Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:07 AM
Mops Mops is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,822
Why is Kelly Sadler's statement about John McCain referred to as 'a joke' in the US?

... rather than as 'a callous statement made in earnest'?

I refer, of cause, to White House staffer Kelly Sadler's statement 'It doesn't matter, he's dying anyway' in the context of McCain's opposition to Gina Haspel's nomination for CIA director.

US reports seem to invariably categorize it as 'a joke', which I don't quite understand.
  #2  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:32 AM
senoy senoy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,243
Gallow's humor is still humor. There's a long tradition of it in the US and I assumed in other countries as well. Wasn't it St. Lawrence who while being roasted alive for his faith said something to the effect that, "I'm well-done on this side, why don't you turn me over and eat me?" Then to compound the humor the church made him the patron saint of chefs? This could certainly be a statement that plays on similar types of humor. It might be tasteless, but it's certainly possible it was made with the intent of getting a laugh. Whether it did or not is probably something for the audience to decide.
  #3  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:38 AM
naita naita is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Norway
Posts: 5,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mops View Post
... rather than as 'a callous statement made in earnest'?

I refer, of cause, to White House staffer Kelly Sadler's statement 'It doesn't matter, he's dying anyway' in the context of McCain's opposition to Gina Haspel's nomination for CIA director.

US reports seem to invariably categorize it as 'a joke', which I don't quite understand.
Gina Haspel's nomination will be decided soon, and McCain's death, though not likely to be far in the future, is by no means so certainly imminent that it's inevitability justifies dismissing the impact of McCain's opposition. So people assume that's not what Ms. Sadler was doing.

Now it is of course possible, considering the quality of what President Trump promised, and keeps promising, would be the "best people", she's that dumb, but all things considered it seems more likely to be a morbid quip.
  #4  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:42 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: the extreme center
Posts: 30,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mops View Post
US reports seem to invariably categorize it as 'a joke', which I don't quite understand.
You are incorrect.

Media reports have quoted the Trump camp saying it was a joke, but have not "invariably" or even commonly accepted that explanation.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 05-17-2018 at 11:42 AM.
  #5  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:50 AM
voltaire's Avatar
voltaire voltaire is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 6,089
I don't think anybody means "joke, haha", they mean "joke" as in not intended to be taken seriously.

It's exactly the same thing that happened when Trump said he likes heroes who aren't captured. He wasn't originally being serious, but when challenged on it, Trump didn't apologize, he doubled down on it.

Last edited by voltaire; 05-17-2018 at 11:51 AM.
  #6  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:05 PM
Dinsdale Dinsdale is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 17,370
Similar disjunct over the recent Press Corps dinner. A comedian made jokes about Sara Huckabee-Sanders. The administration expressed outrage. Yet when Trump or his minions say something tasteless or disrespectful, they claim the offended parties need to develop a sense of humor.

I've not followed it closely, but I've not seen the McCain remark described as a joke. Instead, the issue I saw reported was whether an apology was warranted and, if so, what form that apology should take. I thought the general consensus was that the remark was - at the least - in poor taste and disrespectful. Which is pretty much how I view it. Not as big a deal as some folk are trying to make it out to be. Of course, I never thought McCain was the unblemished national hero he is often presented as. His record as a POW is only a fraction of his life's work.
__________________
I used to be disgusted.
Now I try to be amused.
  #7  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:05 PM
senoy senoy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,243
I think a better question is not why people consider it a joke, which I can understand, but rather why does it being a joke make it more acceptable? For instance, if I tell a joke that implies that a random racial group is lazy or stupid, I don't get a pass because it's a joke. We recognize that telling that kind of joke is normalizing thinking of that group as lazy or stupid. We would rightly consider such a 'joke' to be inappropriate and indicative of a racist attitude.

So if this is actually a 'joke', it seems to tell us that Sadler finds it funny to contemplate the death of someone that disagrees with their position. That's not a particularly good thing. Generally we call people who find the deaths of their opponents to be amusing 'fascists' and it's not behaviour we as a society should be dismissing or encouraging.
  #8  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:24 PM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 57,988
I've heard the comment described as "a tasteless remark", which seems adequate and accurate.
__________________
Don't worry about the end of Inception. We have top men working on it right now. Top. Men.
  #9  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:42 PM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 34,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mops View Post
... rather than as 'a callous statement made in earnest'?

