Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-14-2018, 11:22 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 14,290
Aziz Ansari, Sexual assault allegations

According to this article.

Most of her discomfort seems to have been internal and when expressed, he backed down. Twitter-verse is, of course, crucifying him (feminists) and her (the usual trolls), and its certainly true that at times a reasonable person should "get" non-verbal clues.
But how much can you expect until you start expecting people to become mind readers?
  #2  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:02 PM
BeenJammin BeenJammin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 241
There are probably more than a few women out there who would gleefully make baseless revenge accusations if they thought the guy had anything to lose, or if there was money in it for them.
  #3  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:31 PM
AK84 AK84 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 14,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeenJammin View Post
There are probably more than a few women out there who would gleefully make baseless revenge accusations if they thought the guy had anything to lose, or if there was money in it for them.
Is there a shrewd of evidence that she has that motivation?

Last edited by AK84; 01-14-2018 at 12:31 PM.
  #4  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:32 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 22,737
"I went on a date with a guy and he made passes at me!"

The horror... the horror.

If I missed a part where he did actually physically assault her, than I apologize.
__________________
Little packets of Fear and Outrage, sold like crack from your Computer and TV

"The worst things in the world are justified by belief" - U2, Raised by Wolves

Last edited by Chimera; 01-14-2018 at 12:32 PM.
  #5  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:32 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 14,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
Is there a shrewd of evidence that she has that motivation?
Awesome typo.
  #6  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:35 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW. ¥
Posts: 10,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeenJammin View Post
There are probably more than a few women out there who would gleefully make baseless revenge accusations if they thought the guy had anything to lose, or if there was money in it for them.
I found her account credible And a bit sad. But not particularly newsworthy.
  #7  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:59 PM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,996
I'm really not sure but this may be more of a case of different expectations and bad communication than sexual assault. When someone says they made "clear non-verbal signs" I'm reminded that people can overestimate how clear their non-verbal signs are. Feeling X very strongly in your own mind when you change your voice tone or make some other non-verbal sign doesn't mean X is clear to others. To this, add that courtship and sexual signals are often purposefully ambiguous.
  #8  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:09 PM
treis treis is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 9,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
"I went on a date with a guy and he made passes at me!"

The horror... the horror.

If I missed a part where he did actually physically assault her, than I apologize.
I would characterize it more as repeatedly and aggressively made passes after she communicated that she wanted them to stop.

That said, I agree with MichaelEmouse here. The story she told sounds like two people that need to mature and improve their communication skills around sex.
  #9  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:09 PM
Sam Lowry Sam Lowry is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
"I went on a date with a guy and he made passes at me!"

The horror... the horror.

If I missed a part where he did actually physically assault her, than I apologize.
If you call these actions making passes, then we have very different definitions for what that means, and I'm very glad that I've never been on a date where men made passes like this to me:

Quote:
She says Ansari began making a move on her that he repeated during their encounter. “The move he kept doing was taking his two fingers in a V-shape and putting them in my mouth, in my throat to wet his fingers, because the moment he’d stick his fingers in my throat he’d go straight for my vagina and try to finger me.” Grace called the move “the claw.”

Ansari also physically pulled her hand towards his penis multiple times throughout the night, from the time he first kissed her on the countertop onward. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”
Quote:
Halfway into the encounter, he led her from the couch to a different part of his apartment. He said he had to show her something. Then he brought her to a large mirror, bent her over and asked her again, “Where do you want me to fuck you? Do you want me to fuck you right here?” He rammed his penis against her ass while he said it, pantomiming intercourse.
This wasn't that she went up to his apartment and he tried to kiss her or invite her to the bedroom and stopped when she said no and was upset. It went much further than that.

Also as the article pointed out, Ansari is known as being "woke", as being sensitive and understanding what women go through and how crappy a lot of men are. It's in his stand-up, it's in his book, it's in his TV show. He seems like one of the good men. So I can definitely understand her freezing up and also thinking through what she said and did and wondering if she's sending signals or doing something wrong.
  #10  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:16 PM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,996
He does seem to have gone too fast. Repeatedly putting her hand on his genitals after she repeatedly took it away is also over the line.
  #11  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:16 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 37,986
Sounds like she didn't say no. She should have said no or left as soon as he headed in a direction she didn't like. And by her own admission she decided she was sexually assaulted after the fact.

In her narrative he sounds like a creep anyway, but I can't assume her account is objective.
  #12  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:52 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 22,737
Ok, moving her hand towards his genitals is over the line. Doing it more than once puts him solidly in 'Creep' territory and I hope that it severely impacts his future dating options.

But there also comes a point where someone needs to scream in her face "OK LADY, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL HERE?" Continuing to be there after repeated attempts at creepery crosses into mixed-messages territory and removes the 'completely blameless' from her side of the equation. At that point, he's thinking "Well she's not leaving..."
__________________
Little packets of Fear and Outrage, sold like crack from your Computer and TV

"The worst things in the world are justified by belief" - U2, Raised by Wolves
  #13  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:57 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Manor Farm
Posts: 16,898
This is an “article” on a clickbait website for which the otheer headlined stories are “EXCLUSIVE: Justin Bieber’s monkey is still traumatized from living with him”, “Period-trapping is the only way to find out if you’re in a relationship or not”, and “Once you realize Bella Hadid and ‘handsome’ Squidward look identical, there’s no going back”. Once this story is reported by some media organization that achieves at least a minimal threshold of fact checking and has any history of honest journalistic integrity I’ll start to give some credence to the more salacious details of the story beyond, ‘I went on a bad date with a celebrity who didn’t live up to my expectations.’

