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Old 01-18-2018, 05:25 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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How is Home Schooling monitored and evaluated?

I've been reading the news about David and Louise Turpin's children. Found in horrific conditions last weekend.
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/18/us/tur...ion/index.html
They were home schooled.

How does that work?

I vaguely recall that there are home school courses parents can buy. That includes course materials, supplies, and lesson plans.

How does the school district confirm the children are being taught and how well they are progressing in their studies? Are the children tested?

It doesn't sound like the Turpin children's circumstances allowed for any home schooling.

Seems like the school district would be tracking home schooled kids progress.

Last edited by aceplace57; 01-18-2018 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:53 PM
Lasciel Lasciel is offline
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It is determined on a state by state level and varies from 'not allowed, so you claim you're running a private school instead and homeschool your kids anyway with no oversight' (ie, California) to 'here, pass these state benchmarks every few years' to 'homeschool? sure, whatever man, when did you have kids? cool dat.'

The homeschool lobby isn't quite as well known as the NRA, but they have been VERY effective over the last 30 years for their largely christian fundamentalist populations in a LOT of states. Quiverful in particular is very dependent on homeschooling and the associated lack of oversight from any 'outside' influence or authority.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:03 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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It's hard to understand how 13 kids fell through the cracks and no agency noticed the neglect.

I guess their progress homeschooling didn't get monitored. No one knew to check on the kids welfare.

The family photos certainly looked normal and wouldn't raise any alarms. But they are a couple years old and the situation at home probably got worse.

Last edited by aceplace57; 01-18-2018 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:19 PM
Lasciel Lasciel is offline
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I think you missed the point of my post. The ENTIRE POINT of the overarching homeschool lobby (the hslda and associated working groups) is to PREVENT any sort of state oversight of homeschooling families as an unconstitutional intrusion of the state into the sacred privacy rights of the family (ie the parents) and their (generally considered) God given rights to do whatever they like with their kids (up to and including abuse) because the kids belong to them.

It's not a failure on the part of state agencies to miss this, it's the targeted and desired result of years of calculated legal wrangling starting in the early 80s.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:27 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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I see. They feel the family's privacy is paramount.

I have no objection to homeschooling if the children are receiving a good education. Their SAT scores should, at least, be comparable to public school graduates.

I didn't realize there's no monitoring or testing by the school district.

Last edited by aceplace57; 01-18-2018 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:35 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
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No state requires visits by authorities to homeschools. In fact...

• In 11 states, parents don't have to inform school districts or anyone else that they're homeschooling.
• Most states have no minimum education requirements for parents.
• 33 states have requirements that homeschooled kids are to take certain subjects, but 22 of these have no means of checking to determine if they are.
• The vast majority of homeschooled kids are not required to take state assessments.

If all this sounds as if parents in some states can "homeschool and never teach them a bloomin' thing, that's only because that's correct. In fact, nobody even tracks whether or not parents actually stay home.

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Old 01-18-2018, 07:46 PM
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I have never home schooled, but I work in a school district. I’m almost 100% positive in my state that kids that are homeschooled are required to take state tests. As far as I know, they go to what would be their “home school” if they were actually attending that school during the test dates.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:50 PM
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I homeschooled my daughter for high school (Arkansas). There was a waiting period, and I had to file a curriculum. Other than that, no real oversight. (FWIW she’s in grad school now)
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:00 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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Both of my nieces have spent some of their school days learning at home, due to health and other issues. They used the school's curriculum and on a few occasions had tutors come in when it was something their parents couldn't help them with; one is currently doing an online high school program, and the other is a HS senior dual enrolled in high school and community college, and attends all her classes at the college. This has all been done with the school's oversight and is part of their IEP and 504 protocols.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:06 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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A-Beka is probably the best known homeschooling curriculum and is HEAVILY fundamentalist Christian in ints outlook. I still see ads for Calvert, also a well-known curriculum that I used to see in my mom's magazines when I was a kid, and there are many others, both religious and secular.

Most of the families I have known personally who HSed did it either because of a child's health problems (like, for instance, my nieces) or they lived in an area where the public schools were not good and the private schools had lengthy waiting lists, were prohibitively expensive, and/or not much better if at all. Some used religious curricula and others didn't even if they were Christian, because they were doing it for other reasons.

