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Old 01-16-2018, 03:47 PM
BloodStalk BloodStalk is offline
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Is this person bigoted/racist?

This is related to my last thread when I was debating this person:
So on twitter, this conservative guy said this on Trump's shithole comment:

"For those who are mad at Trump for saying some countries are shitholes, I urge you to MOVE to one of those countries and see for yourself. Until then, stop pretending you know what the world outside your PC echo-chamber is like, because you don't."""

I called him out for this tweet and called him a racist and here is what he said:

"I was trying to do was just calm people down over the comment Trump made and say that he was just talking about how there are SOME dangerous people in the country and that there are crime issues, not go after the entire race as a whole. I have immigrant relatives who come from countries that are a bit unstable and I am perfectly aware that not all immigrants are bad people. If it weren't for immigration, my mother and father never would have met so I'm a product of it. Please understand, it was never my intention to bash immigrants, I just don't like it when people take things out of context. I should have been more careful with what I said but let's not dwell on that anyway.

I tend to make jokes and constructive criticisms about things in the news that irritate me as a way to cope with it and keep myself from getting angry. This does NOT equal racism. People on both sides do this all the time, but remember, there are good apples on both sides".

As well on twitter, he claims that white privilige is non existent because Obama was prez and he talks about reverse racism against whites while being silent on issues that happen to black people. He has also denounced black lives matter, saying they have killed cops due to race during protest (though he believes most BLM protesters are non violent) and claims people who bring race into everything are the real racist. He also said if you get called racist/nazi/fascist for your views, you are doing something right in your life and has said that holding right wing views is not bigoted.

He claims his comment was not offensive and he is not bigoted at all and calls me a bully for calling him for his shit. This was my response to his above comment:

"Dude, shut up. You haven't been to any of these countries. I'm from one of these so called 'shitholes' along with many others and it's nothing like you claim. Why the hell are you acting like you've been there, when you haven't, you ignorant idiot.
It's disgusting how you believe in such racist bullshit and yet you admire (misellecanous), which is the opposite of what you believe. I hope your exposed for your bigotry and get banned from being a vendor as honestly, we do not need real shitholes like you."


So, does this sound like a racist to you? If not, it sounds borderline to me honestly.
  #2  
Old 01-16-2018, 03:54 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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No, it's not racist. Calling some countries shitholes is not racist.
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:58 PM
running coach running coach is online now
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No, it's not racist. Calling some countries shitholes is not racist.
Since the countries called out have populations that are generally non-white and the insult implied that the people themselves are worthless due to the country they live in, it's racist. Especially since Trump is known to be a racist.
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Old 01-16-2018, 04:03 PM
BloodStalk BloodStalk is offline
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I mean his other views listed here:

As well on twitter, he claims that white privilige is non existent because Obama was prez and he talks about reverse racism against whites while being silent on issues that happen to black people. He has also denounced black lives matter, saying they have killed cops due to race during protest (though he believes most BLM protesters are non violent) and claims people who bring race into everything are the real racist. He also said if you get called racist/nazi/fascist for your views, you are doing something right in your life and has said that holding right wing views is not bigoted.
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Old 01-16-2018, 04:05 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by running coach View Post
Since the countries called out have populations that are generally non-white and the insult implied that the people themselves are worthless due to the country they live in, it's racist. Especially since Trump is known to be a racist.
Sure, but I thought the OP was talking about someone else calling a place a shithole, not Trump.
  #6  
Old 01-16-2018, 04:06 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by BloodStalk View Post
I mean his other views listed here:

As well on twitter, he claims that white privilige is non existent because Obama was prez and he talks about reverse racism against whites while being silent on issues that happen to black people. He has also denounced black lives matter, saying they have killed cops due to race during protest (though he believes most BLM protesters are non violent) and claims people who bring race into everything are the real racist. He also said if you get called racist/nazi/fascist for your views, you are doing something right in your life and has said that holding right wing views is not bigoted.
That's not racist either. It's just incredibly moronic. Don't waste your time trying to argue with such a person.
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Old 01-16-2018, 04:07 PM
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Since the countries called out have populations that are generally non-white and the insult implied that the people themselves are worthless due to the country they live in, it's racist. Especially since Trump is known to be a racist.
I don't think so, I think this is a racist world leader made and a very undiplomatic remark. I don't think the "shithole countries" part was racist. The instead getting more "immigrants from countries like Norway" is what made it racist.

