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Old 05-14-2018, 09:02 AM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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Vicious Dog in Condo

So my neighbors have a pit mix that is an absolute nuisance. It has attacked my dog twice, one time resulting in 14 stitches. There have been some other minor incidents too. It is so vicious if I see it outside, even with the muzzle, I wait til they are gone. My dog is scared to death at the site of him.

Our HOA board, which I am president of, decided he could keep the dog only if it was muzzled at all times when outside. The owners adhered to this until this Saturday. We are having some work done outside and the dog was not muzzled and bit the foreman's hand. The man ended up with multiple stitches in his hand and could end up with possible nerve damage.

We have acted, but I am curious how others would have proceeded.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:36 AM
Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is online now
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Oh, that dog's gotta go. I am surprised it hasn't been done before, he is obviously a known biter. I hate it because it's really not the dogs fault. Too bad owners cannot be punished more. I am sorry for the workers hand. I just had a bad hand bite. Its not fun.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:43 AM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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Yes, it should have been removed before. I agree it's not the dog's fault. The owners are to blame.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:46 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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Are they required to have homeowners insurance? If so, and if you know the insurance company, I would notify them.

Has the bitten foreman sued yet?

Insurance info

Last edited by kayaker; 05-14-2018 at 09:49 AM. Reason: homeowners, not homeowner's
  #5  
Old 05-14-2018, 09:49 AM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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Are they required to have home owner's insurance? If so, and id you know the insurance company, I would notify them.
Every owner has an individual policy for the interior. And then we have an association policy for the outside building.

The man who was bitten and the president of the company say they don't want to sue, but obviously that could change. Especially since we don't know the extent of the injury.

Thanks for link. Reading now.

Last edited by Living Well Is Best Revenge; 05-14-2018 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:55 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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Our HOA board, which I am president of, decided he could keep the dog only if it was muzzled at all times when outside. The owners adhered to this until this Saturday. We are having some work done outside and the dog was not muzzled and bit the foreman's hand. The man ended up with multiple stitches in his hand and could end up with possible nerve damage..
Fi the dog attacked a human the police should be called, full stop.
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  #7  
Old 05-14-2018, 10:06 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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The man who was bitten and the president of the company say they don't want to sue, but obviously that could change. Especially since we don't know the extent of the injury.
If I were the bitten guy, my first move (after filing a police report) would be notifying my disability insurance provider. I would provide them with all the details along with my plan to not work until I was fully recovered.

I'd let them go after the dog's owner, and I'm sure they would.
  #8  
Old 05-14-2018, 10:46 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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Originally Posted by Beckdawrek
I hate it because it's really not the dogs fault.
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Originally Posted by Living Well Is Best Revenge
I agree it's not the dog's fault.
I find this as hard to believe as the concept that all human sociopaths are the fault of their parents.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 05-14-2018 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:50 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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I find this as hard to believe as the concept that all human sociopaths are the fault of their parents.
A parent could not keep their child locked up 24/7, nor have their child killed if deemed too dangerous. A pet owner doesn't have the same constraints.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:18 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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So my neighbors have a pit mix that is an absolute nuisance. It has attacked my dog twice, one time resulting in 14 stitches.
When this happens, don't you call the dog catcher or whatever? A dog can attack another dog to the point of needing 14 stitches with no repercussions?
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:27 AM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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When this happens, don't you call the dog catcher or whatever? A dog can attack another dog to the point of needing 14 stitches with no repercussions?
Well there were repercussions. Me and the other board members allowed him to keep the dog provided it was muzzled anytime outside. In retrospect, that was not harsh enough.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:31 AM
Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is online now
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I find this as hard to believe as the concept that all human sociopaths are the fault of their parents.
Do you think dogs or other animals can be sociopathic? I am not so sure.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:31 AM
FairyChatMom FairyChatMom is offline
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I agree it's not the dog's fault. The owners are to blame.
I have personal knowledge of a bad dog. The owners hoped to show him and use him for stud, but he was uncontrollable. They did not abuse the dog and they tried everything suggested to train him. When the dog attacked the husband, they knew they had to have the dog put down.

Their next dog, same breed, was a big old goof who, unfortunately, they were unable to show because one of his ears didn't meet breed standards. Instead, he was a beloved family pet, and they pretty much gave up on the idea of having a show dog.

Granted my anecdote isn't any kind of scientific proof, but sometimes it is the dog, not the owners.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:51 AM
Tamerlane Tamerlane is offline
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Do you think dogs or other animals can be sociopathic? I am not so sure.
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but sometimes it is the dog, not the owners.
We can get into a semantic tangle here, but IMHO dogs functionally have no independent agency. It is NOT always the owner's fault, however it is our collective fault as humans for breeding for certain traits. The result can unexpected negatives like overly aggressive or shy-sharp animals that will bite no matter what the owner tries to do.

