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Old 12-28-2017, 01:24 PM
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why didnt any Dinosaurs survive?


OK, I am quite aware that most scientists consider birds a form of Dinosaurs, but for this thread, instead of using the term "non-avian dinosaurs" we will shorten that to dinosaurs. And call the dinoaurs that are avian= birds.

But many of the small dinosaurs were warm blooded and feathered. Crocodiles made it also.

So, why couldn't a small feathered dinosaur species survive the event? Sure, maybe later they might be pushed out by mammals or birds, but any survival of species seems to be unknown or controversial.

https://www.livescience.com/7747-din...id-impact.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scie...collision.html

This of course leads to the question of how impossible some small feather dino might be aaive today, thought of as just another bird by the natives and unknown to science.
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:44 PM
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Well, as you noted a chicken IS basically a dinosaur without the tail or teeth (though the genes are still in there, and I understand some work has been done to turn those back on and see them expressed...sort of reactivating latent traits), so not sure how to answer. I don't think any large dinosaurs survived because the conditions were so bad that only smaller species made it through, but certainly not ALL the dinos went extinct.
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:51 PM
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Well, as you noted a chicken IS basically a dinosaur without the tail or teeth (though the genes are still in there, and I understand some work has been done to turn those back on and see them expressed...sort of reactivating latent traits),
Payback will be a bitch.
I wonder why aquatic dinosaurs went extinct. Perhaps the problem was finding enough food, even in the water.

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Old 12-28-2017, 02:06 PM
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Well, there's one study that suggests part of the answer is that the other small dinosaurs couldn't eat seeds well. (Audio link)
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Old 12-28-2017, 02:09 PM
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Payback will be a bitch.
I wonder why aquatic dinosaurs went extinct. Perhaps the problem was finding enough food, even in the water.
Very few actual aquatic dinosaurs. Most of those are marine repltiles, not technically dinosaurs:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosasaur

Of course that begs the question, why didnt any mosasaurs survive?

Ichthyosaurs & plesiosaurs became extinct before the KT event. Their heyday was the late Triassic and early Jurassic. Perhaps replaces by Mosasuars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthyosaur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plesiosauria
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Old 12-28-2017, 04:03 PM
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What you're asking is "Other than the ones which did survive, why didn't any of the others survive?". The answer to which is tautological: If a different set had survived, then those would instead be the ones that you were excluding from the question.
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Old 12-28-2017, 04:18 PM
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What you're asking is "Other than the ones which did survive, why didn't any of the others survive?". The answer to which is tautological: If a different set had survived, then those would instead be the ones that you were excluding from the question.
Well, to some extent. But Birds are a special type of dinosaurs, Dinosaurs were many and varied and the birds were a tiny part of that. Why did the tiny part survive and the rest didnt?
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:49 PM
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Well, to some extent. But Birds are a special type of dinosaurs, Dinosaurs were many and varied and the birds were a tiny part of that. Why did the tiny part survive and the rest didnt?
Because pretty much all land animals larger than a cat died out. It might have been possible for a few small dinosaurs to have survived, but by the luck of the draw they didn't. And remember that almost all birds died out as well. The enantiornithes or "opposite birds" were the dominant group in the Cretaceous but became extinct at the KT event, leaving just the modern birds.
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:55 PM
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Of course that begs the question, why didnt any mosasaurs survive?
Because marine food webs collapsed. Much of the plankton was killed in the KT event, which killed off the ammonites, which were food for many mosasaurs. Larger fish would also have died out.

Crocodilians probably survived because they were capable of becoming dormant and remaining submerged for an extended period, an option that wasn't available to marine reptiles.
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:05 PM
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Crocodilians probably survived because they were capable of becoming dormant and remaining submerged for an extended period, an option that wasn't available to marine reptiles.
For how long? It must have taken some time for anything they preyed upon to recover to the extent to serve as prey again.
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:11 PM
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For how long? It must have taken some time for anything they preyed upon to recover to the extent to serve as prey again.
Modern crocs are reputed to go up to 3 years without food. A smaller ancestor could have easily survived on the other small water creatures, fish, worms, small amphibians, etc.
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:09 PM
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For how long? It must have taken some time for anything they preyed upon to recover to the extent to serve as prey again.
Turtles, lizards, snakes, and freshwater fish survived.
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:31 PM
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When a habitat undergoes a drastic change. Some of the species find that to their advantage. Predators and competitors can be wiped out. So some now have a far better habitat. They thrive. Whatever is left of their predators also thrive. As well as those who are somewhat symbiotic with them all.

It is a choke point. But some can squeeze through, or even take great advantage of it.