I refer, of cause, to White House staffer Kelly Sadler's statement 'It doesn't matter, he's dying anyway' in the context of McCain's opposition to Gina Haspel's nomination for CIA director.

US reports seem to invariably categorize it as 'a joke', which I don't quite understand.
I think you are mistaking what the Trump Administration says to spin the comment with 'US reports', which I assume you mean US media. Basically, whether someone thinks it's a joke or not depends on whether they are a Trump supporter or not...which is usually the case with things like this. One side spins it as a 'joke', the other side pretends (or not) outrage. The mistake is thinking that the US is some sort of monolith or in lockstep on...well, on anything. That is never, ever the case.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #10  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:56 PM
John Mace's Avatar
John Mace John Mace is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 85,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
You are incorrect.

Media reports have quoted the Trump camp saying it was a joke, but have not "invariably" or even commonly accepted that explanation.
That's my experience, too. No one in the media knows whether it was a joke or not. It may have been, or it may not have been.

Last edited by John Mace; 05-17-2018 at 12:56 PM.
  #11  
Old 05-17-2018, 02:02 PM
septimus's Avatar
septimus septimus is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 17,593
The callous statement was not a joke, and no normal human thinks it was. Only a psychopath could intend such a remark as funny.

We live in a time that the U.S. Administration communicates mostly with bald-faced lies. Some Americans believe the lies; many more realize that they are lies, but admire a team so adept at lying — surely it is lies that we need to Make America Great Again.

There are a few Trump supporters who might be bothered by such a lie, or such a callous statement, but it doesn't matter: This despicable remark and the lie to justify it will soon be swept aside and buried underneath more lies and more despicable remarks. The Trump supporter is like Kurtz in the Joseph Conrad novel, reduced in the end to just croaking "Benghazi! Benghazi!"

HTH.
  #12  
Old 05-17-2018, 02:19 PM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 37,051
It's very simple: normal people clearly don't think remarks like this are a joke.

But the Trump Administration insists that it was a joke, so the Republican Party at all levels falls in line and agrees with him.

So now Dems say it wasn't a joke, and Repubs say it was.

So now it's a matter of partisan disagreement, so the media feels it has to report the matter in a way that is non-determinative, to report in a way that gives equal credence to the joke and the non-joke interpretations.

Welcome to our Bizarro World.
  #13  
Old 05-17-2018, 02:45 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 40,103
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
The callous statement was not a joke, and no normal human thinks it was. Only a psychopath could intend such a remark as funny.
I don't like the Trumpists either, but let's get serious for a moment; of course it might have been a joke. Of course even psychopaths can joke and have a sense of humor. Even monsters can joke. In fact, they can be very funny. Don't believe me? Bill Cosby.

A joke being disgusting or tasteless or unfunny does not mean it isn't a joke.

Taken just by the words, the comment may or may not have been intended as a joke; we do not know the exact context or tone of voice, without which it is impossible to say.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #14  
Old 05-17-2018, 02:56 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 44,213
Typically when some politician is caught making a racist or sexist comment, they say it was only a joke - and then they apologize to anyone who might have been offended. The controversy here is that the Trumpists are such big slime balls that they can't even do that.
Not that the comment was a real joke, more snark.
  #15  
Old 05-17-2018, 03:12 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Manor Farm
Posts: 18,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
That's my experience, too. No one in the media knows whether it was a joke or not. It may have been, or it may not have been.
And yet, an offhand if crassly ll-conceived comment recieved headline news treatment for the better part of a day. Meanwhile, Scott Pruitt is facing an even dozen investigations for finance and ethics violations, Trump’s vaunted ‘negotiation’ with North Korea is (predictably) collapsing like a punctured hot air balloon, and the decision to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem has resulted in the worst violence in the Gaza Strip in over a decade. It’s pretty easy to get outraged at Trump and his clown car of dime store collectible horror figurines from Steve Mnuchin to Betsy DeVos but news organizations need to focus on what is really important rather than running around like a bunch of gossiping middle school children about who said what about whom on a daily basis lest the substance of Trump’s manifest unsuitability and corrption be lost in the froth of general outrage.

