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Old 05-22-2018, 06:57 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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It should be illegal for parent to kick their children out of their homes

The other day I was reading about a 30 yo man being taken to the supreme court by his parents to have him evicted from their home (recent developments on this matter here )

This shouldn't be legal. The way I see things, if you create a being, if you bring a person into this world, then you are responsible for that person's well-being for life, not just up until some arbitrary age ie '18.' A person should be able to live with their parents for as long as they wish, without paying a single dime towards room and board, or without even having to express a single shred of gratitude. Parents owe this, and more, to their offspring.

The only possible exception I would make for parents evicting their offspring from their home is if the offspring were psychotically violent.

If I ever became a father (that'll never happen), I would allow my child to live with me for as long as they wished, and only let them leave if they were absolutely sure that's what they wanted. Any parent worth their salt would the same, imo.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:04 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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I may not be worth my salt (but then again I'm not roman), but I think that, legally speaking, once a person becomes a legal adult they are legally an individual entity with their own rights and responsibilities. If I were legally mandated to maintain legal custody over an individual unto perpetuity, then I would also expected to maintain legal control over them unto perpetuity, enforcing my own rules which they would be obligated by the state to obey.

In other words, they're my slaves.

On the other hand, if I am required to house them, but do not maintain control over them, then I am being required by the state to carry out this job without pay or chance of escape.

In other words, I'm their slave.

There might be problems with enacting such a law, at least at the federal level.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:30 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Link in OP doesn't work, this one does

Last edited by Marcus Flavius; 05-22-2018 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:34 PM
Shagnasty Shagnasty is offline
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
This shouldn't be legal. The way I see things, if you create a being, if you bring a person into this world, then you are responsible for that person's well-being for life, not just up until some arbitrary age ie '18.' A person should be able to live with their parents for as long as they wish, without paying a single dime towards room and board, or without even having to express a single shred of gratitude. Parents owe this, and more, to their offspring.

The only possible exception I would make for parents evicting their offspring from their home is if the offspring were psychotically violent.
No, that is just crazy talk. Good parents usually help their kids even into early adulthood but they shouldn't have to. Most 18 year olds can get a job and a really crappy apartment if they need to just fine or they can join the military or lots of other things. You really want to give someone free room and board for life? What else is on the list? A car, clothes and an entertainment budget? That is how you get really dysfunctional adolescents that just happen to also be over 18 or 21. Room and board is a privilege once you are an adult and being able to take that away is one tool parents can use if their adult child is making the wrong choices in life.

You last paragraph is ass backwards as well. Someone that has a true mental illness may be one of the ones that needs that type of care the most and the parents may be the only ones that can do it. You can't just slap someone in a psychiatric facility for life very easily.

It varies on a case by case basis but the parents should not be required to give adult kids anything unless you also propose to strip away the rest of the child's rights. That is how you end up with basement dwellers that are 35 years old and have never even had a job or been on a date. I already told mine that, not because I don't love them, but because I do and they are going to have to survive on their own.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:36 PM
D'Anconia D'Anconia is offline
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
This shouldn't be legal. The way I see things, if you create a being, if you bring a person into this world, then you are responsible for that person's well-being for life, not just up until some arbitrary age ie '18.' A person should be able to live with their parents for as long as they wish, without paying a single dime towards room and board, or without even having to express a single shred of gratitude. Parents owe this, and more, to their offspring.
You're not actually serious, are you?
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:47 PM
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If I ever became a father (that'll never happen), I would allow my child to live with me for as long as they wished, and only let them leave if they were absolutely sure that's what they wanted. Any parent worth their salt would the same, imo.
Spoken as a true non-parent.

In many cases, my step-son's included, the best thing in the world for his own future potential was to kick him into the street on his own at 18. If we hadn't, he'd still be lurking in the basement playing video games instead of being a semi-productive member of society.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:48 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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No, that is just crazy talk. Good parents usually help their kids even into early adulthood but they shouldn't have to.
Why just up until early adulthood? If you are a parent, you have created a being, a being who never asked to be born I might add, who never asked to be brought into this world.


Quote:
Most 18 year olds can get a job and a really crappy apartment if they need to just fine or they can join the military or lots of other things.
And they absolutely shouldn't have to if they don't want to.

