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Old 04-12-2018, 08:05 PM
eschereal eschereal is online now
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The Californias: 3, down from 6

This Tim Draper dude is at it again. Now he claims he has enough signatures to get his plan to divide California into 3 separate states onto November's ballot.

His layout divides the state by counties, creating a small, narrow state that stretches from about Monterrey to Los Angeles; an expansive state that includes Orange County, San Diego, up to Mono County and across part of the Central Valley; and a third state that includes Sacramento, San Francisco and the rest of Northern California, as far south as Merced.

His claim is that the current state of California is just too big to be governable. Which, well, I guess you could probably say that about Texas, New York, Florida and maybe several others. I have my doubts about whether this is any kind of an answer to the grumbling.

What makes me feel like this initiative is doomed on its face is how unilateral it is. If I wanted to present an idea like this, I think it would have to involve citizens working to figure out where the lines should be drawn. Because, quite frankly, Draper's map looks plainly stupid to me.

What is the view from the Golden State on this?
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Old 04-12-2018, 08:14 PM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is offline
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CA native here.
There's really only one argument that matters in California, and that is, who gets the water. Dividing the state will not add anything useful to that argument.
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Old 04-12-2018, 08:27 PM
blondebear blondebear is online now
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Another native Californian here.

Ain't gonna happen. Although, when I think about it, spitting into 3 states might be easier than completing the high speed rail project.
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Old 04-12-2018, 08:45 PM
Hilarity N. Suze Hilarity N. Suze is offline
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Who is going to be stuck with Susanville?
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Old 04-12-2018, 08:45 PM
silenus silenus is online now
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CA native here.
There's really only one argument that matters in California, and that is, who gets the water. Dividing the state will not add anything useful to that argument.
I disagree. The only argument that matters is who gets stuck with Bakersfield.
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Old 04-12-2018, 08:56 PM
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I disagree. The only argument that matters is who gets stuck with Bakersfield.
A big, beautiful wall.
  #7  
Old 04-12-2018, 08:57 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is online now
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I disagree. The only argument that matters is who gets stuck with Bakersfield.
Canít we just surround it with a hundred meeter tall containment wall and use it as a toxic waste dump? The current occupants should hardly even notice except for the extra short days in the winter months.

Stranger
  #8  
Old 04-12-2018, 08:59 PM
eschereal eschereal is online now
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The northern state would have Merced, Stockton, Sacramento, Truckee, Los Banos, San Francisco, Redding, Yuba City, Susanville, Petaluma, Eureka, Crescent City, Yreka, Truckee and Weed.

The southern state would have San Diego, Anaheim, Barstow, Tehachapi, Bakersfield, Fresno, Blythe, Mexicali, Palm Springs, Corcoran and Lee Vining.

The third state would have Vandenberg.
  #9  
Old 04-12-2018, 09:04 PM
blondebear blondebear is online now
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I don't think the State of Jefferson folks would like getting lumped in with San Francisco and Sacto.
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:17 PM
eschereal eschereal is online now
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Jefferson was originally supposed to include Jackson, Josephine, Kalamath and Curry counties, later expanding their ambitions to Lake, Coos and Douglas. It would just not be Jefferson without tearing into Oregon as well.
  #11  
Old 04-12-2018, 09:53 PM
E-DUB E-DUB is offline
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Maybe it's time for a general reordering of state lines nationwide. Why do we need two Dakotas?
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Old 04-12-2018, 11:28 PM
Dr. Strangelove Dr. Strangelove is online now
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You can get 10% of the state to sign a petition banning dihydrogen monoxide. This version is just as dumb as the 12 previous versions, and is still not gonna happen.
  #13  
Old 04-13-2018, 04:48 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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You can have Monterey County when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:12 AM
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I have seen "State of Jefferson" signs in rural areas of many CA counties, beyond the initial ones. Those people are dreaming.

