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Old 02-12-2018, 03:55 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Gender Segregation and the Olympics

Does anyone think it's a bit archaic / old-fashioned / oppressive / untoward to still maintain separate gendered events (e.g. men's and women's snowboarding / alpine skiing / hockey) in the Olympics? I watched a bit of mixed curling early on in the Olympics, and it seemed refreshingly inclusive. Any chance we see a "mixed snowboard halfpipe" event in 2022/2026/2030?
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:16 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Does anyone think it's a bit archaic / old-fashioned / oppressive / untoward to still maintain separate gendered events (e.g. men's and women's snowboarding / alpine skiing / hockey) in the Olympics? I watched a bit of mixed curling early on in the Olympics, and it seemed refreshingly inclusive. Any chance we see a "mixed snowboard halfpipe" event in 2022/2026/2030?
I don't think it's very oppressive to let women have a chance at some medals. Its perfectly understood that top men are better than top women in practically every sport. Even your curling example, men are way better. What makes you ask?

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-12-2018 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:16 PM
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Not anytime soon. Sports is one of the few remaining field in which gender differences are stark, easily recognized, and there is a clear athletic advantage.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:18 PM
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Women wouldn't make the finals in any of those events - so it'd be just easier to eliminate all the women's sports from the Olympics. The difference in strength in skiing, boarding, and hockey are vast. Men's and women's hockey are different enough that they're almost different sports.

What's the goal of combining them?
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:23 PM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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Previous thread.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:23 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... What makes you ask?
Watching the "mixed curling" is probably what got it on my mind. I don't even know the rules there. Could a team of just men (or just women) compete in the mixed curling event, or is it like co-ed soccer where there's a minimum number of women that must be included?

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... What's the goal of combining them?
I hadn't thought about it long or hard enough to come up with anything I'd grace with the label "goal". More like a curiosity. There seems to have been a big push in the last few years for including women in areas traditionally manned just by men (like the military), so it seemed like the timing might be about right for sports events to go gender-neutral too.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:27 PM
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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In other words "Why do they bother having lame sports for girls? Why can't we just have events open to everyone? Sure, that will mean that 98% of the events will be all men, but that's not a bug, that's a feature."

Yes Ditka, it is a fact of biology that men tend to be bigger, stronger, and faster than women. The NFL and NBA and MLB don't exclude women, women are perfectly welcome to tryout and compete with the men. So why is it that you don't see any female NBA players? Because the top players in the WNBA wouldn't make third string in the NBA.

If we don't have separate women's events that exclude men, then there won't be any women competing in the Olympics. Is that the result you're advocating?
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:30 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Watching the "mixed curling" is probably what got it on my mind. I don't even know the rules there. Could a team of just men (or just women) compete in the mixed curling event, or is it like co-ed soccer where there's a minimum number of women that must be included?.
It's on the tv right now - it looks like there's only 2 people per team. So I am guessing one of each is the rule. Regular curling is teams of 4 and I woukd imagine they'd be two of each in that case.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:34 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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In other words "Why do they bother having lame sports for girls? Why can't we just have events open to everyone? Sure, that will mean that 98% of the events will be all men, but that's not a bug, that's a feature."

Yes Ditka, it is a fact of biology that men tend to be bigger, stronger, and faster than women. The NFL and NBA and MLB don't exclude women, women are perfectly welcome to tryout and compete with the men. So why is it that you don't see any female NBA players? Because the top players in the WNBA wouldn't make third string in the NBA.

