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Old 01-14-2018, 11:12 AM
BloodStalk BloodStalk is online now
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What are your thoughts on my debate with this conservative regarding Trumps sh**thole comment?

I was arguing with a right winger on twitter over this comment he made: "For those who are mad at Trump for saying some countries are shitholes, I urge you to MOVE to one of those countries and see for yourself. Until then, stop pretending you know what the world outside your PC echo-chamber is like, because you don't."

His response: I was trying to do was just calm people down over the comment Trump made and say that he was just talking about how there are SOME dangerous people in the country and that there are crime issues, not go after the entire race as a whole. I have immigrant relatives who come from countries that are a bit unstable and I am perfectly aware that not all immigrants are bad people. If it weren't for immigration, my mother and father never would have met so I'm a product of it. Please understand, it was never my intention to bash immigrants, I just don't like it when people take things out of context. I should have been more careful with what I said but let's not dwell on that anyway.

My response: You are sugarcoating your tweets. You literally agreed and have retweeted right wingers calling those countries shitholes. You literally said people have bad culture. This is not about insulting immigrants, its about generalizing entire countries. Your tweet is not calming people, you said go to these countries yourself: which means, go and see Trump is right, they are shitholes. This is your tweet:

This one: For those who are mad at Trump for saying some countries are shitholes, I urge you to MOVE to one of those countries and see for yourself. Until then, stop pretending you know what the world outside your PC echo-chamber is like, because you don't.

You're literally agreeing, these countries are shi*tholes

His response: Well culture can be bad. The Nazis were a cultural movement and that was bad, right. Anyone who takes part in killing or bigotry is part of a bad culture. People can be from these countries and be bad OR they can be good. Trump's wording was immature and could have been better but it is a fact that there are bad aspects of many countries. Culture and race are not the same thing. There are bad cultures in my country and there is a bad culture entering my party too, the alt-right in particular, and I'm not ashamed to admit that. I don't trust the right-wing establishment, I've been more center-right than before, but when I deal with people with ridiculous opinions, I might come across as far-right to some people but again, it's the context that matters.

and he's playing the victim:I tend to make jokes and constructive criticisms about things in the news that irritate me as a way to cope with it and keep myself from getting angry. This does NOT equal racism. People on both sides do this all the time, but remember, there are good apples on both sides...

So, I was wondering, how do you view his actions? It seems to me like he's downplaying his actions and sugar coating his comments or am I in the wrong?

Last edited by BloodStalk; 01-14-2018 at 11:15 AM.
  #2  
Old 01-14-2018, 11:46 AM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is offline
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I think you're both ignoring context completely.

Many of these countries are shitholes in terms of how they present to travellers: dirty and corrupt. Some of this is because those countries lack the infrastructure to deal with the detritus of large urban populations; some of it is to do with poverty. A hell of a lot of it is the legacy of colonialism. Nevertheless, on the surface, "shithole" is a reasonable if impolite descriptor, and I think that's what your debater was going for: a surface picture that is accurate but incomplete. Certainly an American moving to Lagos could, in the first couple of weeks, be forgiven for using that word in his own head as he learns to navigate the culture.

The thing is, when the President of the USA uses a phrase, he should not be speaking at the level of the cruise ship passenger. His use of that word inherently makes it go deeper, regardless of his intent. He is condemning, as you argue, the whole culture, and 'shithole" is incorrect. It is also unacceptable for so many reasons, from the inherent racism to the effect on American diplomacy.

Your debater, like Trump himself, seems unaware that having the president speak in an official context adds important weight and nuances to what he says. I don't think your Twitter friend is wrong about the substance: some nations and cultures do, indeed, have deep systemic problems that makes them unpleasant places to be in the short term, at least in comparison with, say, life in Norway.

That's such a simple and convenient belief that no amount of logic is going to find a crack to get in. Talking about the richness of the cultures in those countries, and the reasons they are the way they are and that with a modicum of stability, they'd actually be awesome places (cf. Botswana)—he doesn't want to believe that, and you can't make him.

Short version, if my Uncle Fred said Haiti was a shithole, I'd maybe talk to him about some of the things he'd missed. I would disagree but not necessarily tell him he's wrong. It's subjective and depends on where you're coming from. When the President says it, in addition to being mortified, I write my representatives about impeachment. It's so far from professional behaviour that the man cannot be allowed to continue in his job.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:58 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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You want him impeached for being unprofessional?
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:02 PM
BloodStalk BloodStalk is online now
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
I think you're both ignoring context completely.

