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Old 02-21-2018, 08:56 AM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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Billy Graham dies at 99

Graham's Crusades for Christ were a regular fixture on tv for much of my early life. His organization presented specials that ran a couple times a year.

I always enjoyed hearing his sermons. He created a wonderful organization that transformed many lives.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.c...bit/index.html

Last edited by aceplace57; 02-21-2018 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 02-21-2018, 08:59 AM
Sir T-Cups Sir T-Cups is offline
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Billy: I am here Jesus, I am awaiting my paradise!

Jesus: Look Bill, you did my work pretty good...but you were kiiiiiiind of an asshole about it...
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:06 AM
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I'm ambivalent about him. On one hand, he seems to be quite sincere in his beliefs and he wasn't one of these "send my money and I'll have God bless you" televangelists. On the other, he seemed to be an "America! Fuck yeah!" kind of guy. I don't think fervent nationalism and Christianity are compatible. Plus, he afflicted the world with Franklin Graham, who has a vicious anti-gay and pro-Republican agenda.
Quote:
In my opinion, Putin is right on these issues. Obviously, he may be wrong about many things, but he has taken a stand to protect his nation's children from the damaging effects of any gay and lesbian agenda.
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/franklin_graham
He also praised T***p on many occasions, another trait incompatible with Christianity.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:09 AM
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Screw him. He was Nixon’s Holy Roller lap dog.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:16 AM
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To be fair, he preached with Martin Luther King and he wouldn't preach in South Africa unless the crowds were integrated. On race relations, he was quite a bit ahead of his time.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:37 AM
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Graham has been frail for quite a few years. He hasn't been involved in the National discourse for over a decade. It's probably closer to two decades since he was regularly seen on tv in the news.

So many evangelists got caught up in scandal. Jimmy Swaggart and Jim & Tammy Faye Baker being the most notorious examples.

Billy was the exception that wasn't in it for the money or fame. He preached salvation through Christ and that message never wavered throughout his seventy year ministry.

Last edited by aceplace57; 02-21-2018 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:38 AM
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To be fair, he preached with Martin Luther King and he wouldn't preach in South Africa unless the crowds were integrated. On race relations, he was quite a bit ahead of his time.
Bully for him. He’s still playin’ cribbage in Hell with Billy Sunday right now, and the deck is missing all the Jacks.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:45 AM
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Plus, he afflicted the world with Franklin Graham, who has a vicious anti-gay and pro-Republican agenda.
I don't think it's all that fair to blame the parents for how the kids turned out. Especially kids of famous parents. I think Billy would be somewhat appalled by how Franklin is acting if he had been in his right mind the last few years.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:52 AM
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I was sure that Billy Graham would make it to 100 or more. Almost, but not quite, I guess.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:56 AM
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Billy Graham and gangster Mickey Cohen...

https://www.criminalelement.com/blog...n-jake-hinkson

Last edited by Dropo; 02-21-2018 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:59 AM
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To be fair, his daughter deserves some note, too.
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:09 AM
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Loved him in the WWF.
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:19 AM
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Screw him. He was Nixon’s Holy Roller lap dog.
Christopher Hitchens called him a "religious valet" to the presidents.
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:49 AM
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Don't know anything about his religious work, but I always liked his crackers.
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:50 AM
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The Dope weighed in a few years ago: Billy Graham; he's one of the good guys, right?
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:54 AM
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Don't know anything about his religious work, but I always liked his crackers.
Graham crackers were originally invented by a Presbyterian minister to prevent masturbation*, so you're not to far off the mark.

*They were originally blander. Exciting food = Satan fuel, was the thinking.
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:56 AM
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He preached salvation through Christ and that message never wavered throughout his seventy year ministry.
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Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike View Post
Bully for him. He’s still playin’ cribbage in Hell with Billy Sunday right now, and the deck is missing all the Jacks.
If he did the first quote, then the second quote wouldn't be true.
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Old 02-21-2018, 11:19 AM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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A good quote that may show how different Billy was from his son, Franklin:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Billy Graham
I’m for morality. But morality goes beyond sex to human freedom and social justice. We as clergy know so very little to speak out with such authority on the Panama Canal or superiority of armaments. Evangelists can’t be closely identified with any particular party or person. We have to stand in the middle to preach to all people, right and left. I haven’t been faithful to my own advice in the past. I will be in the future.
And furthermore:

Quote:
I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. Liberals organized in the ’60s, and conservatives certainly have a right to organize in the ’80s, but it would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it.
I believe both quotes arise from a February 1981 cover story in Parade magazine
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Old 02-21-2018, 11:19 AM
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If you are ever so unfortunate to have to visit the Metropolitan (traffic) Court of Los Angeles, you'll find that the entrance is plays host to this plaque. It doesn't make the experience any less unpleasant.
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Old 02-21-2018, 11:45 AM
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Say 'Hi' to my Daddy, Rev. Graham.
He loved you with his whole drunken, gambling self.
Jesus was also his friend, so I am fairly certain he's playing ponies up there somewhere. He always said the track was like heaven, to him.
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Old 02-21-2018, 11:53 AM
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Let’s remember this thread when (someone such as) Betty White dies, and someone posts to call her a crusty, old bitch. Then some poster whines about it being, “too soon” or some shit.

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Old 02-21-2018, 11:54 AM
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Hard to take anyone named "Billy" too seriously.
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:00 PM
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Graham and Nixon on the Jews:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2013/11...illion-people/

Quote:
On the account of James Warren in the Chicago Tribune, who has filed excellent stories down the years on Nixon’s tapes, in this 1972 Oval Office session between Nixon, Haldeman and Graham, the President raises a topic about which “we can’t talk about it publicly,” namely Jewish influence in Hollywood and the media.

Nixon cites Paul Keyes, a political conservative who was executive producer of the NBC hit, “Rowan and Martin’s Laugh-In,” as telling him that “11 of the 12 writers are Jewish.”

“That right?” says Graham, prompting Nixon to claim that Life magazine, Newsweek, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and others, are “totally dominated by the Jews.”

Nixon says network TV anchors Howard K. Smith, David Brinkley and Walter Cronkite “front men who may not be of that persuasion,” but that their writers are “95 percent Jewish.”

“This stranglehold has got to be broken or the country’s going down the drain,” the nation’s best-known preacher declares.

“You believe that?” Nixon says.

“Yes, sir,” Graham says.

“Oh, boy,” replies Nixon.

“So do I. I can’t ever say that but I believe it.”

“No, but if you get elected a second time, then we might be able to do something,” Graham replies.

Magnanimously Nixon concedes that this does not mean “that all the Jews are bad,” but that most are left-wing radicals who want “peace at any price except where support for Israel is concerned. The best Jews are actually the Israeli Jews.”

“That’s right,” agrees Graham, who later concurs with a Nixon assertion that a “powerful bloc” of Jews confronts Nixon in the media.

“And they’re the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,” Graham adds.

Later Graham says that “a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine. They swarm around me and are friendly to me. Because they know I am friendly to Israel and so forth. They don’t know how I really feel about what they’re doing to this country.”
He also advocated a bombing campaign in Vietnam that, had it been implemented, might have killed a million people.

That he was right and decent on some issues doesn't excuse that he was utterly monstrous, in a way that can't be excused as just hailing from another era, on other issues.
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:06 PM
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Not a fan myself, based on his support for a number of policies/positions I abhor.

His mothership (Wheaton college) just west of me is a waste of otherwise useful (and taxable) real estate, poisoning young minds.

Yeah, I'm sure he loved his family, but he definitely supported a ton of shit I detest.

Q: Why won't Wheaton students have sex in front of an open window?

A: Someone might see them and think they are dancing!
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Graham and Nixon on the Jews:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2013/11...illion-people/



He also advocated a bombing campaign in Vietnam that, had it been implemented, might have killed a million people.

That he was right and decent on some issues doesn't excuse that he was utterly monstrous, in a way that can't be excused as just hailing from another era, on other issues.
Our bombing campaigns in WWII killed more than a million people and they were scientifically planned to maximize destruction and death. Were they monstrous? The bombing campaigns in Vietnam were intended to bring the North Vietnamese to the bargaining table.

Source on WWII bombings The Fire by Jorg Freidrich.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:28 PM
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Our bombing campaigns in WWII killed more than a million people and they were scientifically planned to maximize destruction and death. Were they monstrous? The bombing campaigns in Vietnam were intended to bring the North Vietnamese to the bargaining table.

Source on WWII bombings The Fire by Jorg Freidrich.
Are the Viet Cong and the Nazis morally equivalent?