Splitting CA is just one of a long and distinguished line of bad ideas that went (and will go) no where. Pure mental masturbation.
  #15  
Old 04-13-2018, 08:21 AM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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California really should just disallow ballot initiatives that require federal approval. Such a waste of time.
  #16  
Old 04-13-2018, 08:57 AM
SpoilerVirgin SpoilerVirgin is online now
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California really should just disallow ballot initiatives. (You can stop that sentence right there.)
  #17  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:21 AM
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You would have to split it into an even number of sub-states and make sure that it didn't affect the national electoral opportunities significantly - and yet, also look to each party like there was an opportunity for their team to grow in national influence - in order for the Federal government to accept the split.

With an odd number, one party gains in Congress.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 04-13-2018 at 09:21 AM.
  #18  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:22 AM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is offline
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Originally Posted by silenus View Post
I disagree. The only argument that matters is who gets stuck with Bakersfield.
I think B'field should start its own state. Hell doesn't even have holes like that.
  #19  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:24 AM
silenus silenus is online now
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Originally Posted by E-DUB View Post
Maybe it's time for a general reordering of state lines nationwide. Why do we need two Dakotas?
Or two Carolinas?

Or any Mississippis!
  #20  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:27 AM
Railer13 Railer13 is offline
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Originally Posted by E-DUB View Post
Maybe it's time for a general reordering of state lines nationwide. Why do we need two Dakotas?
Great point. We probably don't need two Carolinas either. Or two Virginias. And one state comprised of all of New England would probably be sufficient.
  #21  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:43 AM
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I don't think the State of Jefferson folks would like getting lumped in with San Francisco and Sacto.
I always thought Jefferson was the wrong name.

Baja Oregon has a nice ring to it
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  #22  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:45 AM
eschereal eschereal is online now
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California really should just disallow ballot initiatives. (You can stop that sentence right there.)
The initiative process is pretty fucked up. In my state, we have a guy who keeps getting them on the ballot and when they pass, the court invalidates them because an initiative is supposed to do one thing but he tries to put in the draw on top of a second thing.

I could see some sort of two-stage thing that would involve a panel of citizens from the jury pool to review initiatives after the first vote and make the measure workable for the second vote, which would be Yes / Fair, but needs work / No, because we already have a bicameral legislature, so why should initiatives be just one vote?

Luckily, our state constitution does not allow initiatives to amend the state constitution. That would be messed up.
  #23  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:24 AM
dtilque dtilque is offline
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Maybe it's time for a general reordering of state lines nationwide. Why do we need two Dakotas?
In case we lose one. You never know when one is going to wander off and join some other country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silenus View Post
Or any Mississippis!
We have Mississippi so Alabama and Arkansas have someone to look down on.
  #24  
Old 04-13-2018, 05:27 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Maybe it's time for a general reordering of state lines nationwide. Why do we need two Dakotas?
As Bill Maher recently said (paraphrasing): There are more people in LA who are named Dakota than there are living in both of the Dakota states!

Last edited by John Mace; 04-13-2018 at 05:27 PM.
  #25  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:33 PM
Sunny Daze Sunny Daze is online now
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I disagree. The only argument that matters is who gets stuck with Bakersfield.
Barstow. Barstow is the one I wonder about.
  #26  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:48 PM
E-DUB E-DUB is offline
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"We were somewhere near Barstow..............."
  #27  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:48 PM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is offline
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As a Southern Californian I would like to say that anyone living north of Disneyland is a Northern Californian. The split should definitely be there, at the Matterhorn.
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  #28  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:01 PM
Johnny Ace Johnny Ace is offline
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Santa Barbara or thereabouts should be the dividing line.

Regardless, this comes up at least once per decade, and it's always either voted down or it never makes it to the ballot in the first place. Not happenin'.
  #29  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:10 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is online now
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"We were somewhere near Barstow..............."
I saved a man in Barstow just to watch him suffer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ace View Post
Santa Barbara or thereabouts should be the dividing line.
Santa Barbara is just Orange County North Annex. The division between Northern and Southern California staets at Ragged Point and runs WNW through Fresno, which both NoCal and SoCal hate with equal feavor.