Many of these countries are shitholes in terms of how they present to travellers: dirty and corrupt. Some of this is because those countries lack the infrastructure to deal with the detritus of large urban populations; some of it is to do with poverty. A hell of a lot of it is the legacy of colonialism. Nevertheless, on the surface, "shithole" is a reasonable if impolite descriptor, and I think that's what your debater was going for: a surface picture that is accurate but incomplete. Certainly an American moving to Lagos could, in the first couple of weeks, be forgiven for using that word in his own head as he learns to navigate the culture.

The thing is, when the President of the USA uses a phrase, he should not be speaking at the level of the cruise ship passenger. His use of that word inherently makes it go deeper, regardless of his intent. He is condemning, as you argue, the whole culture, and 'shithole" is incorrect. It is also unacceptable for so many reasons, from the inherent racism to the effect on American diplomacy.

Your debater, like Trump himself, seems unaware that having the president speak in an official context adds important weight and nuances to what he says. I don't think your Twitter friend is wrong about the substance: some nations and cultures do, indeed, have deep systemic problems that makes them unpleasant places to be in the short term, at least in comparison with, say, life in Norway.

That's such a simple and convenient belief that no amount of logic is going to find a crack to get in. Talking about the richness of the cultures in those countries, and the reasons they are the way they are and that with a modicum of stability, they'd actually be awesome places (cf. Botswana)—he doesn't want to believe that, and you can't make him.

Short version, if my Uncle Fred said Haiti was a shithole, I'd maybe talk to him about some of the things he'd missed. I would disagree but not necessarily tell him he's wrong. It's subjective and depends on where you're coming from. When the President says it, in addition to being mortified, I write my representatives about impeachment. It's so far from professional behaviour that the man cannot be allowed to continue in his job.

I was wondering, does that mean I am in the wrong here and had no right to be offended/call him out?

Last edited by BloodStalk; 01-14-2018 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:03 PM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is offline
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Among other things, yes. Not just for being unprofessional, but for being consistently unprofessional to a degree that warrants intervention.

I would fire any employee who demonstrated the level of unprofessionalism that Trump has demonstrated since he took office. I don't see why there should be an exception for the most important job in the country.
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:05 PM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is offline
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Originally Posted by BloodStalk View Post
I was wondering, does that mean I am in the wrong here and had no right to be offended?
Being offended is a privilege, not a right. You can be as offended as you like.

I don't think you were wrong. I don't think it was a productive discussion, in that I don't see either side getting through to the other, but I don't think you were wrong.
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:10 PM
BloodStalk BloodStalk is online now
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
Being offended is a privilege, not a right. You can be as offended as you like.

I don't think you were wrong. I don't think it was a productive discussion, in that I don't see either side getting through to the other, but I don't think you were wrong.
I was just asking as this guy is trying to play the victim and sugar coating what he said.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:08 PM
Sunny Daze Sunny Daze is online now
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I would just add whether or not Trump or anyone else might subjectively perceive any country as a "shithole" doesn't mean that residents should not be allowed to immigrate here. One could argue the opposite is true.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:25 PM
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Speaking as a resident of South Shithole, I spent a hellish day relaxing and having a delicious lunch on a winefarm just outside Cape Town.

I spend my days toiling tirelessly in an air conditioned office on the slopes of Table Mountain. My secretary never brings me coffee just the way I like it and sometimes the arsehole in the unit next door is in my parking space. Sometimes I have to work late. You probably can't even comprehend how much i suffer.

Your rightwing tweeter is truly a font of wisdom.

EDIT: and I forgot to mention my mild sunburn! Truly I am stuck in a Dantean hell here.

Last edited by WilyQuixote; 01-14-2018 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:37 PM
DrFidelius DrFidelius is offline
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I think we should encourage immigrants from "shithole" countries for simple humanitarian reasons.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:49 PM
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What do you think of his attemps to sugarcoat what he said?
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:50 PM
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Context is everything.

Look, I think a great many people have said Haiti is a shithole. Or a hellhole, or some other unpleasant description, and the reason we say that is because it is, in fact, an unpleasant country, as compared to almost all the other ones.