Was WWII as morally controversial as Vietnam?
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:39 PM
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Why the fuck is this thread in Cafe Society, by the way? Is Jeeziz Freeking considered an Art Form these days?
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:41 PM
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I'll decline the chance to engage in a hijack. I think Graham was a highly mixed bag -- I'll praise his memory for his support for integration, and I'll be highly critical of his bigoted assertions about the Jews, and his advocacy for warmongering.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:45 PM
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The Charlotte Observer has a balanced article on Billy. Discusses his strengths and also short comings. Billy had a long career. It's not surprising that he sometimes went in the wrong direction. Imho he was a good man that tried hard to make the right choices in a complicated and ever changing world.

His Crusade specials were on tv a lot in the 60's,70's, and 80's. I think even into the 90's they were still occasionally aired.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.cha...201269154.html
Quote:
By the late 1950s, Graham had developed a reputation for refusing to preach to racially segregated crowds. It was a decision that brought him death threats.

“Christianity is not a white man’s religion, and don’t let anybody tell you that it’s black and white,” Graham preached. “Christ belongs to all people.”

In 1957, he was among those urging Eisenhower to send federal troops to Little Rock, Ark., to enforce desegregation of Central High School.

The same year, Graham also sent a letter to Dorothy Counts, a 15-year-old black girl in Charlotte who was spit on and heckled by whites as she walked to class at previously all-white Harding High School. “Those cowardly whites against you will never prosper because they are un-American and unfit to lead,” Graham’s letter said.

But Graham’s support for blacks’ quest for equality began to cool in the 1960s as the civil rights movement, grew more confrontational with its marches and nonviolent resistance.

Last edited by aceplace57; 02-21-2018 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:52 PM
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Why the fuck is this thread in Cafe Society, by the way?
Well he does have a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.
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Old 02-21-2018, 02:23 PM
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I didn't know that. Awesome.
Thank you.

He got the Star in 1989. I don't recall hearing about it.
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/event/...re-id105166904

Last edited by aceplace57; 02-21-2018 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 02-21-2018, 02:33 PM
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My earliest memories of him were him bumping my tv shows. "Who's this old guy? I want to see Batman."
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:24 PM
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I'll decline the chance to engage in a hijack. I think Graham was a highly mixed bag -- I'll praise his memory for his support for integration, and I'll be highly critical of his bigoted assertions about the Jews, and his advocacy for warmongering.
He later expressed sincere remorse for that and not only advocated support for Israel but condemned efforts to convert Jews to Christianity.

And sadly, he wasn't the only one encouraging the bombing of Vietnam.

I mean, this was a time when his fellow fundies didn't consider Catholics Christians, he made common cause with JFK. I like to think that counts for something. He had his faults, but I think his good points out weigh them.


(His son, on the other hand? Total jagoff)
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:32 PM
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Quoth Ukulele Ike:

Why the fuck is this thread in Cafe Society, by the way? Is Jeeziz Freeking considered an Art Form these days?
A good point.

I guess the closest fit would be MPSIMS. Moving.
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:46 PM
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A good point.

I guess the closest fit would be MPSIMS. Moving.
You could merge it with the one in IMHO: "Billy Graham; he's one of the good guys, right? (UPDATED: dead)"
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:19 PM
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Let’s remember this thread when (someone such as) Betty White dies, and someone posts to call her a crusty, old bitch.
She'd be the first to admit it.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:52 AM
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I'll decline the chance to engage in a hijack. I think Graham was a highly mixed bag -- I'll praise his memory for his support for integration, and I'll be highly critical of his bigoted assertions about the Jews, and his advocacy for warmongering.
The dubious hijack you brought up.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:56 AM
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You'll forgive those of us whose general existence has been argued against by Abrahamic religionists for our whole lives if we don't particularly mourn an unrepentant hater of us, I hope.
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Old 02-22-2018, 05:46 AM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is online now
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Christopher Hitchens called him a "religious valet" to the presidents.
How so?

