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Old 06-12-2018, 08:41 PM
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Incels, terrorism, and preventative measures

There's been conversation elsewhere about the Incel movement ("involuntary celibates"). Distinct from just any old sexually frustrated person, incels tend heavily toward the misogynistic and violent fantasist, with several having made the leap into straight-up terrorist murders of women.

Some questions that arose:

-In what ways does our culture treat women as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these "angry losers"?

-To what extent are these "angry losers" given a pass on a lot of their misogynistic rhetoric due to entrenched sexist attitudes in society?

- Why do we tend to refer to these men dismissively as mere "angry losers" who "suck" rather than as "terrorists"?

-There are many, many women who are socially awkward, who don't date, but somehow THEY don't espouse hatred and want to kill because of it. So why do so many men turn this into hatred and terrorism?

I'll post some thoughts later, but I thought this would be a good jumping-off point for discussion.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:42 PM
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"Many" men?
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:47 PM
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If this is truly a thing I'd say that women are less likely to do horrible things is because even an awkward male has testosterone and is more likely to have a strong ego even if they are a loser, maybe ego and testosterone are inseparable. A lot of people who commit horrible violence fantasize about not only being a villain but also about being in the hero role in their fantasies, perhaps there is a good way to channel that energy into creativity and socially altruistic behavior instead of violence and death.
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:22 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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It's just like the army: a bunch of power-hungry meatheads who reinforce each other's unjustifiable point of view by sharing it, and by egging each other on.
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
-There are many, many women who are socially awkward, who don't date, but somehow THEY don't espouse hatred and want to kill because of it. So why do so many men turn this into hatred and terrorism?
I suspect that a lot of it comes down to directing your criticism internally versus directing it externally: do you blame yourself for being socially awkward, or do you blame society for not providing you with a mate? From what I've read, a lot of "incels" don't look at themselves and say "OK, what I need to do to attract someone?" - which in my experience is to be a man that people would like to be with - but instead say "What does society need to do for someone to be attracted to me?".
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
-In what ways does our culture treat women as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these "angry losers"?
I don't think our culture really does this. Although, a young man who can't get laid is definitely a dangerous thing. That doesn't mean women are responsible for sleeping with the "angry losers".

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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
-To what extent are these "angry losers" given a pass on a lot of their misogynistic rhetoric due to entrenched sexist attitudes in society?
I don't think they get much of a pass, if they are espousing violence against women. Only perhaps in the deepest recesses of the incel dark web.


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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
- Why do we tend to refer to these men dismissively as mere "angry losers" who "suck" rather than as "terrorists"?
Well, the vast majority of them are simply angry losers. Not yet terrorists, until they've committed acts of terror.

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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
-There are many, many women who are socially awkward, who don't date, but somehow THEY don't espouse hatred and want to kill because of it. So why do so many men turn this into hatred and terrorism?
Great question. Probably because sexual prowess is highly valued by men and not women. This could be a combination of traditional gender attitudes and biological imperatives.

It does seem that women, even shy ones, are able to find mates easier than shy, loner men. Perhaps that is generalized, but most women can "get some" if they really want to. There's no shortage of men who will sleep with anyone that offers.
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:55 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Incels: false nostalgia for when men had the kind of power the incels want. In fact, while men did have a lot of power, that wasn't part of it.
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:57 PM
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It's just like the army: a bunch of power-hungry meatheads who reinforce each other's unjustifiable point of view by sharing it, and by egging each other on.
Ah yes. Just like the army. Awesome.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
-There are many, many women who are socially awkward, who don't date, but somehow THEY don't espouse hatred and want to kill because of it. So why do so many men turn this into hatred and terrorism?
Virgin shaming is a huge part, I think. Guys are still taught that their value has to do with whether or not they've had sex. While I've seen women discussing not being able to find a boyfriend and such, it's not portrayed as a flaw in them, or a value judgement on the women. The gender role in our society remains "women are the keepers of sex, and men have to earn the right to have it." And that belief starts the toxic cycle.

Hence, by those roles, the women are the reason they can't have sex and have value. Therefore they direct their anger towards them. And while that anger may not start as full on misogyny or violence, it can become that, particularly if people gather together and create echo chambers. It's also ripe for those who were already misogynists for other reasons to join in. And the "women are the oppressors" narrative allows for the violent to come in, because they fought back against the oppressors.

Granted, the male concept of always fighting back is also possibly an issue. Men are socialized to fight. They are socialized that, if people really hurt you, it is okay to attack them back. So, if these women are scheming against them, they think they have the right to attack back. In fact, fighting back is seen as a way to give them more value in their echo chamber community.