Stranger

Last edited by Stranger On A Train; 01-14-2018 at 01:57 PM.
  #14  
Old 01-14-2018, 02:27 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
According to this article.

Most of her discomfort seems to have been internal and when expressed, he backed down. Twitter-verse is, of course, crucifying him (feminists) and her (the usual trolls), and its certainly true that at times a reasonable person should "get" non-verbal clues.
But how much can you expect until you start expecting people to become mind readers?
According to the article, the clues were not all non-verbal. She said, out loud, that he was making her uncomfortable. He said, out loud, that okay, he would stop, and suggested they just sit on the couch and watch TV.

And they sat. And the TV came on. And he proceeded again to "make passes" (as someone above ludicrously described it) by directing her face towards his dick.

This is not an awkward case of non-verbal communication misunderstood. This is a person continually violating another person's express wishes.

The question of whether she should have left and when is actually immaterial to the more important question of how to characterize what he did and how to regard him after the fact. The latter is more important because our discussion of it here plausibly makes a difference in how we will proceed with things in our futures. The discussion of what she should or should have not done and when, on the other hand, is a pointless discussion for us, here to have. It has no implications for anything any of us might do in the future.
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
  #15  
Old 01-14-2018, 03:26 PM
Cartooniverse Cartooniverse is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Betwixt My Ears
Posts: 12,126
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
Awesome typo.
Shrew of evidence == stunning.

My two cents: the entire false accusation crowd needs to get over itself.

It really appears that there is virtually no body going down that road. People who are coming forward even after decades to make accusations are people who've endured something awful and are willing to run the gauntlet as a result.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
__________________
If you want to kiss the sky you'd better learn how to kneel.
  #16  
Old 01-14-2018, 03:33 PM
DSeid DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 19,922
Violating wishes by persisting in asking for sex and being a creep? Taking her narrative at face value, sure.

But while his behavior on this "date" as described was crude and rude (and I know not what is the expected etiquette of hook-ups in today's single world or if Ansari gets "groupies")
Quote:
He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured.
does not quite sound like a #metoo moment.

There are plenty of opportunities to misunderstand each other in "romantic" and sexual encounters and to experience the same event very differently.

But she was not his employee, and he did not have power over her in any way. This, as described, is not assault.
  #17  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:09 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,172
It sounds to me like Ansari pressed too hard, too fast, it caught her off guard. She changed her mind about wanting to get physical, but he thought he had consent and kept on pressuring her.

It's interesting that in his first couple of shows he deals with this very situation, his take being: "Wow, people go straight to sex in the first minute of the first date like it's normal. Modern dating is so crazy!" Now it sounds more like a fantasy than observational humor. And then we remember that Louis CK used his own show in the same way, using it to soft-peddle perversions that were already known on the whisper network (which he later admitted, let's not forget). So anyway...
Quote:
When Ansari told her he was going to grab a condom within minutes of their first kiss, Grace voiced her hesitation explicitly. “I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’” She says he then resumed kissing her, briefly performed oral sex on her, and asked her to do the same thing to him. She did, but not for long. “It was really quick. Everything was pretty much touched and done within ten minutes of hooking up, except for actual sex.”
It sounds like he ran his game so fast that she was taken totally by surprise. Then she was trying to figure out whether she wanted to try and salvage the date, while he assumed he had permission to play cat-and-mouse for another half hour with someone who kept turning away from him.

I can see how he would be confused about consent, because she didn't GTFO right up front. But I believe she was legit shellshocked. Ansari puts on a very public persona of being a nice and respectful guy, so of course she would be shocked. If there's any confusion, Ansari is responsible for creating it by putting on the pressure so fast and so hard to skate past the consent and preliminaries. I put that all on him.

I couldn't convict him in court but I hope he takes this as notice that he needs to cut the bullshit with the shock-and-awe approach.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 01-14-2018 at 04:11 PM.
  #18  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:33 PM
ZipperJJ ZipperJJ is offline
Just Lovely and Delicious
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 23,990
Don’t forget that she was 22 at the time of the date.

I found myself (a 38 yo woman) thinking “why don’t you leave?!” as I was reading. I had to remind myself that she is 22. Yes she is an adult but when it comes to adult dating situations she is a baby.
  #19  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:34 PM
Warm blood Warm blood is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
According to the article, the clues were not all non-verbal. She said, out loud, that he was making her uncomfortable. He said, out loud, that okay, he would stop, and suggested they just sit on the couch and watch TV.

And they sat. And the TV came on. And he proceeded again to "make passes" (as someone above ludicrously described it) by directing her face towards his dick.

This is not an awkward case of non-verbal communication misunderstood. This is a person continually violating another person's express wishes.