Quote:
You really want to give someone free room and board for life?
Yes. You brought this person into this world, without their consent. Now you care for them, and provide for them for as long as they wish.


Quote:
It varies on a case by case basis but the parents should not be required to give adult kids anything unless you also propose to strip away the rest of the child's rights.
The children should not have their rights stripped. Parents owe their children everything. But children don't owe their parents anything.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:50 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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You're not actually serious, are you?
Serious as a heart attack.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:54 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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I am of the opinion that it's not good for a human being to go through their lives never learning to be self-sufficient. Letting freeloading brats stay forever is bad for them. I don't think the state should legally require bad child-rearing.

Plus, if the state wants children to be considered children forever, they shouldn't give them adult rights. Are you okay with children having no adult rights whatsoever for as long as they remain in their parents' homes?
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:55 PM
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Maybe you’re confusing “child” with “pet.”
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:55 PM
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Oh, and what happens when the parents become ancient and want to move to a retirement home? "Can't - you have to keep changing your kid's diaper."
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:56 PM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is offline
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Can I ask whether you are a parent? Whether you have a great relationship with your own parents? And, do you live with them and do they support you?

Just curious is all.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:56 PM
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You might run into a little problem with the 13th amendment, but it would sure put a damper on population growth!
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:58 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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Can I ask whether you are a parent? Whether you have a great relationship with your own parents? And, do you live with them and do they support you?

Just curious is all.
No to all three.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:00 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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You might run into a little problem with the 13th amendment, but it would sure put a damper on population growth!
I don't see how making people take responsibility for what they've done is 'slavery.' And yes, people would probably think damn long and hard before bringing a person into this world if they knew they'd have to care of that person for the rest of their lives.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:01 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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Why just up until early adulthood? If you are a parent, you have created a being, a being who never asked to be born I might add, who never asked to be brought into this world.
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You brought this person into this world, without their consent.
You seem really focused on the "consent" part of this, which strikes me as a sort of silly place to focus, since of course people who don't yet exist can't consent to anything. But that's ok! For one, it's not as though existence is a horrid prison. It's kinda fun most of the time. And for another, anyone who doesn't want to continue on with it is perfectly capable of taking their leave of the rest of us.

But, let's say I agree with you, that I am obligated to provide for my children for as long as they wish. There's a pretty major problem looming. I'm likely to predecease my children by at least a few decades. What happens to my 50ish year old child who's never stood on his own two feet when I die? Almost certain misery and ruin.

Most charitably, I would call your claim short-sighted.

I would counter with the argument that I am obligated to do what is in my children's best interest at every age. Which, for the vast majority of children, involves kicking them out on their ass whether they like it or not once they get to the point that they need to support themselves. Because while I happily change diapers, I ain't gonna be around to wipe their asses forever.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:01 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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I don't see how making people take responsibility for what they've done is 'slavery.' And yes, people would probably think damn long and hard before bringing a person into this world if they knew they'd have to care of that person for the rest of their lives.
I more got the impression that the kids would never reproduce, on account of being basement-dwelling man-children.

ETA: Ooh - and if the child somehow does managed to reproduce, can the adults in the house throw the grandchild out? It's not like they consented to it! (And if they can, can they throw it out immediately? It's their loser kid's responsibility to keep the baby alive, not theirs, after all...)

Last edited by begbert2; 05-22-2018 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:05 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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...is this a God-And-Us-And-Tickets-To-Paradise thing?
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:09 PM
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I don't see how making people take responsibility for what they've done is 'slavery.'
Of course you don't!
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:10 PM
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On one hand this is crazy talk. On the other hand there are several states that make people's adult children legally responsible for the cost of their care and that's even crazier - talk about a completely unasked for and unfair burden.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:13 PM
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The issues being dealt with in this thread are way deeper than tenancy law.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:18 PM
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So what happens if this 30 year old "child" gets a woman pregnant? Does he have to take care of the child? In his parents' house? Are they responsible for this grandchild?
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:22 PM
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Man, this takes "failure to launch" to a whole new level.