That said, the owner of an independent craft store in my old town said that she didn't know that wackadoodle HSers existed in that area until some of the kids started coming into her store, which had a public work area, for "socialization". These kids knew the Bible inside and out, and that was pretty much it; they had poor reading comprehension, didn't know basic math, didn't have an age-appropriate knowledge of current events, etc. She's a devout Christian herself but had never met people like this at church or anywhere else.

And while I don't know either family personally, I do know of two families who HSed their kids because they DID NOT want them exposed to Christianity, and knew they would be in a public school, by other kids inviting them to church and that kind of thing. One family was pagan and the other was hardcore atheist. I really don't think that's healthy either but I'm not in those families.
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:39 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Quote:
Quoth aceplace57:

Their SAT scores should, at least, be comparable to public school graduates.
That's pretty useless as a criterion. By the time you're taking the SAT, you're most of the way through high school. If the kid does poorly, then what? They've still been homeschooled for ten years already by that point, and their younger siblings (if any) will probably be close to that. Plus some kids are going to score lower than average just because of their natural aptitude, not because of how they were taught, and you aren't going to have high enough numbers at any given "school" to do meaningful statistics. Plus, of course, not everyone takes the SAT at all to begin with, because not everyone is aiming to attend college.

It'd be more useful to make them take the same state-run standardized tests as everyone else in their state, but even those don't usually start until several years in, long enough that an uneducated child is going to be hopelessly far behind by that point.
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:00 PM
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One big problem is the parents couldn't teach their kids to butter toast. That runs that gamut from "How do you write an essay? Don't worry, Jesus will provide." to "How do you solve 3x+1 = 16? Fuck if I know." But of course homeschooling does not require one to be a qualified teacher.
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:50 AM
Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is offline
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I toyed with the idea of homeschooling because we are so far away frm the schools my kids attended. I am so glad I didn't. I would've never gotten thru the math in highschool grades. All my kids did well in our Podunk school. In the end, all the time on the road paid off. (Unless you count the cars I wore out).
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:59 AM
adaher adaher is offline
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Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
One big problem is the parents couldn't teach their kids to butter toast. That runs that gamut from "How do you write an essay? Don't worry, Jesus will provide." to "How do you solve 3x+1 = 16? Fuck if I know." But of course homeschooling does not require one to be a qualified teacher.
That's a pretty rare situation. I'd say it's actually more accurate to state that some professional teachers can't teach kids to butter toast. While there are some exceptions, parents who care enough to home school will tend to do a good job.

Your statement about "qualified teacher" is pretty hilarious given how low teacher standards are in the US. It's literally one of the easiest degrees to get and few states test teachers to make sure they understand the subjects they are teaching.

Now I do think there should be required standards for home schooling. That standard should be set at "safer and better than the local public school".
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:44 AM
Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is offline
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I have met plenty of teachers who can't put a sensible sentence together, and I've met teachers who are the best kind of awesome. But the saddest are those who have just given up, the red tape, the parents, the administration and the kids have left them without a soul. It is a really hard job if you really put yourself out there, and they don't earn enough. Sad.

Last edited by Beckdawrek; 01-19-2018 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 01-19-2018, 09:42 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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States might not require teachers to test to show proficiency in the subjects they're teaching. But you do need to pass tests to be considered a "highly qualified teacher", and if you're not an HQT, you're going to have a heck of a time finding a district (or even a charter) that'll hire you.

My mom was considering homeschooling me in high school, for a while, due to some complicated circumstances at the school I'd been attending. But she knew that she wouldn't be able to keep up on the math, and figured that she'd have to find some way to get me into some sort of dual-enrollment at one of the local colleges. Fortunately, I got into a very good high school at the last minute, so it didn't end up being necessary.
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Old 01-19-2018, 09:44 AM
HeyHomie HeyHomie is offline
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There are as many reasons for homeschooling as there are homeschooling families. There's religious fundamentalism (Christian or otherwise). There are health/developmental issues with the kids. There's distrust of government. There's a genuine belief that the parents can provide their children with a better education than what the schools can provide. They don't want their kids exposed to whatever is going on in the public schools their kids would otherwise attend (gangs, drugs, what have you). And so on.