The question of whether she should have left and when is actually immaterial to the more important question of how to characterize what he did and how to regard him after the fact. The latter is more important because our discussion of it here plausibly makes a difference in how we will proceed with things in our futures. The discussion of what she should or should have not done and when, on the other hand, is a pointless discussion for us, here to have. It has no implications for anything any of us might do in the future.
No, it’s not immaterial or pointless. She wasn’t being held against her will, she was free to stop what was going on and leave. If you’re on a date with someone and they keep behaving in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, common sense dictates that you cut things short and leave. She stayed and went along with the proceedings without much protest. The onus shouldn’t be on him to read her mind. And she never told him to stop, she told him to slow down. That’s not the same thing as a flat out “no” or “stop”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZipperJJ View Post
Don’t forget that she was 22 at the time of the date.

I found myself (a 38 yo woman) thinking “why don’t you leave?!” as I was reading. I had to remind myself that she is 22. Yes she is an adult but when it comes to adult dating situations she is a baby.
I also really wish people would stop infantilising adults who are in their twenties. Chances are she’s NOT a “baby” in dating situations, and if she is really that immature that she can’t properly communicate her intentions then she shouldn’t date at all until she gets that sorted out.

20-somethings may be lacking in life experience but that doesn’t mean they lack accountability for their actions.

Last edited by Warm blood; 01-14-2018 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Quoting another post
  #20  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:40 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm blood View Post
No, it’s not immaterial or pointless. She wasn’t being held against her will, she was free to stop what was going on and leave. If you’re on a date with someone and they keep behaving in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, common sense dictates that you cut things short and leave. She stayed and went along with the proceedings without much protest. The onus shouldn’t be on him to read her mind. And she never told him to stop, she told him to slow down. That’s not the same thing as a flat out “no” or “stop”.
You didn't address the second part of my post that you bolded, even though that's where I actually offer my reasoning for calling the matter immaterial or pointless.

Whether something is material, or has a point, in a conversation, is relative to what that conversation can accomplish.

By talking about whether she should have left and when, what do you imagine you are accomplishing?

By talking about whether what he did was assault, on some kind of spectrum approaching assault, or what, and talking about what kind of person we should think he is after the fact, I imagine we can help accomplish a general education of men concerning the role they have in these situations and what kind of person they should be--a role, and a person-type which has too often been ignored and accepted as natural in the past

That's the material issue here. That's the point of conversations like this.

Talking about whether she should have left and when, educates women into fearfulness and self-blame. I am not saying no one should ever talk about that--she is surely thinking about it, and people she trusts have every right to address the issue within that trust. But a stranger talking to a stranger about what some other woman should have done in a situation like this--that goes nowhere good.
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
  #21  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:44 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 22,737
I'm reasonably certain that you don't get to tell us what we're allowed to discuss and the rights and wrongs of it, so please stop trying to bend the conversation to your control.
__________________
Little packets of Fear and Outrage, sold like crack from your Computer and TV

"The worst things in the world are justified by belief" - U2, Raised by Wolves
  #22  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:51 PM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,996
She seems to have eagerly courted him. She initiated the conversation, he initially ignored her and then they bonded over having the same hipster camera. She kept her eye on him through the night, gave him her phone number, flirted over text, went out on a date then came back to his place. Perhaps she had fantasied and pined for the possibility of her, a 22-year-old arriviste media person in the Big Apple having a relationship with a well-known actor and comedian with his own Netflix show. She may have been discombobulated by the fact that it was going to be a lot less romantic and social climbing than she expected and she was going to go from starstruck to just starfucked.


Again, not to take away from his pushiness and rudeness. HMS's comment about some comedians revealing their lesser selves through their comedy is apt.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 01-14-2018 at 04:53 PM.
  #23  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:54 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm blood View Post
And she never told him to stop, she told him to slow down. That’s not the same thing as a flat out “no” or “stop”.
It is hesitation to proceed with a sexual act. Hesitation shows discomfort. A decent person would register hesitation and pull back, read the situation, gently ask for questions. Ansari didn't do that, he kept playing cat-and-mouse when she was repeatedly expressing that she was hesitant or unsure. That's bullshit.

It is so sad as a father that in a couple of years, I'll have to look my daughter in the eyes and say "Even when a guy seems really nice and funny and considerate, and you really want to impress him, keep your keys handy and be ready to bring out your bitch at any time. Especially watch the nice boys, because everybody will believe them over you."
  #24  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:55 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 22,737
Now I'm sorry I didn't read the article completely, or any others. But this part clearly changes the game;

"She says he then resumed kissing her, briefly performed oral sex on her, and asked her to do the same thing to him. She did, but not for long."

Now we're quite clearly out of "he assaulted me" territory and into simple remorse. If you were uncomfortable, why did you remove your pants and allow this to happen? At some point, personal responsibility enters the picture.
__________________
Little packets of Fear and Outrage, sold like crack from your Computer and TV

"The worst things in the world are justified by belief" - U2, Raised by Wolves

Last edited by Chimera; 01-14-2018 at 04:56 PM.
  #25  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:06 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZipperJJ View Post
Don’t forget that she was 22 at the time of the date.

