Institute of America."
  #95  
Old 02-17-2020, 09:21 PM
Dr. Drake is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
How many of your other commercial transactions do you have more transparency on? When you buy an item in a store or from Amazon, for instance, do you have any idea how much of the cost goes to the cashier or the store manager or the sweatshop worker who actually made the item? Are you equally indignant about the fact that a fixed price is going to vary from place to place, and that it's not possible to keep track of its ultimate allocation, and that nobody's going to be honest about it anyway?

Funny how all this righteous indignation against lack of transparency and fairness in commercial transactions only seems to crop up when buyers see an opportunity to get away with paying less than the expected price without legal repercussions.

If you can't afford to pay currently standard tip percentages, then you have the same legal and ethical option available as you do in the case of any other purchase you can't afford: i.e., do without it. Likewise, if you want to take a stand on your principled objections to the tipping system, then stop patronizing restaurants where tipping is expected.

But continuing to reward the restaurant owners (who are the ones who actually have power to change the system) by paying their stated prices, while stiffing the lowly waitstaff who have no control over the tipping system, is selfish and hypocritical.
Do you not see the difference between the cost of an item and a gratuity? It's not about "getting away with paying less." I mentioned my personal tipping habits upthread. I don't like the system, but I'm in it, so that's what I do.

What I object to is being criticized for not tipping more, and being held responsible for cheap-ass restauranteurs and greedy people everywhere. Fuck those games. If you'd like more money out of me, ask me honestly. Don't beg and flatter and hope that I'm going to reward good service, and don't give me and my ilk the power to punish bad service by withholding money that you've earned. I don't get my pay docked on a bad day, why should a server?

Most of all, don't criticize me for not tipping 20% or more on a meal. I'm sorry that your boss is too exploitative and dishonest to charge fair prices, but that's not my fault and it's not my responsibility. I would be happy to limit my restaurant-going to places that paid a fair wage, but I have no way of finding out who that is.

The industry is fucked up. Sort yourselves out, but don't blame me for it. I'll keep tipping 15% post-tax, and that's going to have to be good enough for you.
  #96  
Old 02-17-2020, 09:24 PM
UltraVires is offline
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Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
How many of your other commercial transactions do you have more transparency on? When you buy an item in a store or from Amazon, for instance, do you have any idea how much of the cost goes to the cashier or the store manager or the sweatshop worker who actually made the item? Are you equally indignant about the fact that a fixed price is going to vary from place to place, and that it's not possible to keep track of its ultimate allocation, and that nobody's going to be honest about it anyway?

Funny how all this righteous indignation against lack of transparency and fairness in commercial transactions only seems to crop up when buyers see an opportunity to get away with paying less than the expected price without legal repercussions.

If you can't afford to pay currently standard tip percentages, then you have the same legal and ethical option available as you do in the case of any other purchase you can't afford: i.e., do without it. Likewise, if you want to take a stand on your principled objections to the tipping system, then stop patronizing restaurants where tipping is expected.

But continuing to reward the restaurant owners (who are the ones who actually have power to change the system) by paying their stated prices, while stiffing the lowly waitstaff who have no control over the tipping system, is selfish and hypocritical.
I think the point, that I very much agree with, is that on Amazon the full price is listed. It's $100. Full Stop. They have to pay their workers in compliance with labor laws and if they don't and get caught, then they can be prosecuted.

The tipping system would be like if Amazon listed the price at $80 and left it up to the customer to "tip" a voluntary amount, and if you only tipped an extra $10 being told that you are responsible for Amazon employees not making minimum wage.

That's all bullshit. Tipping is condescending anyways and implies a social caste system. For all of the problems outlined in this thread alone, just get rid of it. Charge the price that covers your costs and be transparent. Pay your employees according to the law and on merit. That waiter who provides excellent service and has a good attitude. Pay him more. The waitress who just goes through the motions, pay her less. Anyone who is caught adulterating food should be fired and reported to the authorities for prosecution.

The whole system feels like a drug deal. I tip the bartender good and he gives me a heavier pour. That is simply a theft from the business. Make all this above board. Charge $5.00 for a drink, but $6.50 for a little bigger drink. No guessing or winking or slipping cash in a tip jar.

