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Old 05-22-2018, 09:26 AM
Ashtura Ashtura is online now
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Do "hardened schools" prevent mass shootings?

I would like to know if there's any school shooting statistics on "hardened schools". For the purpose of the discussion I'm going to include the following measures.

1) Multiple armed LEOs onsite at all times
2) All unlocked entrances utilizing metal detectors

If there are other common shooting counter measures, I may add them. Have there been mass shootings at schools that have taken these precautions?

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-22-2018 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:37 AM
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Maybe it's just my outlook on the subject but, when we've reached the point where we have to hide our own children inside fortresses to protect them from the obviously out of control proliferation of deadly weapons that permeate our ever increasingly violent society, it just might be time to make some fundamental changes. Right now, we are much more like Liberia than we are like Sweden, and there's something very wrong with that.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:42 AM
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My old high school has security doors at the end of every hallway and everyone is issued an ID badge. Without a badge you can only enter through the main entrance, and once inside you still can't get past the foyer without passing through the front office.

(full disclosure: I didn't actually attend this school, I graduated from the old building that had none of these security measures)
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:43 AM
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I don't think there are any such statistics. I doubt there could ever be any, since it would really be attempting to prove a negative. How do you know "hardening" worked if there are no attempts? 99.7% of schools in this country don't have shootings now.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:50 AM
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Yes I too worry about the harmful long term effects it has on the children to basically attend what I would term a prison school, and the long term effects on society if it was done 'en-masse'. I would think that use of high technology may be a way of accomplishing the goal of the OP with keeping a more open format.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:25 AM
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Right now, we are much more like Liberia than we are like Sweden, and there's something very wrong with that.
1. No, we're really not. This is overblown hyperbole.

2. A Scandinavian monoculture will never be comparable to the US.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:52 AM
Ashtura Ashtura is online now
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Maybe it's just my outlook on the subject but, when we've reached the point where we have to hide our own children inside fortresses to protect them from the obviously out of control proliferation of deadly weapons that permeate our ever increasingly violent society, it just might be time to make some fundamental changes. Right now, we are much more like Liberia than we are like Sweden, and there's something very wrong with that.
That's fine. But you would agree we need to put a curb on this sooner rather than later, right?

What proposal do you have to get rid of the "deadly weapons" that doesn't require super majorities in Congress, two-thirds in both the House and the Senate, and ratified by 38 states? Recall the texas shooting was accomplished with a common shotgun and revolver, so we're pretty much gonna have to get rid of all of 'em to really put a damper school shootings.

How do you propose to to decrease a the violence in our society? (and I'm not really sure that's the case, I believe violent crime has gone down steadily since the 1990's).

And, obviously, I'm not proposing hardening schools, if that won't work either. That's why I would like to see statistics. But it won't take passing a constitutional amendment to do that.

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-22-2018 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:57 AM
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A Scandinavian monoculture will never be comparable to the US.
Yep: it's multiculturalism that's to blame for (usually) young white men doing this

Last edited by Mijin; 05-22-2018 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:21 AM
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1. No, we're really not. This is overblown hyperbole.

2. A Scandinavian monoculture will never be comparable to the US.
We're a mono culture here too. We're all Americans. Problem is some Americans view other Americans as not really American. That's our problem as a society to figure out, and its not unsolvable just because we don't all look the same. I think if you went to Sweden you'd find all kinds of people there as well. Regardless of whether a lot of them happen to have light skin and blonde hair.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:53 AM
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Yep: it's multiculturalism that's to blame for (usually) young white men doing this
That's not what I'm saying.

Canada is similar to the US, and also doesn't have these kind of shootings. Canada is not a monoculture at all. It's very multicultural. Never heard of an incident like these in Canada.

The US is not like Sweden. It's not like Japan. It's not like any of the places that American utopians try to compare it to.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:59 AM
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So this uniquely American problem is something that we just can't solve? It exists just because of who we are, and we are powerless? I have to believe that we can be better than this. I have to believe that we can find a way to stop our kids from getting massacred. If not then we are a broken society, and I don't see how we can have any hope for our future. Our kids *are* our future and they are growing up assuming that they will be shot one day. Not afraid that it might happen, assuming that it will happen. I'm afraid the future will not judge us kindly. Hell the present seems to be judging us pretty harshly right now and I can't really disagree.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:02 PM
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
I would like to know if there's any school shooting statistics on "hardened schools". For the purpose of the discussion I'm going to include the following measures.