I found myself (a 38 yo woman) thinking “why don’t you leave?!” as I was reading. I had to remind myself that she is 22. Yes she is an adult but when it comes to adult dating situations she is a baby.
It's also easy to say "why don't you leave" when you already know how the movie ends. Nobody wants to go on a date thinking "Hey, this is nice, but keep the mace handy if he tries to steal 3rd base." Nobody wants that kind of date, which is why it shocks women, which is why men keep doing it.
  #26  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:20 PM
Warm blood Warm blood is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
You didn't address the second part of my post that you bolded, even though that's where I actually offer my reasoning for calling the matter immaterial or pointless.

Whether something is material, or has a point, in a conversation, is relative to what that conversation can accomplish.

By talking about whether she should have left and when, what do you imagine you are accomplishing?

By talking about whether what he did was assault, on some kind of spectrum approaching assault, or what, and talking about what kind of person we should think he is after the fact, I imagine we can help accomplish a general education of men concerning the role they have in these situations and what kind of person they should be--a role, and a person-type which has too often been ignored and accepted as natural in the past

That's the material issue here. That's the point of conversations like this.

Talking about whether she should have left and when, educates women into fearfulness and self-blame. I am not saying no one should ever talk about that--she is surely thinking about it, and people she trusts have every right to address the issue within that trust. But a stranger talking to a stranger about what some other woman should have done in a situation like this--that goes nowhere good.
Telling women they can exercise their right to end a situation with a man that’s not to their liking where it’s reasonable isn’t teaching them “fearfulness and self blame”, it’s teaching them agency and if you don’t think that has any place in a conversation about consent then no offense, but perhaps you’re not qualified to lead those conversations. It’s just as offensive to women act as though they have no ability to voice their feelings in such circumstances as it is to make rape prevention solely their responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
It is hesitation to proceed with a sexual act. Hesitation shows discomfort. A decent person would register hesitation and pull back, read the situation, gently ask for questions. Ansari didn't do that, he kept playing cat-and-mouse when she was repeatedly expressing that she was hesitant or unsure. That's bullshit.

It is so sad as a father that in a couple of years, I'll have to look my daughter in the eyes and say "Even when a guy seems really nice and funny and considerate, and you really want to impress him, keep your keys handy and be ready to bring out your bitch at any time. Especially watch the nice boys, because everybody will believe them over you."
She hesitated to proceed with sexual intercourse, so she told him to slow down and he did. She willingly performed other sex acts with him. I’m not saying Aziz is a good guy in this situation because it’s highly questionable to want to have sex with anyone who is less than enthusiastic about having sex with you. So absolutely he deserves blame for not making sure there was no ambiguity about her willingness. But her refusal to be more direct about what she really wanted and continuing to engage in sex with him when she was free to stop and leave hurts her claim to victimhood.
  #27  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:25 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,115
I'm not an expert, I don't really sleep around, and I'm not much of a lady's man, but I've been on a *couple* of dates.

It is not uncommon for a woman to ask you to slow down. I'm a guy, and it takes me about 15 milliseconds to get in the mood, especially in my 20's. It generally takes a bit longer for the woman to get into it, even if she is into you.

I've had sometimes when they asked me to slow down, and it ends up nothing happens that night, or any night thereafter, and I've had some women ask me to slow down, and they caught up with my level of excitement after a bit more time enjoying each other. I've also had a couple that said that they weren't in the mood and left, never to be seen again.

From her own description she was sending mixed signals. She later went to her friends and got them to "validate" her feelings that is was assault.

The concern that men have expressed on this board, and elsewhere, that normal dating miscues would be considered to be sexual assault, and they were assured that they were just being paranoid is what has been validated by this story, not her feelings of sexual assault. And as much as I resent the people that make up things like the red pill and the MRA, this will serve as the exact example that they are looking for. Her accusing him of assault when all it was was a bad date with mismatched expectations is fuel for their anti-woman rhetoric.
  #28  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:47 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Grabbing someone's hand and pulling it towards your genitals is sexual assault

How is this hard?

I can imagine cases where someone does this and it ends up leading to happy sex times. That doesn't change the fact that it was sexual assault. Why do you think it does? In such a case, it just means it's a sexual assault that happened not to end poorly. Still sexual assault. Still a thing that shouldn't be done.

I can imagine cases where some kind of implicit consent is given to the grabbing and pulling. Not sexual assault in that case, sure. But because it is very easy to claim one believed they had implicit consent when no consent was given, we should err on the side of not granting implicit consent existed, when it is called into question. Why should this be a problem?
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
  #29  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:49 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
I'm reasonably certain that you don't get to tell us what we're allowed to discuss and the rights and wrongs of it, so please stop trying to bend the conversation to your control.
I am not sure what you've misread here, but I am describing, in a way that is open to dialogue and correction if you think I'm wrong, what the effects of conversations can be, and I am making a claim about what this implies as to what it is best and not best to talk about. I'm not trying to "control the conversation" I'm trying to have one, by offering arguments which everyone is free to offer counter-arguments to.

Meanwhile, you have not replied in the same way, but have instead simply requested that I stop saying what I'm saying. That seems like a bit of pot and kettle...
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
  #30  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:50 PM
DSeid DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 19,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm blood View Post
... I also really wish people would stop infantilising adults who are in their twenties. ...
Seriously.