Be honest with people. If a tip allows you to jump line and get seated faster, post a price out front "Skip the line for an extra $15!" If that pisses off customers, then don't do it. But don't have this secret underground system where you do it but don't tell the customers.
  #97  
Old 02-17-2020, 09:37 PM
UltraVires is offline
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Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
I can tell you a reason why a lot of wait staff don't like it when the restaurant changes over from tips to a non-tip situation. Its not the loss of ability to fraud the government out of declaring income. The waiter still gets cut the same when the restaurant slows down. They make even less that way since they didn't get tips, the restaurant wants to shed labor as fast as they can each day. No chance of a good table if you get cut early. You get cut way faster if you are getting paid 7.25 or whatever wage is instead of 2.13. At 2.13, you are essentially free labor to the restaurant and you tend to get held around longer in case it gets busier later. Remember, waiters don't work 8-5 most of the time. They have a start time and work until they get cut. I have been cut immediately walking into work, never taking a table at all, just doing the side work that gets the restaurant ready for the shift. That is free labor to the restaurant. With the loss of potential tip income, that sweet Target job becomes equivalent to the waiting job and people will take guaranteed hours over "maybe" hours. Its gone from tables to hours.

The whole situation is fucked up to be honest, and I am not sure that restaurants are prepared to take a hit on labor to bring the tipping issue away. It can be crazy if you think about it. If you want to tip in a way that makes you happy, go for it. If knowing how the sausage gets made pisses you off, don't ask how the sausage gets made. I don't think anyone expects the customer to do anything about the situation, but the customer is actually the one that holds the power in the situation. If they don't show up to eat, the food joint doesn't make any money and will have to adjust or close.
How is this any different than a commissioned sales job? It's not my fault if you give me an hour presentation on your wonderful new vacuum cleaner, but I don't buy it. Or, if I do buy it, I don't slip you something extra for the last guy who didn't buy it. And these people are not guaranteed minimum wage by law.

This idea that you "pay to work" some days or even on some tables is simply the wrong way to look at it. A commissioned real estate agent who makes $50k per year made $50k last year. She didn't "pay to work" on those days that she didn't sell any houses. She didn't "lose" money by driving a guy to four different houses and him not buying any of them. That's part of the process by which she earned $50k last year.

Likewise, the days where you make $300 account for those days where you make $0 or -$20. Those latter two amounts are part of the process of making the $300. If that doesn't suit you then Wal-Mart and Target are hiring at above minimum wage.

In any event, it is not the fault of customers if restaurant owners are violating the wage laws.
  #98  
Old 02-17-2020, 10:23 PM
Odesio is offline
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Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
We all know itís illegal, but it happens everywhere. You turn in one place and you are black balled from working anywhere else.

In the real world, it works how it works.
Many restaurants have a turnover rate in excess of 100%. How can someone possibly be blackballed?
__________________
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  #99  
Old 02-17-2020, 10:37 PM
D'Anconia is online now
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Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
9 Restaurants I worked at, some private, some corporate

11 Restuarants my wife worked at, some crossing over to the ones I worked at

Best friend still in the business, but a much nicer place. Same problems tho'.

Or, if it makes you feel better, I'm lying. I can tell you guys though you are being laughed at by people that have worked the industry at this very moment.
You were asked for a cite, and you were unable/unwilling to provide one. That's not a debate.

I'm out.
  #100  
Old 02-17-2020, 10:58 PM
UltraVires is offline
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Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
I am going to trade CASH NOW for a paycheck, and that might be well and good, but I start on a Tuesday at Target. I am just now at the end of their pay cycle, so I am going to have to wait two weeks for a check that has one or two days of work on it, then wait another two weeks for a real check. And man, its taxed to shit, so I am only taking 72 percent of that check. In those 4 weeks of waiting on a normal paycheck so I can start a new budget, I had rent due, I had to put gas in the car to get back and forth to work, I had the electric bill....

So now I have a paycheck job, but I am homeless. I don't make enough to save enough for the 3 months up front rent that is required for a new place. I moved back in with my parents. I realized that I left a job that I averaged 50 dollars a day on, working each day of the week, for a job that pays less after taxes are taken out. I now work reporting an income that disqualifies me for medicaid and any other assistance, so my insurance is gone. I no longer have the ability to work each day when I need money, so I have now this Target job that isn't getting me back into housing, and I am also back at the restaurant working for cash so I can get back and forth going to "Target".
I went back and saw this. So which is it? Are you getting screwed in tipped jobs? It seems not because you are making more money doing that than you would at Target.

But even though you are making less money, you no longer qualify for government assistance, because Target accurately reports your income and doesn't allow you to cheat the tax man, and cheat the rest of society by using government services that you should not qualify for.

It sounds like a good gig, but you complain about unethical bosses cheating you out of money and customers "fucking" you out of tips. From what you said here, it sounds like you are treated better here than most other jobs, especially when you engage in illegal activity.
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