The thing is, if I say Haiti is a shithole, I am not saying there's anything wrong with Haitians. Haitians are unfortunate that their country, for many, many reasons beyond the control of Haitians, is an unpleasant place to live. That doesn't make HAITIANS shitty, it makes them unlucky. Haitians are as fine as anyone else, though. A Haitian immigrated to my country and became Governor General and probably did the job better than anyone else in my lifetime.

Trump, in context, was implying that the problem with Haiti and African countries was that the people are shitty, and the fact that he once again appears to be picking on black people takes us well past any reasonable interpretation of it as a coincidence. There is a damn big difference betwene observing that Haiti is a bad place to live because of earthquakes, deforestation, and a history of instability, and thus one feels very sorry for Haitians, and saying that Haiti sucks because of Haitians.

Additionally, suggesting immigrants should not be accepted from less pleasant countries is... well, it's fucking imbecilic. That's where the immigrants come from. Doyyyyyyy. You're not going to have people flooding in from the NICE countries. America has been built by people coming in from shitholes. Ireland was a shithole. Germany was a shithole, and Vietnam was a shithole, and Poland was a shithole, and the Phillippines, and on and on. That's why people leave those places. As it turned out, the problem wasn't the ordinary person, because they turned out just fine in America.
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Last edited by RickJay; 01-14-2018 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:56 PM
BloodStalk BloodStalk is online now
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Context is everything.

Look, I think a great many people have said Haiti is a shithole. Or a hellhole, or some other unpleasant description, and the reason we say that is because it is, in fact, an unpleasant country, as compared to almost all the other ones.

The thing is, if I say Haiti is a shithole, I am not saying there's anything wrong with Haitians. Haitians are unfortunate that their country, for many, many reasons beyond the control of Haitians, is an unpleasant place to live. That doesn't make HAITIANS shitty, it makes them unlucky. Haitians are as fine as anyone else, though. A Haitian immigrated to my country and became Governor General and probably did the job better than anyone else in my lifetime.

Trump, in context, was implying that the problem with Haiti and African countries was that the people are shitty, and the fact that he once again appears to be picking on black people takes us well past any reasonable interpretation of it as a coincidence. There is a damn big difference betwene observing that Haiti is a bad place to live because of earthquakes, deforestation, and a history of instability, and thus one feels very sorry for Haitians, and saying that Haiti sucks because of Haitians.

Additionally, suggesting immigrants should not be accepted from less pleasant countries is... well, it's fucking imbecilic. That's where the immigrants come from. Doyyyyyyy. You're not going to have people flooding in from the NICE countries. America has been built by people coming in from shitholes. Ireland was a shithole. Germany was a shithole, and Vietnam was a shithole, and Poland was a shithole, and the Phillippines, and on and on. That's why people leave those places. As it turned out, the problem wasn't the ordinary person, because they turned out just fine in America.

I see, what do you think of the comments that person I debated with said.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:58 PM
DrFidelius DrFidelius is offline
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"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That means we WANT people from "shithole" countries. That is part of America's mission statement, damnit.
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Old 01-14-2018, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BloodStalk View Post
I see, what do you think of the comments that person I debated with said.
I'm struggling to even understand what his point was.
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Old 01-14-2018, 03:32 PM
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Context is everything.

Look, I think a great many people have said Haiti is a shithole. Or a hellhole, or some other unpleasant description, and the reason we say that is because it is, in fact, an unpleasant country, as compared to almost all the other ones.

The thing is, if I say Haiti is a shithole, I am not saying there's anything wrong with Haitians. Haitians are unfortunate that their country, for many, many reasons beyond the control of Haitians, is an unpleasant place to live. That doesn't make HAITIANS shitty, it makes them unlucky. Haitians are as fine as anyone else, though. A Haitian immigrated to my country and became Governor General and probably did the job better than anyone else in my lifetime.

Trump, in context, was implying that the problem with Haiti and African countries was that the people are shitty, and the fact that he once again appears to be picking on black people takes us well past any reasonable interpretation of it as a coincidence. There is a damn big difference betwene observing that Haiti is a bad place to live because of earthquakes, deforestation, and a history of instability, and thus one feels very sorry for Haitians, and saying that Haiti sucks because of Haitians.