I don't have kids, but you can bet your sweet bippy they would not see the inside of the public school in this town. I listed out the reasons why, but then deleted them because that would quickly steer this thread into GD territory.

Long story short: don't just assume that someone homeschools their kids because they're religious whackjobs.
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Old 01-19-2018, 09:51 AM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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I know some folks pretty well who mostly homeschooled, and they did so for religious purposes. But, they are pretty well off, and they did it quite well. It was, literally, a full time job for the mother and they hired special tutors for foreign language, math and some other subjects. They spent money to convert part of their home into a room specially dedicated only to the schooling, so it wasn't, for example, done in the kitchen with the TV on.

It's not an easy thing to do, and most parents are ill equipped to do it right, especially with several children across age ranges. It can be done, of course, but not easily.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:15 AM
Tired and Cranky Tired and Cranky is offline
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Originally Posted by HeyHomie View Post
There are as many reasons for homeschooling as there are homeschooling families. There's religious fundamentalism (Christian or otherwise). There are health/developmental issues with the kids. There's distrust of government. There's a genuine belief that the parents can provide their children with a better education than what the schools can provide. They don't want their kids exposed to whatever is going on in the public schools their kids would otherwise attend (gangs, drugs, what have you). And so on.

[Snip]

Long story short: don't just assume that someone homeschools their kids because they're religious whackjobs.
My former neighbors led a peripatetic lifestyle. They home schooled their bright, charming daughter mostly to make lots of free time for extensive travel abroad. She had social opportunities through sports, friends, and band music lessons. They struggled to find a home school curriculum to guide her lessons though because the curricula were all either simplistic or just religious tracts in disguise.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:08 PM
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During the 1990s, I was part of a non-profit which (among other things) provided support to homeschoolers. At that time anyway, there was very little government oversight. What little oversight existed was easily worked around. Suppose you live in a state where the law requires every child to attend an actual school. No problem, you just file the paperwork to declare your house as a "school". Then suppose there's a law requiring every school to have at least one teacher with a certification. No problem, you just find a diploma mill to give yourself a certification. And if the state were foolish enough to pass a law shutting down schools which don't meet benchmarks, they'd end up closing some of their own public schools in the process.

Look at it this way. If you believe the purpose of school is to ensure that our citizens are well-educated, then our public schools are mediocre at reaching that goal and homeschooling doesn't do any worse. But if you believe that the purpose of school is to keep kids busy, off the streets, and out of the job market, then public school does a great job and homeschooling doesn't do any worse. And if you believe that the purpose of school is to train factory workers on how to be obedient... then homeschooling fails but that's okay because it's a small percentage of your available work force. And if you believe that the purpose of school is to separate truth from falsehood, producing graduates who can spot con artists and tell the difference between science and hoaxes... then homeschooling fails miserably but public school doesn't do much better. Consequently, there's very little motivation to force homeschooling to improve. And, as others pointed out, there's fierce push back, much of which is religiously motivated. So politicians generally just leave it alone.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:50 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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I realize the Turpin abuse is very unusual. It is disconcerting that a family with thirteen kids can be completely unnoticed by anybody. The abuse could have continued another decade if that one girl hadn't escaped.

Privacy and a total lack of government oversight is a big part of the American ethos. It worked against these kids in this situation.

Last edited by aceplace57; 01-19-2018 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:56 PM
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And if the state were foolish enough to pass a law shutting down schools which don't meet benchmarks, they'd end up closing some of their own public schools in the process.
Plus, those laws often have exceptions for schools with small enough numbers that the statistics aren't reliable. For instance, you might have a benchmark for how well low-income students are performing, but a school in a wealthy suburb might have only a handful of low-income students, not enough for the stats on how they're performing to really mean anything, so that school is exempt from having to meet that benchmark. And a school with a total enrollment of four students is going to be below that threshold for every benchmark.