So while owners must always accept ultimate responsibility, it isn't always directly their fault. The way I look at things it also can't be the dogs fault - they simply can't reason( enough ). Sometimes it is nobody's fault. Which doesn't mean there aren't consequences - antisocial dogs cannot be tolerated unless carefully controlled( if then ).

Last edited by Tamerlane; 05-14-2018 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:54 AM
Spiderman Spiderman is offline
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Why should this be a HOA matter? If the first attack(s) were reported to the police, then there would be no choice in the matter based upon your town/state laws. The dog may have to be put down now if a known dangerous dog continues to attack.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:55 AM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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Why should this be a HOA matter? If the first attack(s) were reported to the police, then there would be no choice in the matter based upon your town/state laws. The dog may have to be put down now if a known dangerous dog continues to attack.
No attack previously was reported to police. The HOA handled it, badly perhaps.
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Old 05-14-2018, 12:29 PM
Doctor Jackson Doctor Jackson is offline
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Originally Posted by Living Well Is Best Revenge View Post
So my neighbors have a pit mix that is an absolute nuisance. It has attacked my dog twice...

We have acted, but I am curious how others would have proceeded.
I would have:
A) Called the authorities after each bite incident, as an HOA I would have mandated obedience training after incident 1
B) Imposed the HOA "must be muzzled" rule after the 2nd incident - if not the first, depending on severity and the circumstances around the "other minor incidents" and compliance with the training requirement
C) Insisted that the dog be put down after incident #3

Last edited by Doctor Jackson; 05-14-2018 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 05-14-2018, 12:37 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jackson View Post
I would have:
A) Called the authorities after each bite incident, as an HOA I would have mandated obedience training after incident 1
B) Imposed the HOA "must be muzzled" rule after the 2nd incident - if not the first, depending on severity and the circumstances around the "other minor incidents" and compliance with the training requirement
C) Insisted that the dog be put down after incident #3
Thank you, very helpful.
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Old 05-14-2018, 12:45 PM
Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is online now
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Shoulda, coulda, woulda. The damage is done. Dog has got to go. If that dog mauls a kid someone is gonna sue the HOA. It's a ticking time bomb.
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:01 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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Shoulda, coulda, woulda. The damage is done. Dog has got to go. If that dog mauls a kid someone is gonna sue the HOA. It's a ticking time bomb.
Totally agree. And we are taking steps now.
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:05 PM
Spiderman Spiderman is offline
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No attack previously was reported to police. The HOA handled it, badly perhaps.
This was a mistake on your part (as an individual, not in your capacity as HOA official).
  #22  
Old 05-14-2018, 01:16 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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This was a mistake on your part (as an individual, not in your capacity as HOA official).
Trust me I am aware of that. It was a mistake as the victim and as HOA official.

Last edited by Living Well Is Best Revenge; 05-14-2018 at 01:17 PM.
  #23  
Old 05-14-2018, 01:18 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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Too bad owners cannot be punished more.
Oh, they most certainly can be!

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Fi the dog attacked a human the police should be called, full stop.
Yep. Second call to a Lawyer. Sue the living fuck out of them. Dog bite? Slam Dunk!
  #24  
Old 05-14-2018, 01:26 PM
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is online now
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The way I look at things it also can't be the dogs fault - they simply can't reason( enough ).
I know this is a hijack, but the comments about "it's really not the dogs fault" jumped out at me too. My reaction was "Oh yeah? If this isn't the dog's fault, under what circumstances would it be the dog's fault?"

IMHO, it is not necessary to consider the dog a moral agent in order to say "It was the dog's fault." If I leave a bunch of metal in my microwave oven, and it sparks and starts a fire, that's my fault. But if I'm using a microwave oven entirely correctly and it sparks and starts a fire, that's the microwave oven's fault. Even though the microwave oven is not a rational being.
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:27 PM
watchwolf49 watchwolf49 is offline
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Here's some information from a lawyer's website ... "Tennessee Dog Law" ...

Alas ... "Tennessee does not have a Dangerous Dog Statute." ...
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:29 PM
beowulff beowulff is offline
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Out here, dog bites are supposed to be reported to Animal Control. the dog will be impounded until it is proven to be rabies-free.
  #27  
Old 05-14-2018, 01:37 PM
WordMan WordMan is offline
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Here's some information from a lawyer's website ... "Tennessee Dog Law" ...

Alas ... "Tennessee does not have a Dangerous Dog Statute." ...
Username/post combo for the win!!

A friend just had their husky-mix's jaw broken by a loose pitbull. Would've died if she hadn't put herself in harm's way to pull the attacking dog off of her dog.