If we don't have separate women's events that exclude men, then there won't be any women competing in the Olympics. Is that the result you're advocating?
You think you are being cynically clever and getting ahead of him but my cynicism says you played right into his game. Why worry about equal pay and representation in different careers when these obvious biological difference exist which you so forcefully acknowledge? Hmmm?
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:37 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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There are some shooting events in the summer Olympics that could go co-ed, as it were, but I predict that women would get squeezed out eventually not because of some gender disparity in strength, but a gender disparity in interest, i.e. if there are a million potential elite target shooters in the U.S. that are men, there are likely only a fraction of that number who are women because shooting is seen as more of a male pastime and girls subtly (and not so subtly) discouraged from pursuing it. The cohort with the greater number is far more likely to dominate the top spots.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:45 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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There are some shooting events in the summer Olympics that could go co-ed, as it were, but I predict that women would get squeezed out eventually not because of some gender disparity in strength, but a gender disparity in interest, i.e. if there are a million potential elite target shooters in the U.S. that are men, there are likely only a fraction of that number who are women because shooting is seen as more of a male pastime and girls subtly (and not so subtly) discouraged from pursuing it. The cohort with the greater number is far more likely to dominate the top spots.
So men are better in every other sport, but in shooting it would only be because of the interest disparity? Seems an odd WAG.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:55 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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So men are better in every other sport, but in shooting it would only be because of the interest disparity? Seems an odd WAG.
Does it? The mechanics of shooting are such that personal physical strength is a fairly minor element (at least for the pistol and air-gun events) but if there are societal pressures that encourage boys to practice shooting and girls to not do so, then it seems reasonable that a larger pool of boy shooters will produce more elite competitors than a smaller pool of girl shooters.

Anyway, I see mixed-gender shooting events are planned for 2020, so we'll get some data soon enough.
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Old 02-12-2018, 05:13 PM
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As already stated, it would not make sense for women to compete with men on the same field in most events. However, I think a better question is why there exists a handicap for women competing against other women - on a different field altogether. For example, the women start lower down on the bobsled run and the downhill ski events. In the summer Rio games the women's road bike race covered a different (and shorter) course, and the women's marathon, while the same distance, covered a different (and flatter) route than the men's. In my hometown marathon the women run the same course at the same time as the men, but there are two finish lines, and I think there are some women-only running events, but they run the same course as the men.

I am sure there are other examples of women's events taking an easier course than the men's. What gives?
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Old 02-12-2018, 05:15 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
Does it? The mechanics of shooting are such that personal physical strength is a fairly minor element (at least for the pistol and air-gun events) but if there are societal pressures that encourage boys to practice shooting and girls to not do so, then it seems reasonable that a larger pool of boy shooters will produce more elite competitors than a smaller pool of girl shooters.

Anyway, I see mixed-gender shooting events are planned for 2020, so we'll get some data soon enough.
Bowling, archery, darts and pool also have minimal strength requirements but men dominate still.
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Old 02-12-2018, 05:31 PM
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Bowling, archery, darts and pool also have minimal strength requirements but men dominate still.
Strength is actually a factor in both bowling and archery. It is less of a factor than in the NBA or NFL, but still a factor and gives men an advantage. A cite for bowling, since it may seem less intuitive.

Darts and pool, like shooting are probably less dependent on physical strength. But you still have the issue Bryan Ekers mentioned, which is that probably one thousand times more men are interested in the sport than women. And they are far more likely to develop that interest earlier and hone their skills longer. Women will largely be swamped out by sheer numbers.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 02-12-2018 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 02-12-2018, 05:46 PM
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So men are better in every other sport, but in shooting it would only be because of the interest disparity? Seems an odd WAG.
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Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
There are some shooting events in the summer Olympics that could go co-ed, as it were, but I predict that women would get squeezed out eventually not because of some gender disparity in strength, but a gender disparity in interest, i.e. if there are a million potential elite target shooters in the U.S. that are men, there are likely only a fraction of that number who are women because shooting is seen as more of a male pastime and girls subtly (and not so subtly) discouraged from pursuing it. The cohort with the greater number is far more likely to dominate the top spots.
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Strength is actually a factor in both bowling and archery. It is less of a factor than in the NBA or NFL, but still a factor and gives men an advantage. A cite for bowling, since it may seem less intuitive.

Darts and pool, like shooting are probably less dependent on physical strength. But you still have the issue Bryan Ekers mentioned, which is that probably one thousand times more men are interested in the sport than women. And they are far more likely to develop that interest earlier and hone their skills longer. Women will largely be swamped out by sheer numbers.
Very generally:
In the rifle events, the women shoot a lighter weapon and fire fewer shots in the same time period.
I'd have to look up the specifics but strength does play a role.
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Old 02-12-2018, 06:04 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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In theory you could open both men's and women's gymnastics to both genders. My understanding is that women have advantages WRT the specific types of routines in women's gymnastics and vice versa, so I would think the gender representations would mostly remain without being official regulations.
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Darts and pool, like shooting are probably less dependent on physical strength. But you still have the issue Bryan Ekers mentioned, which is that probably one thousand times more men are interested in the sport than women. And they are far more likely to develop that interest earlier and hone their skills longer. Women will largely be swamped out by sheer numbers.
But that's a fundamentally different rationale than having separate genders because of inherent physical differences.

