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  #1  
Old 01-19-2018, 10:38 AM
BigAppleBucky BigAppleBucky is offline
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It seems that private prisons are violating the 13th Amendment

- or at least coming close.

Class-action lawsuit alleges immigrants are forced to labor in detention

Quote:
The class-action lawsuit, filed Wednesday in San Diego federal court, alleges that immigrants at Otay Mesa Detention Center are paid at most $1.50 per day, and sometimes not paid at all, for their work as kitchen staff, janitors, barbers and various other roles. It further alleges that the facility doesn’t provide all of the basic necessities that detainees need for daily life, such as soap, which means they have to work in order to buy those items at the commissary.

The lawsuit also contends that facility staff have threatened to put detainees in solitary confinement or take away visitation rights if they said they didn’t want to work.
PRIVATE PRISON CONTINUES TO SEND ICE DETAINEES TO SOLITARY CONFINEMENT FOR REFUSING VOLUNTARY LABOR

Quote:
Ahmed’s account adds to a growing chorus of ICE detainees who allege that they have been forced to work in for-profit ICE facilities or else risk punishment with solitary confinement — a harsh form of captivity that, if prolonged, can amount to torture. Late last month, ICE detainees at a CoreCivic-run facility in California sued the private prison contractor, alleging that they had been threatened with solitary confinement if they did not work. In October, The Intercept reported that officials had placed another detainee in solitary confinement for 30 days for “encouraging others to participate in a work stoppage” at the same privately run facility where Ahmed was disciplined, the Stewart Detention Center in Lumpkin, Georgia.
  #2  
Old 01-19-2018, 11:07 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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I, for one, am shocked that private prisons that aren't accountable to anyone do things like this!
  #3  
Old 01-19-2018, 11:13 AM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The 13th Amendment
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?

Regards,
Shodan
  #4  
Old 01-19-2018, 11:34 AM
Folacin Folacin is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?

Regards,
Shodan
Have ICE detainee's been convicted of anything? My first impulse is "no". Hopefully, once it has been adjudicated that they are illegally here, they are deported.
  #5  
Old 01-19-2018, 11:39 AM
Sailboat Sailboat is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?
Seems a little coy.

If you're referring to the "duly convicted" phrase, I don't know, are these "detainees" convicted of anything? I scanned the article briefly and only saw references to people crossing the border and being "picked up" and detained.

The terminology isn't clear to me. Wouldn't they be "convicts" and in a "prison" if duly convicted? I have been under the impression that "detainees" in a "detention center" were not (yet) convicted of anything. Is that right or wrong?

Or are you referring to something else entirely?
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  #6  
Old 01-19-2018, 11:45 AM
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?

Regards,
Shodan
Dude, what crime have these detainees been duly convicted of?

It is not a crime to overstay your visa. Yes, you can be kicked out of the country and not allowed to come back, but it's still not a crime.

And these people haven't even been adjudicated to not have the right to stay in the country, that's why they are being detained, so that their status can be legally determined.
  #7  
Old 01-19-2018, 11:47 AM
running coach running coach is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?

Regards,
Shodan
Generally, illegal presence s not a crime, it's a civil violation.
Quote:
According to legal experts, the answer is that most of the time, unlawful presence is not a crime.

When we checked with the Florida Conference of Catholic Bishops, Michele M. Taylor, the group’s associate director for communications, pointed to the 2012 Supreme Court case Arizona vs. United States. The majority opinion found that "as a general rule, it is not a crime for a removable alien to remain present in the United States."

Experts agreed. Unlawful presence is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor, said Ilya Shapiro, a senior fellow in constitutional studies at the libertarian Cato Institute. It is a civil infraction that results in removal and a bar on re-entry for a certain period of time.

"Not everything that’s illegal — meaning against the law or violating the law — is a crime," Shapiro said. "There are civil violations, like when you get a parking ticket. ‘Unlawful presence’ is one of these. You don't go to jail or receive any other criminal punishment for being in the country illegally — you get deported."
There's also that pesky Constitution which applies to anyone on US soil(except for citizen privileges like voting).
  #8  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:08 PM
BigAppleBucky BigAppleBucky is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?

