#1  
Old 04-23-2018, 03:31 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Vehicle attack in Toronto

Quote:
Toronto cops nabbed the suspected driver who plowed into a group of people on a crowded city street Monday afternoon, leaving several injured and the grim sight of what appeared to be bodies covered by sheets.
source

No official word yet on casualties, but the witness descriptions seem to indicate at least several fatalities.

ETA: I don't want to run afoul of prohibition against political jabs in a breaking news thread, but I find it ... interesting ... that the subject may have had a gun (“I have a gun in my pocket,” the suspect can be heard saying) but apparently used the van to carry out his attack.

ETA2: Drudge Report says 9 dead

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-23-2018 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:03 PM
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Yonge St is shut down between Sheppard and Finch. They do not yet know whether it was an accident or a deliberate act, but the driver of the van is in police custody.

(I have a job fair tomorrow in one of the buildings overlooking this...
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:10 PM
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Reporting now, 9 dead and it is being regarded as a deliberate act.
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:33 PM
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The BBC are reporting 9 dead and 16 injured.
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:33 PM
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I've only been in Toronto once, and only for a weekend, but I've been at that intersection catching the subway into the city.
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:43 PM
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It is looking more and more like a deliberate act.
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Last edited by Sunspace; 04-23-2018 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:22 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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After watching this video of the suspect's arrest, I strongly lean towards the theory that the "gun" was fake and the suspect was attempting a suicide by cop.
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
After watching this video of the suspect's arrest, I strongly lean towards the theory that the "gun" was fake and the suspect was attempting a suicide by cop.
I saw that too. The cop did not shoot. Good. Now we have a suspect.
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:26 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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nevermind: might have come across as a political jab.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-23-2018 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:28 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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CBS News says the suspect is 25-year-old Alek Minassian
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:39 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Here is another video, from a different angle showing the arrest.
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
After watching this video of the suspect's arrest, I strongly lean towards the theory that the "gun" was fake and the suspect was attempting a suicide by cop.
"There's a gun in my pocket!" "I don't care, get down!" Wow.
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:05 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is online now
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
After watching this video of the suspect's arrest, I strongly lean towards the theory that the "gun" was fake and the suspect was attempting a suicide by cop.
I noticed, he repeatedly makes a motion as if to draw, but is just pointing his fingers. Just his luck, he got a cool customer who was not buying it -- when you are cornered like that, shouting "I have a gun!" is pointless: it's a use it or lose it situation and if you've the time to shout the announcement while still pointing only fingers, someone with a high risk tolerance will just call your bluff.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 04-23-2018 at 07:08 PM.
  #14  
Old 04-23-2018, 07:11 PM
FinsToTheLeft FinsToTheLeft is offline
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I went to high school 2 blocks from there, my parents live about 5 blocks away and I had lunch right there on Friday.

I was looking at a Fox News post on Facebook and the trolls are sharpening their pitch forks for Trudeau. This prick could have been born in Canada or immigrated under the Conservatives, but somehow it is all Trudeau's fault. I'm not getting political, just remarking on the commentators.
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:12 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
I noticed, he repeatedly makes a motion as if to draw, but is just pointing his fingers. Just his luck, he got a cool customer who was not buying it -- when you are cornered like that, shouting "I have a gun!" is pointless: it's a use it or lose it situation and if you've the time to shout the announcement while still pointing only fingers, someone with a high risk tolerance will just call your bluff.
Only one small correction, I don't believe it was just his "fingers" he was pointing. He had some dark object in his hand. You can see it pretty clearly in the ground-level video, from about 0:12 onward, and he very clearly drops / tosses something in the skyscraper-angle video at 0:07.

ETA: cop was indeed a VERY cool customer

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-23-2018 at 07:14 PM.
  #16  
Old 04-23-2018, 07:16 PM
FinsToTheLeft FinsToTheLeft is offline
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Originally Posted by Tee View Post
"There's a gun in my pocket!" "I don't care, get down!" Wow.
Toronto cops are still sensitive after a cop was convicted of manslaughter for continuing to shoot Sammy Yatim on a streetcar after he had (legally) been shot and was already dying. That being said, the cop has balls THIS BIG and deserves a commendation.
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:17 PM
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Yes he does.

From Red Sox Nation, @ Blue Jays tomorrow, we're mourning with you.
  #18  
Old 04-23-2018, 07:51 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is online now
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Vehicle attack in Toronto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tee View Post
"There's a gun in my pocket!" "I don't care, get down!" Wow.


From previous threads about the use of deadly force, it appears that Canadian doctrine for police response when presented with a possible weapon situation is stricter than is the case in the US. Not meaning to start a debate or score any political points, just an observation on comparative training.