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Old 02-12-2018, 06:07 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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As already stated, it would not make sense for women to compete with men on the same field in most events. However, I think a better question is why there exists a handicap for women competing against other women - on a different field altogether. For example, the women start lower down on the bobsled run and the downhill ski events. In the summer Rio games the women's road bike race covered a different (and shorter) course, and the women's marathon, while the same distance, covered a different (and flatter) route than the men's. In my hometown marathon the women run the same course at the same time as the men, but there are two finish lines, and I think there are some women-only running events, but they run the same course as the men.

I am sure there are other examples of women's events taking an easier course than the men's.
One that comes to mind: the assorted tennis championships where men are settling the issue in best-of-five-sets fashion while the women are going best-of-three.
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Old 02-12-2018, 06:09 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Bowling, archery, darts and pool also have minimal strength requirements but men dominate still.
Well, darts and pool, certainly. I'm not sure that these are pursued and practiced at gender-comparable numbers, though.

Is there a sport that is actively played through child- and adulthood in equal numbers by both genders (or more so by girls) and which is largely strength-indifferent? Gymnastics? Figure-skating? Diving? For figure-skating, if the merits were completely artistic and not technical, i.e. no extra points for feats like a triple-axel, which favours male competitors...

I see surfing and skateboarding are being added in 2020, among others. These seem fairly gender-neutral. Of course, even if sports like these are pursued in comparable numbers of boys and girls, I figure lingering sexism will have male athletes getting more attention, more sponsorships and endorsement deals, more private funding, and that can certainly have an impact on performance.
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Old 02-12-2018, 06:16 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... Is there a sport that is actively played through child- and adulthood in equal numbers by both genders (or more so by girls) and which is largely strength-indifferent? ...
I suspect virtually every sport or hobby is pursued by unequal numbers of both genders. Overall, women / girls seem to show less interest in sports than men / boys (which is one of the reasons Title IX seems a bit off-base to me).
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Old 02-12-2018, 06:28 PM
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As already stated, it would not make sense for women to compete with men on the same field in most events. However, I think a better question is why there exists a handicap for women competing against other women - on a different field altogether. For example, the women start lower down on the bobsled run and the downhill ski events. In the summer Rio games the women's road bike race covered a different (and shorter) course, and the women's marathon, while the same distance, covered a different (and flatter) route than the men's. In my hometown marathon the women run the same course at the same time as the men, but there are two finish lines, and I think there are some women-only running events, but they run the same course as the men.

I am sure there are other examples of women's events taking an easier course than the men's. What gives?
Uh, same reason? The number of men who are physically capable of completing a rugged, hilly marathon course in any reasonable length of time greatly exceeds the number of women who can do so.
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Old 02-12-2018, 06:41 PM
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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But the time comparison for men vs women don't make any difference. If the top men complete the course in 2:10 and the top women complete the exact same course in 2:24, it doesn't matter that the women take longer since the men are judged against other men and the women are judged against other women.
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Old 02-12-2018, 06:47 PM
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Well, darts and pool, certainly. I'm not sure that these are pursued and practiced at gender-comparable numbers, though.

Is there a sport that is actively played through child- and adulthood in equal numbers by both genders (or more so by girls) and which is largely strength-indifferent? Gymnastics? Figure-skating? Diving? For figure-skating, if the merits were completely artistic and not technical, i.e. no extra points for feats like a triple-axel, which favours male competitors...
If you start judging solely on artistic merit, it stops being a sport, imho.