I think the only solution is to short circuit the concept before it starts this loop. We've got to actively stop the virgin shaming. Stop treating men like their value has anything to do with whether they've had sex. I can't see any other point where intervention is possible: once the emotional part of the brain is engaged, you can't be reasoned with.

The only other thing I could think of is trying to put those awkward women in contact with awkward men. But that's already been happening a lot since the whole nerd takeover movement, where being a nerd was no longer a shameful thing. I don't think it would be good at all to put any woman in contact with an incel until the incel has worked out their anger towards women.

Last edited by BigT; 06-12-2018 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:36 PM
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First up: LHoD, huge thanks for starting this.

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Originally Posted by DavidwithanR View Post
It's just like the army: a bunch of power-hungry meatheads who reinforce each other's unjustifiable point of view by sharing it, and by egging each other on.
I think this is an unfair characterization of the military. I can see why you might make that characterization of the Incel "movement", but I am hardly an expert. Do you have any cites to share about the bolded piece? I would be interested in learning more about the Incel culture. Is this an outgrowth of MRA groups, or something different?

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[...]Well, the vast majority of them are simply angry losers. Not yet terrorists, until they've committed acts of terror.
This is the crux of it, I think. Part 1, see above, how do they become part of a group that reinforces their belief that they are entitled to sex, and furthermore that they are being denied it (cock-blocked, as it were). The agency has moved from them to an outside party. Part 2, within that group, how does a fraction become violent?
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:41 PM
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Virgin shaming is a huge part, I think.
This is ridiculous. Virgin shaming has nothing to do with it--it's not like women who are body-shamed go on killing rampages over it.

I wonder, although I've no proof, whether it has more to do with sexually frustrated young men just being in aggregate a more volatile group, whether terrorist groups in general draw no so much from the poor or from the oppressed as they draw from the sexually frustrated.

In order to confront this problem head-on, it's crucial that we recognize that a dude who goes on a killing spree against women because of a reddit thread is functionally equivalent to a dude who goes on a killing spree against American tourists because of a shitty imam. The word "terrorist" needs to be used for this sort of ideologically-motivated attack on a class of people. The "angry loser" label may have some utility for identifying potential recruits and steering them somewhere less toxic; but when we use it after a murder, it obscures what's going on.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:42 PM
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1. Women are usually naturally less likely to express frustration via violence. It's biological.

2. When one sees "everyone" around you having something (a mate,) it's natural to think you should have it too. (Example: There was an IMHO thread a few weeks ago asking if "Amy," a hypothetical student, deserves a cupcake just because the teacher gives every other student a cupcake except Amy. Most Dopers replied that yes, Amy does deserve one.) Never mind that many people don't have mates - incels see having a mate as the norm, and not having a mate as abnormal, and want to be in the in crowd too.

3. Mocking, ignoring or criticizing someone's frustration does not make it go away. I cannot stress this enough. Mocking or berating incels for their feelings, thoughts or deeds is not going to make the problem go away, any more than Charlie Hebdo mocking Islam made Islamic terrorism go away.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:46 PM
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This is ridiculous. Virgin shaming has nothing to do with it--it's not like women who are body-shamed go on killing rampages over it.
On the contrary, virgin shaming has a HUGE part in it. BigT is spot on.

As for why women don't go on rampages - women and men are fundamentally different. It's much the same reason why most soldiers are men, why far more men own guns than women, why most school shooters and serial killers are men, why most Islamic terrorists are men, why 90% (or however many) of violent criminals are men, etc. Men are by and large the more naturally violent gender.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:46 PM
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3. Mocking, ignoring or criticizing someone's frustration does not make it go away. I cannot stress this enough. Mocking or berating incels for their feelings, thoughts or deeds is not going to make the problem go away, any more than Charlie Hebdo mocking Islam made Islamic terrorism go away.
I think this is *sort of* an important point, as long as we remember that those who mock, ignore, or criticize someone's frustration are responsible solely for their own shitty behavior, not for the behavior of the person they mock.

If someone commits murder, their feelings become a lot less important to me. Call them a loser and I won't lose much sleep. But if you call them a loser for not getting laid, there's some collateral damage, some folks you make feel shitty who never did nothin to deserve feeling shitty over. Way less terrible than murder, in case it needs saying, but still a crappy thing to do.
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On the contrary, virgin shaming has a HUGE part in it. BigT is spot on.
Okay, what do you base this on? Who murdered women who wouldn't have done so save for being mocked for being a virgin?