Hell, I have great confidence that my 16 year old is able to say a firm "No" in a manner that leaves no doubt and already has enough dating experience to not consent to something that she does not want to do because the male's insistence made her feel "pressured". Let's be real, the amount of dating experience needed for that is nil. It merely requires not being a jellyfish.


Frylock, to you the important question is "how we will proceed with things in our futures"?

Okay. I am going to stay married and be even more committed to getting through any tough patches. I am also going to continue to be think that none of us, male, female, fluid, whatever, would do too well if every single interaction we had was put under a microscope and put out for the world to critique. And I will continue to appreciate that others have different sexual mores than I do. Some live in hook up worlds.

Ansari thought he was in a situation in which a pretty young woman had been pursuing him with mutual physical attraction and that the night was centered around going back to his place to have sex. That belief must have been reinforced when she did not object to fairly immediately getting out of their clothes when they got to his place, her not objecting to having oral sex performed on her and then her performing some on him.

This was not her understanding. She was expecting the semi-fictional character created by Ansari that shares his name and was shocked that instead she was on date with someone who was more interested in a hook up with her than in a relationship with her. Yeah, a bit slow on the uptake she was. The quick let's get out of here and get back to my place, wasn't enough to key her in, and saying let's slow it down only occurred to her after they were both naked and had had a bit of mutual oral sex.

Of course at any point either party has the right to say no even if explicit (let alone merely understood) consent has been given earlier. But really this one is: "We got undressed and had a bit of oral sex, each giving and receiving. But then he asked for more of the same from me after I had asked to slow it down. And I willingly gave it to him. I've been violated!"
  #31  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:50 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I'm not an expert, I don't really sleep around, and I'm not much of a lady's man, but I've been on a *couple* of dates.

It is not uncommon for a woman to ask you to slow down. I'm a guy, and it takes me about 15 milliseconds to get in the mood, especially in my 20's. It generally takes a bit longer for the woman to get into it, even if she is into you.

I've had sometimes when they asked me to slow down, and it ends up nothing happens that night, or any night thereafter, and I've had some women ask me to slow down, and they caught up with my level of excitement after a bit more time enjoying each other. I've also had a couple that said that they weren't in the mood and left, never to be seen again.

From her own description she was sending mixed signals. She later went to her friends and got them to "validate" her feelings that is was assault.

The concern that men have expressed on this board, and elsewhere, that normal dating miscues would be considered to be sexual assault, and they were assured that they were just being paranoid is what has been validated by this story, not her feelings of sexual assault. And as much as I resent the people that make up things like the red pill and the MRA, this will serve as the exact example that they are looking for. Her accusing him of assault when all it was was a bad date with mismatched expectations is fuel for their anti-woman rhetoric.
Is sticking your fingers down a woman's throat a normal dating cue?

Is pulling a woman's hand towards your genitals a normal dating cue?

Is thrusting your dick in her face after she has already stated you are making her uncomfortable a normal dating cue?

Come on dude.
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
  #32  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:54 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm blood View Post
Telling women they can exercise their right to end a situation with a man that’s not to their liking where it’s reasonable isn’t teaching them “fearfulness and self blame”, it’s teaching them agency and if you don’t think that has any place in a conversation about consent then no offense, but perhaps you’re not qualified to lead those conversations. It’s just as offensive to women act as though they have no ability to voice their feelings in such circumstances as it is to make rape prevention solely their responsibility.
I expressed myself poorly.

Let's do the "what if it was my daughter" thing. With my daughter, with whom I have a relationship of deep trust, where she knows I have the best in mind for her, I will, on appropriate occasions, give her advice about what to do in a situation like this that includes firmly saying no and leaving.

ALSO, with my daughter, if it actually happens and she _doesn't_ firmly say no and leave, I will not, in a million years, say "you should have firmly said no and left." I will say "what an ass, I'm glad you are okay, and I know those situations can be really hard to think through in the moment. Tell me more about it!"

That's with my daughter. (Would you do any differently with yours?)

Why should we handle public incidents much differently than this? For the same reasons I would never in a million years, after the fact, focus on what my daughter should have done, should we not also never in a million years, after the fact, focus on what this woman should have done?

If I focused on that with my daughter, what message would she naturally take away? "Men are monsers, I fucked up, and I need to either just surrender and not complain next time, or avoid contact with men entirely." (That's an exaggeration but you see what I mean.) That's the message of "fearfulness" etc I was talking about.
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
  #33  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:57 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Manor Farm
Posts: 16,898
Okay, for the shitbird who sent an anonymous and vaguely threatening message to my private email, let’s review exactly what I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
This is an “article” on a clickbait website for which the otheer headlined stories are “EXCLUSIVE: Justin Bieber’s monkey is still traumatized from living with him”, “Period-trapping is the only way to find out if you’re in a relationship or not”, and “Once you realize Bella Hadid and ‘handsome’ Squidward look identical, there’s no going back”. Once this story is reported by some media organization that achieves at least a minimal threshold of fact checking and has any history of honest journalistic integrity I’ll start to give some credence to the more salacious details of the story beyond, ‘I went on a bad date with a celebrity who didn’t live up to my expectations.’
I did not “blame the victim”, defend a “probibilly rapeist [sic]”, or otherwise justify sexual assault or aggression. The account, if factual, likely meets the legal standard for physical and likely sexual assault; however, being published on a clickbait essayist site “for girls who don’t give a fuck,” which advertises itself as:
babe is into good news reporting, trash trends, personal stories, industry-leading analysis of fuckboys and the pettiest celebrity drama.
The site, by the way is owned by Tab Media Ltd, whose parent company is Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp, a news media company most famous in the journalism arena for publishing tabloids and Fox News, and whose attitude toward blatant character defamation is less “Get two or more sources and cross check between them,” and more, “Let them sue if that can’t take a libelous joke.”