There's really no need to start assuming a sexist bias in this area. There might be but t sure seems at face value that men are just better at sports in general.
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Old 02-12-2018, 06:53 PM
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It's on the tv right now - it looks like there's only 2 people per team. So I am guessing one of each is the rule. Regular curling is teams of 4 and I woukd imagine they'd be two of each in that case.
At the Olympics there's men's (4 men), women's (4 women), and mixed doubles (1 man and 1 woman, and significant changes in rules and strategy). The tournament was scheduled so that mixed doubles would end before the single-gender events begin, so that players could compete in both. Both the U.S. players will be, but some countries didn't allow it in their selection process. At the club level there are also mixed (2 men and 2 women alternative shot order), and open (4 people).

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In my hometown marathon the women run the same course at the same time as the men, but there are two finish lines, and I think there are some women-only running events, but they run the same course as the men.
In Boston, the men and women run the same course, but don't start at the same time. At least, among the competitive elite athletes they do. I think the start order is women's wheelchair, men's wheelchair, elite women, elite men, and then everyone else. I always figured they used different finish lines for the men and women because the clock is different, they can get good TV pictures of the finishers, etc.

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One that comes to mind: the assorted tennis championships where men are settling the issue in best-of-five-sets fashion while the women are going best-of-three.
I've heard it said that this actually favors women. The prize money is the same, but since the women play less it works out that they're making more money per hour, or per game than the men. I think women are also more likely to participate in singles and doubles because the singles is less taxing.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:34 PM
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But the time comparison for men vs women don't make any difference. If the top men complete the course in 2:10 and the top women complete the exact same course in 2:24, it doesn't matter that the women take longer since the men are judged against other men and the women are judged against other women.
Running a marathon is a grueling, painful experience. Make the course too difficult for women and the majority of those women might simply decide to drop out, rather than to run it in 2:24.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:46 PM
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Running a marathon is a grueling, painful experience. Make the course too difficult for women and the majority of those women might simply decide to drop out, rather than to run it in 2:24.
It doesn't get tougher than the Western States100 and women finish that.
.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:10 PM
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It doesn't get tougher than the Western States100 and women finish that.
.
The Self-Transcendence 3100 Mile Race.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:25 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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It doesn't get tougher than the Western States100 and women finish that.
.
Utah's sounds a bit worse (but women finish that too - although the record is apparently almost 4 hours slower than the men's).

I'll give a double fuck-that to the whole idea of ultramarathoning though:

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Wasatch gains cumulatively 28,700 feet in elevation as it traverses the Wasatch Front, commanding vistas of basin and range country, the Great Salt Lake, steep canyons, broad plateaus, and craggy peaks. The course begins east of Kaysville and follows the top of the Wasatch Range before ending in Soldier Hollow. Altitude ranges from 4,700 to 10,460 feet, and temperatures range from 80s in the shade during the day to 20s on the high ridges at night. September weather in Utah can vary widely. Some years heat is a major factor, while in 2010 runners negotiated fresh snow for four miles in the early stages of the race.
I backpack at 10,000+ feet regularly (and rather slowly) and I'd only run if a bear was chasing me, and even then I'm sure I'd make a total hash out of it and be exhausted (and dead) very quickly.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:37 PM
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I backpack at 10,000+ feet regularly (and rather slowly) and I'd only run if a bear was chasing me, and even then I'm sure I'd make a total hash out of it and be exhausted (and dead) very quickly.
The most critical piece of hiking equipment for those circumstances is a hiking partner you can outrun.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:47 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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The most critical piece of hiking equipment for those circumstances is a hiking partner you can outrun.
Shit, I think that's what I am for my buddies.

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Old 02-12-2018, 09:00 PM
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If you are at 10,000 bears are no longer a large concern, now moose...they are responsible for more attacks than grizzly bear and black bears combined.


I don't think that the gender divide makes much sense in many of the competitions. Can men's typical size advantage really mean much in curling? In some sports the women probably have advantage if only body size is considered.

Hopefully this changes within my lifetime.

Last edited by rat avatar; 02-12-2018 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:45 PM
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There are some shooting events in the summer Olympics that could go co-ed, as it were, but I predict that women would get squeezed out eventually not because of some gender disparity in strength, but a gender disparity in interest, i.e. if there are a million potential elite target shooters in the U.S. that are men, there are likely only a fraction of that number who are women because shooting is seen as more of a male pastime and girls subtly (and not so subtly) discouraged from pursuing it. The cohort with the greater number is far more likely to dominate the top spots.
The equestrian events at the Olympics are completely gender-neutral. Men and women compete against each other, and the teams can be any combination of men & women.