I suppose that what you could do would be to pass a law for a minimum student body for a valid school, large enough that you could get a reliable benchmark. And then maybe offer waivers, if the school in question can prove (their burden, not the state's) that they're offering a higher quality of education than the public schools of the same level in their locality. But I'm sure that'd be very strongly resisted by the homeschooling lobby, and would probably fail.
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:20 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Well on the test taking thing, one homeschool parent told me (dont know if this is true but knowing the public schools I dont doubt it) but he said the reason they stopped requiring homeschooled kids to take state tests was they actually did better than the kids from public schools and they were embarrassed.

In our area homeschool families have many options including where they get together weekly so the kids can work on subjects the parents cannot do (like art or science) take field trips together, they even have their own sports teams that play against some of the smaller private schools. They also share curriculum and ideas.
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:21 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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I would also like to add to the above reasons for homeschooling - some parents have jobs which put them on the road or require alot of moving around so thats why they homeschool.
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:34 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Well on the test taking thing, one homeschool parent told me (dont know if this is true but knowing the public schools I dont doubt it) but he said the reason they stopped requiring homeschooled kids to take state tests was they actually did better than the kids from public schools and they were embarrassed.
It's easier to believe people that tell you what you already believe, but it's not always right.

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In our area homeschool families have many options including where they get together weekly so the kids can work on subjects the parents cannot do (like art or science) take field trips together, they even have their own sports teams that play against some of the smaller private schools. They also share curriculum and ideas.
Everyone has options like that-what percent takes advantage of those options, and what percent shares ideas with other homeschooling groups with ideas they don't already have(because sharing ideas with others that already believe as you do isn't really sharing at all)? Because of the lack of monitoring and evaluation(for the most part), all we have to rely on is the partial statements of people like the homeschool parent you referred to.
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:42 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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I would also like to add to the above reasons for homeschooling - some parents have jobs which put them on the road or require alot of moving around so thats why they homeschool.
How does that work out if different states have different homeschool requirements, and doesn't such a situation make it next to impossible for any effective oversight/evaluation at all?
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:43 PM
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How does that work out if different states have different homeschool requirements, and doesn't such a situation make it next to impossible for any effective oversight/evaluation at all?
You would be under your home state.

I can think of one truck driving family who did this.

Another was when I worked the pro bowling tour and many families were on the road with that.
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:49 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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How does the home state possibly monitor and/or evaluate the homeschooling of a travelling family...or is that what the loophole is-it would be next to impossible both technically and financially for the state to do so, so basically the travelers don't really have to worry about it?
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Old 01-19-2018, 04:07 PM
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It's easier to believe people that tell you what you already believe, but it's not always right.
Not always, certainly, but in this case, it is. Homeschooled students who follow an organized curriculum do as well or better than public-schooled students on standardized tests (cite, cite).

So, in general, monitoring home schooled students is a solution in search of a problem. This horrid California case notwithstanding, home schoolers are as well or better prepared academically, as well or better socialized, etc., so it is very difficult to make a case for more controls on home-schooling based solely on academics.

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Old 01-19-2018, 04:35 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Not always, certainly, but in this case, it is. Homeschooled students who follow an organized curriculum do as well or better than public-schooled students on standardized tests (cite, cite).

So, in general, monitoring home schooled students is a solution in search of a problem. This horrid California case notwithstanding, home schoolers are as well or better prepared academically, as well or better socialized, etc., so it is very difficult to make a case for more controls on home-schooling based solely on academics.

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The first report's abstract states
Quote:
the data showed that structured homeschooled children achieved higher standardized scores compared with children attending public school. Exploratory analyses also suggest that the unstructured homeschoolers are achieving the lowest standardized scores across the 3 groups.
That seems to indicate that the unstructured homeschoolers need monitoring, doesn't it?
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Old 01-19-2018, 05:00 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Homeschool laws by state, with map showing which states require what level of regulation. Please note that states with low and no regulation seem to predominate.
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Old 01-19-2018, 05:25 PM
Lasciel Lasciel is offline
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How does the home state possibly monitor and/or evaluate the homeschooling of a travelling family...or is that what the loophole is-it would be next to impossible both technically and financially for the state to do so, so basically the travelers don't really have to worry about it?
I know this is GQ, but my childhood is my cite - that is exactly the point for at least a significant sub section of homeschoolers. The goal there is for the children to be 'off the radar' as much as possible (for various reasons, most often religious or philosophical). This is accomplished by living rurally or traveling, or moving a lot, by homeschooling, having home births, and avoiding medical attention for injuries or sickness.

