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Old 04-20-2018, 01:27 PM
Mister Mills Mister Mills is offline
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At The Demonstartion Against The NRA.

I was on 5th Ave N, and the demonstrators from Saint Petersburg High School happened by. They were chanting, "Hey, hey, ho, ho--The NRA has got to go!", as they walked down the sidewalk.
So, I started yelling out,"Benefactor Member Baby!" and pumping my fist.

There were cops all over the place and news choppers in the air. We disagreed amiably, but they may have been surprised that there was opposition. Well, there is, and I am part of it.
To lead a hue and cry against the NRA and AR-15's is self-destructive. What is you need one some day? And that is what I have to say on the subject.

[I think it was David Hogg that organized the marches, all over America.]

Last edited by Mister Mills; 04-20-2018 at 01:28 PM.
  #2  
Old 04-20-2018, 01:41 PM
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I was on 5th Ave N, and the demonstrators from Saint Petersburg High School happened by. They were chanting, "Hey, hey, ho, ho--The NRA has got to go!", as they walked down the sidewalk.
So, I started yelling out,"Benefactor Member Baby!" and pumping my fist.

There were cops all over the place and news choppers in the air. We disagreed amiably, but they may have been surprised that there was opposition. Well, there is, and I am part of it.
To lead a hue and cry against the NRA and AR-15's is self-destructive. What is you need one some day? And that is what I have to say on the subject.

[I think it was David Hogg that organized the marches, all over America.]
Before you sign off, may I ask you a question. How many times has it come up that someone needed to use an AR-15?
  #3  
Old 04-20-2018, 01:55 PM
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Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
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What is you need one some day?
For what? To commit suicide? Because statistically that is more far likely than the gun being put to use for protection. (Put another way a gun in your home makes you less safe, not more safe.)

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Almost two-thirds of the people in the U.S. population live in homes without guns, and there is no evidence that the inhabitants of these homes are at greater risk of being robbed, injured or killed by criminals compared with citizens in homes with guns. Instead, the evidence is overwhelming that a gun in the home increases the likelihood not only that a household member will be shot accidentally, but also that someone in the home will die in a suicide or homicide.

SOURCE: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...730-story.html

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 04-20-2018 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:58 PM
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I think he has said all he has to say on the subject.
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:00 PM
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Before you sign off, may I ask you a question. How many times has it come up that someone needed to use an AR-15?
I couldn't open a jar of pickles yesterday. An AR-15 would have come in really handy to shoot the lid off.
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:45 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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For what? To commit suicide? Because statistically that is more far likely than the gun being put to use for protection. (Put another way a gun in your home makes you less safe, not more safe.)
Are you sure about that? "put to use for protection" sounds like a pretty broad category.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-20-2018 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:48 PM
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Are you sure about that? "put to use for protection" sounds like a pretty broad category.
Since the OP has said all he is going to say, maybe you can answer my question: How many times has it come up that someone needed to use an AR-15?
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Old 04-20-2018, 03:08 PM
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I would like to attend a demonstartion. I don't think I've ever started a demon.
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Old 04-20-2018, 03:26 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Since the OP has said all he is going to say, maybe you can answer my question: How many times has it come up that someone needed to use an AR-15?
I doubt there's an available answer to your question. I don't know of a good way to measure "needed to use" (It sounds like the sort of thing that would require peeking into alternate universes and recording the results), but I do know that there are a great many defensive gun uses by citizens every year, and some portion of them involve AR-pattern rifles. I suppose some of those DGUs could have been completed successfully with a different model firearm, and presumably some unsuccessful DGUs might have succeeded if the victim had been armed with an AR-15 instead of whatever other model they did have, but again, without some way of exploring alternate universes, I don't know how we can hope to find a specific answer to "how many times".