But riding horses in general is very much female dominated. And the Olympic teams repeat this, with about 75% of them being female. But consistently the men win more of the medals. Possibly due to bias by the Judges, but it holds true even in events where the result is more numerically objective, like jumping.
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:44 AM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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If you are at 10,000 bears are no longer a large concern, now moose...they are responsible for more attacks than grizzly bear and black bears combined.


I don't think that the gender divide makes much sense in many of the competitions. Can men's typical size advantage really mean much in curling? In some sports the women probably have advantage if only body size is considered.

Hopefully this changes within my lifetime.
With all due respect, in most sports it makes obvious sense. Men have physical advantages. And if you accept that there are physical differences, it is not beyond reason to suggest that in the less obvious sports there is a mental difference that has a male advantage. I know that there's well studied differences in pattern recognition, for example. From an evolutionary view it's not outlandish to think men might average better at mentally judging trajectories and being able to apply that judgement.
  #34  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:46 AM
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Does seem like it would advance equality.
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:57 AM
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With all due respect, in most sports it makes obvious sense. Men have physical advantages. And if you accept that there are physical differences, it is not beyond reason to suggest that in the less obvious sports there is a mental difference that has a male advantage. I know that there's well studied differences in pattern recognition, for example. From an evolutionary view it's not outlandish to think men might average better at mentally judging trajectories and being able to apply that judgement.

Alpine Skiing
Biathlon
Bobsled
Cross Country
Curling
Figure Skating
Freestyle Skiing
Ice Hockey
Luge
Nordic Combined
Speed Skating
Skeleton
Ski Jumping
Snowboarding
In that list, there are several that benefit from lower weight or lower weight compared to surface area.

As in a few women were only given their first ski jumping event in 2014 I think that your assumption would require qualification. Time and experience will be required to tell.

As size also excludes the majority of men, who aren’t big enough to play in sports where that matters where do we have co-ed competitions that are based on weight class?

In some of these like Skeleton lighter athletes are allowed to use heavier sleds to partially mitigate weight advantages, but even in the case of the Biathlon, time lost at the shooting range, is the only major difference and could be made up by training and experience.

http://www.realbiathlon.com/2013/08/...-or-women.html

Do you have any cites that definitively prove my ideas as false?

I would think that a coaching gap could explain a lot of the difference in some of these sports.

Last edited by rat avatar; 02-13-2018 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:00 AM
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If you are at 10,000 bears are no longer a large concern, now moose...they are responsible for more attacks than grizzly bear and black bears combined.
Alas, bears are a big concern above 10,000 feet, as many a hiker can tell you. One of the grizzly bear's favorite treats is the army cutworm moth, which contain a surprising amount of fat. Grizzlies eat a LOT of those moths. They're like the potato chips of the grizzly world. I used to live near Yellowstone Park, and stories abound of bear encounters above 10k feet. Here's a more authoritative source:

Quote:
During the summer months in the Yellowstone area, these moths congregate on sub-alpine plants located above the timberline at elevations higher than 10,000 feet. During the early morning hours these moths drink nectar and then during the day they cluster on the surrounding rocks. Grizzlies from all around climb to these high elevations to consume 10,000 to 20,000 of these moths a day. At times like this, when food is abundant, numerous grizzlies will congregate and feed together. Once the food source is depleted, the grizzlies will go their separate ways in search of other food (Bauer and Bauer 1996, p 67).
Not trying to jack the thread. I just hate to think people might assume they're safe from bears if they reach that elevation.
  #37  
Old 02-13-2018, 01:22 AM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Originally Posted by rat avatar View Post

Alpine Skiing
Biathlon
Bobsled
Cross Country
Curling
Figure Skating
Freestyle Skiing
Ice Hockey
Luge
Nordic Combined
Speed Skating
Skeleton
Ski Jumping
Snowboarding
In that list, there are several that benefit from lower weight or lower weight compared to surface area.