1) Multiple armed LEOs onsite at all times
2) All unlocked entrances utilizing metal detectors

If there are other common shooting counter measures, I may add them. Have there been mass shootings at schools that have taken these precautions?
Well...the recent shooting in Santa Fe was at a school with multiple armed LEO onsite.

And Adam Lanza confronted a locked elementary school in Newtown. He had to blast his way in.
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:09 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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That's fine. But you would agree we need to put a curb on this sooner rather than later, right?

What proposal do you have to get rid of the "deadly weapons" that doesn't require super majorities in Congress, two-thirds in both the House and the Senate, and ratified by 38 states?
I believe that the only viable proposal is exactly the one that requires the super-majorities and the multi-state approval. I think it's time to stop tinkering with distractions and get on with it. The United States has a harmful and stupid law enshrined in its constitution, that law is the problem, and the sooner it's repealed the better.
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
I would like to know if there's any school shooting statistics on "hardened schools". For the purpose of the discussion I'm going to include the following measures.

1) Multiple armed LEOs onsite at all times
2) All unlocked entrances utilizing metal detectors

If there are other common shooting counter measures, I may add them. Have there been mass shootings at schools that have taken these precautions?
It's hard to get such statistics, since (as far as I know) only the US uses these precautions.
It certainly sounds expensive to have many armed guards and metal detectors at every school.

(As is well-known, other countries have gun control and have far less school shootings.)
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:23 PM
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It's hard to get such statistics, since (as far as I know) only the US uses these precautions.
It certainly sounds expensive to have many armed guards and metal detectors at every school.

(As is well-known, other countries have gun control and have far less school shootings.)
Let's skip the "other countries" stuff, unless the other countries have the equivalent of a second amendment, with the same difficulty of repeal process.

We can compare to other countries all day long, but that isn't going wave away the 2A, which, I think most people realize isn't going away anytime soon,
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:28 PM
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That's not what I'm saying.

Canada is similar to the US, and also doesn't have these kind of shootings. Canada is not a monoculture at all. It's very multicultural. Never heard of an incident like these in Canada.

The US is not like Sweden. It's not like Japan. It's not like any of the places that American utopians try to compare it to.
Ecole Polytechnique Massacre.

Granted, that was nearly thirty years ago.
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:28 PM
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So the power to stop this seems to be only in the hands of gun owners and the NRA? If the rest of us are powerless, it must therefore fall on them. In which case it seems our kids are screwed and we have collectively failed them.
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:32 PM
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that isn't going wave away the 2A, which, I think most people realize isn't going away anytime soon,
It won't if we don't try, no. But the 2A, or rather result-driven and ahistorical misinterpretations of it, really is at the source of this malignancy in our society. Curing it really does require excision of its source.
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:48 PM
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First I want to stipulate that most schools have not experienced a mass shooting. This means that any data available from schools that have security measures in place like those described by the OP are very hard to extrapolate to other schools. With that in mind, there are two districts in the country that have these measures in place at some of their schools. The 2 largest school districts, LAUSD (Los Angeles) and NYS (New York) both have these measures in place at school in neighborhoods with high levels of violence.

This article gives a very high level overview of the what's involved in the system: costs, personnel, new risks associated with the system.

I don't think we can say that this system foils mass shooters, because the vast majority of schools don't have those incidents. It's impossible to conclude that this system has prevented anything. Perpetrators like Adam Lanza illustrate that it's possible to simply walk through security, particularly with the right weapons. One could imagine a scenario where a shooter simply shot the line of students waiting to get inside.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:04 PM
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I believe that the only viable proposal is exactly the one that requires the super-majorities and the multi-state approval. I think it's time to stop tinkering with distractions and get on with it. The United States has a harmful and stupid law enshrined in its constitution, that law is the problem, and the sooner it's repealed the better.
You'd also have to hire about 100000 ATF agents to go door to door to get rid of those 300 Million guns already there. And expect about 10000 Ruby Ridge situations. With of course many tens of thousands of LE and gun owners dead.