Regards,
Shodan
Nope. As others have pointed out. No convictions. In fact, there is at least a chance some non-zero number of the detainees might be released after they prove they belong in the USA. Otherwise, they'd be out of the country already.
  #9  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:10 PM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is offline
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Ignore Shodan. He's trolling again.
  #10  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:13 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?

Regards,
Shodan
Is it the use of the word "their" instead of "its"?
  #11  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:16 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?

Regards,
Shodan
"Weasel words" seems much too mild for crap like this.
Perhaps "hyena words"?
  #12  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:20 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is online now
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How about "Bricker words"?
  #13  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:32 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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To be fair, the thread title refers to "prisons", not to ICE detainment facilities. That might be cause for some confusion.
  #14  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:45 PM
gnoitall gnoitall is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
To be fair, the thread title refers to "prisons", not to ICE detainment facilities. That might be cause for some confusion.
"TL;DR" isn't a good defense.
  #15  
Old 01-19-2018, 03:56 PM
Typo Negative Typo Negative is offline
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Well, being sent to Solitary for refusing kinda negates the 'voluntary' aspect.
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  #16  
Old 01-19-2018, 04:06 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Come now people, I think we can agree that as long as a business is a for-profit business in a competitive market operating on free market principles, it's literally impossible for them to do any thing wrong, because if they did the invisible hand would rise up and slap them. Yes, the detainees would choose to stay in a different detainment center, so since they don't we can be absolutely confident that any slavery you see them doing is perfectly okay because of, again, Free Market.
  #17  
Old 01-19-2018, 04:11 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?

Regards,
Shodan
Many people already rightfully called you out on the fact that these are detainees, not convicts, and therefore, no, there is nothing in there that would affect the argument, but I have another reason why your statement is useless.

What does it say in the amendment? Does it say, "If convicted of a crime, then they may be enslaved or used for involuntary servitude"? No, it says "as punishment for the crime".

So, if the sentence of the crime calls for "hard labor", then that gets around the 13th. If the sentence is for 10 years in jail, then the jail doesn't get to decide to use them as involuntary servitude or slavery.
  #18  
Old 01-19-2018, 04:18 PM
running coach running coach is online now
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Come now people, I think we can agree that as long as a business is a for-profit business in a competitive market operating on free market principles, it's literally impossible for them to do any thing wrong, because if they did the invisible hand would rise up and slap them. Yes, the detainees would choose to stay in a different detainment center, so since they don't we can be absolutely confident that any slavery you see them doing is perfectly okay because of, again, Free Market.
There's no reviews on Yelp! or tripadvisor. How would they know which Detainment Center to choose?
  #19  
Old 01-19-2018, 04:20 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Originally Posted by running coach View Post
There's no reviews on Yelp! or tripadvisor. How would they know which Detainment Center to choose?
Well, the free market dictates by definition that customers can make informed decisions about their buying choices, so we can safely presume that they'll get the information somehow.
  #20  
Old 01-19-2018, 04:26 PM
gnoitall gnoitall is offline
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Well, the free market dictates by definition that customers can make informed decisions about their buying choices, so we can safely presume that they'll get the information somehow.
The Invisible Hand cheerfully provides the information.

Unfortunately, it's all in sign language, because it's just a Hand. And not many people read sign language.

Worse, the Hand is Invisible, so no one can see the Hand, let alone talk to it. But you can't blame the Hand for trying.
  #21  
Old 01-19-2018, 04:30 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Originally Posted by gnoitall View Post
The Invisible Hand cheerfully provides the information.

Unfortunately, it's all in sign language, because it's just a Hand. And not many people read sign language.

Worse, the Hand is Invisible, so no one can see the Hand, let alone talk to it. But you can't blame the Hand for trying.
So, although I might feel strongly that The Invisible Hand is flipping us all off, I can't prove it?
  #22  
Old 01-19-2018, 05:03 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Can you spot anything in there that might affect your argument?