As in a few women were only given their first ski jumping event in 2014 I think that your assumption would require qualification. Time and experience will be required to tell.

As size also excludes the majority of men, who aren’t big enough to play in sports where that matters where do we have co-ed competitions that are based on weight class?

In some of these like Skeleton lighter athletes are allowed to use heavier sleds to partially mitigate weight advantages, but even in the case of the Biathlon, time lost at the shooting range, is the only major difference and could be made up by training and experience.

http://www.realbiathlon.com/2013/08/...-or-women.html

Do you have any cites that definitively prove my ideas as false?
Speed skating? Is that one even close? And your own biathlon cite still mostly gives the advantage to men with it only being shakier on the shooting accuracy. Rather than "find a cite that proves your ideas false", which I'm not even sure would entail, I'll link a cite to what I talked about:
Are Differences Between Men and Women in Rotated Pattern Recognition Due to the Use of Different Cognitive Strategies?
Quote:
Performance on mental rotation tasks may be influenced by gender differences in information processing. Mental rotation tasks based on comparison – where participants are asked to decide whether a pair of objects are identical or not – show consistent performance differences in favour of men. Findings from these kinds of tasks are the basis for the hypothesis that men employ a holistic, global approach to mental rotation in which they rotate the entire stimulus as a whole and then compare it to the target, whereas women employ a local, piecemeal approach in which individual features or parts are rotated and compared separately, piece by piece, to the target (e.g., Heil & Jansen-Osmann, 2008; Kail, Carter, & Pellegrino, 1979; Rilea, 2008).

Investigations varying the number of figures that subjects need to match have provided additional data regarding the different strategies that men and women use. These studies suggest that men rely more on a match-jump strategy: for example, once men have identified the matching target, they jump to the next problem without verifying the remaining stimuli, which presumably do not match, and thus progress through the test more quickly and have a chance to respond to more questions. In contrast, women tend to match every single figure to the target, even after identifying a match, and thus do not advance through the test as quickly, and often are unable to finish tests that have a fixed time limit (e.g., Glück & Fabrizii, 2010; Hirnstein, Bayer, & Hausmann, 2009).

In addition to a slower speed of responding, examination of the relations between self-reported confidence, performance and guessing behavior on mental rotation tasks indicates that men have a more accurate perception of their performance and were significantly more confident in their responses than women (e.g., Blough & Slavin, 1987; Cooke-Simpson & Voyer, 2007; Delgado & Prieto, 1996; Goldstein, Haldane, & Mitchell, 1990).
Maybe some of that is socialization or coaching but I don't know. But I doubt it'll change much in your lifetime.

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-13-2018 at 01:26 AM.
  #38  
Old 02-13-2018, 01:35 AM
Jacquernagy Jacquernagy is online now
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I can't really understand what the OP is on about and I really don't care. I just had to add this:

I never watched or cared about any Olympics before in my life, but the Women's Halfpipe happened to be on earlier and I began watching idly. I quickly became amazed at what they were doing: the multiple flips and twists over the side... I kept thinking, "how in the hell do they do that?" I have never watched any kind of snowboarding event before and was really, really impressed.

Then a little while later, I saw the Men's Halfpipe.

Holy fuckin' shit. The level of intricacy of the male snowboarder's flips and tricks was astonishingly superior to the women's. Again, I have never seen anyone snowboarding before in my life and I had no preconceived notion of what it was supposed to look like. But it was obvious that whatever kind of physicality is necessary to pull that off, the best of the women were in no way equal to the best of the men. It wasn't merely that the men were doing more flipping and flying, it's that they made it look so easy whereas the women were visibly exerting more physical effort. I could tell those women (and they were damn good, I'm not trying to take anything away from them) really had to grind out every last bit of physical effort to muscle their way over the sides and into the spins and flips, and it showed. The men moved as if they were powered by high-performance engines.
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  #39  
Old 02-13-2018, 01:43 AM
rat avatar rat avatar is offline
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Speed skating? Is that one even close? And your own biathlon cite still mostly gives the advantage to men with it only being shakier on the shooting accuracy. Rather than "find a cite that proves your ideas false", which I'm not even sure would entail, I'll link a cite to what I talked about:
Are Differences Between Men and Women in Rotated Pattern Recognition Due to the Use of Different Cognitive Strategies?