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 06-12-2018 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:04 PM
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3. Mocking, ignoring or criticizing someone's frustration does not make it go away. I cannot stress this enough. Mocking or berating incels for their feelings, thoughts or deeds is not going to make the problem go away
Once again I fear we may be having a definitional issue. Self-described Incels are NOT in my mind men who are simply sexually frustrated involuntary virgins. They are those that have specfically taken that extra step to embrace a violently misogynistic attitude/movement. They are either violent or have active sympathy for violence. The analogy to members or active supporters of al Qaeda works fine. Or in other words Incel* describes a specific and repugnant ideology, not simply the involuntarily celibate in general.

Are you saying one shouldn't berate the thoughts and deeds of terrorists or terrorist supporters? Because that is a sympathy bridge too far for me. Understand the origins, sympathize with the root frustrations - sure. Make the leap to not calling them out? Nuh uh.


*Props to monstro for suggesting we capitalize the word to reinforce this point.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 06-12-2018 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:16 PM
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This is ridiculous. Virgin shaming has nothing to do with it--it's not like women who are body-shamed go on killing rampages over it.
Because all things are the same? Women don't go on killing rampages as often as men about anything. I think virgin shaming is part of it, but not much, it's closer to camouflage than causation. Another cultural theme is that some incident makes people act crazy, someone is so angry over some perceived slight that they concoct an elaborate plan to seek revenge. I don't think there's as much similarity between the people in question and any part of their dogma. It's just the usual thing, what draws them together is their anger and the desire to hurt others because of their firmly held belief that it's always somebody else's fault. I wouldn't even know of the existence of these people except for this thread and one other here on the Dope, but I don't really need to, I'm sure they are working the same game as all the other nutbags, each one feeds the others anger, it's not something like their hatred of women that bind them, it's their desire to harm others, that's the thing that increases their dopamine levels.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:35 PM
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Everything I've been reading about incels says they've become misogynistic because they couldn't get women to go to bed with them. Is that the consensus? It seems to me misogynistic men who can't get women to go to bed with them (maybe for that very reason) become incels. They blame women because they already despise them. The rage and hatred come first.

No?
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness
-In what ways does our culture treat women as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these "angry losers"?
Perhaps men are made to look stupid by the smart women in some commercials and TV shows. It's fine IMHO, men have been pushing women around for eternity, so we get a (very) little of our own medicine.

If their self esteem is so low that they can't handle a little bit of poking fun, they have issues to start with. A quick heads up to these people - the world/life doesn't owe you sex or a life partner. You can ask for help on how to better socialize, overcome anxieties, and help to find a job. Glad to help. Not going to offer a class on how to score a supermodel though (which it seems like what these guys are upset about).

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-To what extent are these "angry losers" given a pass on a lot of their misogynistic rhetoric due to entrenched sexist attitudes in society?
Who is giving them a pass? Other 'Incels'?

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- Why do we tend to refer to these men dismissively as mere "angry losers" who "suck" rather than as "terrorists"?
I guess I don't know much about this movement. They are being violent? Not just the assholes that have been around for ever?

Quote:
-There are many, many women who are socially awkward, who don't date, but somehow THEY don't espouse hatred and want to kill because of it. So why do so many men turn this into hatred and terrorism?
Because those men are assholes and have a sense on entitlement. And power. And they are now losing the power to be assholes.

Groups like the white supremacists, nazis in general, and those that 'Have' and want to prevent others from prosperity have a bit in common. These so called 'incels' (and the others) see in the current political climate the one thing that they can now exploit. Being assholes. They can be assholes and demand that their so called needs must be met. They're morons, just like their 'leader'.

They're just more cockroaches that trump is prying out from under rocks.

Nope, life isn't fair. It was never meant to be. Not one of us hasn't had something that tries to block our way.

"Incel/s" Involuntarily Celibate. Almost everyone has been an 'Incel' at some point. That they actually came up with a name for it and it's some sort of movement is comical. I'm a 57 year old man, this has got to be one of the silliest thing I've ever heard of. "Incel". Uh hu. Might want to try a little introspection there bud. The rest of the people on the planet aren't here for you to exploit.

I probably shouldn't go on, but I will. I suffered from terrible shyness around the opposite sex until I was about 30. Then I managed to slowly fix it, start dating and did finally find my Wife that I have now been with for 20 years. It sucked all through those many years. But I knew it was MY problem.

Simple, if 'incels' (that still cracks me up) perform illegal acts, arrest them and put them through the justice system.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
This is ridiculous. Virgin shaming has nothing to do with it--it's not like women who are body-shamed go on killing rampages over it.

I wonder, although I've no proof, whether it has more to do with sexually frustrated young men just being in aggregate a more volatile group, whether terrorist groups in general draw no so much from the poor or from the oppressed as they draw from the sexually frustrated.