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-20-2018 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 04-20-2018, 03:29 PM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is offline
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What's a benefactor member baby, I wonder.
  #11  
Old 04-20-2018, 03:31 PM
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I doubt there's an available answer to your question. I don't know of a good way to measure "needed to use" (It sounds like the sort of thing that would require peeking into alternate universes and recording the results), but I do know that there are a great many defensive gun uses by citizens every year, and some portion of them involve AR-pattern rifles. I suppose some of those DGUs could have been completed successfully with a different model firearm, and presumably some unsuccessful DGUs might have succeeded if the victim had been armed with an AR-15 instead of whatever other model they did have, but again, without some way of exploring alternate universes, I don't know how we can hope to find a specific answer to "how many times".
Can you perhaps come up with five times that an AR-15 was needed by a civilian as opposed to any other weapon?
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Old 04-20-2018, 03:32 PM
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I couldn't open a jar of pickles yesterday. An AR-15 would have come in really handy to shoot the lid off.
This is very silly. The ballistics on the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO are clearly overkill for this application, and the supersonic report of the bullet at ~850 m/s represents an occupational safety hazard. A 149 gr 9mmP in a classic single acgtion Browning Hi-Power or a modern modular striker-fired Sig P320 pistol with a quick-detact silencer is clearly the preferred tool for this choice. Now, I know youíre going to come back and argue for the simplicity of direct impingment, ready availability of surplus 5.56 ammo in high capicity STANAG magazines, and the need for the kind of penetration required to stop a wanton rampaging pickle that slithers its way out of your hand and onto the kitchen floor, but Iíll remind you that shot placement and quick sights on target are really the key aspects in preventing yet another brined cucumber assault, and the ready access to an easily carried compact service pistol trumps the firepower of a carbine. Iíll remind you of the Great Kimchi Massacre of 1997 and how the delay in getting to the unfortunately vaulted FN-FALs resulted in the needless deaths of many a dolsot bibimbap, and if only the defenders had access to duty sidearms instead of just ineffecually spraying sriratcha we might not have lost so many delicious dishes that day to another pointless mass vegicide.

As for the o.p. good on you for challenging those students in expressing their desire to not be shot in yet another school shooting and their condemnation of a firearms industry-lobbying group which has stridently opposed even minimal oversights and uniform national background check standards. Who do these uppity students think they are, expressing thoughts as if they are real people with genuine concerns for their welfare and that of others. And how eloquent of you to punctuate your response with a fist pump, which I believe was the same gesture that Abraham Lincoln used at the end of the Gettysburg Address. Freedom, God, and Guns is What America Is All About, and if that means we have the highest per capita rate of firearm violence and mass shootings of any developed nation in peacetime, thatís just the price you pay.

I had a point when I started this but it has since disappeared like Dana Loeschís ability to follow a linear argument.

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  #13  
Old 04-20-2018, 03:32 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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What's a benefactor member baby, I wonder.
Someone who has given a significant sum of money to the NRA.

https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/superlife.asp

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-20-2018 at 03:33 PM.
  #14  
Old 04-20-2018, 03:35 PM
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Someone who has given a significant sum of money to the NRA.

https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/superlife.asp
So he has time, money and a shitload of emotional investment in the NRA. Chains like those are mighty hard to break.
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Old 04-20-2018, 03:35 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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... the supersonic report of the bullet at ~850 m/s represents an occupational safety hazard. ...
This is why it's critical that we pass the Hearing Protection Act ASAP.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-20-2018 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 04-20-2018, 03:40 PM
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This is why it's critical that we pass the Hearing Protection Act ASAP.
Is that the act that provides free ear plugs and ear mufflers to gun owners?
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Old 04-20-2018, 03:57 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Can you perhaps come up with five times that an AR-15 was needed by a civilian as opposed to any other weapon?
I could certainly come up with five times an AR-15 was used by a civilian, but again, without a way to explore alternate realities where we can know with certainty the outcome had they used some other weapon, I don't know how you could be convinced that the AR-15 was needed, as opposed to any other weapon.