Maybe some of that is socialization or coaching but I don't know. But I doubt it'll change much in your lifetime.
Nothing in your cite proves a biological difference there, it could be based on gender norms etc..

Also note:

Quote:
Although, these results provide a base to tackle what really differs from the spatial abilities between men and women, they cannot yet be firmly validated because of the small sample size. Thus, further studies with larger sample sizes are needed.
Can you provide a cite that there is a biological bases for some cognitive difference that cannot be overcome by the elite examples of each gender?

Sure the number of women who may be able to compete in the worlds strongest man competition may be a lower number than those who are large enough and are male, but you are claiming a fundamental difference in general, and your cite does nothing to support your claim.
  #40  
Old 02-13-2018, 01:45 AM
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rat avatar seems to be Labouring under the common misconception that since strength is not everything, it’s the same as saying strength is nothing.

All the sports listed have fairly high strength requirements.
  #41  
Old 02-13-2018, 01:46 AM
rat avatar rat avatar is offline
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Alas, bears are a big concern above 10,000 feet, as many a hiker can tell you. One of the grizzly bear's favorite treats is the army cutworm moth, which contain a surprising amount of fat. Grizzlies eat a LOT of those moths. They're like the potato chips of the grizzly world. I used to live near Yellowstone Park, and stories abound of bear encounters above 10k feet. Here's a more authoritative source:



Not trying to jack the thread. I just hate to think people might assume they're safe from bears if they reach that elevation.
I grew up in that area, while not claiming authority as a USFS wilderness ranger (most of my time was in the high Uintas).

When bears are at that altitude food is plentiful, and are not likely to be running or riding bikes which increases chances of attack.

But lets be clear, bear attacks and fatalities are rare.

https://public.tableau.com/shared/44...play_count=yes

Exposure, falls and navigation errors are far higher risks,

And note the Travel in the backcountry: 1 in 232,000 person travel days


Or about one bear injury inside the park for every 8.6 human lifetimes of exposure inside the parks back-county.

Last edited by rat avatar; 02-13-2018 at 01:47 AM.
  #42  
Old 02-13-2018, 02:03 AM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Originally Posted by rat avatar View Post
Nothing in your cite proves a biological difference there, it could be based on gender norms etc..

Also note:



Can you provide a cite that there is a biological bases for some cognitive difference that cannot be overcome by the elite examples of each gender?

Sure the number of women who may be able to compete in the worlds strongest man competition may be a lower number than those who are large enough and are male, but you are claiming a fundamental difference in general, and your cite does nothing to support your claim.
I don't have to prove you wrong. You said that you can't see a good reason there was a difference in many sports, it must be caused by a Male v Female societal difference. Since there are quite obvious physical differences, and you are not claiming any expertise in sports science or male-female brain morphology , I don't feel very compelled by your hunch.

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-13-2018 at 02:06 AM.
  #43  
Old 02-13-2018, 02:31 AM
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What? I just noticed you have "ice"(??) hockey on your list. You sir, should not be speaking on this subject at all if you think there's no obvious physical advantage to men in hockey.
  #44  
Old 02-13-2018, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Tamerlane View Post
Strength is actually a factor in both bowling and archery.
In archery it affects how far one can shoot, but for olympic events distances are fixed. I don't think that using the distance at which female archers now shoot would provide the men with an advantage. It would remove part of the pleasure for those male archers who love explaining to the ladies that "we shoot further" (I know, it was explained on the first day and I've got eyes, I can see your butts are further).

But there definitely is a social difference (which like all social things varies by location): the first day of my intro course involved a lot of men very-carefully not looking in our direction and the only one who said something before lunch was an imbecile; both in clubs and in the few events I've attended I always see more male than female archers. The recent spate of archery movies has done a lot to change that but we're talking about going from often-zero to a visible minority. So long as the pools are so biased, I'd at least like to have the option of having both ungendered and gendered events.
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Last edited by Nava; 02-13-2018 at 04:30 AM.
  #45  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:25 AM
rat avatar rat avatar is offline
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
What? I just noticed you have "ice"(??) hockey on your list. You sir, should not be speaking on this subject at all if you think there's no obvious physical advantage to men in hockey.