As for the ‘article’ itself, the only fact checking indicated is having “spoke to the first friends she told about it, and reviewed the messages on her phone.” There is no indication that the editorial staff even did so much as to confirm that Ansari was even at the same event where the author claims to have met cute with him or city that the purported assault occurred in, much less any confirming details such as verifying the restaurant detail or Uber ride. This is basic journalism, and yes, you won’t find it being done on the “news” that you read on your niece’s Facebook page or by Alex Jones, which is the very reason you should take anything you read or hear from these sources not only with question but active skepticism if you haven’t seen it from a source with some vague history of credibility of any kind.

I don’t know the claimant or have any way to assess her credibility (although selling a story to a site which bundles salacious content for aggregators does not give any reason to assume that she skews toward ‘more ethical’ in her personal life) but if the behavior is as aggressive as reported then it certainly wouldn’t be the first time that the subject behaved in such a fashion, and we can expect a storm of #MeToo responses with corresponding details that can be crosschecked to see if they line up. To date, every famous personality who has been credibly accused of sexual assault or harassment in the past year has seen multiple allegations due to a pervasive pattern of abusive behavior which you’d expect of someone who uses power or celebrity to force themselves on others. So, if we see more women coming forward to claim that Ansari was abusive or took advantage of their supposed naïveté to force them into unwanted sex then we can assign some credibility to the story beyond what as some anonymous woman wrote on a sensationalistic clickbait site with no editorial review.

Stranger
  #34  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:57 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
"We got undressed and had a bit of oral sex, each giving and receiving. But then he asked for more of the same from me after I had asked to slow it down. And I willingly gave it to him. I've been violated!"
Dseid what is your theory as to why she spent the car ride home crying?
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
  #35  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:59 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 22,737
Well let's start by discarding the baseline assumption that women are not adults and have no personal responsibility for their own behavior. That seems to be the underlying, unspoken foundation of all defenses of her actions. She's 22. Yes, she's young and relatively inexperienced, but she is still an adult and responsible for her own actions. She and others don't get to explain that away and then blame him for everything that happened.
__________________
Little packets of Fear and Outrage, sold like crack from your Computer and TV

"The worst things in the world are justified by belief" - U2, Raised by Wolves

Last edited by Chimera; 01-14-2018 at 06:00 PM.
  #36  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:00 PM
DSeid DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 19,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
Grabbing someone's hand and pulling it towards your genitals is sexual assault

How is this hard? ...
That's what she said? (Ducks and runs.)

But seriously, if I was single and on a date and at a point in a sexual encounter after having gotten undressed and after having performed oral sex on each other, I do not think the other person's grabbing my hand and moving to where it was desired would be sexual assault. I think it would be sexual communication.

Context is key.
  #37  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:01 PM
Sam Lowry Sam Lowry is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
It is not uncommon for a woman to ask you to slow down. I'm a guy, and it takes me about 15 milliseconds to get in the mood, especially in my 20's. It generally takes a bit longer for the woman to get into it, even if she is into you.

I've had sometimes when they asked me to slow down, and it ends up nothing happens that night, or any night thereafter, and I've had some women ask me to slow down, and they caught up with my level of excitement after a bit more time enjoying each other. I've also had a couple that said that they weren't in the mood and left, never to be seen again.

From her own description she was sending mixed signals. She later went to her friends and got them to "validate" her feelings that is was assault.
When a woman asks for you to slow down, do you keep putting her hand on your penis? When she asks to chill out do you sit on the couch with her and point to your dick and make her feel pressured to go down on you? Do you keep cutting off her path as she tries to move away from you? And then stick your fingers down her throat once you've cut off her path? I'm hoping and assuming not. From the article:

Quote:
But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.”

Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was. “Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”
I don't quite understand what mixed signals people are seeing, unless they are just saying that the mere fact that she didn't run out of the apartment screaming is a signal that she wanted to have sex. I don't have a huge dating history, but if I was with someone and they were pulling away and mumbling and kept moving away from me in my apartment, I wouldn't read that a signal to keep trying. They did have oral sex quickly after getting in the apartment despite her being uncomfortable with how quickly things escalated, but just because some sexual activity happened doesn't mean that all things are allowed now. I assume that if you got someone back to your place and you let them go down on you doesn't mean you are also signing off immediately on them tying you up and sticking the Fist of Fury dildo up your ass on your first date. You can consent to one act without consenting to others.

Maybe her signals of "no I do not want this!" were not obvious enough (though it sounds to me like they were), but it definitely doesn't sound like she was sending signals of "yes please I want to have sex with you." Not really a case of mixed signals, more like paying attentions to the signals I want to see and ignoring the ones I don't want to see.