FWIW, I don't consider this a particularly genuine argument either, as I imagine that you'd be no happier if we could wave a magic wand and change everyone's AR-15's into an FS-2000 / SCAR-L / Tavor.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-20-2018 at 03:59 PM.
  #18  
Old 04-20-2018, 03:58 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Is that the act that provides free ear plugs and ear mufflers to gun owners?
Something like that.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:11 PM
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Something like that.
I'm not winking. I think using the name of an act to disguise its actual purpose is despicable. You might as well have named it "The Lollypops And Rainbows Act". Rather than take the chance of explaining the usefulness of suppression devices on guns when it comes to reducing noise(which was done here in another thread quite successfully), it was decided to name it something that sounds nice but tells nothing.
  #20  
Old 04-20-2018, 04:15 PM
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I could certainly come up with five times an AR-15 was used by a civilian, but again, without a way to explore alternate realities where we can know with certainty the outcome had they used some other weapon, I don't know how you could be convinced that the AR-15 was needed, as opposed to any other weapon.

FWIW, I don't consider this a particularly genuine argument either, as I imagine that you'd be no happier if we could wave a magic wand and change everyone's AR-15's into an FS-2000 / SCAR-L / Tavor.
I don't care if you consider it a "genuine argument", because it was part of the argument the OP made and you came to defend. He stated that a person shouldn't protest against AR-15s because you never know when you might need that particular weapon in the future.
Is that true, or false?
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:23 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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I don't care if you consider it a "genuine argument", because it was part of the argument the OP made and you came to defend. He stated that a person shouldn't protest against AR-15s because you never know when you might need that particular weapon in the future.
Is that true, or false?
False. I didn't come here to defend the OP's argument. My first post in this thread (#6) was to question a claim by Whack-a-Mole. That's why I came.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:48 PM
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Someone who has given a significant sum of money to the NRA.

https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/superlife.asp
"...a certificate suitable for framing, a lapel pin, a decal, a patch, and a new membership card so you can proudly display your membership status."

That's it? No holy rifle round pendant blessed by Wayne LaPierre himself? No official NRA prayer cloth to kneel on while supplicating the benevolent Second Amendment to please deliver unto thee a Bad Guy with a Gun? No tapestry of Jesus, Charles Whitman, Adam Lanza and Stephen Paddock gazing down beatifically from heaven? Don't tell me they've gone secular.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:54 PM
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Since the OP has said all he is going to say, maybe you can answer my question: How many times has it come up that someone needed to use an AR-15?
If this guy had used an AR-15, he may not have missed.
  #24  
Old 04-20-2018, 05:36 PM
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I can think of lots of civilian uses for an AR-15, specifically, but most of them will result in you getting shot at by the police.

It would probably make an excellent paperweight, but you could also use a Type 4 70 mm AT for that just as easily.
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Old 04-20-2018, 05:51 PM
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What people like the OP don't realize is that people want to be able to defend themselves. And your opponent not having a gun makes for a heck of a lot better defense than you having one.

Why do you want to take away peoples' means to defend themselves?
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Old 04-20-2018, 05:58 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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... your opponent not having a gun ...
Would that work out about as well as people not having illegal drugs, because we banned them?
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Old 04-20-2018, 06:02 PM
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What people like the OP don't realize is that people want to be able to defend themselves. And your opponent not having a gun makes for a heck of a lot better defense than you having one.

Why do you want to take away peoples' means to defend themselves?
I read the OP as being opposed to gun control.
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Old 04-20-2018, 06:28 PM
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What people like the OP don't realize is that people want to be able to defend themselves. And your opponent not having a gun makes for a heck of a lot better defense than you having one.

Why do you want to take away peoples' means to defend themselves?
The stock response to that would be that there are hundreds of millions of firearms already in the country, you canít prevent all malevolent people from obtaining firearms or other weapons, and so forth, all of which are true. And there is a legitimate rationale that responsible and reasonable people should have reasonable access to purchase firearms for personal use, including self-defense in the case that law enforcement is unable or unwilling to come to their aid, which does occur.