Stranger
  #16  
Old 05-17-2018, 03:16 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 40,103
Trump just nakedly, openly accepted a massive bribe from China to favor a Chinese company in trade rules. I mean, he's openly breaking the law and committing high crimes, and the Republicans don't care.

Trump is finishing his term, and the GOP is going to the mattresses to get him re-elected. If you're hoping for his removal from office, it's not happening.

This is a tiny issue, albeit a symptom of a terrible disease.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!

Last edited by RickJay; 05-17-2018 at 03:16 PM.
  #17  
Old 05-17-2018, 03:54 PM
John Mace's Avatar
John Mace John Mace is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 85,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
It's very simple: normal people clearly don't think remarks like this are a joke.
Are none of these people normal (and that was just last week; there are plenty more where that came from)? You seriously think no normal person has ever made a tasteless joke about someone dying? Really?

What is "simple" is that none of us was in the room and none of us knows whether it was a joke or not. And frankly, I don't think it matters. It was a completely unprofessional thing to say, joke or no joke.

Last edited by John Mace; 05-17-2018 at 03:56 PM.
  #18  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:14 PM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 34,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Are none of these people normal (and that was just last week; there are plenty more where that came from)? You seriously think no normal person has ever made a tasteless joke about someone dying? Really?

What is "simple" is that none of us was in the room and none of us knows whether it was a joke or not. And frankly, I don't think it matters. It was a completely unprofessional thing to say, joke or no joke.
Pretty much. It's ironic, to me, that many people who dislike McCain and badmouthed him when he was running are now full of righteous anger and angst over this 'joke', while a lot of folks who voted for him or supported him in the past are just handwaving this away. It's also why we get so much RO over various things that some think are funny while others are extremely offended by, and how this can switch back and forth depending on who is making the 'joke' and who is the butt of the supposed 'joke'.

I think there is a lot to be really outraged over wrt the Trump administration. Hell, CNN did an article today just over real shit that went down this week (in the last 24 hours actually), and how we've become so immured to the various Trump outrages that many of them just aren't getting much thought, despite the fact that in the past, any one of them would be a major headline and probably political firestorm in and of itself.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!

Last edited by XT; 05-17-2018 at 04:15 PM.
  #19  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:19 PM
John Mace's Avatar
John Mace John Mace is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 85,092
Americans being obsessed with the superficial predates Trump, though. It may be more consequential wrt Trump, but we've been like this for a long, long time.
  #20  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:21 PM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 34,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Americans being obsessed with the superficial predates Trump, though. It may be more consequential wrt Trump, but we've been like this for a long, long time.
Trump seems to exploit that to a degree unknown before him, though. But, yeah, it's nothing really new. I don't think it's particularly American, either.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #21  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:22 PM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 15,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Are none of these people normal (and that was just last week; there are plenty more where that came from)? You seriously think no normal person has ever made a tasteless joke about someone dying? Really?

What is "simple" is that none of us was in the room and none of us knows whether it was a joke or not. And frankly, I don't think it matters. It was a completely unprofessional thing to say, joke or no joke.
Yeah, a classy advisor would have said "Is McCain's resistance a long term problem?"
  #22  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:25 PM
John Mace's Avatar
John Mace John Mace is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 85,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
Trump seems to exploit that to a degree unknown before him, though.
I would characterize him as being a lucky beneficiary of that, but yeah, it helps him more than others because he needs more help than others.