Stranger

Last edited by Stranger On A Train; 04-13-2018 at 07:10 PM.
  #30  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:21 PM
eschereal eschereal is online now
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Nobody mentions Lodi. I mean, there are sadder shitholes in California – I guess. I have not been to one, though.
  #31  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:26 PM
hajario hajario is offline
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Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
Santa Barbara is just Orange County North Annex. The division between Northern and Southern California staets at Ragged Point and runs WNW through Fresno, which both NoCal and SoCal hate with equal feavor.

Stranger
That is one of the stupidest fucking things Iíve ever read. Have you ever actually been to Santa Barbara?
  #32  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:26 PM
silenus silenus is online now
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"Stuck in Lodi again..."
  #33  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:49 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is online now
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That is one of the stupidest fucking things Iíve ever read. Have you ever actually been to Santa Barbara?
Yes, I have. It is full of people who have retired and moved there from Orange County, bringing their political conservatism and contempt for workers and immigrants with them and pushing out the historical beach community denziens to Goleta or Ventura.

Have you been there?

Stranger
  #34  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:51 PM
hajario hajario is offline
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Yes, I have. It is full of people who have retired and moved there from Orange County, bringing their political conservatism and contempt for workers and immigrants with them and pushing out the historical beach community denziens to Goleta or Ventura.

Have you been there?

Stranger
Iíve lived there for 28 years.
  #35  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:56 PM
Pork Rind Pork Rind is online now
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Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
Yes, I have. It is full of people who have retired and moved there from Orange County, bringing their political conservatism and contempt for workers and immigrants with them and pushing out the historical beach community denziens to Goleta or Ventura.

Have you been there?

Stranger
As a guy who moved from Seattle to Santa Barbara a few years ago and used to travel to Orange County for work, let me counter with this:nuh-uh.
  #36  
Old 04-13-2018, 08:27 PM
Tamerlane Tamerlane is offline
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Santa Barbara is just Orange County North Annex.
30 years ago, perhaps. These days....
  #37  
Old 04-13-2018, 08:32 PM
hajario hajario is offline
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Santa Barbara was the only county outside of the Bay Area to have a majority vote against Prop 8.
  #38  
Old 04-13-2018, 11:14 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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In the short story I'm writing, Stranger's impressions come from visits to his grandparents. They were either part of or pushing out the historic beach denizens -- not sure which way to go on that.
  #39  
Old 04-13-2018, 11:30 PM
Gray Ghost Gray Ghost is offline
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As a guy who moved from Seattle to Santa Barbara a few years ago and used to travel to Orange County for work, let me counter with this:nuh-uh.
I gotta' go with you and hajario, though perhaps less pungently than him. Like Orange County, Santa Barbara/Santa Ynez is rich as fuck, but unlike the OC, they're still lefties. NIMBYism doesn't necessarily mean right-wing leanings. After all, an environmentalist is someone who already has a redwood deck...

Then again, it's been 15-20 years since I've lived in CA. Doubt the conservative leanings have increased though in that time.

No CA split plan is going to work with a giant urban center going with each piece. Maybe, (LOL) Jefferson without Sacramento would fly? Maybe. But three states from one; each with a liberal majority, which would mean four new Dem (or Green) senators? Yeah, not happening.

Be satisfied with President Harris in 2020.
  #40  
Old 04-13-2018, 11:38 PM
Gray Ghost Gray Ghost is offline
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As to probably the most equitable split? I visualize a split into two. The northern boundary is the Mendocino/Sonoma line, going east to Napa, Yolo, Sacramento, coming west to Solano, Contra Costa, Alameda, Santa Clara, and basically following the Diablo/Inner Coast Range south. Give the Valley to the rednecks, and the Coast to the left. It stops at LA County. Orange County, Riverside, and San Bernardino go to the 'necks. Were it not for the naval bases and breweries, I'd say cede SD and Imperial back to Mexico.