Additionally, suggesting immigrants should not be accepted from less pleasant countries is... well, it's fucking imbecilic. That's where the immigrants come from. Doyyyyyyy. You're not going to have people flooding in from the NICE countries. America has been built by people coming in from shitholes. Ireland was a shithole. Germany was a shithole, and Vietnam was a shithole, and Poland was a shithole, and the Phillippines, and on and on. That's why people leave those places. As it turned out, the problem wasn't the ordinary person, because they turned out just fine in America.
Agreed. Not all countries are created equal, and it's OK to criticize those places that aren't very good. Trump should have the sense to use more polite terms, at least in a professional setting, and it's a bit disingenuous to get too upset that he used a swear word. Saying they are "poor, undeveloped nations in which day to day life can be extremely unpleasant and dangerous" is effectively the same thing. Certainly I'm not above calling a shithole a shithole- to my friends. I'd never say it in the office.

I wish they wouldn't use the term slur on the news. To me, a slur implies a certain insult directed at a person, often without merit. Not an accurate if impolite description of a country.

All that said, I believe the context combined with other things he's said is what makes it so offensive. He said terrible things about Haitians and Ugandans (?) before (the all have AIDS and won't return to their huts after being here) AND he immediately followed it up with that bit about Norwegians being welcome, possibly the whitest people on earth. That's what pushes it from a possibly excusable gaffe to a nasty, bigoted statement.

You can't shake the devil's hand and say you didn't mean it- those who fail to condemn this crap are complicit.

Last edited by OldOlds; 01-14-2018 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 01-14-2018, 04:40 PM
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In my experience, Laos (as only one example of many I could name) is proof that the shittiest of shithole countries have some of the most fantastically friendly, generous, and interesting people on the planet.

And of course, Trump’s utterance and the defense of it is proof that the best country in the world has some real assholes.

Last edited by Ravenman; 01-14-2018 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:08 PM
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It's not the "shithole" think is the most offensive part. It's the "why".

A compassionate, educated American should not be asking why we'd have special preferences for immigrants coming from impoverished, war-torn, corrupt countries.

There's something really wrong with people that can't see how nasty and frightening this kind of ignorance is.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:08 PM
BloodStalk BloodStalk is online now
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FYI: This guy has posted tweets denying white privilige and racism exist because we had a black prez and denying police brutality towards blacks is an issue, claims that reverse racism and sexism exist and denying climate change, claims feminism ruins women and demonizes men and is about female supremacy and are not oppressed, said if you are called a Nazi, you are doing something right in life, denies Trump's travel ban has anything to do with Muslims, says not to jump to conclusion on bannon being racist and has sent me this:

people have different opinions and just having a different opinion or being on the other side of the political spectrum does not mean you are bigoted
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:03 PM
Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is online now
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You probably need to quit engaging with him.
It's not gonna end with you changing his mind.IMO
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Old 01-14-2018, 08:15 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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In my experience, Laos (as only one example of many I could name) is proof that the shittiest of shithole countries have some of the most fantastically friendly, generous, and interesting people on the planet. And of course, Trump’s utterance and the defense of it is proof that the best country in the world has some real assholes.
I missed the part where Trump was criticizing the people (or in context, those who wish to immigrate here) in these countries, just that the countries themselves were shitholes.

And before you bring up the "Mexico is sending their rapists" comment, are you saying that the friendly people you know from Laos are the ones wanting to immigrate here?

IOW, in this short thread, we have had many posters here agree that some countries are shitholes, but when Trump says it, it is bad because we all know that we hate Trump and that he is an asshole, so let's put this one on top of the pile.

Last edited by UltraVires; 01-14-2018 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 01-14-2018, 08:20 PM
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I was arguing with a right winger on twitter ...
There's your problem.
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Old 01-14-2018, 08:26 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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I missed the part where Trump was criticizing the people (or in context, those who wish to immigrate here) in these countries, just that the countries themselves were shitholes.
”Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?”

There is no other possible interpretation than people who come from shithole countries are undesirable.
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Old 01-14-2018, 08:53 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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”Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?”

There is no other possible interpretation than people who come from shithole countries are undesirable.
That's not an exact quote, it's a Dick Durbin paraphrase. We can't analyze this hearsay statement that (not that it matters) Trump denies saying.
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Old 01-14-2018, 08:57 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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And the even larger problem is how this will harm future negotiations.

Imagine if we have a disagreement on something, but we sit down and have a conversation about how to work it out. That's a good thing, right? But, suppose we can't work it out, and I want to embarass you by telling the media something you said in a frank discussion with me.