Also from reading on Twitter, I've read a few comments on how there have been rumors about him. I hope there aren't any more stories, because I don't want there to have been any other women who went through similar experiences, I hope that he just had a one night time of wildly bad misjudgment. But if there are other stories I hope they come out and women feel safe sharing their experiences.
  #38  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:01 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
Well let's start by discarding the baseline assumption that women are not adults and have no personal responsibility for their own behavior. That seems to be the underlying, unspoken foundation of all defenses of her actions.
Is that supposed to be addressed to me? I ask because I don't understand where you get tha assumption out of anything I wrote. I've said quite the opposite, for example, in my last post where I use the "what if it were my daughter" trope.
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
  #39  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:02 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,469
NM

Last edited by msmith537; 01-14-2018 at 06:03 PM.
  #40  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:02 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
That's what she said? (Ducks and runs.)

But seriously, if I was single and on a date and at a point in a sexual encounter after having gotten undressed and after having performed oral sex on each other, I do not think the other person's grabbing my hand and moving to where it was desired would be sexual assault. I think it would be sexual communication.

Context is key.
It can be both...
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
  #41  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:03 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,469
NM
  #42  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:03 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 22,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Lowry View Post
Maybe her signals of "no I do not want this!" were not obvious enough (though it sounds to me like they were), but it definitely doesn't sound like she was sending signals of "yes please I want to have sex with you."
Except for the entire 'mutual oral sex' part.
__________________
Little packets of Fear and Outrage, sold like crack from your Computer and TV

"The worst things in the world are justified by belief" - U2, Raised by Wolves
  #43  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:05 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
Except for the entire 'mutual oral sex' part.
Do you think that once consent is given, it can't be taken away?

Do you think that after a sexual act, saying "no" to other sex acts is just a coy way of saying "yes"?

Or something?
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
  #44  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:16 PM
DSeid DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 19,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
Dseid what is your theory as to why she spent the car ride home crying?
As already written. But I will make it more explicit. She was imagining that she was on a first date as part of a relationship that she already had in her head with the semi-fictional character Aziz Ansari who she thought saw her as someone to have a long term relationship with. It took her a while to realize that she was not. That the real person she just had received cunnilingus from and given oral sex to was not actually the person she had created in her head, and that that real person was less interested in a long term relationship with her than in having somewhat meaningless recreational sex with an attractive young woman who was, he believed, physically attracted to him and also interested in a bit of recreational no strings attached sex. Nothing wrong with mutually desired emotionally meaningless recreational sex mind you. But for her the realization that this star was not thinking of her as long term relationship material but instead as someone to have a fun hook up with, hurt.

Last edited by DSeid; 01-14-2018 at 06:17 PM.
  #45  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:19 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 22,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
Do you think that once consent is given, it can't be taken away?

Do you think that after a sexual act, saying "no" to other sex acts is just a coy way of saying "yes"?

Or something?
No, I'm saying that she seems to have willingly (if perhaps reluctantly) participated in activities that she later regretted. Congratulations to her, she's human. We've all done that. It doesn't automatically invalidate her responsibility for her own actions or make all of his actions retroactively criminal.
__________________
Little packets of Fear and Outrage, sold like crack from your Computer and TV

"The worst things in the world are justified by belief" - U2, Raised by Wolves
  #46  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:24 PM
DSeid DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 19,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
It can be both...
Yes but it certainly is not by definition assault as you state. It would be only if it is clear that consent has been withdrawn. A "go slower" is not such withdrawal of consent; it is an instruction of how to continue to proceed, subject to the perception the partner had of what the intended speed had been.
  #47  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:27 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
Dseid what is your theory as to why she spent the car ride home crying?
That she was let down that her fabulous date with a celebrity wan't all sunshine and rainbows as she fantasized it would be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Lowry View Post
When a woman asks for you to slow down, do you keep putting her hand on your penis? When she asks to chill out do you sit on the couch with her and point to your dick and make her feel pressured to go down on you? Do you keep cutting off her path as she tries to move away from you? And then stick your fingers down her throat once you've cut off her path? I'm hoping and assuming not. From the article:
I think you misunderstood the "path" part. He wasn't cutting her off, he was not restraining her or keeping her from leaving. She was just talking about the "path" that the date took through the night.

And yea, if she just says she wants to slow down, that does not mean that sex is off the table, just that I need to work a bit harder to make her more interested, heighten her excitement. Sometimes, a girl says slow down, and then after a bit of talking and maybe cuddling, things go back to kissing, then to fondling, then... well. Sometimes nothing comes of it.

Are you saying that when a girl says slow down, that means to stop? She never said to stop, just to slow down.