In order to confront this problem head-on, it's crucial that we recognize that a dude who goes on a killing spree against women because of a reddit thread is functionally equivalent to a dude who goes on a killing spree against American tourists because of a shitty imam. The word "terrorist" needs to be used for this sort of ideologically-motivated attack on a class of people. The "angry loser" label may have some utility for identifying potential recruits and steering them somewhere less toxic; but when we use it after a murder, it obscures what's going on.
Body shaming is not remotely the same concept. If you buy into it, then the outlet is already present. All you have to do is try to lose weight. And then, if you fail, you are much more likely to blame yourself, rather than someone else.

With virgin shaming, there is one outlet: try to get women to have sex with you. If you fail, it is much easier to blame the women. That makes them an easy target. That makes misogyny easier to take root.

Once even a little misogyny kicks in, then it's easy for any other misogynists to jump in. But there must be misogyny in the underlying idea first for this to happen. The misogynists have to see something in the concept that they like.

And misogyny, as we well know, has a tendency to lead to violence. Not in everyone, but it doesn't take everyone. Not when you have an echo chamber.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:37 AM
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Once again I fear we may be having a definitional issue. Self-described Incels are NOT in my mind men who are simply sexually frustrated involuntary virgins. They are those that have specfically taken that extra step to embrace a violently misogynistic attitude/movement. They are either violent or have active sympathy for violence. The analogy to members or active supporters of al Qaeda works fine. Or in other words Incel* describes a specific and repugnant ideology, not simply the involuntarily celibate in general.

Are you saying one shouldn't berate the thoughts and deeds of terrorists or terrorist supporters? Because that is a sympathy bridge too far for me. Understand the origins, sympathize with the root frustrations - sure. Make the leap to not calling them out? Nuh uh.
But they still are sexually frustrated involuntary virgins. You guys seem to be making some clean division that doesn't exist. Both violent and non-violent Incels hang out in the same places. Yes, they are all misogynists, but they are not all violent or even all support violence. That is where the analogy to Al Qaeda breaks down, since Al Qaeda is inherently a violent organization.

And calling someone out is not the same thing as berating them. Of course we can call out misogyny and terrorism. But it is also true that no one will listen to you if they think you hate them. The line isn't always obvious, but it exists.

That is actually the reason I am against the "angry loser" label. Have you ever been called a loser? I have. Was my reaction to try and become a better person? Hell no. My response was to get angry at them, and want to get back at them.

Even if you do treat them all as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, has calling terrorist losers ever worked? That's mocking. Has lecturing them at length for how bad they are ever done anything? That's berating. And, yeah, I argue neither is remotely helpful.

Hell, mocking and berating a frustrated person might be what allows them to snap and make the jump from non-violent to violent. It's not like violent people have a completely different emotion set than non-violent people, after all.

Last edited by BigT; 06-13-2018 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:39 AM
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Virgin shaming is a huge part, I think. Guys are still taught that their value has to do with whether or not they've had sex....
I may not be the right person to respond in this thread. But I never got any of that. Plenty of guy friends. Didn't have sex until way after high school. My guy friends and I just didn't talk about it. While we sometimes assumed, or wondered, it was never asked. And we where a rowdy bunch. An interesting high school I went to, the Jocks, the stoners and the 'brains' all hung out together.

I was born in 1960. So I suspect my friends and I might be a bit of an anomaly.

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Granted, the male concept of always fighting back is also possibly an issue. Men are socialized to fight. They are socialized that, if people really hurt you, it is okay to attack them back.
I did experience that.

I almost fought once. I'd always been one of the biggest guys in school, so I was never picked on. Except one time.

A little kid (I must have had 6"'s and 30lbs on him), started calling my mother names out of the blue. I didn't know who he was, or what the hell it was all about. (I'm pretty sure he just wanted to fight one of the biggest kids in school) I could have stomped him (I suppose). My first thought was 'what the hell is wrong with him'?

Later, I felt real, real, bad that I let him call my mother names (being a kid is very weird. It hurt horribly, I thought I did something wrong by walking away). Two days later, he was expelled from 7th grade for having a Colt 1911 .45 in his locker.

7th freaking grade. 1973.

I'm rather glad I walked away from that.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:17 AM
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There was a Reddit thread in which someone had done a survey of around 2,300 incels and a sizable number of them (around 40% or more) were minority-race.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:19 AM
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That is actually the reason I am against the "angry loser" label. Have you ever been called a loser? I have. Was my reaction to try and become a better person? Hell no. My response was to get angry at them, and want to get back at them.