Last edited by Lasciel; 01-19-2018 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 01-19-2018, 05:26 PM
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One big problem is the parents couldn't teach their kids to butter toast. That runs that gamut from "How do you write an essay? Don't worry, Jesus will provide." to "How do you solve 3x+1 = 16? Fuck if I know." But of course homeschooling does not require one to be a qualified teacher.
I don't know where you get this, but there is a wide gamut. Sure, some homeschooling parents don't have much education (although I have never encountered the "Jesus will provide" or "Fuck if I know" stance that you wrote there,) but many did/do have a very advanced education.

(I grew up homeschooled and my father had a doctoral degree, although that's an exception to the homeschooling norm - or public-schooling norm, for that matter.)
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:09 PM
Hari Seldon Hari Seldon is offline
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During the 1990s, I was part of a non-profit which (among other things) provided support to homeschoolers. At that time anyway, there was very little government oversight. What little oversight existed was easily worked around. Suppose you live in a state where the law requires every child to attend an actual school. No problem, you just file the paperwork to declare your house as a "school". Then suppose there's a law requiring every school to have at least one teacher with a certification. No problem, you just find a diploma mill to give yourself a certification. And if the state were foolish enough to pass a law shutting down schools which don't meet benchmarks, they'd end up closing some of their own public schools in the process.

Look at it this way. If you believe the purpose of school is to ensure that our citizens are well-educated, then our public schools are mediocre at reaching that goal and homeschooling doesn't do any worse. But if you believe that the purpose of school is to keep kids busy, off the streets, and out of the job market, then public school does a great job and homeschooling doesn't do any worse. And if you believe that the purpose of school is to train factory workers on how to be obedient... then homeschooling fails but that's okay because it's a small percentage of your available work force. And if you believe that the purpose of school is to separate truth from falsehood, producing graduates who can spot con artists and tell the difference between science and hoaxes... then homeschooling fails miserably but public school doesn't do much better. Consequently, there's very little motivation to force homeschooling to improve. And, as others pointed out, there's fierce push back, much of which is religiously motivated. So politicians generally just leave it alone.
You of course have evidence for all these assertions about public schools doing a lousy job, don't you? For myself I went through excellent public schools and so did my three children. So did my wife until her mother took her to rural NJ. Still she got into and did well in top college. I guess we were all lucky.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:19 AM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is online now
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Homeschool laws by state, with map showing which states require what level of regulation. Please note that states with low and no regulation seem to predominate.
I'm shocked to see PA is one of the ones with high regulations. My neighbor pulled her two eldest out of school because she was sick of them always getting in trouble and having to deal with it. She claimed she was "home schooling" them, but after awhile they just ran around and caused trouble. We're talking middle school drop-outs. I don't know how the fuck this happened, or if she knew someone or what.

(Mind you, I'm not saying that was the norm, I'm just stating what I know. This family had um, issues)
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:26 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Here is a summary of a more comprehensive and more recent study from 2016 that seems to point out that the "home school advantage" seems to disappear when important factors are taken into account.
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Old 01-20-2018, 11:38 AM
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Interesting reference there, Czarcasm:. It seems to say (although I may be spinning it like a homeschooling supporter would) that equating socioeconomic status, homeschooling is just like sbunny8: said -- not demonstrably worse in the short term. That's probably where this meme came from.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:23 PM
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I believe in the UK the local authority *can* inspect, but generally, unless attention is drawn to the family, many don't. If they were enrolled in a school and were taken out, enquiries will be made, but if they're never enrolled in the first place they can keep below the radar for years with little effort.