The casualty count would exceed the school shootings by many, many times.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:10 PM
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It won't if we don't try, no. But the 2A, or rather result-driven and ahistorical misinterpretations of it, really is at the source of this malignancy in our society. Curing it really does require excision of its source.
Well, by all means, try. But I'd really like to find something that will happen in our lifetimes (and most people will probably have the ability to print out fully functional guns at home in our lifetime too - so lets please stop pretending guns are going away - they aren't).
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:15 PM
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So what do we tell our kids?
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:19 PM
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You'd also have to hire about 100000 ATF agents to go door to door to get rid of those 300 Million guns already there. And expect about 10000 Ruby Ridge situations. With of course many tens of thousands of LE and gun owners dead.
But we are constantly reassured they're law-abiding. So, nothing to worry about.

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The casualty count would exceed the school shootings by many, many times.
In your scenario, those casualties would be essentially self-inflicted, unlike in a mass murder.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:20 PM
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So what do we tell our kids?
That we're all so very very sorry, and we hope they can do better.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:22 PM
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So what do we tell our kids?
"Hey, son, how was your day?" or something to that effect.

Given how "shocked" the shooter's families typically are, I doubt they spend 2 minutes a day talking to them.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:27 PM
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And the victim's families??

I'm going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you didn't mean that to come across so callously.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:37 PM
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Well, by all means, try. But I'd really like to find something that will happen in our lifetimes (and most people will probably have the ability to print out fully functional guns at home in our lifetime too - so lets please stop pretending guns are going away - they aren't).
I think it's counterproductive to imply that the obvious and only solution is in some sense "impossible", something we must just accept as though it's inevitable, when it's actually just something we choose not to do. A majority of Americans have consistently chosen that the right of ordinary citizens to obtain guns with few restrictions is more important than the unfortunate (but straightforward) consequence that our society is awash with guns; and that the subset of citizens who are criminal, angry, suicidal, mentally unstable, or just angst-ridden teenagers can also easily obtain guns (whether legally or not).

School shootings get a lot of publicity, but the probability of your own kids being killed in a school shooting is still extremely low. Presumably that probability is just not yet high enough to encourage the majority to change their minds about giving up their right to own guns.

I really don't see the need to wring our hands and say "there must be some solution other than the obvious one that we choose not to implement". We should repeal the 2nd Amendment, or we must own the consequences, one of which is school shootings.

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Old 05-22-2018, 02:39 PM
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And the victim's families??

I'm going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you didn't mean that to come across so callously.
A profanity laced tirade against the NRA and gun owners is no more going to comfort the victim's families than "hopes and prayers". Seriously, you have little to no influence on other people's kids. You do have influence on your own kid. You do have control over your own gun stash (or lack of).
A lot of these school shooters have red flags up the yin yang, which somehow, are only seen after the fact. They need to be identified and dealt with, in ways other than pumping them with benzos.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:39 PM
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But we are constantly reassured they're law-abiding. So, nothing to worry about.

In your scenario, those casualties would be essentially self-inflicted, unlike in a mass murder.
Well, current laws, yes. But any one can have issues or not get the word with new laws. So, it's Ok by you that gun owners die, they dont deserve to live, eh?

The ATF agents, also?
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:41 PM
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So what do we tell our kids?
"Guess what, kids? We're moving to Sweden!"
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:44 PM
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Well, current laws, yes. But any one can have issues or not get the word with new laws. So, it's Ok by you that gun owners die, they dont deserve to live, eh?

The ATF agents, also?
Your typical hard-core anti is willing to sacrifice however many lives are necessary to stop the killing. That's just how they roll.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:50 PM
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Presumably that probability is just not yet high enough to encourage the majority to change their minds about giving up their right to own guns.

I really don't see the need to wring our hands and say "there must be some solution other than the obvious one that we choose not to implement". We should repeal the 2nd Amendment, or we must own the consequences, one of which is school shootings.
And what kind of probability do you think that will need to be?

Are we going to wait until that probablility is "high enough"? I suspect the probably you're talking about, is everybody personally knowing a school shooting victim. Fact of the matter is, people like their guns more than they like other people's kids they never met. Sad but true.