That was a listing of all of the events I could think of in the Winter Olympics, not that all would be equal, but that many could be very close.
  #46  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Does anyone think it's a bit archaic / old-fashioned / oppressive / untoward to still maintain separate gendered events (e.g. men's and women's snowboarding / alpine skiing / hockey) in the Olympics? I watched a bit of mixed curling early on in the Olympics, and it seemed refreshingly inclusive. Any chance we see a "mixed snowboard halfpipe" event in 2022/2026/2030?
No, there isn't.

The reason there's separate women's events is because in 99% of events, they wouldn't even be able to make the Olympics. Or, if you mandated a number of women had to be in the event, they would always lose by a ridiculous margin.

I have to assume rat avatar is kidding around when, for instance, he cites "ice hockey" as a sport women could compete with me in. I love women's hockey but if you asked women to compete with men the skater, at least, would at best have a 50-50 shot of even making it to the end of the game.

I have endless respect for women athletes. They do amazing things. They cannot compete with men; it's just not a fair contest.
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Last edited by RickJay; 02-13-2018 at 08:27 AM.
  #47  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:30 AM
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Not a winter sport, but I wonder if croquet is a gender-equal sport?
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  #48  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:35 AM
rat avatar rat avatar is offline
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
I don't have to prove you wrong. You said that you can't see a good reason there was a difference in many sports, it must be caused by a Male v Female societal difference. Since there are quite obvious physical differences, and you are not claiming any expertise in sports science or male-female brain morphology , I don't feel very compelled by your hunch.
You were claiming cognitive differences based on sex, I cannot prove the negative there, you have to show biological evidence for this extraordinary claim.

I am betting you are no Brittney Griner yourself, I know I couldn't compete with her.

To presuppose some pseudoscientific biological traits when the reasons may be more social than physical does nothing to justify keeping this divide in the long term.

Last edited by rat avatar; 02-13-2018 at 08:38 AM.
  #49  
Old 02-13-2018, 09:16 AM
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I remember back in the day, 03 I believe, Annika Sorenstam played in a men's golf tournament, The Colonial Open. She had already won 42 LPGA career titles and was considered too good to play with women. The Colonial course is/was the shortest on tour registering about 350 yds longer than LPGA courses.

I thought it would be a great test because...yes, technically she is competing score wise with men but ultimately she is playing against the course and the course doesn't know if you are a man or woman.

She had a good first round but in the end, she didn't make the cut. She was literally the best female golfer in the WORLD and didn't make the cut in a tournament where many big name players didn't even play and many amateurs made the cut.

I've never really played darts but a sport that comes to mind where women could, if they are not already, compete with men is pool/billiards. It literally takes no strength and requires finesse. Allison Fisher comes to mind as someone who can hang and most likely hold her own in the sport of billiards including snooker.
  #50  
Old 02-13-2018, 09:17 AM
NorthernStar NorthernStar is offline
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Originally Posted by rat avatar View Post
In some of these like Skeleton lighter athletes are allowed to use heavier sleds to partially mitigate weight advantages, but even in the case of the Biathlon, time lost at the shooting range, is the only major difference and could be made up by training and experience.
1) Nobody wants to use a heavier sled in skeleton. That would be a major handicap in the start, which is very important - a quick rule of thumb is, all other elements (sled and runner quality, steering/driving skill, weight) being equal, a 0.1s start time difference results in 0.2s to 0.3s difference in finish time.

2) While the difference in shooting accuracy between top female and top male biathletes may be small, biathlon also includes a lot of skiing. As it happens, most of the typical biathlon race distances are used in both women's and men's races on virtually identical courses. There may be some differences in race format and penalty system (for instance, women receive a one minute time penalty for a miss in the 15 km race, while the men ski penalty laps), but nowadays all major biathlon races provide a very detailed statistics breakdown, including "pure skiing" and "pure shooting" times for each participant. Using that data, noticeable differences between the skiing performances of each gender are plainly visible.

Last edited by NorthernStar; 02-13-2018 at 09:20 AM. Reason: typo
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