That huge change selected for a narrow band of traits. The big dinosaurs were not terribly efficient creatures. They required a large amount of large vegetation. Which became scarce. Smaller creatures fed on smaller flora and fauna. Which seems to recover and flourish faster after competition is eliminated. Large predators usually hunt larger prey. Which quickly starved out. So predators starved. T Rex would not be good at catching small fast prey.
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Old 12-29-2017, 02:13 AM
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It's probably worth noting that, at the time of the famous 'dinosaur killer' extinction event at the end of the Cretaceous, a lot of species we are familiar with from fossils, were already extinct for other reasons. - Stegasaurus, Iguanadon, Brachiosaurus, Icthyosaurus etc were already gone.

It's a little too easy to just imagine the world looked like one of those 1950s 'age of the dinosaurs' posters - with all of the different known species visible in a single vista - starting from that notion, it might be very perplexing that they were all wiped out simultaneously with no exceptions.
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:08 AM
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Another point is that even those species which survive a mass extinction are likely to have their numbers significantly reduced. If your dominance of your niche is weakened, then it's going to be easier for some other fast-adapting creature to move in and outcompete you. So even after the Big Event, there are going to be more extinctions as the ramifications of the Big Event shake out ecologically.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:05 AM
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Because pretty much all land animals larger than a cat died out. It might have been possible for a few small dinosaurs to have survived, but by the luck of the draw they didn't. And remember that almost all birds died out as well. The enantiornithes or "opposite birds" were the dominant group in the Cretaceous but became extinct at the KT event, leaving just the modern birds.
The Chicxulub impactor set the entire surface of the earth on fire. There's a worldwide layer of ash at the boundary. Tektites (cooled droplets of molten glass) believed to be from the impact have been found in the ocean on the other side of the world -- it threw molten glass completely around the planet.

In tests, burning vegetation cover presumed comparable to typical Cretaceous flora produced temperatures of 1,500 degrees F at ground level. That would kill every land animal on the surface of the earth.

But not those under the earth. A few inches below the soil, the temperature under the test fires was normal. So it has been proposed that, among land animals, ONLY burrowing animals survived.

As a generalization, large animals do not burrow -- it's too much work and there's not enough need driving them to do so. So it's likely that small, burrowed birds and mammals made it through the impact and every large dinosaur perished in a single day.

The famous "impact winter" which followed would have increased the stress on plants, plankton, and the whole food chain. This is probably what did in most of the sea fauna. And it would have been hard on the small surviving land animals. But it was probably a moot point for the giant dinosaurs, who were almost certainly killed before the cold and darkness mattered.

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It's probably worth noting that, at the time of the famous 'dinosaur killer' extinction event at the end of the Cretaceous, a lot of species we are familiar with from fossils, were already extinct for other reasons. - Stegasaurus, Iguanadon, Brachiosaurus, Icthyosaurus etc were already gone.

It's a little too easy to just imagine the world looked like one of those 1950s 'age of the dinosaurs' posters - with all of the different known species visible in a single vista - starting from that notion, it might be very perplexing that they were all wiped out simultaneously with no exceptions.
Good point. While your second paragraph corrects a common misconception, I'd like to expand upon your first: in many cases the "other reasons" for extinctions mentioned in your first paragraph were more "mind-boggling amounts of time" than some kind of unfitness. By the time Tyrannosaurus came along, Stegosaurus had been gone for 85 million years. Tyrannosaurus has been gone "only" 65-66 million years now, so the gap between us and T-Rex is 20 million years larger than the gap between those two dinosaurs.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:29 AM
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Another point is that even those species which survive a mass extinction are likely to have their numbers significantly reduced. If your dominance of your niche is weakened, then it's going to be easier for some other fast-adapting creature to move in and outcompete you. So even after the Big Event, there are going to be more extinctions as the ramifications of the Big Event shake out ecologically.
While the large dinosaurs only had to compete with each other there was competition among the smallest creatures. The smallest non-avian dinos were competing with their avian cousins, the little mammals that survived in caves and underground, and all the reptiles and amphibians that survived underwater. So yes, no surprise that all the smaller animals did not survive, and that those best able to cope with the post-apocalyptic world did.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:37 AM
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Good point. While your second paragraph corrects a common misconception, I'd like to expand upon your first: in many cases the "other reasons" for extinctions mentioned in your first paragraph were more "mind-boggling amounts of time" than some kind of unfitness. By the time Tyrannosaurus came along, Stegosaurus had been gone for 85 million years. Tyrannosaurus has been gone "only" 65-66 million years now, so the gap between us and T-Rex is 20 million years larger than the gap between those two dinosaurs.
Indeed - 'other reasons' covers quite a lot -
  • Time - i.e. they just fizzled out due to loss of habitat or competition from something else, or their line continued evolving into something recognisably different
  • Local extinction events - populations with a limited geographic spread being wiped out by something non-global such as floods, volcanoes, tsunamis
  • Other major extinction events
  • Etc

Last edited by Mangetout; 12-29-2017 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:41 AM
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But not those under the earth. A few inches below the soil, the temperature under the test fires was normal. So it has been proposed that, among land animals, ONLY burrowing animals survived.