Even if you do treat them all as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, has calling terrorist losers ever worked? That's mocking. Has lecturing them at length for how bad they are ever done anything? That's berating. And, yeah, I argue neither is remotely helpful.

Hell, mocking and berating a frustrated person might be what allows them to snap and make the jump from non-violent to violent. It's not like violent people have a completely different emotion set than non-violent people, after all.

This.

I have never once understood the logic of, "When people mock me, I get angry, but when I mock other people, it will make them docile and tamer."
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:54 AM
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I was reading an Incel forum and one of the thread was a poll about a passed out woman getting raped: would you stop the guy, would you do nothing, or wait your turn?

More than 80% of the (about 50) respondents said do nothing or join in.

One person said he'd take video and call the police- he was abused for that remark.

I want to believe that these guys are trolling, and maybe a lot of them are. One guy said that since she was a slut, after he finished, he might throw acid on her or cut her up. Another said he did see such a rape and just watched to "learn."

They viciously attack anyone that is seen as "not a real Incel"- in other words don't at least verbally embrace rape, violence and flat murder.

I don't know how much mocking they were subjected to before embracing the Incel community. They certainly relish being on the other side now.

Last edited by raventhief; 06-13-2018 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
There's been conversation elsewhere about the Incel movement ("involuntary celibates"). Distinct from just any old sexually frustrated person, incels tend heavily toward the misogynistic and violent fantasist, with several having made the leap into straight-up terrorist murders of women.

Some questions that arose:

-In what ways does our culture treat women as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these "angry losers"?
This is anecdotal but I haven’t seen women, outside of linked incel stuff, blamed for the emotional status of the so-called incel group. How much of these ideas are even in the general consciousness of society? It seems so fringe. But maybe that’s me.

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-To what extent are these "angry losers" given a pass on a lot of their misogynistic rhetoric due to entrenched sexist attitudes in society?
It seems misogynistic rants aren’t taken seriously. If anything, the ranter is considered like you said an “angry loser.” I don’t know if it’s a pass but it’s definitely not the same level of societal ostracism that lets say a racist rant would generate.

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- Why do we tend to refer to these men dismissively as mere "angry losers" who "suck" rather than as "terrorists"?
Until they plot or engage in terrorism it seems premature to label someone as such.

Quote:
-There are many, many women who are socially awkward, who don't date, but somehow THEY don't espouse hatred and want to kill because of it. So why do so many men turn this into hatred and terrorism?
Men and women are different. I know that’s considered a radical or old fashioned idea but men behave differently. Might even think differently. Blame it on the so-called environment or on genetics. I don’t care but I think it’s a bit of both.

And how much terrorism have these incels done? The only thing I’m aware of is that Canadian event.

Last edited by octopus; 06-13-2018 at 02:04 AM.
  #26  
Old 06-13-2018, 02:07 AM
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But they still are sexually frustrated involuntary virgins.
Life can be difficult, I didn't even get a warrantee.
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Originally Posted by BigT
You guys seem to be making some clean division that doesn't exist. Both violent and non-violent Incels hang out in the same places. Yes, they are all misogynists,
Are there clubs/bars deliberately full of sexually frustrated 'incels'. Like a 'we can't get sex club'? This seems somewhat counter productive.

All 'Involuntary Virgins' are misogynists? Huh? Perhaps the first step would be if they don't hang out together? And stop being misogynists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT
but they are not all violent or even all support violence. That is where the analogy to Al Qaeda breaks down, since Al Qaeda is inherently a violent organization.
Um. Never Mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT
That is actually the reason I am against the "angry loser" label. Have you ever been called a loser? I have.
I don't think I've ever been called a loser(except the times I called it to myself. Happens to everyone). But if I started an angry 'club', because I can't fix what I think I'm somehow entitled to, well...you get Incels. It's darn right silly.

And they started a club.

OK.

I'm involuntary bad at playing music.

I'm a IBAPM

I'm trying to fix it. I have horrible hearing that I don't blame on others. I may have some other qualities that may allow me to power through it. (Math, logic, and a bit of determination, I seek help and practice). Maybe someday I will put able to play a few songs. It's something that I would dearly love to be able to do. It means a lot to me. I don't blame others that are good at it.

And I'm surely not violent about it (would get expensive, and quite contrary to my goal).

I'm quite a liberal guy but 'incels', getting violent? Well that's gonna help a lot. What a combo! Everyone loves violent horny people.there are probably a few web sites for that
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:10 AM
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I want to believe that these guys are trolling, and maybe a lot of them are. One guy said that since she was a slut, after he finished, he might throw acid on her or cut her up. Another said he did see such a rape and just watched to "learn.”