Quote:
But, yeah, it's nothing really new. I don't think it's particularly American, either.
True. What are you thoughts on whether Prince Harry should shave before the wedding? I'm conflicted...
  #23  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:37 PM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 34,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace
True. What are you thoughts on whether Prince Harry should shave before the wedding? I'm conflicted...
Well, that's a really complex question that is difficult to answer in anything short of a wall of text, with diagrams and footnotes. But, after giving it a lot of thought an in an effort to keep things manageable wrt the hamsters, I'd say he definitely shouldn't shave before the wedding. He needs to be seen an non-conformist and edgy, I think...and also looks really good, IMHO, with his well groomed beard.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #24  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:42 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Manor Farm
Posts: 18,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
I think there is a lot to be really outraged over wrt the Trump administration. Hell, CNN did an article today just over real shit that went down this week (in the last 24 hours actually), and how we've become so immured to the various Trump outrages that many of them just aren't getting much thought, despite the fact that in the past, any one of them would be a major headline and probably political firestorm in and of itself.
It’s a little ironic that you highlight this specific article because CNN in general and Chris Cillizza in particular are emblematic of a histrionic and superficial coverage of the outrage du jour instead of in-depth coverage of substantial lapses in judgement and ethics. Cillizza’s opinions read like a 13 year old gossiping on Instagram, notwithstanding his careless use of language and stating opinion as evidence. For actual information and useful analysis you need to go to sources such as Propublica.org or The Washington Post instead of CNN.com’s hysterical and click-bait riddled opinionizing.

Stranger
  #25  
Old 05-17-2018, 07:11 PM
Kropotkin Kropotkin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: North
Posts: 666
Much (most? all?) humour, as any kid on the playground can attest, is an exercise in set theory, who's in and who's out, even if the sets are "the rest of the world" and "the poor schmuck who just fell down the manhole." Thus the joke, Q: "why don't feminists have a sense of humour?" A: "why don't you think jokes about men are funny?" Public figures, and the rest of us, often misjudge the makeup of the group we're addressing and have to scramble to avoid censure.
  #26  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:21 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
I don't think anybody means "joke, haha", they mean "joke" as in not intended to be taken seriously.

It's exactly the same thing that happened when Trump said he likes heroes who aren't captured. He wasn't originally being serious, but when challenged on it, Trump didn't apologize, he doubled down on it.
He was joking? I must have missed something.
  #27  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:34 PM
BigT's Avatar
BigT BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 35,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Are none of these people normal (and that was just last week; there are plenty more where that came from)? You seriously think no normal person has ever made a tasteless joke about someone dying? Really?

What is "simple" is that none of us was in the room and none of us knows whether it was a joke or not. And frankly, I don't think it matters. It was a completely unprofessional thing to say, joke or no joke.
No, those are jokes because they specifically mark themselves as such. They have a setup and a punchline. And they are being told in a context where the person specified that they were joking ahead of time. This is not in any sort of serious context, and it is clear that no one believes the comments in question.

These do not in any way compare to the response made here. It was a statement that does not contain any markers of a joke. And while it appears the entire context has not been leaked, the context suggests that it was a serious discussion. And if she (or anyone else there who wanted to defend her) could, one would think she'd tell everyone that she had established she was joking ahead of time. And the reports definitely indicate that people were not clear that she did not mean what she said.

There are other types of jokes, of course, but I would argue this doesn't fit, either. It could be mockery or satire. But given that this was a person in a real political position, and there was no immediate talk that invalidated the statement, this seems unlikely. It could be sarcasm, but, again, it isn't negated.

There is only one context of "joke" where this makes sense, and that's the "joke" where you use the disguise of humor as an excuse to say something hostile that you really mean. And I am not alone in arguing that such comments are not a joke. Even if you put on some sort of inflection to make it sound funny, it's still clear your intent is to say something horrible, but just add humor as deflection.

I won't say that "no one" think this was a joke. But I will say that I believe the rational opinion on the matter is that this was not one. Along with the above, if a joke is misinterpreted as not a joke, the joke teller usually goes out of their way to make it clear they were just kidding. This isn't proof that they were, of course, but the lack of any such statement until well after the fact suggests that they weren't joking.

The only reason left to think it was a joke is that it's just so obviously offensive and ridiculous that no one would be stupid enough to say it unless they were trying and failing to make a joke. But I don't find that persuasive, especially coming from this White House. (Hell, any normal White House would have fired her on the spot no matter what.)

Considering all of this, I am quite confident in asserting it was not a joke.
  #28  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:53 PM
BigT's Avatar
BigT BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 35,093
And, for fuck's sake, this is not remotely a superficiality. Just because there are other, worse things happening doesn't mean that a bad thing becomes less bad. This woman's comment is the exact type of comment where people respond by punching, because it's entirely worth the consequences to them.