But responsible and reasonable people donít march around with military-style weapons at public rallies, or feel the need to carry a weapon at all times in case a rare violent assault in a public area, or argue that any laws that require a demonstration of minimum competence to purchase a firearm. Responsible and reasonable people donít respond to the tragedy of a mass shooting by blaiming the survivors for speaking out or accusing them of being ďpaid actorsĒ in some kind of bizarre conspiracy. Responsible and reasonable people donít unquestioningly reiterate the talking points formulated for the firearms industry by the same PR groups who helped misinform the public on the dangers of tobacco or the effect of fossil fuel use on climate. Responsible and reasonable people look for practical ways to protect their interests while assuring the safety and concerns of the general public are addressed.

And of the advocates who so ardently insist on a need to be armed to deter crime or tyranny, very few actually seem to have any experience or knowledge of just how difficult it is to respond to a determined armed aggressor even if they are armed and expecting it. The stress of a live shooting scenario is nothing like plinking at cans or punching paper targets at the range or even like the induced stress of a shoothouse simulation. The odds that a teacher or other adult in a school is going to be able to stop a determined shooter (and not injure other bystanders, either by accident or misidentification) before he or she can injure or kill multiple people is very low , hence the need to take at least some moderate steps to try to prevent people like Nikolas Cruz with a history of anti-social behavior from having ready access to firearms (AR-15 or otherwise), even if such measures can never be 100% reliable.

Responsible and reasonable gun owners should be willing to support effective messures to keep firearms out of the hands of potentially unstable people for the sake of their own interest as well as concern for the safety of the general public. The NRA is not a representitive of responsible and reasonable gun owners; it has long since become an paid mouthpiece for the firearms industry, but beyond that it as also positioned itself as the ideological defender of conservative values and holds powerful sway over a block of voters and legislators by intimidation and scaremongering about largely ficticious or massively exaggerated efforts at gun prohibition.

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Old 04-20-2018, 06:47 PM
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Responsible and reasonable gun owners should be willing to support effective messures to keep firearms out of the hands of potentially unstable people for the sake of their own interest as well as concern for the safety of the general public. The NRA is not a representitive of responsible and reasonable gun owners; it has long since become an paid mouthpiece for the firearms industry, but beyond that it as also positioned itself as the ideological defender of conservative values and holds powerful sway over a block of voters and legislators by intimidation and scaremongering about largely ficticious or massively exaggerated efforts at gun prohibition.
Reasonable? Sure!

What exactly are those effective measures that are reasonable?
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Old 04-20-2018, 06:48 PM
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"If we could see ourselves as others see us, we would vanish on the spot."

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To lead a hue and cry against the NRA and AR-15's is self-destructive. What is you need one some day? And that is what I have to say on the subject.
The odd phrasing I bolded caught my eye. (And no, I'm not talking about the typo.)

I don't think many Americans walk down streets with an AR-15 slung over their shoulder to deter muggers, so perhaps he's talking about a home invasion. Is that when I'll need to buy one? (Access Amazon or Guns'R'Us from my smart-phone while hiding in the closet and select the fast delivery option?)

Or, by "some day" perhaps he means "the day I come to my senses and realize that liberals and terrorists are everywhere and I may soon need to defend myself" ó is that it? Or, will I need the AR-15 when I want to renew my wedding vows? Or, like Fabian Rodriguez, perhaps I'll come into a little money and have nothing better to spend it on, even though I don't need an AR-15.

Someone suggested the AR-15 is to help open pickle jars. I think he was kidding, but so much of the non-parodic gun rhetoric is nonsensical I'm not completely sure.

I am out-of-touch with U.S.A., which I've not visited this century. When I lived in California I didn't know a single person who talked about guns. But now I hear about "Benefactor Member Baby!" America seems absurdly focused on Guns! Guns! Guns!

MAGA MAGA! Go go go!