Are you going to want to try to work something out with me in the future? Are you going to lay your opinion or comment out there for me if I'm just going to use it against you?

No, there won't even be private, let alone public negotiations because it all gets put on CNN for a cheap political win.

The left still can't understand that this is WHY Trump got elected in the first place!

Last edited by UltraVires; 01-14-2018 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:05 PM
RickJay RickJay is online now
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The left still can't understand that this is WHY Trump got elected in the first place!
What are you talking about? Donald Trump was elected because CNN put up a comment he made 13 months after the election?
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:22 PM
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While "shithole" is an unpresidential term to use, there are, in fact, some countries that are quite shitty. Haven't numerous Dopers described North Korea, for instance, in equally blunt language?
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:27 PM
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I missed the part where Trump was criticizing the people (or in context, those who wish to immigrate here) in these countries, just that the countries themselves were shitholes.
He was talking about immigration, not foreign aid. He was talking about whether to let Haitians stay in the US. You know, the ones who left after the earthquake.
So don't pretend it isn't a racist comment about the people.
Quote:
And before you bring up the "Mexico is sending their rapists" comment, are you saying that the friendly people you know from Laos are the ones wanting to immigrate here?
In 2015, 35% of black immigrants from Africa - you know, that shithole continent - had a college degree. Which is higher than the percentage of Americans with one. So maybe the are.
Quote:
IOW, in this short thread, we have had many posters here agree that some countries are shitholes, but when Trump says it, it is bad because we all know that we hate Trump and that he is an asshole, so let's put this one on top of the pile.
Do you have any idea of what the word diplomacy means? Trump is not sitting in a bar complaining about other countries. He is (unfortunately) the President of the United States. He was in the Oval Office. He has to have some self control.
What he is doing is destroying the reputation of the United States throughout the world. Imagine someone competing with the Chinese for a deal in Africa now. Good luck with that.
Imagine Trump as the VP of sales of the Acme Corporation. His sales team is trying to close a big deal with S & H Enterprises. It is going well, until Trump posts on Twitter calling the S&H products crap and their CEO a moron. Is that what you want in a president? Because that seems to be what you are supporting.
  #29  
Old 01-14-2018, 09:28 PM
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While "shithole" is an unpresidential term to use, there are, in fact, some countries that are quite shitty. Haven't numerous Dopers described North Korea, for instance, in equally blunt language?
Some Dopers are not the President. Some Dopers comments are not covered by all the news media.
Get the difference?
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:54 PM
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I would fire any employee who demonstrated the level of unprofessionalism that Trump has demonstrated since he took office. I don't see why there should be an exception for the most important job in the country.
Yeah...It never ceases to amaze me what Trump apologists will now excuse in the President of the United States...and how much that standard has changed for them from what it was when Obama was President.

Quote:
While "shithole" is an unpresidential term to use, there are, in fact, some countries that are quite shitty.
In addition to what Voyager said, we are back at the point made by RickJay and others: The context is very important here. If he had said that the countries were shitholes and we have to do all we can to help people escape from them and make a better life for themselves, that would not have created nearly the uproar of saying they are shitholes and complaining about why we have to take in people from those countries.

And, it is not as if these comments were made in a vacuum. There is a pattern here: From the way he continued to insist that the Central Park Five were guilty in the face of compelling evidence otherwise to what he said about the White Supremacist Rally in Charlottesville, there is a pattern that is impossible to deny here.
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:01 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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That's not an exact quote, it's a Dick Durbin paraphrase. We can't analyze this hearsay statement that (not that it matters) Trump denies saying.
Lindsey Graham, who has golfed with Trump a whole bunch of times, is ignored in your handwaving? Well surprise, surprise, surprise.
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:09 PM
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What are you talking about? Donald Trump was elected because CNN put up a comment he made 13 months after the election?
Thus a new logical fallacy is born: Pre hoc, ergo propter hoc.
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:12 PM
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I would just add whether or not Trump or anyone else might subjectively perceive any country as a "shithole" doesn't mean that residents should not be allowed to immigrate here. One could argue the opposite is true.
Exactly this. There is a rather obvious reason why we don't get more immigrants from awesome countries such as Norway.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
While "shithole" is an unpresidential term to use, there are, in fact, some countries that are quite shitty. Haven't numerous Dopers described North Korea, for instance, in equally blunt language?
Other have explained the difference better, but I have to add that refugees/defectors from North Korea should be encouraged to do so, especially when they will tell us secrets that we need a lot of nowadays.
  #35  
Old 01-15-2018, 06:32 AM
septimus septimus is offline
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I missed the part where Trump was criticizing the people (or in context, those who wish to immigrate here) in these countries, just that the countries themselves were shitholes.
Wow! "Since 1973." It's taking longer than we thought, indeed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
That's not an exact quote, it's a Dick Durbin paraphrase. We can't analyze this hearsay statement that (not that it matters) Trump denies saying.
Double wow.
@ UltraViresSatisfy my curiosity, please. That Trump's sentence contained the phrase "shithole countries" is no longer in dispute. Please propose an alternate sentence with that phrase that he might have uttered in which the context was NOT to oppose immigration from these countries.