A conservative said something morally abhorrent. You don't get to twist that into a reason why liberals are bad people. And, yes, I did notice how XT implied but didn't come right out and say that these same liberals who are upset have said the same thing before.

I repeat all the time that tu quoque is not a valid argument. Why would anyone think an implied tu quoque is even better? Hiding your logical fallacy only makes it clear that you know that what you are saying wasn't a good argument in the first place.

Stop trying to normalize the Trump administration. Any other administration, this woman would have been immediately fired. People doing worse things does not make the bad things better.

Last edited by BigT; 05-17-2018 at 11:57 PM.
  #29  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:58 AM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,996
In my worst moments, I have said things that were that stupid.

I apologized. I acted (and spoke) differently afterwards.

Just saying.
  #30  
Old 05-18-2018, 01:11 AM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
...(Hell, any normal White House would have fired her on the spot no matter what.)...
It's not just "not normal", it's intentionally and maliciously fucked up. Is it the first ever US administration to be blatantly fucked up on purpose? It's almost looking like a psychology experiment now, trying to see how much bullshit Trump's supporters will swallow. It's looking like "unlimited amounts" is the answer.

I keep thinking "Come on, nobody is THAT stupid". But every time, Trump supporters have answered "Oh yeah? Just watch". And... they are. Or they've decided to act like they are, which amounts to the same thing.
  #31  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:06 AM
LoneRhino LoneRhino is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
The callous statement was not a joke, and no normal human thinks it was. Only a psychopath could intend such a remark as funny.

HTH.
This may shock you but not everybody with a dark sense of humor is a psychopath. In fact it's the type of remark that I and others would make. Of course, I don't work at the white house.
  #32  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:39 AM
Spectre of Pithecanthropus Spectre of Pithecanthropus is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Transplanted!
Posts: 19,111
There may be a slight difference between "joke" and its nearest equivalents in German. The definition of "joke" doesn't exclude comments which may be almost universally reviled as in poor taste, inappropriate for public discourse, or even downright cruel, as in the case of Kelly Sadler's comment. Writers are calling that a joke but it doesn't mean they're saying they approve of it as such.
__________________
Change your latitude, change your attitude.
  #33  
Old 05-18-2018, 08:39 AM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 15,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
No, those are jokes because they specifically mark themselves as such. They have a setup and a punchline. And they are being told in a context where the person specified that they were joking ahead of time. This is not in any sort of serious context, and it is clear that no one believes the comments in question.

These do not in any way compare to the response made here. It was a statement that does not contain any markers of a joke. And while it appears the entire context has not been leaked, the context suggests that it was a serious discussion. And if she (or anyone else there who wanted to defend her) could, one would think she'd tell everyone that she had established she was joking ahead of time. And the reports definitely indicate that people were not clear that she did not mean what she said.

There are other types of jokes, of course, but I would argue this doesn't fit, either. It could be mockery or satire. But given that this was a person in a real political position, and there was no immediate talk that invalidated the statement, this seems unlikely. It could be sarcasm, but, again, it isn't negated.

There is only one context of "joke" where this makes sense, and that's the "joke" where you use the disguise of humor as an excuse to say something hostile that you really mean. And I am not alone in arguing that such comments are not a joke. Even if you put on some sort of inflection to make it sound funny, it's still clear your intent is to say something horrible, but just add humor as deflection.

I won't say that "no one" think this was a joke. But I will say that I believe the rational opinion on the matter is that this was not one. Along with the above, if a joke is misinterpreted as not a joke, the joke teller usually goes out of their way to make it clear they were just kidding. This isn't proof that they were, of course, but the lack of any such statement until well after the fact suggests that they weren't joking.

The only reason left to think it was a joke is that it's just so obviously offensive and ridiculous that no one would be stupid enough to say it unless they were trying and failing to make a joke. But I don't find that persuasive, especially coming from this White House. (Hell, any normal White House would have fired her on the spot no matter what.)