Stuff like that and the gore sites does challenge my commitment to free speech. That’s pretty heinous to write and trolling or not it’s dangerous.
  #28  
Old 06-13-2018, 03:24 AM
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Not virgin shaming, but serial killer and notorious limpdick Andrei Chikatilo did kill a bunch of hookers that laughed at him for not being able to get a boner... Of course that was part of that whole Russia thing.
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  #29  
Old 06-13-2018, 04:35 AM
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I suspect that a lot of it comes down to directing your criticism internally versus directing it externally: do you blame yourself for being socially awkward, or do you blame society for not providing you with a mate? From what I've read, a lot of "incels" don't look at themselves and say "OK, what I need to do to attract someone?" - which in my experience is to be a man that people would like to be with - but instead say "What does society need to do for someone to be attracted to me?".
Men, in general (and I emphasize the qualifiers here) tend to be more likely to express anger outward. Women tend to express it inward. My guess is that it's a combination of innate tendencies and societal conditioning. That why it's mostly women who starve themselves to death or cut themselves, and it's mostly men who become spree killers. Of course, there are exceptions, plus a hefty dose of very miserable people who kill themselves. It's certainly not the whole answer.

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I don't think they get much of a pass, if they are espousing violence against women. Only perhaps in the deepest recesses of the incel dark web.
There are a definitely men who espouse violence towards women. In the interest of not getting too sidetracked, there are sub-cultures that espouse a man keeping a woman in her place that are OK with using violence to do that. That doesn't mean those sub-cultures condone murder, but violence against women is more common than I think you realize.

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Well, the vast majority of them are simply angry losers. Not yet terrorists, until they've committed acts of terror.
I think society would be better off if we could discourage angry young men from taking that final step to become terrorists.

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Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
It does seem that women, even shy ones, are able to find mates easier than shy, loner men. Perhaps that is generalized, but most women can "get some" if they really want to. There's no shortage of men who will sleep with anyone that offers.
I think there is some truth here. Men, in general, seem a lot less fussy about the conditions under which sex takes place.

I also think high standards is part of the incel problem - they don't just want a girl, they want a supermodel. They won't "settle" for a "fat chick" or someone who isn't super pretty or whatever - nevermind that the woman in question is also "settling" for someone less than ideal because these guys don't ever consider the other person's viewpoint. There is a distinct lack of empathy with these yahoos.

That's also some of stuff behind the notion of acid-attacks and ruining the beauty of a woman - since looks are what they mainly value they assume that a maimed woman would be a female incel and hated and scorned forever. It's behind the notion that if they rape another man's woman that man will reject that woman - no, that's not a given. Plenty of men have married women that were raped before or while they knew them. Plenty of women have less than ideal looks and secure a mate (as noted in the prior paragraph, it's probably easier for a less than ideal looking woman to get a mate than for a less than an ideal man).

Again, lack of empathy - they simply don't comprehend that other people value other things than they do.

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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
I think the only solution is to short circuit the concept before it starts this loop. We've got to actively stop the virgin shaming. Stop treating men like their value has anything to do with whether they've had sex. I can't see any other point where intervention is possible: once the emotional part of the brain is engaged, you can't be reasoned with.
While I don't lend this the weight you do I agree virgin shaming needs to end. For that matter, celibacy shaming needs to end. People need to be as free to say "no" to sex as to say "yes". People should not be mocked if they're between relationships or even just, for whatever reason, haven't had opportunities to have sex with other people. Too much emphasis on sex and "scoring" is not healthy for human beings. Yes, sex is important. It's not the only important thing.

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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
The only other thing I could think of is trying to put those awkward women in contact with awkward men.
I question if combining people with similar dysfunctions is really the best tactic here. It also seems to be edging back to putting the onus on women to "solve" a problem with a category of men, although I don't think that was your intention.

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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
I don't think it would be good at all to put any woman in contact with an incel until the incel has worked out their anger towards women.
^ This.

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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
If their self esteem is so low that they can't handle a little bit of poking fun, they have issues to start with. A quick heads up to these people - the world/life doesn't owe you sex or a life partner. You can ask for help on how to better socialize, overcome anxieties, and help to find a job. Glad to help. Not going to offer a class on how to score a supermodel though (which it seems like what these guys are upset about).
Your statement represents the thought process of what I'd call a healthy, sane man. The problem is, I don't think these guys fit that category.

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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
I guess I don't know much about this movement. They are being violent? Not just the assholes that have been around for ever?
Yes, some of these guys are violent.