Needless to say, I think the idea is insane from the get-go. The second that kid becomes a legal adult the parents have, and ought to have the right and ability to kick them to the curb in a heartbeat.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:23 PM
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What, walrus, you think that you're off the hook just because you're dead? You're still the person who spawned that miserable git, so you still have to take care of him. Drag your lazy ass out of your coffin and order him a pizza, already!
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
...You brought this person into this world, without their consent. Now you care for them, and provide for them for as long as they wish...
If the problem is lack of consent to existence, how about if we make voluntary euthanasia freely available to anyone when they reach the age of majority? Would that address the injustice that you perceive?
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:35 PM
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Am I being....Poe's Law'd?
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:43 PM
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... You brought this person into this world, without their consent. Now you care for them, and provide for them for as long as they wish....
There a flaw in the logic here somewhere ...

However, if we accept your premise, that parents are responsible for caring and providing for their children, the obligation is met by teaching them to care and provide for themselves.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:44 PM
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The way I see things, if you create a being, if you bring a person into this world, then you are responsible for that person's well-being for life, not just up until some arbitrary age ie '18.' A person should be able to live with their parents for as long as they wish, without paying a single dime towards room and board, or without even having to express a single shred of gratitude. Parents owe this, and more, to their offspring.
Okay, I owe you food, shelter and a minimal sense of security.

However, my house, my rules. Now go to your room, and no internet for you.

Got a problem with that? Move out.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:45 PM
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Am I being....Poe's Law'd?
No, look at some of the OP's other threads. It's the same baby, wrapped up in new clothes.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:49 PM
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If I ever became a father (that'll never happen), ...
Not living at home with your parents in your 30s it won't!
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:18 PM
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No, look at some of the OP's other threads. It's the same baby, wrapped up in new clothes.
Speaking of babies, is anybody else getting the feeling that this some sort of argument from absurdity for/against abortion? With the whole 'consent' and 'obligation' thing and all?

By a straight analogy I'd say it was an argument from absurdity in favor of abortion - it would obviously be dumb to force parents to keep adult children, so it's thus dumb to make them keep fetuses. However there's such a huge and obvious flaw with that analogy that I'm wondering if its supposed to be a parody of an argument for absurdity and thus, via double negation, an argument against abortion.

I'm so confused.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:30 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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marcus flavius:

I think you're conflating caring about someone and caring for someone.

Being willing to help, and being willing to help in exactly the way that's requested, are also not the same thing.

Some parents are worthless assholes - I get that. But exactly what makes someone qualify as the worthless-asshole parent is not yet clear to you.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:38 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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You seem really focused on the "consent" part of this, which strikes me as a sort of silly place to focus, since of course people who don't yet exist can't consent to anything.
It's not a hard concept to grasp. We were not (and could not have been) consulted before our births as to whether we wanted to be brought into this world, into our particular circumstances, to being precisely what we are. We had absolutely no say in any of these matters. So in light of these facts, it seems to be thoughtless and cruel to kick your offspring onto the streets at any age.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:41 PM
Marcus Flavius Marcus Flavius is offline
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If the problem is lack of consent to existence, how about if we make voluntary euthanasia freely available to anyone when they reach the age of majority? Would that address the injustice that you perceive?
I'm not opposed to the concept of voluntary euthanasia. But no, to the second part of your question.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:06 PM
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If I were a parent, I would be receptive to having an adult child live with me indefinitely, even if they were able-bodied and -minded. This is a tough world. Lots of people would be a lot better off financially if their parents hadn't pushed them out in the cruel, cold world at the arbitrary age of 18. Unfortunately a lot of parents have the "push 'em out the door at 18" mentality, but then wonder why their offspring are crippled by debt and the poor choices that debt contributes to.

However, I don't believe in "no strings attached" anything. If you're living under my roof, you live with my rules--even if those rules are crazy. And if you can't live under those rules, I should be able to kick you out.

I think this thread would be more substantive if the OP framed the debate differently by asking whether parents have an ethical or moral obligation to provide basic care for their adult children well into adulthood. Can someone still be a good parent and refuse to let their 25-year-old move in with them, even if the 25-year-old is a decent person who is "adulting" the best way they know how? My reflex is to find such a parent pretty heartless (provided they at least have a couch or a floor to sleep on). But perhaps other people feel like they would have to know certain things (just how "decent" is the adult child and just how hard have they tried to "adult") before they judge the parents too harshly.