But something like that. A wealthy coastal enclave, and then the rest of California with the miserable (comparatively) weather.
  #41  
Old 04-14-2018, 12:52 AM
Johnny Ace Johnny Ace is offline
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Maybe I should've said Oxnard...or Port Hueneme...
  #42  
Old 04-14-2018, 07:12 AM
Oredigger77 Oredigger77 is offline
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Santa Barbara county is conservative but it's still California. I read a couple of years back that the population had shifted to the northern part of the county as Santa Maria was now the largest town Santa Barbara county. The farmers and oil field guys in wine country are pretty conservative.

That being said this is a dumb idea that will never fly. The only way it could work is if Texas was broken up in a way that kept it most red to balance out all the new blue states. The arguments that California is too big to govern is more of a reason the break up the US then it is to break up California maybe instead of breaking up the state they should do one to ceed power to the counties as a federal type system.
  #43  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:39 AM
Johnny L.A. Johnny L.A. is online now
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The only argument that matters is who gets stuck with Bakersfield.
'Bakersfield, Gateway to Fresno!'
  #44  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:45 AM
Johnny L.A. Johnny L.A. is online now
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Maybe I should've said... Port Hueneme...
Few people would know how to pronounce it.

(Incidentally, my wife was born there.)
  #45  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:59 AM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is offline
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'Bakersfield, Gateway to Fresno!'
Fresno, gateway to Yosemite, where the bears are trained to eat all out-of-state visitors. The rattlesnakes bite the rest.
Cal Dept. of Tourism.
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  #46  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:00 AM
Johnny Ace Johnny Ace is offline
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Few people would know how to pronounce it.

(Incidentally, my wife was born there.)
Yeah, I had trouble getting my mind around that too. I'm not sure exactly why, either, since it derives from the Spanish, which should make it way-NAY-may, not wy-NEE-mee.

And my sister once lived there.

Last edited by Johnny Ace; 04-14-2018 at 09:01 AM.
  #47  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:13 AM
Johnny L.A. Johnny L.A. is online now
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Yeah, I had trouble getting my mind around that too. I'm not sure exactly why, either, since it derives from the Spanish, which should make it way-NAY-may, not wy-NEE-mee.
As someone who was 'born in L.A.' (actually Lakewood, but an L.A. suburb so 'born in L.A.' is close enough) and grew up in a Navy family in San Diego before moving to the desert of northern L.A. County, the only pronunciation I've ever heard was 'why-NEE-mee'.

As to the OP, I no longer live in L.A. so it doesn't really matter to me. But a new nation made of California, Oregon and Washington would be interesting.
  #48  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:47 AM
Folacin Folacin is offline
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No CA split plan is going to work with a giant urban center going with each piece. Maybe, (LOL) Jefferson without Sacramento would fly? Maybe. But three states from one; each with a liberal majority, which would mean four new Dem (or Green) senators? Yeah, not happening.
Here's a crazy man's plan on what the Democrat's should do with unified control: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...eme-court.html

And as for 'not happening': given control of Congress - my reading of the Constitution is that if CA wants to split, it just takes Congressional approval (not subject to the veto or the courts - Article IV, section 3:
Quote:
Originally Posted by US Constitution
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
  #49  
Old 04-14-2018, 10:27 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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In the 2012 presidential election:

Orange County: Romney took it 52% to 46% over Obama
Santa Barbara County: Obama took it 58% to 40% over Romney

CA as a whole: Obama took it 60% to 37% over Romney

Santa Barbara County looks pretty average for CA, even if it's not SF or LA:

SF County: Obama took it 84% to 13% over Romney
LA County: Obama took it 70% to 28% over Romney

Not using 2016 since who the hell knows what kind of an election that was!

Last edited by John Mace; 04-14-2018 at 10:30 AM.
  #50  
Old 04-14-2018, 10:46 AM
hajario hajario is offline
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And thatís SB County which includes Santa Maria and Santa Ynez which, as mentioned earlier, skew fairly conservative. The actual city of SB is much more liberal.
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