Elliot Rodger killed six and injured fourteen

Other men associated with both the "can't get laid" crowd and violence include Chris Harper-Mercer, Rusty Houser, Seung-Hui Cho, and a little digging can uncover more. The death tolls vary, but all them I just name killed at least a couple people.

I don't think lack of sex is the only explanation for their actions - after all, most guys who aren't getting laid don't get violent. Frustrated, sure, but not violent. I think there's more at work here than just that, but sexual frustration seems to be a part of these guys' dysfunction.

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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
"Incel/s" Involuntarily Celibate. Almost everyone has been an 'Incel' at some point. That they actually came up with a name for it and it's some sort of movement is comical. I'm a 57 year old man, this has got to be one of the silliest thing I've ever heard of. "Incel". Uh hu. Might want to try a little introspection there bud. The rest of the people on the planet aren't here for you to exploit.
Again - lack of empathy. You understand on a gut level that other people are people such as yourself and no more compelled to serve you than you are compelled to serve them. Also, you understand that it's actually normal for human beings to have time periods during which they aren't having sex with other people. Shaming people for not having sex is like shaming them for being constipated - it happens. Or rather, "it" doesn't happen for awhile. If it makes you uncomfortable there are steps you can take to remedy the situation, although none of them are guaranteed to work instantly.

That seems a key difference between a guy like yourself and an incel - you have empathy. They don't. They're emotionally stuck on the toddler level of "I WANT! GIMME!" That's annoying enough in a toddler (and toddlers are known to hit people when they don't get what they want) but it's sad and pathetic in a grown man.

The other thing is that they seem completely unwilling to take any responsibility for their problems. No, not everything is the fault of the individual but emotionally mature human beings - such as yourself - can self-reflect and ask themselves "am I contributing anything to this probelm?" and take steps to fix their own flaws. These guys can't seem to to that - they seem convinced they're perfect and everyone else is the problem.

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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
Simple, if 'incels' (that still cracks me up) perform illegal acts, arrest them and put them through the justice system.
Yeah, but I'd think it grand if we could somehow intervene BEFORE they kill someone.
  #30  
Old 06-13-2018, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
If their self esteem is so low that they can't handle a little bit of poking fun, they have issues to start with. A quick heads up to these people - the world/life doesn't owe you sex or a life partner. You can ask for help on how to better socialize, overcome anxieties, and help to find a job. Glad to help. Not going to offer a class on how to score a supermodel though (which it seems like what these guys are upset about).
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Your statement represents the thought process of what I'd call a healthy, sane man. The problem is, I don't think these guys fit that category.
I object to the "if they can't handle a little bit of poking fun" part. That's the tactic of a bully. If someone is upset by a joke made at their expense, or offended by an unflattering portrayal in the media, the empathetic response is not "what's the matter, can't you take a joke?"
  #31  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:27 AM
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I've been following the incel movement for some years through Dave Futrelle's blog "We Hunted the Mammoth". The thing that strikes me is that incels see women as trophies, objects to win, and not as real human beings with their own aspirations. There have been frequent calls to take away a woman's right to vote, to work, and to choose their own mate. And that's just the start. Redistribution of sex has been called for in incel circles long before it hit the mainstream with https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/o...tribution.html. However, the incels are not looking any further than redistributing actual women and not sex robots.
  #32  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:34 AM
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Mocking or berating incels for their feelings, thoughts or deeds is not going to make the problem go away, any more than Charlie Hebdo mocking Islam made Islamic terrorism go away.
This metaphor works doubly well. Folks who are focusing so heavily on "STOP THE VIRGIN-SHAMING" are the equivalent of folks who respond to the 2015 terror attacks in France by blaming Charlie Hebdo.

NO.

Virgin-shaming is no more responsible for Incel terrorism than Hebdo was responsible for ISIS terrorism. The murderers are responsible for their own actions, full stop; and while Hebdo and virgin-shamers might be assholes, it's really, really problematic to respond to murders by scolding mere assholes.

***


BigT, you object to the comparison between Incel and Al Qaeda. You're wrong. Mostly.

The way in which the comparison falls apart is that Incel is (AFAICT vastly less funded and vastly less hierarchical and vastly less organized in general than Al Qaeda (or ISIS or Al Shabob or the Klan or Atomwaffen etc etc.)

But that's not what I was talking about. The comparison holds true in that for both terrorist groups, the idiots who stand on the sidelines and cheer is much, much bigger than the terrorists who actually commit murder or other violence. And the ones who take that final step of committing violence are egged on by their online and offline supporters, who create a community in which such violence is normalized and celebrated.