I never said do nothing, I'm talking about things that don't involve us turning into Sweden, because we aren't Sweden. Whatever we do is going to have to fall under the parameters of the second amendment existing, until whatever probability theshold you're talking about happens.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:52 PM
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A profanity laced tirade against the NRA and gun owners is no more going to comfort the victim's families than "hopes and prayers". Seriously, you have little to no influence on other people's kids. You do have influence on your own kid. You do have control over your own gun stash (or lack of).
A lot of these school shooters have red flags up the yin yang, which somehow, are only seen after the fact. They need to be identified and dealt with, in ways other than pumping them with benzos.
I don't recall saying anything about a "profanity laced tirade against the NRA and gun owners". Are you perhaps confusing me with another poster?

We as a society are collectively responsible for the world we create that our children grow up in. You can feel that your kid is the only one that you can have an effect on, but that's just not the way the world works. The decisions we collectively make as a society, and the results that follow, we are collectively responsible for. Our kids are screaming to get our attention that they are tired of seeing their friends get killed and thinking about themselves getting shot at school and right now our collective reaction is a shrug and the equivalent of "what are ya gonna do?". The fact that so many of us see no problem with this is going to haunt us. Having such disregard for the safety of our children in their schools is not a sign of a healthy society.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:55 PM
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So, it's Ok by you that gun owners die, they dont deserve to live, eh?
Please. Ever hear of "suicide by cop"? That's what you're describing. Some of the gun-blazers would no doubt tell themselves they were militias resisting tyranny etc., and some others would believe it, but that wouldn't make it true. Do please tell us who would actually be responsible for all these deaths you imagine (or is that threaten?).

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The ATF agents, also?
LEO's go to work every day knowing some a-hole with a gun could end it all. Do you advocate that they don't do their jobs, that we abandon civilization and the rule of law instead, just because some people don't like it?

If your death-threatening scenario were to come to pass, not saying that it would, you also need to give LEO organizations a little credit for planning and execution, being as how they actually are well-regulated in the real senses of the term. Please reread the parts of the Constitution about suppressing insurrection while you're at it.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:58 PM
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Actually, despite our hundreds of millions of guns, the uSA doesn't really have that many school mass attacks:
https://www.investors.com/politics/e...ass-shootings/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_death_toll

Note that there have even been some mass murders at a school with nothing but edged weapons.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:59 PM
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I don't recall saying anything about a "profanity laced tirade against the NRA and gun owners". Are you perhaps confusing me with another poster?
I don't know what you would say to a victim's family. I do know that a fair amount of people would have some choice words to say about the NRA.


Quote:
We as a society are collectively responsible for the world we create that our children grow up in. You can feel that your kid is the only one that you can have an effect on, but that's just not the way the world works. The decisions we collectively make as a society, and the results that follow, we are collectively responsible for. Our kids are screaming to get our attention that they are tired of seeing their friends get killed and thinking about themselves getting shot at school and right now our collective reaction is a shrug and the equivalent of "what are ya gonna do?". The fact that so many of us see no problem with this is going to haunt us. Having such disregard for the safety of our children in their schools is not a sign of a healthy society.
Well, I suspect that if there's a sea-change in attudes of screaming children in regards to guns, they will probably vote out all the politicians that support the 2A, won't they?
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:01 PM
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Please. Ever hear of "suicide by cop"? That's what you're describing. Some of the gun-blazers would no doubt tell themselves they were militias resisting tyranny etc., and some others would believe it, but that wouldn't make it true. Do please tell us who would actually be responsible for all these deaths you imagine (or is that threaten?).

LEO's go to work every day knowing some a-hole with a gun could end it all. Do you advocate that they don't do their jobs, that we abandon civilization and the rule of law instead, just because some people don't like it?

If your death-threatening scenario were to come to pass, not saying that it would, you also need to give LEO organizations a little credit for planning and execution, being as how they actually are well-regulated in the real senses of the term. Please reread the parts of the Constitution about suppressing insurrection while you're at it.
Sure, but they would still be dead. Saying that "it's their fault" is blaming the victim, and saying "they knew the job was dangerous" doesn't comfort the widows much.

It would still be a death toll many, many times higher than school shootings. The idea that it's Ok to kill that many is just wrong.
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:07 PM
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Sure, but they would still be dead. Saying that "it's their fault" is blaming the victim, and saying "they knew the job was dangerous" doesn't comfort the widows much.
Nobody is blaming the victim, and I don't see where you're getting that from. The responsibility for killing falls on the killer and on the killer's facilitators.