Calling Haiti a shit-hole country is basically accurate and not racist. Saying it is a shit-hole country and always will be because of the people would be very racist.
  #8  
Old 01-16-2018, 04:11 PM
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The dude was rying to defend Trump's racist statement, which at least puts him at Probably Racist. The claim that calling a place a shithole can't be a racist thing to say ignores with willful ignorance that the implication is that the people from these places are unworthy to come here. That's where the racism comes in, and it was an insult to the people from these places. Acting as though the statement merely refererrd to a place is where the willful ignorance comes in.
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Old 01-16-2018, 04:20 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is online now
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'Shithole' is not racist. Calling an African country a 'shithole' is not racist. Trump has shown plenty of indications of racism though, the Norway comment following the 'shithole' is an indication, but there's just so much more going far back in time.

Keep in mind that Trump has manipulated the press and the politicians here. He has failed to do anything about DACA or immigration in general and once again the story has become his little tantrum instead of the actual subject. We can assume someone who would make statements with racist connotations, added onto his long history of such talk, is either a racist, or even worse because he'd be exploiting racism in others.
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Old 01-16-2018, 04:24 PM
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Trump's comments are not racist because he called some countries shitholes, they are racist because he wants white people to come here over black and brown people. I find it hard not to take any defense of those comments as supporting a racist position. Which makes one a racist, no matter how much that triggers Trump supporters.

Last edited by DigitalC; 01-16-2018 at 04:25 PM.
  #11  
Old 01-16-2018, 04:46 PM
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It's circular reasoning. What he said is racist because he is a racist because what he said is racist.

:shrugs:

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Shodan
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Old 01-16-2018, 04:52 PM
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No, nothing circular. Trump said something racist. I thought the question was: Is the guy defending the racist statement racist?
  #13  
Old 01-16-2018, 04:55 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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No it is not racist because the guy mistakenly believes that the reason people are mad is simply because Trump said some countries are shitholes. So he is defending the President's calling countries shitholes without actually learning the real reason why people are mad about the statement.
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BloodStalk View Post
This is related to my last thread when I was debating this person:
So on twitter, this conservative guy said this on Trump's shithole comment:

"For those who are mad at Trump for saying some countries are shitholes, I urge you to MOVE to one of those countries and see for yourself. Until then, stop pretending you know what the world outside your PC echo-chamber is like, because you don't."""

I called him out for this tweet and called him a racist and here is what he said:
Sorry, but some of those countries are indeed shit-holes. I can't speak for Haiti and the central American countries but Africa south and east of the Sahara has many shit-holes. Some of those shit-holes are trying very hard - and succeeding - in not being shit-holes any more but it's a long road.

Now, as President, Trump was stupid to say it. But his stupidity is already well-attested.
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:06 PM
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I can hardly think of a case in which someone asked "Is this racist?" when it wasn't. In this particular instance, the racism isn't as dominant as the belligerent stupidity, however.
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BloodStalk View Post
I mean his other views listed here:

As well on twitter, he claims that white privilige is non existent because Obama was prez and he talks about reverse racism against whites...
He's a racist, at least the pig-ignorant type.
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  #17  
Old 01-16-2018, 05:17 PM
BloodStalk BloodStalk is offline
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So, is his defense racist:
"I was trying to do was just calm people down over the comment Trump made and say that he was just talking about how there are SOME dangerous people in the country and that there are crime issues, not go after the entire race as a whole. I have immigrant relatives who come from countries that are a bit unstable and I am perfectly aware that not all immigrants are bad people. If it weren't for immigration, my mother and father never would have met so I'm a product of it. Please understand, it was never my intention to bash immigrants, I just don't like it when people take things out of context. I should have been more careful with what I said but let's not dwell on that anyway.