From the article
Quote:
“Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling.
I have never enjoyed receiving oral sex, so that part, I couldn't tell you, I've never offered myself in that fashion. In any case, they were both still naked.
Quote:

I don't quite understand what mixed signals people are seeing, unless they are just saying that the mere fact that she didn't run out of the apartment screaming is a signal that she wanted to have sex.
You don't have to run out of an apartment screaming in order to say "No", or "Stop", or "Not tonight, I'd like to get to know you better first", or "Not tonight, I don't feel well", or to just walk out of the apartment without screaming or running involved at all. IT is not a binary choice, her only option was not to run out of the apartment screaming. She had words, she could use them. She had agency, she could exercise it.
Quote:
I don't have a huge dating history, but if I was with someone and they were pulling away and mumbling and kept moving away from me in my apartment, I wouldn't read that a signal to keep trying. They did have oral sex quickly after getting in the apartment despite her being uncomfortable with how quickly things escalated, but just because some sexual activity happened doesn't mean that all things are allowed now. I assume that if you got someone back to your place and you let them go down on you doesn't mean you are also signing off immediately on them tying you up and sticking the Fist of Fury dildo up your ass on your first date. You can consent to one act without consenting to others.
You like to go to extremes, don't you? How about, if someone comes onto you in public, asks for a date, then comes to your place and engages in oral sex with you, then there is a reasonable belief that they want more. If they do not say that they do not want more, if they just mumble and pull away, what are you supposed to do with that?
Quote:
Maybe her signals of "no I do not want this!" were not obvious enough (though it sounds to me like they were), but it definitely doesn't sound like she was sending signals of "yes please I want to have sex with you." Not really a case of mixed signals, more like paying attentions to the signals I want to see and ignoring the ones I don't want to see.
At all points, when she was hitting on him in public, and at the restaurant, and agreeing to go back to his place, those are all sending signals of "yes, please I want to have sex with you." As she never did send a clear signal of "No, I do not want to do this!" I don't understand how you can not see this as mixed signals.
Quote:
Also from reading on Twitter, I've read a few comments on how there have been rumors about him. I hope there aren't any more stories, because I don't want there to have been any other women who went through similar experiences, I hope that he just had a one night time of wildly bad misjudgment. But if there are other stories I hope they come out and women feel safe sharing their experiences.
I think Aziz is a terrible comedian, and I hated his show master of none. I have nothing vested in him. I just don't see how what he did was such a terrible thing that he needs to be dragged through the social media shame alley.

If other stuff comes out, and it turns out that he is a horrible person, then sure, whatever, vilify him all you want, for the stuff he did. For this story, that is told from her perspective so is giving her the benefit of the doubt on everything, I'm not really seeing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
Do you think that once consent is given, it can't be taken away?

Do you think that after a sexual act, saying "no" to other sex acts is just a coy way of saying "yes"?
Did she say "no"?
Quote:
Or something?
She did mumble, but even she doesn't articulate what it was that she mumbled.
  #48  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:28 PM
Riemann Riemann is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Santa Fe, NM, USA
Posts: 4,045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm blood View Post
Telling women they can exercise their right to end a situation with a man that’s not to their liking where it’s reasonable isn’t teaching them “fearfulness and self blame”, it’s teaching them agency...
Exactly. The notion that a woman of 22 does not have agency and cannot take responsibility for her own actions is ridiculous. Women have the right to decline sex, and also the right to choose an active sex life if they wish, and either choice should be respected. The flip side of some men ignoring women who say "no", is some men (and indeed some women) labeling women who say "yes" as sluts. But autonomy and agency means on the one hand that other people should respect your decisions, while on the other that you yourself own your decisions, some of which will no doubt be bad ones.

If this young woman is taking things to the level of public accusation, she has taken things beyond the question of whether Anzari is a bit of a horny jerk or socially inept, which he may be, to whether he acted improperly, either ethically or legally. And there's nothing in her story that suggests he did. Her own story is that he persisted in trying to go faster than she wanted, hardly unusual for a young man on a date with a young woman; but that he did not cross the bright line to ignoring requests to stop or physically coercing her, and that she continued as a willing participant. If you agree to give someone oral sex, the fact that you don't do it for long and later regret it doesn't mean it was assault or coercion, it means you made a bad decision.

Last edited by Riemann; 01-14-2018 at 06:31 PM.
  #49  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:30 PM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,996
She seems to have been confused about what she wanted or didn't want at that time and place. How could he have a clearer idea of what she wanted than she herself did?


In this discussion, we may want to distinguish between unsavory/rude/creepy behavior and sexual assault. If I were a woman, I'd never want to date him and would advise others not to but I don't think it's sexual assault. The woman in question is too insecure, confused and eager to transform her disappointment over the loss of an imagined relationship into blaming him for sexual assault.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 01-14-2018 at 06:34 PM.
  #50  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:39 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
As already written. But I will make it more explicit. She was imagining that she was on a first date as part of a relationship that she already had in her head with the semi-fictional character Aziz Ansari who she thought saw her as someone to have a long term relationship with. It took her a while to realize that she was not. That the real person she just had received cunnilingus from and given oral sex to was not actually the person she had created in her head, and that that real person was less interested in a long term relationship with her than in having somewhat meaningless recreational sex with an attractive young woman who was, he believed, physically attracted to him and also interested in a bit of recreational no strings attached sex. Nothing wrong with mutually desired emotionally meaningless recreational sex mind you. But for her the realization that this star was not thinking of her as long term relationship material but instead as someone to have a fun hook up with, hurt.
How would you argue that your understanding of why she was crying is different from her understanding of why she was crying?
__________________
hopelessgeneralist.blogspot.com
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017