Last edited by Northern Piper; 04-23-2018 at 07:51 PM.
  #19  
Old 04-23-2018, 07:56 PM
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They are now saying that it was not, repeat not, an organized terror attack:

Deadly van 'attack' not part of organized terror plot, says Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fede...dent-1.4631909
Shared via the CBC News Android App
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  #20  
Old 04-23-2018, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
From previous threads about the use of deadly force, it appears that Canadian doctrine for police response when presented with a possible weapon situation is stricter than is the case in the US. Not meaning to start a debate or score any political points, just an observation on comparative training.
I agree.
  #21  
Old 04-23-2018, 08:14 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Originally Posted by Sunspace View Post
They are now saying that it was not, repeat not, an organized terror attack:

Deadly van 'attack' not part of organized terror plot, says Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fede...dent-1.4631909
Shared via the CBC News Android App
I wonder what the distinction would be between an "organized" terror plot and an unorganized one. "Home-grown" / "lone wolf" vs material support (from an established terrorist organization like ISIS)?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-23-2018 at 08:14 PM.
  #22  
Old 04-23-2018, 08:23 PM
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That is a seriously ballsy bit of policing. Clearly attempted suicide by cop, and the cop just not buying it at all.
  #23  
Old 04-23-2018, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I wonder what the distinction would be between an "organized" terror plot and an unorganized one. "Home-grown" / "lone wolf" vs material support (from an established terrorist organization like ISIS)?
My ex-wife looking for me on the sidewalk.
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:38 PM
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That is a seriously ballsy bit of policing. Clearly attempted suicide by cop, and the cop just not buying it at all.
That is the way all policemen should work.
  #25  
Old 04-23-2018, 08:39 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
From previous threads about the use of deadly force, it appears that Canadian doctrine for police response when presented with a possible weapon situation is stricter than is the case in the US. Not meaning to start a debate or score any political points, just an observation on comparative training.
A large cop only page Iím on also has a large number of Canadian officers. The word going around is not that he was operating under stricter rules, itís that in broad daylight with a clear line of sight he was able to immediately determine it wasnít a gun. That happens every day in the US. Itís happened to me a few times in my career. You usually only hear about it when it goes wrong.
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:56 PM
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A large cop only page Iím on also has a large number of Canadian officers. The word going around is not that he was operating under stricter rules, itís that in broad daylight with a clear line of sight he was able to immediately determine it wasnít a gun. That happens every day in the US. Itís happened to me a few times in my career. You usually only hear about it when it goes wrong.
I understand about shooting a guy until he goes down, and all the cops shooting; you don't stop and decide who will fire. But the guy taking out his wallet who was shot fourteen times? I wonder if that would happen in Canada. What is the Canadian Policeman opinion of that incident?
  #27  
Old 04-23-2018, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Only one small correction, I don't believe it was just his "fingers" he was pointing. He had some dark object in his hand. You can see it pretty clearly in the ground-level video, from about 0:12 onward, and he very clearly drops / tosses something in the skyscraper-angle video at 0:07.
It was a cell phone.

It's weird to think this happened just a few blocks from my house. I had some difficulty getting home from work today, not surprisingly.
  #28  
Old 04-24-2018, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I wonder what the distinction would be between an "organized" terror plot and an unorganized one. "Home-grown" / "lone wolf" vs material support (from an established terrorist organization like ISIS)?
An organized plot is easier to find about, especially if you have the perpetrator alive and in your hands. It is also easier to discard. I imagine that this announcement was made as soon as they were able to ascertain that this guy was not part of an organized cell.

Self-radicalization and ďlone wolfĒ attacks may be harder to confirm. They will want to make sure before saying anything in this respect.

My opinion... The suspectís name is Alek Minassian. Minassian is an Armenian surname (can be found also written as ďMinasyanĒ or ďMinasian ó cf. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minasyan ). A *very* Armenian surname.

It seems exceedingly unlikely to me that this man would have anything to do with Islam. Armenians today still remember the suffering of the Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Turks and are not exactly the kid of people who would convert to any variant of fundamentalist Islam just like that (leaving aside that, usually, if somebody does so they tend to change their name into an Arab name).

I definitely find it very implausible that this guy has anything to do with Al-Qaeda, militant Islam, Daesh or any of their ilk.

He has been living for quite a while in Canada (CBC says that he graduated high school in Toronto in 2011, and the classmate they interviewed said that Minassian always was a bit of a loner). Link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...sian-1.4632435

I think that this will end up being a loser who lashed out at the world. In the US he might have ended up shooting up his workplace. In Canada it was easier for him to just rent a van and start mowing down people.

A pitiful, miserable asshole, in short.
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:28 AM
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I wonder what the distinction would be between an "organized" terror plot and an unorganized one. "Home-grown" / "lone wolf" vs material support (from an established terrorist organization like ISIS)?
Almost sounds like you're slightly disappointed in the direction this story might be going, having started the thread.
  #30  
Old 04-24-2018, 11:02 AM
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The suspect has been charged with 10 counts of murder and 13 counts of attempted murder.