I am aware of an ex's little half sisters, who were being home 'educated' (when they were aged 8 and 10, when I split up with their big brother, neither of them knew the whole alphabet or how to do basic addition) whose obnoxious hippy mother took them out of the country to live in, IIRC, rural Bulgaria, because the local authority had started raising objections about their utter lack of any education. She claimed she didn't want them to 'get brainwashed by the patriarchy', but mainly she just refused to deal with any sort of structure that would impose on her life, and making sure they were up and ready for school would require thinking more than 10 minutes ahead, and of someone other than herself.
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Old 01-20-2018, 01:25 PM
Saint Cad Saint Cad is offline
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Originally Posted by adaher View Post
That's a pretty rare situation. I'd say it's actually more accurate to state that some professional teachers can't teach kids to butter toast. While there are some exceptions, parents who care enough to home school will tend to do a good job.

Your statement about "qualified teacher" is pretty hilarious given how low teacher standards are in the US. It's literally one of the easiest degrees to get and few states test teachers to make sure they understand the subjects they are teaching.
You're post is factually incorrect. All public-school teachers teachers must be highly qualified in their teaching fields under ESEA and has been in effect since 2001. I am also not aware of any state that does not require a teacher to either have a degree in their field OR pass a subject matter test. Since you made the claim, please tell us what states do not require a degree or test to teach.

You also claim education degrees are the easiest to get. What data do you have to support this?
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  #40  
Old 01-20-2018, 06:40 PM
Patx2 Patx2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
You're post is factually incorrect. All public-school teachers teachers must be highly qualified in their teaching fields under ESEA and has been in effect since 2001. I am also not aware of any state that does not require a teacher to either have a degree in their field OR pass a subject matter test. Since you made the claim, please tell us what states do not require a degree or test to teach.

You also claim education degrees are the easiest to get. What data do you have to support this?
I’m a substitute teacher. In my state substitutes have to be licensed, I don’t think that’s the case in every state. I teach at the elementary level and have my Masters in education, I’m certified K -6. I know high school teachers here have to pass tests in their specialty area.
  #41  
Old 01-20-2018, 07:12 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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In Ohio, substitutes need to be licensed, but the license is very easy to get: The only requirements are a bachelor's degree (in anything) and a clean background check. There are also subject-specific licenses for long-term subs (I'm long-term licensed in physics and math), which do require proof of content knowledge, but they're not necessarily required (my longest job was for a class I wasn't technically long-term licensed for, but I was able to prove to the principal's satisfaction that I had expertise in the (relatively uncommon) subject material).
  #42  
Old 01-21-2018, 11:06 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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Homeschooling is a refuge for antivaxers, since their kids don't have to get the vaccinations required for public school attendance. One prominent antivaxer this past week suggested that the Turpin case was fabricated by pro-vaccine forces ("advocacy groups", the media, you name it) in order to facilitate a crackdown on homeschooling and force the kiddies to get their shots.
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Homeschool laws by state, with map showing which states require what level of regulation. Please note that states with low and no regulation seem to predominate.
A new frontier for homeschooling seems to be "electronic classrooms", where the kids don't have to rub up against Undesirables, and attendance/accountability varies between optional and limited.

Case in point: Ohio's Electronic Classroom of Tomorrow (ECOT), which shut down this past week after a scandal erupted over its collection of huge amounts of money from the state of Ohio for undocumented education online (one year, supposedly about 70% of students qualified as truant on review). The founder of ECOT enjoyed a lavish lifestyle, while lavishing close to a million dollars on donations to ECOT-friendly politicians over a recent five-year period.

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index....y_returns.html

Homeschoolers have their own political action committees/funds and a bevy of sympathetic legislators. They claim their political spending is only a tiny fraction of what teachers' unions donate, which is likely true - but it's difficult to ascertain just what that spending amounts to, and how much it has damped down efforts to hold homeschooling parents accountable for their kids' education.
  #43  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:21 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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I homeschooled my son in Minnesota for a year in 9th grade.

We had to inform the district he was being homeschooled. I had to have a bachelors degree. He had to take a standardized test (He took the ACT). Because I was interested in getting him back in school (he fell in with a bad crowd in middle school), I made sure to follow the district curriculum as much as possible. I had to keep all my records, the state reserved the right to audit me (I don't think they ever do).
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  #44  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:45 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by Dangerosa View Post
I homeschooled my son in Minnesota for a year in 9th grade.