Considering all of this, I am quite confident in asserting it was not a joke.
I feel like I just sat through a Master class at the Laugh Academy.
  #34  
Old 05-18-2018, 09:24 AM
John Mace's Avatar
John Mace John Mace is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 85,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
No, those are jokes because they specifically mark themselves as such.
Yes. The statement I was responding to was: "It's very simple: normal people clearly don't think remarks like this are a joke." It was not "It's very simple: normal people clearly don't think remarks like this are a joke unless they specifically mark them as such."

If you want to defend the original statement, knock yourself out. If you want to defend a different statement, don't pretend like I was responding to that different statement. I wasn't.

Besides, unless you were in the room when the comments was made, you have no idea whether the person who said it "marked" it as a joke or not. Were you in that room when the comment was made?
  #35  
Old 05-18-2018, 10:24 AM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 34,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT
A conservative said something morally abhorrent. You don't get to twist that into a reason why liberals are bad people. And, yes, I did notice how XT implied but didn't come right out and say that these same liberals who are upset have said the same thing before.
Actually, what I said was that I find it ironic that people who badmouthed McCain in the past are all outraged about this, while people who supported him aren't. This has nothing to do with humor and is instead a comment about tribalism, and how things can shift over time, including attitudes, if anything.

That said, I do think that humor often has a political orientation, with people of different political orientations unable to see the humor of the other side. I know a lot of conservatives who really dislike John Oliver or other 'liberal' comedians or comic news shows with a left leaning slant, and a lot liberals don't like the humor of conservatives doing similar things from the other side. I've seen exactly this level of outrage from conservative over something in John Oliver's show, to use one example, in fact, so even though that wasn't the point I was making I appreciate you pointing it out so I could make the connection.

Oh, and ETA: I didn't say that what the OP is talking about is actually a 'joke'. I think that's spin, as I said earlier. Just FTR.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!

Last edited by XT; 05-18-2018 at 10:28 AM.
  #36  
Old 05-18-2018, 10:25 AM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 34,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
It’s a little ironic that you highlight this specific article because CNN in general and Chris Cillizza in particular are emblematic of a histrionic and superficial coverage of the outrage du jour instead of in-depth coverage of substantial lapses in judgement and ethics. Cillizza’s opinions read like a 13 year old gossiping on Instagram, notwithstanding his careless use of language and stating opinion as evidence. For actual information and useful analysis you need to go to sources such as Propublica.org or The Washington Post instead of CNN.com’s hysterical and click-bait riddled opinionizing.

Stranger
Thanks for your obvious concern, but I'll stick with CNN (BBC and AJ) for my news. If you don't like the opinion pieces I post to illustrate a point feel free to not take the click-bait.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #37  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:01 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Manor Farm
Posts: 18,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
Thanks for your obvious concern, but I'll stick with CNN (BBC and AJ) for my news. If you don't like the opinion pieces I post to illustrate a point feel free to not take the click-bait.
My point wasn’t out of any concern but rather to note that Cillizza in particular is one of the most egregious offenders of the school of “Look what Trump said now! OMG! So horrible! What’s he going to say tomorrow?” et cetera instead of providing any substantive reporting or analysis that might actually cause a reader to speak out or contact their elected representives on some particular issue. It’s exhausting to read even for the length of an article much less the daily regurgitation of Trump’s manifest crassness, stupidity, and brazen corruption and that of the people he surrounds himself with. That a cabinet member makes a tasteless comment in a private meeting is hardly worthy of flashing headlines and “political analysis” about what it all means, when it’s really just another in a flurry of examples that people in politics are often mean spirited and debased (and is just as true on both sides of the political spectrum).

How about we expect news organizations to report actual news instead of having half a dozen people sit around a table bullshitting and stirring the pot and then calling it “analysis” as if they’ve contributed anything to the world. Unfortunately, that isn’t something that CNN is noted for.