Quote:
It would still be a death toll many, many times higher than school shootings. The idea that it's Ok to kill that many is just wrong.
You know who's presenting that as a plausible scenario, one worth considering realistically, even threatening it? Hint: Not me.
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:16 PM
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I don't know what you would say to a victim's family. I do know that a fair amount of people would have some choice words to say about the NRA.
What about the rest of the kids? The ones that weren't the killer, or victims (yet), who go to school every day making sure they know the active shooter drill, where the closest exit and tree line is, and think about "what if today it happens at my school". They think about losing their friends, or think about their family if it happens to them. This is what our kids are thinking about because of the world we have made for them to grow up in. What will *you* say to them since you are the one saying there is nothing we can do to change things? That was what my original question was. I'm not sure why you thought I was referring to the shooters, as that was your first reply.


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Well, I suspect that if there's a sea-change in attudes of screaming children in regards to guns, they will probably vote out all the politicians that support the 2A, won't they?
Given the registration drives that are being generated by the movement started by the Parkland kids, I'd say you may see this happen sooner than you think. By the way, I've never been in favor of banning guns or taking them away, I just want more common sense laws to keep them out of the hands of dangerous people and disturbed kids. However the more defiant the gun rights side is to do *anything* the more people like me you push even further away. If you want a seat at the table to help solve this, then step up, if not, it'll get dealt with without your input, and probably not in a way you will be happy about.
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  #41  
Old 05-22-2018, 03:28 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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"Screaming children"?
  #42  
Old 05-22-2018, 03:33 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
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There are around 125,000 schools in the US. We've had, what, 3 big massacres since the start of the century? Sandy Hook, Parkland, Santa Fe. I didn't count Virginia Tech because I don't think university counts as what people think of as "school shootings" and protecting our kids, and I doubt colleges would have a serious proposal for this sort of security. Sure, there are others where someone brought a gun in and shot a person or two, but it's the big ones that get months of media coverage that really drive these proposals. 28 for Newtown, 17 for Pankland, 10 for Santa Fe. Let's go back to Columbine if you want and add another 15. 70 people (mostly kids, but some adults) killed in two decades years. Almost 3 people a year.

So we hire 3 cops per school, call it a pay, benefits, pension, all that stuff - call it $75,000 a year. And we give every school $500,000 to beef up their physical security. That's a startup cost of $62,500,000,000 - and an ongoing cost of $9,375,000,000 per year to harden our schools.

Okay, so it's not fair to only count massacres, even though that's what motivate this law, because the hardening would save kids from ordinary instances of murder or small shootings. So from here, I'll count all the gun homicides in any sort of elementary, middle, or high school since Columbine (inclusive). I tried to only include ones that would prevented by screening or other security inside those schools - so if someone else shot someone at a football game, for example, I didn't include that. That page's definition of a "school shooting" is extremely loose. For instance, it includes a kid shot by the Beltway sniper on his way to school, a drive by near a school that happened to hit a kid who wasn't actually at school, a drug deal gone bad in a college dormitory, and a man firing a pellet gun at a school bus which didn't even crack a window as "school shootings"

I got 92 people killed within a school by a gun that could've been prevented by perfect security. About 8 less if you don't count the killer taking themselves out at the end, or police shooting them, as part of the death toll. Remove another 4 if someone coming to school and shooting themselves with no intention of harming anyone else doesn't strike you as a school shooting. But let's say I miscounted and round it up to 100.

So we have 100 deaths in 19 years, a bit over 5 deaths per year.

If I told you, that, say, vending machines falling over, or heating equipment malfunctions, or swim team meets, or slipping on a wet floor killed 5 people per year in schools out of tens of millions of students and staff, would you be shocked? Would you view it as a bloodbath that puts us on par with liberia? Or would you say "huh, that sounds about right I guess" and not really give a shit? Would you be willing to spend $92 billion up front and $10 billion a year to prevent those 5 deaths if they were from those incidents?

What if we could save hundreds of thousands of kids with that hundred billion dollars by investing it in other ways, like health care? Or improving their lives by providing free college to the whole nation? Would you still want to spend it on securing schools?