Unfortunately, you simply can't fuck around with a dog that demonstrates the intent to attack other pets and humans.
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:18 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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Well here's an update. The victim will not call the police and without that, there is nothing police or animal will/can do.

I will talk to him to learn his reasons why. As an HOA we can ban the dog from the premises, but we have no way of enforcing it.
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:30 PM
Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is online now
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Your own dog was a victim. You call the LEO. And Animal control. Then spill the beans about the person who was bitten, he will be forced to give a true statement. I know it's sneaky, you have to get that dog gone. If you ban him from the premises they will give him away. What's to stop the dog from killing or mauling more dogs or, god forbid, killing a child in his new home? I wouldn't be able to sleep with that burden. I wouldn't sit on this. IMO it's your responsibility.
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:38 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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Your own dog was a victim. You call the LEO. And Animal control. Then spill the beans about the person who was bitten, he will be forced to give a true statement. I know it's sneaky, you have to get that dog gone. If you ban him from the premises they will give him away. What's to stop the dog from killing or mauling more dogs or, god forbid, killing a child in his new home? I wouldn't be able to sleep with that burden. I wouldn't sit on this. IMO it's your responsibility.
It's too late for me to report it. We are basically starting from scratch now. I am talking to the victim in a while and hopefully, I can change his mind.

Believe me, I am fully aware of the seriousness of this. I've learned some tough lessons already.
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:14 PM
Hilarity N. Suze Hilarity N. Suze is offline
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I kinda don't understand why the hospital or ER didn't report it when the guy went in to get stitched up. I thought they had to report dog bites, among other things. (Gunshot wounds, suspected abuse.) I guess that goes by state?
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:18 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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I kinda don't understand why the hospital or ER didn't report it when the guy went in to get stitched up. I thought they had to report dog bites, among other things. (Gunshot wounds, suspected abuse.) I guess that goes by state?
I thought the same thing. Apparently, the victim was given a choice and declined.
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:28 PM
SmellMyWort SmellMyWort is offline
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So there's no penalty or fine if the dog is caught out without its muzzle?
  #34  
Old 05-14-2018, 03:33 PM
Sunny Daze Sunny Daze is online now
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I hate it because it's really not the dogs fault. Too bad owners cannot be punished more.
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Originally Posted by Living Well Is Best Revenge View Post
Yes, it should have been removed before. I agree it's not the dog's fault. The owners are to blame.
I find this as hard to believe as the concept that all human sociopaths are the fault of their parents.
Agreed. Some dogs are naturally aggressive. They are born that way and they cannot be trained out of it. The part that is the owners' fault is that they did not provide adequate restraint even though they knew the dog was aggressive.

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Fi the dog attacked a human the police should be called, full stop.
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Living Well Is Best Revenge View Post
It's too late for me to report it. We are basically starting from scratch now. I am talking to the victim in a while and hopefully, I can change his mind.

Believe me, I am fully aware of the seriousness of this. I've learned some tough lessons already.
Have you contacted the police and/or Animal Control to find out what your options are as far as having the animal removed?

If you haven't notified the owners that the dog needs to go, you need to do so. You are opening the HOA up for liability. One of these days, someone will report you and say that you are permitting a known dangerous dog to reside on the property, or they will sure. If he causes serious damage, you are in deep trouble. Your insurance may not cover it because you know about the problem and are not taking appropriate action.
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:44 PM
Sigene Sigene is offline
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Trust me I am aware of that. It was a mistake as the victim and as HOA official.
This statement might be a problem when you get sued for not taking appropriate action in the first place. I'm not a lawyer, but I think its possible you are setting the organization (and maybe yourself personally?) for a lawsuit for not addressing what was clearly a documented problem. For the protection of the HOA and yourself, you probably should act aggressively now; at least to limit your own appearance of culpability.
  #36  
Old 05-14-2018, 04:31 PM
Enginerd Enginerd is offline
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C) Insisted that the dog be put down after incident #3
This seems to me to be outside the purview of the HOA. They could prohibit the dog from entering the building or grounds, but I don't see any way for the HOA to enforce euthanasia.

I also think that this (banning) should have happened after the first incident.
  #37  
Old 05-14-2018, 05:09 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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What's the attitude of the dog owner throughout all this? Does he have an "aw shucks, yeah my dog bites but so what" view?
  #38  
Old 05-14-2018, 05:31 PM
Dag Otto Dag Otto is offline
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It's too late for me to report it. We are basically starting from scratch now. I am talking to the victim in a while and hopefully, I can change his mind.