It makes me so mad when people use 'taking things out of context" as an excuse.

Was my response too harsh. I said this:
"Dude, shut up. You haven't been to any of these countries. I'm from one of these so called 'shitholes' along with many others and it's nothing like you claim. Why the hell are you acting like you've been there, when you haven't, you ignorant idiot.
It's disgusting how you believe in such racist bullshit and yet you admire (misellecanous), which is the opposite of what you believe. I hope your exposed for your bigotry and get banned from being a vendor as honestly, we do not need real shitholes like you."
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:31 PM
bobot bobot is offline
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...
Was my response too harsh. I said this:
"Dude, shut up. You haven't been to any of these countries. I'm from one of these so called 'shitholes' along with many others and it's nothing like you claim. Why the hell are you acting like you've been there, when you haven't, you ignorant idiot.
It's disgusting how you believe in such racist bullshit and yet you admire (misellecanous), which is the opposite of what you believe. I hope your exposed for your bigotry and get banned from being a vendor as honestly, we do not need real shitholes like you."
Sounds like you might have come across a little harsh. But then again, I don't know the guy.
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:33 PM
Hector_St_Clare Hector_St_Clare is offline
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Originally Posted by BloodStalk View Post
This is related to my last thread when I was debating this person:
So on twitter, this conservative guy said this on Trump's shithole comment:

"For those who are mad at Trump for saying some countries are shitholes, I urge you to MOVE to one of those countries and see for yourself. Until then, stop pretending you know what the world outside your PC echo-chamber is like, because you don't."""
I've lived in an African country which was then and now one of the 10-15 poorest in the world. I certainly wouldn't call it a sh*thole. People there were quite aware of the fact their country was poor. They wouldn't take kindly to it being called a "sh*thole" any more than people in Louisiana or Mississipi, or for that matter Puerto Rico or West Virginia, enjoy it when people in richer American states refer to their homes as sh*tholes either. People there also found plenty of joy in their lives and I'm dubious that, extreme situations aside, the term "sh*thole* has much objective meanibng anyway.

Being a poor country doesn't make your country worthy of contempt, to state the obvious, any more than an individual person being poor, sick, disabled or whatever else makes you worthy of contempt.
  #20  
Old 01-16-2018, 06:43 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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I've lived in an African country which was then and now one of the 10-15 poorest in the world. I certainly wouldn't call it a sh*thole. People there were quite aware of the fact their country was poor. They wouldn't take kindly to it being called a "sh*thole" any more than people in Louisiana or Mississipi, or for that matter Puerto Rico or West Virginia, enjoy it when people in richer American states refer to their homes as sh*tholes either. People there also found plenty of joy in their lives and I'm dubious that, extreme situations aside, the term "sh*thole* has much objective meanibng anyway.

Being a poor country doesn't make your country worthy of contempt, to state the obvious, any more than an individual person being poor, sick, disabled or whatever else makes you worthy of contempt.
I don't think people are saying that a country is a shithole simply because it's poor. There are other things that factor in. (Now whether or not TRUMP meant that is another story)

Simply defining a place as a "shithole" isn't necessarily racist. Saying that a country is a shithole, and thus the people from there are somehow tainted, is what's racist. There are countries out there that royally suck, but that doesn't mean the people who live there are bad people.
Basically, his comment smacked of the whole, "No Irish Need Apply", separate water fountains, "we don't want THOSE people over here", blah blah blah.
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:07 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
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I don't want to threadshit, but I do want to question your premise--namely, that we're interested in arguing about your argument with someone else. Issues are interesting, but some nameless dude on your FB wall isn't. Would it be possible to redirect this thread toward underlying issues, and abandon discussion of your discussion?
  #22  
Old 01-16-2018, 08:14 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Trump's statement was definitely racist: He wasn't just saying that the countries were shitholes; he was saying that we didn't want immigrants from shithole countries. The immigrants aren't taking their country with them, so he's not actually insulting the countries; he's insulting the people.