Stranger
  #38  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:07 PM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 34,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
My point wasn’t out of any concern but rather to note that Cillizza in particular is one of the most egregious offenders of the school of “Look what Trump said now! OMG! So horrible! What’s he going to say tomorrow?” et cetera instead of providing any substantive reporting or analysis that might actually cause a reader to speak out or contact their elected representives on some particular issue. It’s exhausting to read even for the length of an article much less the daily regurgitation of Trump’s manifest crassness, stupidity, and brazen corruption and that of the people he surrounds himself with. That a cabinet member makes a tasteless comment in a private meeting is hardly worthy of flashing headlines and “political analysis” about what it all means, when it’s really just another in a flurry of examples that people in politics are often mean spirited and debased (and is just as true on both sides of the political spectrum).

How about we expect news organizations to report actual news instead of having half a dozen people sit around a table bullshitting and stirring the pot and then calling it “analysis” as if they’ve contributed anything to the world. Unfortunately, that isn’t something that CNN is noted for.

Stranger
I don't know (or frankly care) who Cillizza is. I was merely linking to the (opinion) article to illustrate a point. I noticed the title of the article, thought it was relevant to the point I was making, so linked to it. I get that you don't like CNN and feel I should be looking at sources you approve of. I get this from my dad all the time who thinks I should be reading Fox. I'm used to CNN and the BBC and AJ, and while I don't follow any news source religiously (I basically glance at them a few times a day to see what the top stories are, and sometimes read some of the opinion pieces if they look I consider myself as up to date on the news as I wish to be. If you want more out of your news source, well, more power to you...expect what you like and ensure they are doing as you expect.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #39  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:40 PM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,940
Because it was funny?

Wait we are talking about the senator right?

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 05-18-2018 at 02:41 PM.
  #40  
Old 05-18-2018, 05:47 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 44,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
Actually, what I said was that I find it ironic that people who badmouthed McCain in the past are all outraged about this, while people who supported him aren't. This has nothing to do with humor and is instead a comment about tribalism, and how things can shift over time, including attitudes, if anything.
I'm not sure that's true. Who badmouthed McCain more - Obama or Trump? Disagreeing with someone's politics is not necessarily badmouthing, though in Trump world it appears to be.
And McCain disagreed with Obama without badmouthing him either, as his famous defense of Obama showed. But that was back when adults ran for president.
  #41  
Old 05-18-2018, 06:07 PM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 34,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I'm not sure that's true. Who badmouthed McCain more - Obama or Trump? Disagreeing with someone's politics is not necessarily badmouthing, though in Trump world it appears to be.
And McCain disagreed with Obama without badmouthing him either, as his famous defense of Obama showed. But that was back when adults ran for president.
Trump for sure. I wouldn't think Obama would badmouth anyone, really, certainly not McCain. They might have disagreed, but Obama was too classy to say something as monumentally stupid as this 'joke'.

I wasn't really talking about Obama, though.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #42  
Old 05-18-2018, 07:08 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 24,090
Step 1: Say something stupid and offensive.
Step 2: When called out on it, claim it was just a joke.
__________________
Have lost my patience with the refusal to moderate trolls and hate on this board and am taking a break.
  #43  
Old 05-18-2018, 09:14 PM
dalej42 dalej42 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,384
It's not at all a joke. But, it is a very cold, but accurate statement. John McCain will not cast another vote in the US Senate. Therefore, his opinion is irrelevant.

It is still a very stupid political move from the Trump administration. If McCain dies or chooses to resign soon, then there will be a special election for his seat and the party controlling the seat could change. If McCain stays alive and doesn't resign, then after approximately June 1, the current Republican governor can appoint a new Senator to serve out the remainder of McCain's term, expiring in 2022.
  #44  
Old 05-18-2018, 09:23 PM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 15,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
It's not at all a joke. But, it is a very cold, but accurate statement. John McCain will not cast another vote in the US Senate. Therefore, his opinion is irrelevant.

It is still a very stupid political move from the Trump administration. If McCain dies or chooses to resign soon, then there will be a special election for his seat and the party controlling the seat could change. If McCain stays alive and doesn't resign, then after approximately June 1, the current Republican governor can appoint a new Senator to serve out the remainder of McCain's term, expiring in 2022.
It's not in any way a political move from the Trump administration. Someone leaked what an insensitive staffer said at a closed meeting.
  #45  
Old 05-19-2018, 09:23 PM
voltaire's Avatar
voltaire voltaire is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 6,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
I don't think anybody means "joke, haha", they mean "joke" as in not intended to be taken seriously.