And what if we do successfully secure our schools, so people who want to go out in a blaze of glory start shooting up train stations or movie theaters or concerts or daycare centers or a thousand other places? Do we secure those, too? Do we chase whatever the last tragedy was to ensure that a shooting at that particular venue doesn't happen again?

And I know this sounds like I'm about to say "so of course just ban the guns, that protects everywhere!" but that's another debate. Suffice to say, I think that the same thing will happen in that case too. Oh, so we ban a certain feature from guns. Okay, so people use other guns to shoot up schools. So then someone on antidepressants shoots up a movie theater, and we restrict people on antidepressants from owning guns. And we keep chasing the last tragedy there too while it doesn't really slow people down all that much.

The reality is that 5 people dying per year for any reason is not some horrible epidemic that threatens our existence. I know, that sounds heartless, but you feel the same way about literally hundreds or thousands of ways to die that kill a few people per year. You wouldn't want to rearrange society or pay hundreds of billions of dollars to save people choking themselves to death while masturbatng or dying from their riding lawn mower tipping over either. It's tragic that kids get shot in schools, but in the grand scheme of things, it's a tiny tiny slice of even gun violence, let alone all untimely deaths. Any massive changes we undertake in our society in response to them would be far disproportionate to the actual problem.

Someone I know, an Australian, was going off on how stupid Americans were because of the school shootings. I asked him what percentage of schools do you think have had a big school shooting this year. He guessed 10-15%. Many orders of magnitude too high. People don't understand how big the world is. They can only really relate on a small scale - things they know, things they experienced. But they get bad news from all over the world. So they have this idea in their head of how big the world is, or how big the country is, and it's far too small. But they get all the most spectacular bad news from all of it. So it gives them a false sense of scale - they think things that affect a miniscule percentage of people are commonplace and are likely to affect them and people they know. They can't properly place risk in context.

They can only follow narratives - and "omg, a bunch of kids got murdered!" is one of the most horrifying narratives we can throw in front of people. And so we think the problem of school shootings is far, far bigger than it actually is, and so proposals to fix this problem perceived to be an existential threat to our country are far too costly and far reaching by any sort of logical, dispassionate utilitarian analysis.
  #43  
Old 05-22-2018, 03:34 PM
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Riemann Riemann is offline
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Fact of the matter is, people like their guns more than they like other people's kids they never met. Sad but true.
That's my point.

I think endorsing a narrative that repealing the 2nd Amendment is "impossible" is a mistake. I think after every school shooting we should be driving home the point that the majority of Americans have chosen to value their own right to own weapons over the safety of society as a whole. School shootings are one of the direct consequences of that choice, and there is only one robust solution - to make a different choice.

Perhaps in the U.S. the majority will never make that different choice. But a first step is to hold people accountable for the consequences of the choices they have made.

I think it's counterproductive to engage with the bullshit distractions about mental health, school security, violent video games, or the preposterous notion that it's just as easy to kill people with a knife or a car as a gun. Shortcomings in mental health care might contribute a few percent to the severity of the problem. But it's not the central issue, and never will be. No human societies lack a significant proportion of unbalanced or disillusioned people, some of whom are potentially violent. The U.S. is no exception, and never will be. But virtually all other civilized societies have chosen an approach that is much more robust to failure. Since many of the future potential murderers are always a subset of current law-abiding citizens, the only reliable way to reduce violent carnage is to ensure that no citizen can obtain the tools to kill a lot of people quickly and easily.

Repeal the 2nd Amendment, or own the consequences.

Last edited by Riemann; 05-22-2018 at 03:38 PM.
  #44  
Old 05-22-2018, 03:42 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is online now
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What will *you* say to them since you are the one saying there is nothing we can do to change things?
Why do you say I there's nothing that can be done? I'm saying, for one, look into hardened schools, see if they work. Or do you mean change that you're in favor of? Can we agree that there is no solution to the school shooting problem that is going to make some people upset?

And, since we're looking at "common sense laws" that might push up against the second amendment, I would also propose placing one on the first: Ban posting the names and faces of all school shooters by media outlets. This should help curb copycats. If it saves one life, it's worth it?