Anyone defending a statement which is so clearly racist is probably also racist, but there's an outside chance that they're just an idiot (and of course, a very good chance that they're both racist and an idiot).
  #23  
Old 01-16-2018, 10:48 PM
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Trump's statement was definitely racist: He wasn't just saying that the countries were shitholes; he was saying that we didn't want immigrants from shithole countries. The immigrants aren't taking their country with them, so he's not actually insulting the countries; he's insulting the people.

Anyone defending a statement which is so clearly racist is probably also racist, but there's an outside chance that they're just an idiot (and of course, a very good chance that they're both racist and an idiot).
So, the characteristics of a country don't have much dependency on those who make up the country? How do these characteristics come into being?

Now the problem is when all problems of a country are blamed on each person from that country. Of course, that's a gross simplification. But so is the the implication that a country's nature is independent of its residents.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:46 AM
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So, the characteristics of a country don't have much dependency on those who make up the country? How do these characteristics come into being?

Now the problem is when all problems of a country are blamed on each person from that country. Of course, that's a gross simplification. But so is the the implication that a country's nature is independent of its residents.
This is the EXACT point I was trying to make in a Pit thread... Bad choice of venue I suppose.
I had been focusing on the statement, absent any implications one would make of it, but maybe my words were too incendiary.

I admire your eloquently chosen words, octopus
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:18 AM
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So, the characteristics of a country don't have much dependency on those who make up the country? How do these characteristics come into being?
There are many factors that can strongly influence a country's situation that are exogenous to the individual personalities that inhabit the nation. Is the country landlocked, or does it have ocean access and ports? Is it resource rich? How suitable is it for agriculture, either subsistence agriculture or growing crops for export? What are the geopolitical circumstances with regard to its neighbors (for example, it's pretty clear that South Africa intervened in Mozambique in ways that made their civil war nastier and bloodier).

I could go on, but you get the idea. I hope.
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:15 AM
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So, the characteristics of a country don't have much dependency on those who make up the country?
Not on the mere fact of their nationality or ethnicity, no. Shithole conditions in a country are very contingent and complex, involving a whole bunch of factors ranging all the way from geographic and climatic conditions to colonial history. It's ridiculous to try to blame them on some inherent deficiency in the country's citizens. Especially on the ones who are dissatisfied enough to want to leave the country in the first place.

To take an example closer to home, white Protestants of British descent dominate some of the wealthiest and best-educated communities in the US, and also some of the poorest and least-educated. There are plenty of majority-white shitholes in the US.

But the racists who are eager to blame the tribulations of, say, Haiti or Rwanda on some innate deficiency in their citizens somehow never seem willing to blame white American shitholery on the innate deficiencies of white British-descended Protestants.
  #27  
Old 01-17-2018, 02:42 AM
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It's ridiculous to try to blame them on some inherent deficiency in the country's citizens. Especially on the ones who are dissatisfied enough to want to leave the country in the first place.
I've worked with a lot of Haitians seeking asylum, (under TPS), and I'd say at least 3/4 of them are extremely conservative Protestants, who are heavily involved in church activities. If their country is a "shithole," it's because of their corrupt leaders who are often abetted by the U.S. (and who buy apartments in Trump tower).
  #28  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:18 AM
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I think an interesting parallel with Trump's "shithole" comment would be calling the midwestern U.S. "flyover country". If someone else used that term, and I defended them, would that make me an elitist?
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:31 AM
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It's circular reasoning. What he said is racist because he is a racist because what he said is racist.
Adding snark to a strawman doesn't make it any more valid. No one said what you said.

Trump's statement is apparently racist on its face, saying he wishes people from the right countries (which just happen to be predominantly white) would come instead of the wrong "shithole" countries (which happen not to be). This would be true if anyone said it.

Further evidence is Trump's past racism, showing that such a statement is consistent for him. This is to argue against those who would try to force a non-racist interpretation on what he said, rather than taking the Occam's razor approach.