It's exactly the same thing that happened when Trump said he likes heroes who aren't captured. He wasn't originally being serious, but when challenged on it, Trump didn't apologize, he doubled down on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
He was joking? I must have missed something.
As I said, it was not a "joke, haha" it was something random he said off the cuff, intended only to voice his displeasure with McCain. At the time he said it, I'm pretty sure he hadn't actually formed the opinion that being a POW disqualified someone from being a hero. He was not being serious. It was not a joke, but he was originally just joking/being sarcastic because he didn't want to give McCain any credit whatsoever for anything.

But Trump being Trump, when challenged on it, he stuck to his guns and claimed sincerity. There's no way of measuring or proving how much that particular stupid remark (among the multitudes) and his refusal to back down or apologize cost him and his presidency, but I think it's widely underestimated.

Last edited by voltaire; 05-19-2018 at 09:24 PM.
  #46  
Old 05-19-2018, 09:32 PM
Johnny Ace Johnny Ace is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 5,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
As I said, it was not a "joke, haha" it was something random he said off the cuff, intended only to voice his displeasure with McCain. At the time he said it, I'm pretty sure he hadn't actually formed the opinion that being a POW disqualified someone from being a hero. He was not being serious. It was not a joke, but he was originally just joking/being sarcastic because he didn't want to give McCain any credit whatsoever for anything.

But Trump being Trump, when challenged on it, he stuck to his guns and claimed sincerity. There's no way of measuring or proving how much that particular stupid remark (among the multitudes) and his refusal to back down or apologize cost him and his presidency, but I think it's widely underestimated.
Among who? The Dems who hate him already? The Pubbies who don't care WTF he says or does so long as they're still in charge? Those in between who are dumb or deluded or unengaged enough to believe in nothing more than a snake-oil salesman?

I remain pretty much irretrievably skeptical of the intelligence of the masses, especially after the clusterfuck that they've plunged the country into.
  #47  
Old 05-19-2018, 09:52 PM
voltaire's Avatar
voltaire voltaire is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 6,089
Among those who consider practically anyone who ever served in the military a hero. And among those who consider anyone who would question the hero status of a POW like John McCain to be an idiot. Now, that some might consider him a useful idiot is neither here nor there, and won't do him or his presidency any good.

Last edited by voltaire; 05-19-2018 at 09:54 PM.
  #48  
Old 05-20-2018, 11:13 AM
Tread Tread is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 710
It was referred to as a joke to try and make it more acceptable to people.

But it wasn't a joke, it was a statement of high probability. The man is dying, so his opposition would have very little meaning a short amount of time.

Poor taste.. yeah I would agree with that.
  #49  
Old 05-20-2018, 12:33 PM
Johnny Ace Johnny Ace is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 5,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
Among those who consider practically anyone who ever served in the military a hero.
I'd say many are to some degree patriots, at least those avoiding prison sentences, involuntarily drafted, or simply trying to escape poor economic prospects being major exceptions.

Quote:
And among those who consider anyone who would question the hero status of a POW like John McCain to be an idiot.
Anyone who evaded military service and then criticized him solely for having been a POW? And wouldn't know patriotism if it bit him in the ass?

Last edited by Johnny Ace; 05-20-2018 at 12:33 PM.
  #50  
Old 05-20-2018, 01:08 PM
John Mace's Avatar
John Mace John Mace is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 85,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
I don't think anybody means "joke, haha", they mean "joke" as in not intended to be taken seriously.

It's exactly the same thing that happened when Trump said he likes heroes who aren't captured. He wasn't originally being serious, but when challenged on it, Trump didn't apologize, he doubled down on it.
Well, that was something I did hear, and it didn't seem like a joke to me. It seems like Trump is the epitome of someone who engages his mouth before he engages his mind. I'm not even sure if the word "intent" is applicable much of what he says other than "what can I say right now that in whatever twisted way makes me look better than the other guy, whether it's true or not".

Last edited by John Mace; 05-20-2018 at 01:08 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:32 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017