Regards,
Shodan
Can you? I’m sure a fine fellow such as you have always shown yourself to be would never consider withholding the benefits obtained by your eagle-eyed attention to detail and commitment to rational, fact-based discourse.
  #23  
Old 01-19-2018, 06:15 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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This is an interesting case. I don't think you can claim that "not paying someone MW" = "slavery". They may, and I emphasize may, be in violation of MW laws, but I doubt they will be found in violation of the 13th amendment.
  #24  
Old 01-19-2018, 06:27 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is online now
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
This is an interesting case. I don't think you can claim that "not paying someone MW" = "slavery". They may, and I emphasize may, be in violation of MW laws, but I doubt they will be found in violation of the 13th amendment.
So you're saying that they are free to not accept the terms of their employment?
  #25  
Old 01-19-2018, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by gnoitall View Post
The Invisible Hand cheerfully provides the information.

Unfortunately, it's all in sign language, because it's just a Hand. And not many people read sign language.

Worse, the Hand is Invisible, so no one can see the Hand, let alone talk to it. But you can't blame the Hand for trying.
thank you
  #26  
Old 01-19-2018, 06:32 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
So you're saying that they are free to not accept the terms of their employment?
I'm saying I doubt that what we think of as normal labor laws apply in this instance. I could be wrong, but has anyone successfully prosecuted a 13th amendment violation for something similar? If so, I'll stand corrected.

I think we should also look at the contact these places have with ICE to see if anything like this is covered. I don't know if it is, but it wouldn't at all surprise me if it was.

Last edited by John Mace; 01-19-2018 at 06:34 PM.
  #27  
Old 01-19-2018, 06:50 PM
Typo Negative Typo Negative is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
This is an interesting case. I don't think you can claim that "not paying someone MW" = "slavery".
You CAN say that "not paying someone MW" = "involuntary servitude". This seems to be the very definition of it. They are ordered to work, and punished if they refuse.
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  #28  
Old 01-19-2018, 07:03 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
This is an interesting case. I don't think you can claim that "not paying someone MW" = "slavery". They may, and I emphasize may, be in violation of MW laws, but I doubt they will be found in violation of the 13th amendment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article in the OP
The lawsuit also contends that facility staff have threatened to put detainees in solitary confinement or take away visitation rights if they said they didn’t want to work.
Sure, but "not paying someone minimum wage" combined with "throwing them into solitary confinement and taking away visitation rights" gets a lot closer, no?

Assuming that the latter claim is true.
  #29  
Old 01-19-2018, 07:41 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
Sure, but "not paying someone minimum wage" combined with "throwing them into solitary confinement and taking away visitation rights" gets a lot closer, no?

Assuming that the latter claim is true.
It's unclear if anyone has actually been put in solitary confinement. Your quote says there was a threat of solitary confinement. But again, I think it will depend on the terms of the contact these detention centers have with ICE. It might be that ICE is in the wrong, if they included that option in the contract.
  #30  
Old 01-19-2018, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
To be fair, the thread title refers to "prisons", not to ICE detainment facilities. That might be cause for some confusion.
There's a lot of room for confusion on that issue. Some ICE detainment facilities are located inside regular prisons and are operated by prison employees.
  #31  
Old 01-19-2018, 08:45 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
This is an interesting case. I don't think you can claim that "not paying someone MW" = "slavery". They may, and I emphasize may, be in violation of MW laws, but I doubt they will be found in violation of the 13th amendment.
They were quite open about this when I worked in prisons. Yes, what prisoners were doing was involuntary servitude. But it was legal because they had been sentenced as punishment for crimes. A prisoner cannot refuse to work when he's ordered to do so.

As others have noted, this may not apply to people being held in a prison as detainees.
  #32  
Old 01-20-2018, 05:59 AM
SaneBill SaneBill is online now
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
So, although I might feel strongly that The Invisible Hand is flipping us all off, I can't prove it?
Maybe you should try Learned Hand.
  #33  
Old 01-20-2018, 06:08 AM
Kobal2 Kobal2 is offline
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Originally Posted by gnoitall View Post
The Invisible Hand cheerfully provides the information.

Unfortunately, it's all in sign language, because it's just a Hand. And not many people read sign language.

Worse, the Hand is Invisible, so no one can see the Hand, let alone talk to it. But you can't blame the Hand for trying.
*sigh* once more, with feeling : the whole Invisible Hand theory hinged on the pre-requisite, yet naively hopeful notion that all actors will be rational and, above all, MORAL. Which might even have not been all that naive in Adam Smith's time, when reputation was paramount. In these days of who gives a fuck, the Hand needs a leash and 20 lashes a day till it learns to behave.
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  #34  
Old 01-20-2018, 06:21 AM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
It's unclear if anyone has actually been put in solitary confinement. Your quote says there was a threat of solitary confinement. But again, I think it will depend on the terms of the contact these detention centers have with ICE. It might be that ICE is in the wrong, if they included that option in the contract.
Whether it's the detention center or ICE that's in the wrong is all about the contract.