Thanks in advance. Should I hold my breath?
  #36  
Old 01-15-2018, 07:26 AM
Sage Rat Sage Rat is online now
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I agree that culture is not de facto a good thing. Most cultures are sexist, for example.

On the other hand, Trump didn't say that the countries were shitholes, he said that we don't want people from shithole countries. Our country was mostly populated by people from shithole countries (they've improved since), by people who wanted a chance to build something better and to be recognized for being honest and hard working, not screwed over by their local kleptocracy. So your friend's defense had nothing to do with the topic at hand. He changed the topic to something defensible and defended that, to placate you.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-15-2018 at 07:27 AM.
  #37  
Old 01-15-2018, 09:38 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
... That Trump's sentence contained the phrase "shithole countries" is no longer in dispute. ...
Really? When did that happen?

It seemed very much still in dispute yesterday.
  #38  
Old 01-15-2018, 09:51 AM
Lightnin' Lightnin' is offline
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"Elitist Dem voters called my beautiful state 'flyover country'. They're ignoring us, that's why I voted for Trump!" - Trump supporter, paraphrased, 2017

"Why are you so offended when Trump calls it like it is? Those countries are shitholes!" - Trump supporter, paraphrased, 2018

Honestly, I don't care what he thinks those countries are like... privately. But he's the voice of our nation. Most of us will never meet anyone from those countries, but they know who Trump is, and that he speaks for us. He's making us look rude, uncultured, and ignorant- he's basically every "ugly American" stereotype.

He's making enemies left and right, and all over the planet. Hell, England doesn't want him to come visit. Has he improved US relations with anyone? Who's going to have our back when things go sideways?
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  #39  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:02 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Originally Posted by Lightnin' View Post
Has he improved US relations with anyone?
I think our relationship with Israel is better than it was under Obama.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin' View Post
Who's going to have our back when things go sideways?
I suspect NATO and our other allies will "have our back" pretty much as much as they always have, which is to say, it's a bit of a mixed bag, but I'm not terribly concerned about it.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 01-15-2018 at 10:02 AM.
  #40  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:06 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Originally Posted by Lightnin' View Post
...Honestly, I don't care what he thinks those countries are like... privately. ...
He did say whatever he said in private. That's why there's no video or transcript available to clarify exactly what was said. It's just Dick Durbin leaking his version of what was said in a private meeting and President Trump's and others saying he didn't say that.
  #41  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:07 AM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
Among other things, yes. Not just for being unprofessional, but for being consistently unprofessional to a degree that warrants intervention.

I would fire any employee who demonstrated the level of unprofessionalism that Trump has demonstrated since he took office. I don't see why there should be an exception for the most important job in the country.
Except, of course, that impeachment and removal from office is supposed to be for "high Crimes and Misdemeanors" (as well as treason and bribery, neither of which we are discussing). There have been PLENTY of irresponsible, unprofessional Presidents in our past. None of them were impeached. And we really do not want impeachment to become a tool of simple political attack, which the Bill Clinton impeachment certainly came very close to being if it was not actually so.
  #42  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:35 AM
septimus septimus is offline
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He did say whatever he said in private. That's why there's no video or transcript available to clarify exactly what was said. It's just Dick Durbin leaking his version of what was said in a private meeting and President Trump's and others saying he didn't say that.
Several attendees including both D's and R's have confirmed the phrase.

Also not in dispute is that Trump and many Trumpists prevaricate with great enthusiasm. Just as denying evolution or denying climate science will lead you to inferior conclusions, so denying that Trump is a liar will make your analyses less valid and useful.

HTH.