As a generalization, large animals do not burrow -- it's too much work and there's not enough need driving them to do so. So it's likely that small, burrowed birds and mammals made it through the impact and every large dinosaur perished in a single day.
Genetic information indicates that several different lineages of modern birds survived the impact, not all of which made or lived in burrows. So there must have been at least a few places where not everything was incinerated. For birds, the ability to fly long distances in search of food may have been critical.

But yes, the land animals that survived were either small and capable of hiding in burrows or small and capable of flight. A few large freshwater animals like crocodilians survived. The dinosaurs living at the time of the KT event were non-flying (per the definition in the OP) and did not burrow.

Small pterosaurs might feasibly have survived the extinction, but could have lost out in the luck of the draw like enantiornithine birds.
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:00 AM
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But not those under the earth. A few inches below the soil, the temperature under the test fires was normal. So it has been proposed that, among land animals, ONLY burrowing animals survived.

As a generalization, large animals do not burrow -- it's too much work and there's not enough need driving them to do so. So it's likely that small, burrowed birds and mammals made it through the impact and every large dinosaur perished in a single day.
.
Burrowing birds? I mean, yes there are a few but....
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:07 AM
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Burrowing birds? I mean, yes there are a few but....
Quite a few birds make burrows for nesting. Very few live in them when not nesting, and all have to come out every day to look for food. I don't think any store food in them like small mammals do.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:22 AM
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Something that puzzles me - were there no dinosaurs occupying a similar evolutionary niche as crocodiles? Had the crocodiles already outcompeted all the dinosaurs in shallow water environments?
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:27 AM
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The Chicxulub impactor set the entire surface of the earth on fire. There's a worldwide layer of ash at the boundary. Tektites (cooled droplets of molten glass) believed to be from the impact have been found in the ocean on the other side of the world -- it threw molten glass completely around the planet.

In tests, burning vegetation cover presumed comparable to typical Cretaceous flora produced temperatures of 1,500 degrees F at ground level. That would kill every land animal on the surface of the earth.

I would think that would kill anything for the survivors to eat. There might have been some worms and burrowing insects.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:45 AM
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the gap between us and T-Rex is 20 million years larger than the gap between those two dinosaurs.
Errr...other way around. The gap between T-Rex and Stegos is 20 million years larger than the gap between us and T-Rex.

It is wrong, but nit-pickingly closer to correct, to show humans living beside T-Rex than to show T-Rex living beside Stegosaurus.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:23 PM
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Something that puzzles me - were there no dinosaurs occupying a similar evolutionary niche as crocodiles?
Which behavior do you mean? Eating fish, or waiting to ambush land animals that are attempting to drink water? The spinosaurs probably were the closest that we know of.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:39 PM
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Whichever behaviour it was that enabled (some?) crocodiles to survive.

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Old 12-29-2017, 01:01 PM
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Whichever behaviour it was that enabled (some?) crocodiles to survive.
Even with crocs, half of the families didn't survive and no large ones.
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Old 12-29-2017, 02:12 PM
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The Chicxulub impactor set the entire surface of the earth on fire.
That's unlikely. Apart from anything else, while Australia and New Zealand have KT sediment strata, we have yet to find a single plant which went extinct there.
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Old 12-29-2017, 05:06 PM
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Which behavior do you mean? Eating fish, or waiting to ambush land animals that are attempting to drink water? The spinosaurs probably were the closest that we know of.
The spinosaurs, however, died out a good 20 million years before the KT event.

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Whichever behaviour it was that enabled (some?) crocodiles to survive.
Dinosaurs may not have evolved to fill the crocodile niche because the crocodiles were already filling it.
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Old 12-29-2017, 05:16 PM
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Dinosaurs may not have evolved to fill the crocodile niche because the crocodiles were already filling it.
Perhaps they ate anything that tried.
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Old 12-30-2017, 02:43 PM
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Some birds might have survived, not by burrowing, but by living in (or just happening to be over at the time) large bodies of water sufficiently far from anything flammable.
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:13 PM
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Mammals also came close to not making it, with possibly over 90 percent of species going extinct.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:27 AM
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Perhaps they ate anything that tried.
The largest Mesozoic crocodiles were in the size range of mid-sized dinosaurs and most likely preyed on ones that got too close to the water.