His statement is consistent with the statements said by other senile racist old men. It is not consistent with what non-racists say.
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:43 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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I think an interesting parallel with Trump's "shithole" comment would be calling the midwestern U.S. "flyover country".
Well, what would be parallel is if someone in a coastal city like New York complained about people from "flyover country" moving in, and whined that New York ought to be getting more people from places like LA and Seattle and Boston instead.

That would indeed be elitist, because the point would be not merely about a preference for coastal cities over Midwestern regions, but about the implication that people from Midwestern regions are intrinsically inferior and less desirable as residents.
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:45 AM
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I think an interesting parallel with Trump's "shithole" comment would be calling the midwestern U.S. "flyover country". If someone else used that term, and I defended them, would that make me an elitist?
I don't think that's quite fair, because it misses the full context. He didn't just defend what Trump said, but added his own comments. The question is whether the following would be elitist:
Trump says: "Why are we having all those people from flyover country come here? Why can't we get those nice people from, say, New York?"

FB guy says: "For those who are mad at Trump for saying some states are flyover country, I urge you to MOVE to one of those states and see for yourself. Until then, stop pretending you know what the world outside your PC echo-chamber is like, because you don't."
Sure sounds like defending coastal elitism to me.

Last edited by BigT; 01-17-2018 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:02 AM
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Yes, you do have to extend the situation to match up exactly with what's described in the OP. I still think it's a useful comparison in that it represents a real economic disparity, but would be considered insulting by the people who live there. And I suspect there's some overlap between the people defending "shithole" who'd take umbrage at "flyover country".
  #33  
Old 01-17-2018, 06:27 AM
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This idiot claims I am a bully and troll for criticizing him.
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Old 01-17-2018, 06:57 AM
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You could just stop talking to him, unfriend him, you know.
  #35  
Old 01-17-2018, 08:04 AM
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Well, what would be parallel is if someone in a coastal city like New York complained about people from "flyover country" moving in, and whined that New York ought to be getting more people from places like LA and Seattle and Boston instead.

That would indeed be elitist, because the point would be not merely about a preference for coastal cities over Midwestern regions, but about the implication that people from Midwestern regions are intrinsically inferior and less desirable as residents.
Funny thing is I have really heard the opposite complaint occasionally from those in the Carolinas and Virginia. Too many North Easters moving in and changing their states.

NYC does not exactly welcome all, but it is use to accepting all and adding to the constantly changing melting pot that is NYC. Though as each immigrant group becomes not the newest, they do usually complain about the newest groups.

Flyover is hardly a real term is it? Does anyone take it seriously? Shit-Hole country is a real thing. In itself not racist but in Trumps use with the Norway part, very much racist.


But the other side, calling Haiti a shit-hole is not racist. That country is messed up in ways that will take at least decades to fix but that doesn't mean the people are shit, just the poor sad country they are growing up in. Plenty of African countries would also seem to fit this description. The colonial past and being the oppressed second class citizens in these colonies is not easy to recover from.
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:48 AM
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Speaking derisively of "shithole countries" and implying they and their people are not deserving of our support makes one a shithole person, not necessarily a racist.
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Originally Posted by Kimstu
Well, what would be parallel is if someone in a coastal city like New York complained about people from "flyover country" moving in, and whined that New York ought to be getting more people from places like LA and Seattle and Boston instead.
Nah. New Yorkers (the intellectual set, anyway) delight in the concept of the Very Best of oink-oink country abandoning their shitholes and gravitating to NYC, while likely viewing competition from elites occupying other coastal enclaves as a threat.
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:59 AM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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I don't know if it's racist, but it is a weak talking point, earning a Hurrhdurrh score somewhere between "if there's global warming, why'd it snow yesterday?" and "how come there ain't no White History Month?"
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:26 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Quote:
Quoth octopus:

So, the characteristics of a country don't have much dependency on those who make up the country? How do these characteristics come into being?

Now the problem is when all problems of a country are blamed on each person from that country. Of course, that's a gross simplification. But so is the the implication that a country's nature is independent of its residents.
Let me make sure I understand you: Are you trying to claim that Trump and/or the guy defending him isn't actually racist, because the people from those countries really are shitty?
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:31 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is online now
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He also said if you get called racist/nazi/fascist for your views, you are doing something right in your life
Oh, he's a racist, all right.