Last edited by septimus; 01-15-2018 at 10:36 AM.
  #43  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:46 AM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
It's just Dick Durbin leaking his version of what was said in a private meeting and President Trump's and others saying he didn't say that.
Tim Scott said that Lindsey Graham told him Trump said it. How do you explain that?

And when Lindsey Graham said that he basically scolded the President right after the remark that you imply was fabricated, how do you think that came about?
  #44  
Old 01-15-2018, 11:43 AM
Bricker Bricker is offline
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Originally Posted by DrFidelius View Post
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That means we WANT people from "shithole" countries. That is part of America's mission statement, damnit.
No, it isn't.

It is part of a sonnet called "The New Colossus," written in 1883, by Emma Lazarus, donated to an auction intended to help raise funds for a pedestal for the Statue of Liberty on Bedloe's Island.

It's certainly an aspirational and uplifting piece of poetry, but we are a nation of laws and representative democracy, which means that we don't adopt a mission statement because of a poem on a statute, even a really really nice poem.

So if you want the mission statement of the United States to be, "We want people from 'shithole' countries," urge your chosen candidates to run on that theme. Best of luck!
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Last edited by Bricker; 01-15-2018 at 11:45 AM.
  #45  
Old 01-15-2018, 12:52 PM
BloodStalk BloodStalk is online now
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On the side, this person defended Trumps comments, has denied white privilige while complaining about racism againts whites(is silent when racism occurs to black and has even denounced Black Lives Matter), says those who bring race into everything are the real racist and yet claims they are not racist. I was wondering, what are your thoughts?

Last edited by BloodStalk; 01-15-2018 at 12:53 PM.
  #46  
Old 01-15-2018, 12:53 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Oh, and on the Sunday shows there was a theory floated that Trump actually said “shithouse countries.” Maybe Senator Purdue thinks saying shithole country is a... what did he say? A major misrepresentation?
  #47  
Old 01-15-2018, 01:41 PM
Lightnin' Lightnin' is offline
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I think our relationship with Israel is better than it was under Obama.
I guess that's one... but it certainly came at a cost, didn't it? Other Presidents have walked a tightrope between Israel and Palestine... Trump seems to have burned the whole thing down. I guess we'll see how that works out in the long run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I suspect NATO and our other allies will "have our back" pretty much as much as they always have, which is to say, it's a bit of a mixed bag, but I'm not terribly concerned about it.
He's not exactly making friends with NATO.
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  #48  
Old 01-15-2018, 02:01 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Tim Scott said that Lindsey Graham told him Trump said it. How do you explain that?
Sounds like the definition of hearsay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
And when Lindsey Graham said that he basically scolded the President right after the remark that you imply was fabricated, how do you think that came about?
I'm not trying to imply it was fabricated. I'm trying to clarify that the precise statement is still very much in dispute. Some people say he said "shithole", some people say he did not. Neither you nor I were there, and we don't have video or audio recordings so we don't know exactly what was said. We're relying on recollections and statements of the people involved, or people that heard from those people, none of whom I'd consider having perfectly unblemished records of exactness, precision, or honesty.

To the extent that yours, or septimus' arguments rely on the exact quote, they're on shaky, unproven ground.
  #49  
Old 01-15-2018, 02:02 PM
Voyager Voyager is offline
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And, it is not as if these comments were made in a vacuum. There is a pattern here: From the way he continued to insist that the Central Park Five were guilty in the face of compelling evidence otherwise to what he said about the White Supremacist Rally in Charlottesville, there is a pattern that is impossible to deny here.
Not in a vacuum is putting it mildly. Here is the list of Trump's racist statements, compiled by Dave Leonhardt.
  #50  
Old 01-15-2018, 02:05 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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I guess that's one... but it certainly came at a cost, didn't it? Other Presidents have walked a tightrope between Israel and Palestine... Trump seems to have burned the whole thing down. I guess we'll see how that works out in the long run.
Yeah, I don't know if it's going to work out well or not. You'd asked the question "Has he improved US relations with anyone?" That was an answer that came to mind that seemed fairly straightforward and clear. Whether ultimately that will be worth the downsides, we probably won't know for a while. I'm not blind to the possibility that it's not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin' View Post
I know he has made some antagonistic statements towards NATO. Your link says "the U.S. continues to be very supportive where it counts: on the ground" and I suspect NATO will continue to be as supportive of us as they have been in the past where it counts.
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