But if there's no "crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted" that they're in detention on account of, and they're being forced to work anyway, then somebody's violating the 13th Amendment here.

Also, I can't see if it matters whether "the party" has actually been punished for refusing to work, or has merely been informed that a refusal to work will have negative repercussions visited upon him. Involuntary servitude under the threat of punishment, and refusal to serve resulting in punishment, are two sides of the same coin. Maybe it's an empty threat, but how does the prisoner know that?
  #35  
Old 01-20-2018, 08:08 AM
asahi asahi is offline
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Dude, what crime have these detainees been duly convicted of?
In Shodan's world, accused and detained = convicted. Just as long as it's not he who stands accused and detained.
  #36  
Old 01-22-2018, 10:49 AM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
It's unclear if anyone has actually been put in solitary confinement. Your quote says there was a threat of solitary confinement.
Does that matter?

Let's say I offer to employ somebody for no money, and tell them I'll lock them up if they don't agree. But they believe me, so I don't ever lock them up. Not slavery?

Quote:
But again, I think it will depend on the terms of the contact these detention centers have with ICE. It might be that ICE is in the wrong, if they included that option in the contract.
Does that matter?

Let's say the same above situation, but now I have a piece of paper written by a third party that says I'm allowed to force the person to work without pay? Not slavery?
  #37  
Old 01-22-2018, 10:58 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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I don't think that the pay, or lack thereof, enters into the question of involuntary servitude at all. I mean, I've worked for people without pay plenty of times, and there are many organizations that couldn't exist without people working without pay, and nobody has any problem with that. The problem isn't that the servitude is unpaid; it's that it's involuntary. It's right there in the term "involuntary servitude". And the work described here is pretty clearly involuntary.
  #38  
Old 01-22-2018, 11:30 AM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Let the free market prevail; the prisoners can vote with their shivs.
  #39  
Old 01-22-2018, 01:40 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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To be fair, there are quite a lot of lawsuits filed alleging improper or abusive treatment by prisons, jails and other detention facilities. Most have no merit; prisoners are generally not the most credible witnesses. This one may, but I prefer to reserve my outrage until there's at least some evidence in.
  #40  
Old 01-28-2018, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
But if there's no "crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted" that they're in detention on account of, and they're being forced to work anyway, then somebody's violating the 13th Amendment here.
I don't know if that's really true. You can be forced to be a soldier, and quite possibly die, and that's apparently A-OK with the 13th considering how many young men were drafted. How is a detention center more of a violation of one's ability to choose than the draft?
  #41  
Old 01-28-2018, 09:28 PM
Kolak of Twilo Kolak of Twilo is offline
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
In Shodan's world, accused and detained = convicted. Just as long as it's not he who stands accused and detained.
The darker the complexion, the more likely your formulation holds up. That seems to always up the indignation for our resident Troll King.
  #42  
Old 01-29-2018, 04:55 AM
casdave casdave is offline
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UK prisoners consist of 3 types, convicted, unconvicted on remand and Illegals.

Only convicted prisoners can be required to work, the others are offered the choice.

It has long been a wheeze for prisoners on remand to draw out their time as much as possible and remain in prison under the conditions that apply to unconvicted prisoners. This is because they know they will get convicted and be given a prison term, and the time they serve on remand is then deducted from their award.

For those prisoners it is better to have unlimited visits, more private cash, more access to legal phones etc - in short the terms of imprisonments for remand prisoners are very much easier than for convicted prisoners.

There are also strict limits on solitary confinement, the punishment must be proportionate and reviewed regularly with assessments by health professionals - a prisoner absolutely refusing to work might initially be given solitary for refusal to work but this would not be endless, they would almost certainly be given limited access to 'out of cell' time on a normal wing location, and they would get a couple of gym sessions a week (gym time is extremely important to prisoners) This is far from solitary confinement.
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