I saw a picture of him with Obama ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_...lly_Graham.jpg ) where Obama seemed eager to be warm & chummy with him. It doesn't seem like Obama in 2010 had to go out of his way to get the evangelical vote. I also remember Katie Couric in the late 90s/early 2000s being very warm to him despite his views on women and gays. What's up with that?
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:07 AM
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Of all the clergy I saw on TV Billy Graham was the only one I liked or respected. His sermons were pretty much right from the Bible, and his group didn't pound you for donations. At the end of his televised crusades the announcer would encourage everyone who was watching, or who had felt moved, to be in church on Sunday. Not a particular flavor of church even. I never heard a breath of sexual scandal either, like some of the others. I once read he made it a point never to be alone with any woman but his wife. I'm sorry he's gone.
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:13 AM
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Of all the clergy I saw on TV Billy Graham was the only one I liked or respected. His sermons were pretty much right from the Bible, and his group didn't pound you for donations. At the end of his televised crusades the announcer would encourage everyone who was watching, or who had felt moved, to be in church on Sunday. Not a particular flavor of church even. I never heard a breath of sexual scandal either, like some of the others. I once read he made it a point never to be alone with any woman but his wife. I'm sorry he's gone.
Thing is though, he was anti-gay was he not? That is a massive black mark against anyone and I don't think being religious gives him a free pass.
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:31 AM
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The dubious hijack you brought up.
Anything other than praise was a hijack? I disagree. I understand you might disagree with my characterization, and that's fine, but delving in to argue about it would be a hijack.
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:33 AM
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Thing is though, he was anti-gay was he not? That is a massive black mark against anyone and I don't think being religious gives him a free pass.
Also thought that the women was as a wife, mother and homemaker.

He denied having agreed with Nixon's antisemitic opinions. Then, only when declassified Nixon tapes came out which confirmed his antisemitic statements, said it was a long time ago and didn't represent his views anymore. He might have had more credibility in saying it didn't represent his views if he'd said that before tapes provided undeniable evidence of his statements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_...#Controversies

He was a smiling, chummy version of Jerry Falwell.

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Old 02-22-2018, 10:41 AM
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Thing is though, he was anti-gay was he not? That is a massive black mark against anyone and I don't think being religious gives him a free pass.
Not that this totally excuses any of his beliefs, but he was a 99 year old white Southerner. I do wonder what he would have thought on the matter if he was in his right mind in the last decade. It is not a mark in his favor, though, no.

OTOH, Westboro Baptist Church is planning on picketing his funeral and is saying that Graham is now in Hell - which is generally my cue for when someone is a decent person.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:54 AM
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Not that this totally excuses any of his beliefs, but he was a 99 year old white Southerner. I do wonder what he would have thought on the matter if he was in his right mind in the last decade. It is not a mark in his favor, though, no.

OTOH, Westboro Baptist Church is planning on picketing his funeral and is saying that Graham is now in Hell - which is generally my cue for when someone is a decent person.
The best you can say about him is that he wasn't as filled with bile and hate as a lot of other evangelists but then that's a low bar.

And I normally judge people's decency by what they say and do, particularly in regard to treating everyone equally regardless of gender, sex, race, religion, sexuality etc. etc. You get the picture. If they don't even come up to my standards then I'd be struggling to consider them "decent".

The WBC are wingnut arseholes, I don't think you can rely on them to have a consistent approach other than hating pretty much everyone, regardless of character. If Jesus came back today they'd probably denounce him for wearing his hair long and hanging round with a bunch of single young men.
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:22 AM
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And I normally judge people's decency by what they say and do, particularly in regard to treating everyone equally regardless of gender, sex, race, religion, sexuality etc. etc. You get the picture. If they don't even come up to my standards then I'd be struggling to consider them "decent".
In terms of race, one can say that Billy Graham exceeded the bar by quite a bit, especially in the 1950s. He also got in some hot water by other evangelicals for treating people of other faiths equally (probably why Westboro is protesting him). Probably could have been better on the others. However, other people of his age weren't paragons of morality on those issues - Martin Luther King, Jr. for example, who was kind and worked closely with Bayard Rustin, but still saw homosexuality as physiological malady ( https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/1...g-lgbt-rights/ ), and King was born 10 years later than Graham (though one hopes Brother Martin would have evolved on his views if he was able to live past 1968)

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Old 02-22-2018, 11:51 AM
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Thing is though, he was anti-gay was he not? That is a massive black mark against anyone and I don't think being religious gives him a free pass.
Yes, he was, in a time when that was the norm. That's still a common view among evangelicals. He didn't campaign on it, but he did take a leading (though not foremost) role on racial integration.
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:51 AM
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Westboro criteria for protesting a funeral has 100% to do with media coverage and how prominent the deceased is, and 0% to do with who the person was and what they believed.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
How so?
Here's what Hitchens had to say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1hl2jdfIiA
  #50  
Old 02-22-2018, 01:04 PM
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Spiderman Spiderman is offline
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What makes him worthy of lying in repose in the US Capitol? He was a private, spiritual advisor to a number of presidents. Did he ever have an 'official' govenrnmental title, "Senior Junior Deputy Assistant Advisor to the President" or such?
Seems rather thumbing the nose at Jews, Atheists, & others.
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