O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us. To see oursels as ithers see us! It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion: What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us, An' ev'n devotion!
  #31  
Old 04-20-2018, 06:49 PM
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Reasonable? Sure!

What exactly are those effective measures that are reasonable?
In five words or less, please.
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Old 04-20-2018, 06:53 PM
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@Stranger

It shouldn't come as any great surprise that many of your political opponents regard themselves as the "responsible and reasonable people" and feel much like you do about their opponents.
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:01 PM
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Would that work out about as well as people not having illegal drugs, because we banned them?
We banned rape, but rape still happens. That doesn't mean rape laws do nothing.
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:04 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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We banned rape, but rape still happens. That doesn't mean rape laws do nothing.
It means that one can't be confident of "your opponent not having a gun" if we'd just ban guns.
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:06 PM
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It means that one can't be confident of "your opponent not having a gun" if we'd just ban guns.
It means I can be a lot surer of it than I am now.
  #36  
Old 04-20-2018, 07:10 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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It means I can be a lot surer of it than I am now.
Can you see how "100% assurance you'll be disarmed, and something-less-than-100% assurance your opponent will be disarmed" is an unattractive exchange for gun owners?
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:14 PM
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Can you see how "100% assurance you'll be disarmed, and something-less-than-100% assurance your opponent will be disarmed" is an unattractive exchange for gun owners?
Depends. Are you expecting to be in a situation where you specifically need an AR-15 with a bump stock, extended magazine, and suppressor to defend yourself?

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Old 04-20-2018, 07:17 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Depends. Are you expecting to be in a situation where you specifically need an AR-15 to defend yourself?
No, I suspect I could use an FN SCAR or an IWI Tavor to roughly equal effect in almost every situation I ever expect to be in.
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:23 PM
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No, I suspect I could use an FN SCAR or an IWI Tavor to roughly equal effect in almost every situation I ever expect to be in.
Or, say, a revolver that holds six shots and can't be used to rapidly commit mass murder?
  #40  
Old 04-20-2018, 07:26 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Or, say, a revolver that holds six shots and can't be used to rapidly commit mass murder?
I have a fairly easy time envisioning various situations where an AR-15 provides significantly more utility than a 6-shot revolver. I can't say I "expect" to be in one of those situations (I certainly take steps to avoid it) but I recognize it's a possibility.
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:40 PM
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I was on 5th Ave N, and the demonstrators from Saint Petersburg High School happened by. They were chanting, "Hey, hey, ho, ho--The NRA has got to go!", as they walked down the sidewalk.
So, I started yelling out,"Benefactor Member Baby!" and pumping my fist.

There were cops all over the place and news choppers in the air. We disagreed amiably, but they may have been surprised that there was opposition. Well, there is, and I am part of it.
To lead a hue and cry against the NRA and AR-15's is self-destructive. What is you need one some day? And that is what I have to say on the subject.

[I think it was David Hogg that organized the marches, all over America.]
What you saw as surprise was probably confusion, since all they saw was a guy fist-pumping and yelling about dismembering babies or something. Like, "Is this guy on our side or what?"
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:43 PM
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Can you see how "100% assurance you'll be disarmed, and something-less-than-100% assurance your opponent will be disarmed" is an unattractive exchange for gun owners?
Even today you can't be sure that your opponent won't be better armed than you, be wearing some sort of armor, and won't ambush you.
Or be firing from a place where you can't get him. Even if a country music fan in Vegas had an AR-15 in the concert crowd, it wouldn't have done much good. If no one had one, a lot of lives would have been saved.
  #43  
Old 04-20-2018, 07:43 PM
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If one finds themselves desiring to kill multiple children in a large municipal building, few weapons would be more useful than the AR-15, or similar short-barrelled semi-auto rifle-caliber weapons with large magazines. The perfect combination of accuracy and ease-of-aiming, rapid fire (one shot per trigger pull), maneuverability, high-power for deadly wounds, and long times between the vulnerability of reloading. Truly the weapon of choice for the discerning mass shooter.
  #44  
Old 04-20-2018, 07:44 PM
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Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
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My first post in this thread (#6) was to question a claim by Whack-a-Mole. That's why I came.
I cited an article discussing studies that backup my claim.