Believe me, I am fully aware of the seriousness of this. I've learned some tough lessons already.
Why do you need the victim to report the incident? You have to do it regardless if the foreman wants to report it or not. If I understand the event correctly, the foreman was working on the HOA's property and hired by the HOA to perform the work. The HOA would seem to have liability here, as well as the dog owner.
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Old 05-14-2018, 05:57 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Dogs aren't going to be viewed as mentally capable of criminal responsibility.

Despite that, dogs can act to kill or injure someone.

Society isn't going to accept perpetratorless violent crimes where there's no legal recourse of any kind.

Dogs customarily have owners in this society.

I think dog owners should be held responsible exactly as if they had done the deed themselves.
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Old 05-14-2018, 07:14 PM
Merneith Merneith is offline
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As an HOA we can ban the dog from the premises, but we have no way of enforcing it.
How would you enforce HOA laws if the guy was found to be breaking some other rule? What if he, say, put a truck up on blocks in the front yard?
  #41  
Old 05-14-2018, 07:30 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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So there's no penalty or fine if the dog is caught out without its muzzle?
I got the letter the lawyer sent and it said that legal action would be taken if they violated the conditions. Another letter will go to them with a deadline to have the dog removed or we will sue them.
  #42  
Old 05-14-2018, 07:32 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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Why do you need the victim to report the incident? You have to do it regardless if the foreman wants to report it or not. If I understand the event correctly, the foreman was working on the HOA's property and hired by the HOA to perform the work. The HOA would seem to have liability here, as well as the dog owner.
The cops and animal control both said the victim had to report it.
  #43  
Old 05-14-2018, 07:33 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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What's the attitude of the dog owner throughout all this? Does he have an "aw shucks, yeah my dog bites but so what" view?
They donít see the seriousness of the problem at all.
  #44  
Old 05-14-2018, 07:35 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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How would you enforce HOA laws if the guy was found to be breaking some other rule? What if he, say, put a truck up on blocks in the front yard?
We would first have the property manager ask them to remove it. IF they refused we would lawyer send a letter.
  #45  
Old 05-14-2018, 07:37 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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This statement might be a problem when you get sued for not taking appropriate action in the first place. I'm not a lawyer, but I think its possible you are setting the organization (and maybe yourself personally?) for a lawsuit for not addressing what was clearly a documented problem. For the protection of the HOA and yourself, you probably should act aggressively now; at least to limit your own appearance of culpability.
I agree and we are acting very aggressively now. The owners of the other units are aware of the situation and are being supportive.

The mystery still is why the victim refused to report it.
  #46  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:53 AM
Doctor Jackson Doctor Jackson is offline
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This seems to me to be outside the purview of the HOA. They could prohibit the dog from entering the building or grounds, but I don't see any way for the HOA to enforce euthanasia.
I didn't mean the HOA should have the dog put down, I meant that the victims should insist authorities have it put down. This hinges on each incident being reported and documented, of course. A dog that bites more than once and an owner that allows it are a potentially deadly combination.

Last edited by Doctor Jackson; 05-15-2018 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 05-15-2018, 09:42 AM
Spiderman Spiderman is offline
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I didn't mean the HOA should have the dog put down, I meant that the victims should insist authorities have it put down. This hinges on each incident being reported and documented, of course. A dog that bites more than once and an owner that allows it are a potentially deadly combination.
Except the first victim (twice) didn't report it to the authorities & the current 'victim' doesn't wish to report it either. The authorities don't know of this animal & therefore won't take any action.


Depending upon the state & the specific HOA rules, you may not be able to enforce removal against a specific dog. "Any dog that has previously bitten ___ # of dogs/people may no longer reside in the community" is generic & should pass muster, but "your dog, Fido, must be evicted" may not.
  #48  
Old 05-15-2018, 09:56 AM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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Except the first victim (twice) didn't report it to the authorities & the current 'victim' doesn't wish to report it either. The authorities don't know of this animal & therefore won't take any action.


Depending upon the state & the specific HOA rules, you may not be able to enforce removal against a specific dog. "Any dog that has previously bitten ___ # of dogs/people may no longer reside in the community" is generic & should pass muster, but "your dog, Fido, must be evicted" may not.
This is exactly the situation. As far as police are concerned there is no problem because of the lack of reporting. It has to come from the victim, per our state laws.

However, our bylaws do have rules about nuisance animals and since the owners did not comply with the rules we set forth after the last attack, we have some options.

Just heard the latest victim might be reconsidering reporting it. Hopefully it's not too late.

Last edited by Living Well Is Best Revenge; 05-15-2018 at 09:57 AM.
  #49  
Old 05-15-2018, 10:45 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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What is the reason why two victims of a dog attack don't want to report them?
  #50  
Old 05-15-2018, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
What is the reason why two victims of a dog attack don't want to report them?
Maybe the dog's owner offered cash for their pain?
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