We had to inform the district he was being homeschooled. I had to have a bachelors degree. He had to take a standardized test (He took the ACT). Because I was interested in getting him back in school (he fell in with a bad crowd in middle school), I made sure to follow the district curriculum as much as possible. I had to keep all my records, the state reserved the right to audit me (I don't think they ever do).
How long ago was this? According to the link I previously provided Minnesota is listed as a "Low Moderation state", and
Quote:
In order to teach children in Minnesota, a person must be “qualified.” Parents teaching their own children are automatically qualified.
(bolding mine) Also, while
Quote:
The required subjects are reading, writing, literature, fine arts, math, science, history, geography, economics, government, citizenship, health, and physical education.
There is no specific requirement in Minnesota law for how often each of the subjects must be taught or at what grade levels.
  #45  
Old 01-21-2018, 06:31 PM
sbunny8 sbunny8 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
You of course have evidence for all these assertions about public schools doing a lousy job, don't you?
I never said public schools do a lousy job. I said their success or failure differs wildly depending on your opinion about what their purpose is. If you go looking for criteria to judge public school as lousy, you can find that. If you go looking for criteria to judge them excellent, you can find that too.

The one area where I said public schools "fails miserably" is IF you believe that their purpose is to "separate truth from falsehood, producing graduates who can spot con artists and tell the difference between science and hoaxes".

Surely you would agree with me that people are really bad at that, judging by how many millions will fall for bullshit day after day. Pick any random 1,000 American adults and ask them which of the following statements are true:
1. The moon landing was a hoax.
2. The bible has no mistakes in it, not even typos.
3. We found WMD in Iraq.
4. You can catch cold by going outside in the winter time with wet hair and/or no jacket.
5. Vaccines cause Autism.
6. You can balance an egg only at the Equinox.

All six of these are false. But the average American thinks at least one or two of them are true. And I'm barely scratching the surface here. Pick any page off of www.snopes.com and see how many people know if it's true or if it's false.

I am not saying that Americans are worse at spotting bullshit than people in the rest of the world. I'm not saying it's public school's fault that we are bad at it. I'm saying that IF public school's purpose was to produce people who can spot bullshit, and if public school did a really good job at that purpose, then people who went to public school ought to be really good at spotting bullshit, and we aren't.

But there are plenty of other criteria you can use to judge public schools where they do an excellent job. Which criteria you want to use is largely a matter of opinion.

Last edited by sbunny8; 01-21-2018 at 06:31 PM.
  #46  
Old 01-21-2018, 07:05 PM
Kimera757 Kimera757 is online now
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Originally Posted by sbunny8 View Post
And if the state were foolish enough to pass a law shutting down schools which don't meet benchmarks, they'd end up closing some of their own public schools in the process.
I'm not sure if that's such a bad thing. There are many really horrible public schools out there, and they should be accountable, and if such a school fails, the children may have to be transported to better public schools.

Any type of school should be accountable.

I don't think a school is just a place to get an education, either. It's a place to develop social skills and meet people who aren't like yourself. As a result, I'm generally opposed to religious schools, ethnic schools, boys only or girls only schools, and home schools.
  #47  
Old 01-21-2018, 07:20 PM
BigT BigT is offline
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I don't see any reason there shouldn't be testing. I know you have to take your GED to actually count as graduating high school (as my homeschooled friends in college told me), but I see no reason they couldn't have other such tests, and just have to schedule some time in a local college or something to take it while being monitored for cheating.

That said, I'd say that every single homeschooled student I met had socialization problems and always came off as weird. But, then again, that could be my own bias for the type of people I liked hanging out with.
  #48  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:14 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Imagine, never setting foot in a public school until the day you walk into Harvard!

HERE is an article about a homeschooler going to Harvard.

Granted, few homeschoolers (less than 1%) go to the Ivy league schools but it does happen.
  #49  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:23 PM
Chingon Chingon is online now
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Ummm....
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  #50  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:31 PM
sbunny8 sbunny8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
I'd say that every single homeschooled student I met had socialization problems and always came off as weird. But, then again, that could be my own bias for the type of people I liked hanging out with.
Quite possibly, they started out with socialization problems as toddlers and they would stay that way regardless of what school you sent them too.
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