Waiting for you to provide studies that show people without guns are at greater risk of harm than those with guns.
  #45  
Old 04-20-2018, 07:52 PM
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Or, say, a revolver that holds six shots and can't be used to rapidly commit mass murder?
What do you imagine the rate of fire is for a revolver with a speed loader?

I agree it's slower than an AR-15 with a bump stock, but I don't agree it makes rapid commission of mass murder impossible.

Of course, a pressure cooker loaded with shrapnel is even MORE effective at that.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:12 PM
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Reasonable? Sure!

What exactly are those effective measures that are reasonable?
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In five words or less, please.
Do what Canada does.
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  #47  
Old 04-20-2018, 08:26 PM
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What do you imagine the rate of fire is for a revolver with a speed loader?

I agree it's slower than an AR-15 with a bump stock, but I don't agree it makes rapid commission of mass murder impossible.
I'm fairly sure Stephen Paddock couldn't have shot 600 people with a revolver.
  #48  
Old 04-20-2018, 08:38 PM
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What do you imagine the rate of fire is for a revolver with a speed loader?

I agree it's slower than an AR-15 with a bump stock, but I don't agree it makes rapid commission of mass murder impossible.

Of course, a pressure cooker loaded with shrapnel is even MORE effective at that.
I do not shoot guns but I'd be willing to bet you need to practice a fair bit to be fast with a speedloader not to mention be accurate when firing a revolver as quickly as possible.

I'd think someone with a lot less practice can manage more carnage with an AR-15 and a bump stock than that same unpracticed person could manage with a revolver and a speed loader. Also I think it'd get tiring pretty quickly operating a revolver like that (trigger finger would get tired and slow down over time). Something that is not a concern with the AR-15 + bump stock.

But as said I am no expert in shooting either one so will defer to those who have.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:54 PM
Lance Turbo Lance Turbo is offline
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Originally Posted by Bricker View Post
What do you imagine the rate of fire is for a revolver with a speed loader?

I agree it's slower than an AR-15 with a bump stock, but I don't agree it makes rapid commission of mass murder impossible.

Of course, a pressure cooker loaded with shrapnel is even MORE effective at that.
Are you under the impression that more people have been killed with pressure cooker bombs than AR-15s? Or that the kill rate in pressure cooker bomb incidents is higher than in AR-15 incidents? What exactly are you getting at here with the pressure cooker business?
  #50  
Old 04-20-2018, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
I do not shoot guns but I'd be willing to bet you need to practice a fair bit to be fast with a speedloader not to mention be accurate when firing a revolver as quickly as possible.

I'd think someone with a lot less practice can manage more carnage with an AR-15 and a bump stock than that same unpracticed person could manage with a revolver and a speed loader. Also I think it'd get tiring pretty quickly operating a revolver like that (trigger finger would get tired and slow down over time). Something that is not a concern with the AR-15 + bump stock.

But as said I am no expert in shooting either one so will defer to those who have.
You are comparing apples to oranges though. If you want to compare a revolver you need to compare it to a semi-automatic hand gun. If you want to compare something with the AR-15, you compare it to something like this. I'm fairly confident that someone who has the rudiments of experience with rifles could use this weapon to do nearly as much damage as the Vegas shooter in the 10 minute time window, assuming they had money to buy a bunch of clips (or bought extended mags for it).

You are basically correct about the speedloader wrt a revolver verse a semi-automatic handgun with the caveat that firing a semi-automatic handgun rapidly can tend to jam, especially in the hands of someone with only rudimentary experience while a revolver is pretty idiot proof. You can use a speedloader if you can push a lever, turn your hand to the side and put a round peg in a round hole and twist, but you can reload a semi-auto much faster and of course you get more rounds in a clip than a revolver cylinder.
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