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  #40  
Old 01-17-2018, 09:57 AM
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Calling El Salvador and Africa shitholes is not inherently racist, absent any context. Rude, ill-judged and not necessarily accurate, but not in itself racist.

Add in the reference to the people themselves (who are predominantly various shades of brown) and the comparison to people from Norway (who are predominantly very white), and suspicions of underlying racism start to become valid.

Have it said by a person with a history of blatant racism, of defending neo-Nazis and of disseminating white supremacist material, and assuming racist intent is a pretty solid judgment.

And the person the OP was arguing with is either in serious denial about Trump or actively apologizing for racism; either would explain the wild rationalizations offered up. Your pick.
  #41  
Old 01-17-2018, 10:02 AM
Clothahump Clothahump is offline
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No. It is not racist.
  #42  
Old 01-17-2018, 10:10 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is online now
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I just wanted to add that ultimately it doesn't matter whether it was said with racist intent or not. It was stupid, petty, ill-considered and deeply inappropriate for the POTUS to say, even in a closed meeting. We already know Trump is an asshole; arguing about what kind of asshole he's being at any particular moment isn't terribly constructive.
  #43  
Old 01-17-2018, 10:21 AM
BloodStalk BloodStalk is offline
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It annoys me how this idiot is playing the victim and sugarcoating what he said and trying to make it look like he did nothing wrong.
  #44  
Old 01-17-2018, 10:49 AM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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Originally Posted by BloodStalk View Post
It annoys me how this idiot is playing the victim and sugarcoating what he said and trying to make it look like he did nothing wrong.
Your frustration is understandable. Accusations of racism are supposed to be unanswerable. The problem is that they are not.

"Haiti is a shithole" is a truism. The effort of trying to argue for the genetic fallacy , which is what you are doing, is not going to be successful.

Regards,
Shodan
  #45  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:01 AM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Let me make sure I understand you: Are you trying to claim that Trump and/or the guy defending him isn't actually racist, because the people from those countries really are shitty?
I can't speak for octopus. But I believe the point Trump was making, though not expressed as diplomatically as he might have, was that those countries have a higher percentage of lower socio-economic level people, as compared to countries which are better off. This is associated with higher levels of crime and economic dependency. As a result, having a higher percentage of immigrants coming from those countries puts more strain on the US than that same number of immigrants from more developed countries.

I'm not completely sure this is true, though I assume it probably is. But that's what Trump was saying, and I don't think it's racist at all.
  #46  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:03 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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If all that Trump had said was that Haiti was a shithole, then yes, that would be defendable.

Now, want to try taking a stab at defending what Trump actually did say?
  #47  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:04 AM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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I did. What do you think I missed?
  #48  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:04 AM
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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If you want to argue with your Facebook friend, do it over on Facebook. Why are you bringing it up here?
  #49  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:08 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
Calling El Salvador and Africa shitholes is not inherently racist, absent any context.
Uh, I think describing the entire African continent as a shithole would definitely have racist implications. There is a huge variety of conditions in different African countries compared to other countries in the world that are not generally considered shitholes.

On the Human Development Index rankings, for instance, the African countries Seychelles and Mauritius outrank Costa Rica, Mexico and Brazil. Algeria has a lower rank but still beats Peru, Thailand and China. Botswana and Gabon outrank Vietnam, the Philippines and India.

Anybody who doesn't call, say, Mexico or China a "shithole" country has no business applying that term to Africa as a whole. Treating all of Africa as a socially and economically undifferentiated lump defined by the characteristics of its most pathological nations is at best irresponsibly ignorant and lazy, and at anything less than best, actually racist.
  #50  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:10 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
I'm not completely sure this is true, though I assume it probably is.
You assume incorrectly. For example, the most educated group in the US population is Nigerian immigrants, outranking both whites and Asian-Americans as well as other minority groups.
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