Also, we need to hold parents, schools and law enforcement responsible when obvious red flags are missed. The amount of things that just plain got ignored with the Parkland Shooter, for example, is disgraceful.


Quote:
Given the registration drives that are being generated by the movement started by the Parkland kids, I'd say you may see this happen sooner than you think.
Good, if the second amendment gets repealed, I'd at least like it to happen legally, and somehow avoid a civil war.



Quote:
By the way, I've never been in favor of banning guns or taking them away, I just want more common sense laws to keep them out of the hands of dangerous people and disturbed kids.
Good, me too.


Quote:
However the more defiant the gun rights side is to do *anything* the more people like me you push even further away. If you want a seat at the table to help solve this, then step up, if not, it'll get dealt with without your input, and probably not in a way you will be happy about.
I've seen bipartisan support for things like bump stock bans, raising age to 21, more thorough background checks, and red restraining orders. These are all common sense to me.

Honestly, repealing the 2A wouldn't have any effect on me. I still don't own a gun.

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-22-2018 at 03:47 PM.
  #45  
Old 05-22-2018, 03:57 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
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First I want to stipulate that most schools have not experienced a mass shooting. This means that any data available from schools that have security measures in place like those described by the OP are very hard to extrapolate to other schools. With that in mind, there are two districts in the country that have these measures in place at some of their schools. The 2 largest school districts, LAUSD (Los Angeles) and NYS (New York) both have these measures in place at school in neighborhoods with high levels of violence.

This article gives a very high level overview of the what's involved in the system: costs, personnel, new risks associated with the system.

I don't think we can say that this system foils mass shooters, because the vast majority of schools don't have those incidents. It's impossible to conclude that this system has prevented anything. Perpetrators like Adam Lanza illustrate that it's possible to simply walk through security, particularly with the right weapons. One could imagine a scenario where a shooter simply shot the line of students waiting to get inside.
That's a good article, though the only "new risk" I found is that schools might rely on metal detectors alone. The prohibitive factor seems to be cost. That's certainly the reason the school I taught at didn't get them.

Adam Lanza did not "walk through" security: he shot his way through a glass panel next to the locked school door. A locked school door is fine, but it's not "security." I agree that metal detectors alone won't be 100% effective at keeping adult shooters out of schools, but that's not their sole purpose. 95% of school shootings are done by students. It's very easy for a kid to hide a handgun in a backpack. I had a student who did this. The sad reality is that metal detectors are used mainly to protect kids from other kids.

The question we face now is whether our horror at the relatively few school shootings outweighs our seeming reluctance to spend the money necessary to use a variety of means to better secure schools.
  #46  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:07 PM
Mister Mills Mister Mills is offline
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There may have been multiple deputies at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida. Deputy Peterson is the one who has been excoriated, but there may have been others. I don't know if that has been confirmed though.

Coral Springs cops who responded to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School say several Broward sheriff’s deputies waited outside rather than rush in as the killer was gunning down students, according to reports.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/24...port-says.html
  #47  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:14 PM
Mister Mills Mister Mills is offline
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Repeal the 2nd Amendment, or own the consequences.
That is silly and dangerously ill conceived. There would be a civil war, will you fight in it?
  #48  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:19 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Naw, mostly just a lot of pants-pissing when the cops show up.

There'd be a handful of True Believers, sure, like the ones who took over that bird sanctuary. Do you advocate that we allow ourselves to (continue to) be their hostages?

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 05-22-2018 at 04:21 PM.
  #49  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:23 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is online now
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Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
Naw, mostly just a lot of pants-pissing when the cops show up.

There'd be a handful of True Believers, sure, like the ones who took over that bird sanctuary. Do you advocate that we allow ourselves to (continue to) be their hostages?
I kind of doubt that. People just wouldn't comply, and then only outlaws would have guns!

Massachusetts passed a bump stock ban. Owning a bump stock is now a felony, and has been since February. Do you know how many people have turned in their bump stocks? Three. Three people.

Cops going door to door and grabbing guns would require a gun registry, and we don't even have that.

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-22-2018 at 04:26 PM.
  #50  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:26 PM
Wolf333 Wolf333 is offline
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Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
So what do we tell our kids?


Be honest:
Any people in this country believe that their guns are more important than you. Until that changes, sorry.


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