I don't think there is much of a debate about whether it should be illegal to kick out your adult kids, though. That's bananas.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:12 PM
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The point is; to not have to kick them out. You raise them, teach them and prepare them for the big ol' world. Then they leave you and go to college or the military. You help if you can. You visit them, they visit you. They get married. They bring the grand kids around. And hopefully when you're old and unable to care for yourself they will step up and help you.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:30 PM
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I don't think it should be illegal, but parents should as objectively as possible analyze the situation and do what's best for their kids. If you know you're crappy parenting is the reason they can't make it in the real world, you need to continue to take care of them until they can. If you've been a good parent and they just don't wanna, then like any good mother bird they need to be kicked out of the nest.

A common thing I'm seeing nowadays is endless schooling. It's easy to get parents to let you stay with them as long as you're in school. Except that's BS in many cases, because half the time the kids don't actually have a passion for becoming a lawyer or doctor or corporate CEO so don't need 8 years of post graduate study. Once you have a BA, you can make it quite well on your own and pursue more advanced degrees in your spare time with your spare money. Get the F out.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:41 PM
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It's not a hard concept to grasp. We were not (and could not have been) consulted before our births as to whether we wanted to be brought into this world, into our particular circumstances, to being precisely what we are. We had absolutely no say in any of these matters. So in light of these facts, it seems to be thoughtless and cruel to kick your offspring onto the streets at any age.
Life is thoughtless and cruel. Get used to it.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:47 PM
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I'm not opposed to the concept of voluntary euthanasia. But no, to the second part of your question.
But if the issue is consent, the adult child, being able to elect to opt out of living and choosing not to, is now "consenting" to life. If they don't consent, they can sign up for euthanasia.
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:09 AM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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But if the issue is consent, the adult child, being able to elect to opt out of living and choosing not to, is now "consenting" to life. If they don't consent, they can sign up for euthanasia.
Right - the second the kid becomes a legal adult who is perceived by the law as being able to make decisions for himself, he becomes solely responsible for his own consent to be alive. The parents may have been responsible for this consent prior to the child being legally allowed to make decisions for himself, but the second the kid gains the right to legally choose to blow his own brains out, the parents aren't responsible for his continuing life at all.

Unless, of course, the kid doesn't become a legal adult, which control over his own decisions. In which case clearly the parents do retain responsibility, and can also totally enslave him. With chains.

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Old 05-23-2018, 12:50 AM
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The parents gave the child life and eighteen years' worth of food, clothing, and shelter. How are you saying the parents owe the child at that point? Shouldn't the child be in debt to the parents?
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:55 AM
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Unless, of course, the kid doesn't become a legal adult, which control over his own decisions. In which case clearly the parents do retain responsibility, and can also totally enslave him. With chains.
That was the classical Roman system. The senior male member of the family was the Patriarch. Both culturally and legally, he ruled the family including his adult children. He even theoretically had the right to kill anyone in his family who disobeyed him (although this was not normally invoked).

So you had situation where grown men in their forties and fifties were not considered to be full adults or have full legal rights because their fathers were still alive.
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:33 AM
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Life is thoughtless and cruel. Get used to it.
True. But someday you get to die. So that's something to look forward to.
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:59 AM
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If I were a parent, I would be receptive to having an adult child live with me indefinitely, even if they were able-bodied and -minded. This is a tough world. Lots of people would be a lot better off financially if their parents hadn't pushed them out in the cruel, cold world at the arbitrary age of 18. Unfortunately a lot of parents have the "push 'em out the door at 18" mentality, but then wonder why their offspring are crippled by debt and the poor choices that debt contributes to.
When I was on Site Council at our high school I was surprised by how many parents kicked their kids out at 18. In my neighborhood I doubt it was because they couldn't afford them. But the OP is talking unlimited, not until they have the skills and education to go on their own.

Quote:
I think this thread would be more substantive if the OP framed the debate differently by asking whether parents have an ethical or moral obligation to provide basic care for their adult children well into adulthood. Can someone still be a good parent and refuse to let their 25-year-old move in with them, even if the 25-year-old is a decent person who is "adulting" the best way they know how? My reflex is to find such a parent pretty heartless (provided they at least have a couch or a floor to sleep on). But perhaps other people feel like they would have to know certain things (just how "decent" is the adult child and just how hard have they tried to "adult") before they judge the parents too harshly.