(And the job fair I was going to has, understandably, been cancelled. Disturbing to think that if this had happened a day later, I would have just been arriving at Mel Lastman Square as the attack took place...)
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Last edited by Sunspace; 04-24-2018 at 11:03 AM.
  #31  
Old 04-24-2018, 12:58 PM
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Sunspace, I'm glad you and other TO Dopers, like hogarth, are okay.
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Old 04-24-2018, 02:25 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Almost sounds like you're slightly disappointed in the direction this story might be going, having started the thread.
I think it's unfortunate that 10 innocent people are dead and some number more are in varying states of injury. Beyond that sad fact, I think any feelings about "the direction this story might be going" rather pale in comparison.
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Old 04-24-2018, 02:37 PM
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The suspect has been charged with 10 counts of murder and 13 counts of attempted murder.

(And the job fair I was going to has, understandably, been cancelled. Disturbing to think that if this had happened a day later, I would have just been arriving at Mel Lastman Square as the attack took place...)
Any hint at a motivation? So far I havenít seen anything much.
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Old 04-24-2018, 02:56 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Any hint at a motivation? So far I haven’t seen anything much.
The only thing I've seen was that he posted something on social media praising the sexually-frustrated killing spree Californian from a few years ago: https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/24/us/to...t-what-we-know

Quote:
Shortly before he allegedly killed 10 pedestrians Monday, Alek Minassian may have praised a man who vowed to "destroy" women who rejected him.

"All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger!" reads a Facebook page believed to be Minassian's. The accolade apparently refers to the California killer who carried out a "day of retribution" in 2014.
ETA: "Supreme Gentleman" my ass, what a piece of shit!

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-24-2018 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:58 PM
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Between Humboldt and now TO, it's been a hard month for Canada.
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:32 PM
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From Leadnow.ca - ņ l'Action's Facebook post:
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From the cops who didnít shoot.

To the politicians who didnít fan flames of division for political gain.

And the media who showed restraint, allowing facts to unfold without speculating beyond repair.

And all the people who showed unity not hatred in the face of tragedy.

We stand #TOgether.
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:58 PM
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Ouch. An /r/The_Donald, incel type of loser. Not what the OP was hoping for, eh?
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Old 04-24-2018, 07:23 PM
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Ouch. An /r/The_Donald, incel type of loser. Not what the OP was hoping for, eh?
If you or anyone has a problem with a poster take it to the Pit.
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:57 PM
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I really like Muffin’s post from Leadnow.
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  #40  
Old 04-25-2018, 03:58 AM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper
From previous threads about the use of deadly force, it appears that Canadian doctrine for police response when presented with a possible weapon situation is stricter than is the case in the US. Not meaning to start a debate or score any political points, just an observation on comparative training.
A large cop only page Iím on also has a large number of Canadian officers. The word going around is not that he was operating under stricter rules, itís that in broad daylight with a clear line of sight he was able to immediately determine it wasnít a gun. That happens every day in the US. Itís happened to me a few times in my career. You usually only hear about it when it goes wrong.
Loach, this is the previous discussion comparing use of deadly force that I was thinking of, from three years ago in this thread: should the cop really legally shot the fugitive? [David Sweat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Use of force rule are similar but not exactly the same from state to state. I don't know the exact wording in NY (and more importantly, how they have been interpreted) but here is what the NJ Attorney General's guidelines are on the subject:

Quote:
escape of a fleeing suspect

a. whom the officer has probable cause to believe has
committed an offense in which the suspect caused or attempted to cause death or serious bodily harm; and

b. who will pose an imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm should the escape succeed; and

c. when the use of deadly force presents no substantial risk of injury to innocent persons.
A desperate convicted murderer would fall within the rules. An escaped burglar would not.

That is speaking in general terms. I don't know exactly how it went down in this case.
Out of curiousity, I asked a friend of mine who is a Crown prosecutor if the Canadian use of force rules were similar. His off-the-cuff answer was that he didn't think the use of deadly force in these circumstances would be justified, because the guy was fleeing from the cop, rather than posing a direct threat to him, and there was no evidence that he was armed. I think the fact that the shooting officer id'd him solely from the description would have also counted against the use of deadly force, because of the possibility of a mis-identification in such short circumstances.
  #41  
Old 04-26-2018, 11:15 AM
Cat Whisperer Cat Whisperer is offline
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Halifax cartoonists capture public mood following Toronto, Humboldt tragedies.
  #42  
Old 04-26-2018, 09:48 PM
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Vehicle attack in Toronto

Okay, that one even hit me harder than the one for Humboldt.

Last edited by Northern Piper; 04-26-2018 at 09:49 PM.
  #43  
Old 04-27-2018, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
A large cop only page Iím on also has a large number of Canadian officers. The word going around is not that he was operating under stricter rules, itís that in broad daylight with a clear line of sight he was able to immediately determine it wasnít a gun. That happens every day in the US. Itís happened to me a few times in my career. You usually only hear about it when it goes wrong.
Thanks!
I needed to hear that. I have heard about so many things going wrong, I am beginning to become fearful of both sides. I appreciate the reminder (especially from a LEO), that the usual outcome is a good outcome.
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