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Some birds might have survived, not by burrowing, but by living in (or just happening to be over at the time) large bodies of water sufficiently far from anything flammable.
Four lineages of birds appear to have survived the extinction event: ostrich-like birds, or ratites, whose ancestors were probably flying forms at the time; chicken-like birds; ducks; and the ancestors of all other modern birds. It seems the ancestors of the last were mainly marine or aquatic at the time.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:43 AM
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Why did the chicken cross the road?

The escape the K-T extinction event.
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:02 AM
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If we're at this point...

Life DIDN'T find a way?
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:21 AM
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If we're at this point...

Life DIDN'T find a way?
"Life" created us, and sooner or later we'll figure out a way to bring them back!

In truth, there is no known factual answer to the OP's question. If someone knows, they should quickly publish their findings in one of the appropriate journals. People in this thread are certainly offering plausible, intelligent explanations, but the truth is that we are just not certain. Due to the difficulty in testing hypothesis, it's likely that we may never know in the way we "know" other things in science, like why the planets orbit around the sun.

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Old 12-31-2017, 08:45 AM
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There's a worldwide layer of ash at the boundary.
I would like to see this boundary. I started a thread once asking where to do so.
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:05 AM
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like why the planets orbit around the sun.
They don't. They orbit around the Earth, in a very weird fashion.

Or, if you prefer, the Sun orbits around each of them at the same time.

Need to pick some other hypothesis which can actually be tested.
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:06 AM
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I would like to see this boundary. I started a thread once asking where to do so.
Alberta.
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:16 AM
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I would like to see this boundary. I started a thread once asking where to do so.
This site suggests Raton Basin, in Colorado and New Mexico.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:40 AM
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The Chicxulub impactor set the entire surface of the earth on fire. There's a worldwide layer of ash at the boundary.
My understanding is that the impact was at an angle, and threw a fan of superheated material over North America that scoured most of the continent (some limited areas appear to have been shadowed by mountains or other high ground) that wiped out exposed plant and animal life. The rest of the globe was impacted indirectly by the ash and dust of this event, leading to nuclear winter and heavy ashfalls causing further extinctions.
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:40 PM
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is it possible that the compy types scavenged off all of the piles of already cooked meat like it was xmas dinner buffet and thrived?
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:48 PM
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A single stash of lots and lots of meat isn't going to hold you through five years or so of nuclear winter.
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:55 PM
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is it possible that the compy types scavenged off all of the piles of already cooked meat like it was xmas dinner buffet and thrived?
If they did, it wasn't for long, since they didn't survive.
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Old 12-31-2017, 03:44 PM
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Do we actually KNOW they all died from the Chicxulub event?

Is it possible some smaller species did survive? Very few species last all that long - in geologic terms - and they could have gone extinct later from other causes.
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Old 12-31-2017, 04:09 PM
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Do we actually KNOW they all died from the Chicxulub event?

Is it possible some smaller species did survive? Very few species last all that long - in geologic terms - and they could have gone extinct later from other causes.
Some way may, it is disputed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scie...collision.html

https://www.livescience.com/7747-din...id-impact.html
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Old 12-31-2017, 05:20 PM
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Do we actually KNOW they all died from the Chicxulub event?

Is it possible some smaller species did survive? Very few species last all that long - in geologic terms - and they could have gone extinct later from other causes.
From time to time there have been claims of dinosaur remains from after the KT event. However, the claims I am aware of are for less than one million years after the event.

The champsosaurs were a crocodile-like group (but not actually crocodilians) that survived the event only to become extinct in the Eocene.

Last edited by Colibri; 12-31-2017 at 05:20 PM.
  #48  
Old 12-31-2017, 07:02 PM
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why didnt any Dinosaurs survive?


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Happy New Year

Last edited by burpo the wonder mutt; 12-31-2017 at 07:03 PM.
  #49  
Old 12-31-2017, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookkeeper View Post
My understanding is that the impact was at an angle
Angle doesn't matter in high-speed impacts unless it is very shallow angle. The explosion of rock from the impact is going to be much bigger than the physical size of the impactor itself. That's why the vast majority of all astroblemes you see on Earth or other bodies are round. The Chicxulub crater is deeply buried now, but it seems to be a normal circular complex crater.
  #50  
Old 01-01-2018, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
So, why couldn't a small feathered dinosaur species survive the event?
Because your very first action was to deliberately EXCLUDE them from your definition?
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