I don't think there is much of a debate about whether it should be illegal to kick out your adult kids, though. That's bananas.
There is taking your kids back when they got laid off from work, or divorced, or something like that, and taking them back because they don't feel like standing on their own two feet. Any kid who moves back should have a plan on leaving again, and should support the house. There do seem to be sponge kids who don't want to take the risk of getting out there, and it is a service to those kids to kick them out eventually.
My kids are welcome to use our house for transitions, and have, but the end point is well known and they contribute in lots of ways. They both went to college far away which was great for everyone. My wife and I did also. Away college when possible is a good way of transitioning to independence.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post

If I ever became a father (that'll never happen), I would allow my child to live with me for as long as they wished, and only let them leave if they were absolutely sure that's what they wanted. Any parent worth their salt would the same, imo.
If you ever actually were a parent, you'd wise up about this in oh, about 18 years.
  #46  
Old 05-23-2018, 02:11 AM
guizot guizot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
It's not a hard concept to grasp. We were not (and could not have been) consulted before our births as to whether we wanted to be brought into this world, into our particular circumstances, to being precisely what we are. We had absolutely no say in any of these matters.
That's irrelevant. It posits a "we" which didn't exist at that moment. By that reasoning, there must be an infinite number of "we"s who do want to be born, and it would be to one of those to whom everyone gives birth. I'm sure that probably is a concept that's hard to grasp.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:39 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
It's not a hard concept to grasp. We were not (and could not have been) consulted before our births as to whether we wanted to be brought into this world, into our particular circumstances, to being precisely what we are. We had absolutely no say in any of these matters. So in light of these facts, it seems to be thoughtless and cruel to kick your offspring onto the streets at any age.
You absolutely do have a say in this matter. Anyone who resents being alive has the obvious path to correct the situation. So life is not an insurmountable burden you can't put down.

And that's the central pillar of your argument; without it, the rest of it crumbles. If being given life was not a debt other people owe you for then the next step is to look at the material objects. And the amount of material possessions a parent gives a child is far higher than the child ever gives back. So the parents don't owe the child; the child owes the parents.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:49 AM
Malden Capell Malden Capell is offline
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but if the OP is convinced life is such a burden and one to which consent is not given...why is he here?

Mods, I'm not saying this in a 'kill yourself, OP!' offensive sense, but pointing out (I hope) an observation.

But the whole consent thing is silly anyway.


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Old 05-23-2018, 03:01 AM
Tastes of Chocolate Tastes of Chocolate is offline
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You can't have it both ways. You can't say that your parents are responsible for you, in perpetuity, because you are their responsibility, AND say that you should also be afforded the status and privileges of an adult. Pick the one you want, and if you chose to require your parents eternally support you, be prepared to be treated like an 8 year old. Because THAT was your choice, even if being born wasn't.

Last edited by Tastes of Chocolate; 05-23-2018 at 03:02 AM.
  #50  
Old 05-23-2018, 04:31 AM
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Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
This shouldn't be legal. The way I see things, if you create a being, if you bring a person into this world, then you are responsible for that person's well-being for life, not just up until some arbitrary age ie '18.'
Bravo. That's YOUR opinion, which is not shared by the majority of humanity.

Quote:
A person should be able to live with their parents for as long as they wish, without paying a single dime towards room and board, or without even having to express a single shred of gratitude. Parents owe this, and more, to their offspring.
No, parents do not owe it to their kids to be slaves for the rest of their lives. Parents owe it to their kids to give them the skills and tools to become independent adults. That includes things like giving toddlers baths even if they don't like them, telling them to clean their rooms and, if an adult still living at home, contribute to the household like any other adult - either by helping to pay the bills or contributing some sort of labor like doing chores while the other adults are out working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
I don't see how making people take responsibility for what they've done is 'slavery.' And yes, people would probably think damn long and hard before bringing a person into this world if they knew they'd have to care of that person for the rest of their lives.
No, people would NOT "think damn long and hard" about it because people are wired to want sex and the rubbing of bits against each other feels so damn good, on top of which there's a nine month delay between the act and the consequences.

Also, "taking responsibility" for raising a person does not mean enabling bad behavior patterns - it means preparing them to live on their own, as independent entities. Because children usually out live parents and sooner or later the kids will have to take care of themselves without help from mama and poppa.
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