There are no innocent members of an Incel community (which is another way the analogy falls apart--an Al Qaeda madrasah may have kids sent there by parents and may therefore have innocent members). The folks who never move beyond posting misogynistic atrocities are crucial to the development of the folks who do.
  #33  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:35 AM
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Incels are partly a consequence of the Pick-Up Artist phenomenon not getting laughed out of town the moment Mystery first raised his furry-hatted peacocking head. The "movement" got quite a lot of press, both good and bad, and fed the whole mentality we see now.

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There was a Reddit thread in which someone had done a survey of around 2,300 incels and a sizable number of them (around 40% or more) were minority-race.
So, about the same as in the general population, then...
And nothing precludes someone being both minority and racist - I've seen some of the foulest crap spewed by Indian incels about black men, for instance. I'd be interested in a survey about what percentage of that "minority-race" is from one of India or China, given their demographics.
  #34  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:45 AM
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Doesn't it seem that an incel, one layer under the raging misogyny, is a hurt little boy with zero self-esteem? Who has found an internet nest of similar others who together make up a satisfying narrative which comfortably excludes ever confronting this truly unpleasant fact?

Blaming others for your failures and griefs is something many men seem to do with facility. Deciding that violence is the cure is even more skewed to the masculine side.

What's to be done about these frustrated (and from what I can tell, deservedly so) males? I guess castration isn't going to make a comeback any time soon ...
Incels are one of the ugliest faces of misogyny. Since empathy is the only cure I can see, and that's the last thing they would choose themselves, I don't feel a lot of hope.
  #35  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:50 AM
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It seems to me misogynistic men who can't get women to go to bed with them (maybe for that very reason) become incels. They blame women because they already despise them. The rage and hatred come first.

No?
To a large extent, Yes. They can't get laid because they are angry, and they are angry because they can't get laid. The Incel movement comes about because you can access the Internet from your basement. So you can establish contact with other angry losers who can't get laid, and talk each other into thinking it is women's fault that you are an angry loser who can't get laid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness
-In what ways does our culture treat women as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these "angry losers"?
I am not aware of many ways. Their assertions that they deserve sex with a supermodel is met AFAICT with scorn and derision, at least outside of other incels. "Virgin shaming" is almost the opposite - they are mocked for not getting laid. Women aren't mocked for not screwing them.
Quote:
-To what extent are these "angry losers" given a pass on a lot of their misogynistic rhetoric due to entrenched sexist attitudes in society?
Again, IMO not very much. I don't see that they are given a pass very much at all - people tend to be either derisive towards or repulsed by their rhetoric. I would say they get about as much of a pass as any other angry loser posting from his basement. Society doesn't say "well, he's got a point - women should feel obligated to seek you out". It says "playing WoW all night and complaining that women find you creepy isn't going to get you laid - try getting out of the house and not being such a creeper once in a while".
Quote:
- Why do we tend to refer to these men dismissively as mere "angry losers" who "suck" rather than as "terrorists"?
Because they haven't killed anyone yet, and most of them are too socially disorganized to leave the house, let alone commit terrorism.

Society saying "we gotta get you laid so you don't shoot anybody" is enabling.

Regards,
Shodan
  #36  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:54 AM
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I object to the "if they can't handle a little bit of poking fun" part. That's the tactic of a bully. If someone is upset by a joke made at their expense, or offended by an unflattering portrayal in the media, the empathetic response is not "what's the matter, can't you take a joke?"
I agree that I worded that poorly, and may have to re-think that. Really, as a left leaning moderate, I do have sympathy for all. I do think that they should get help before becoming violent. But the very concept of becoming violent because you can't find a girlfriend is totally foreign to me. It's so self defeating I just don't get it. And trust me, I've been there. I was terribly awkward and shy as a young man. I worked on it and fixed it.

People are born with horrible deformities and diseases. Born into abject poverty or abusive homes. But 'incels' are a thing? Some sort of movement? At that point, my sympathy runs a bit thin. Perhaps because I've been there. For a longer time than most.

… Interesting, this board is now changing a double space to a single space after a period. Makes it harder to read IMHO.
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  #37  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:58 AM
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What's to be done about these frustrated (and from what I can tell, deservedly so) males? I guess castration isn't going to make a comeback any time soon ...
Incels are one of the ugliest faces of misogyny. Since empathy is the only cure I can see, and that's the last thing they would choose themselves, I don't feel a lot of hope.
Years ago I listened to an audiobook that talked about a three-level response to Al Qaeda and their ilk. Modifying that for Incels, I'd describe three approachs:

1) Police Action. For the folks who are making plans for violence, that's where we need to go; and we need to treat these fuckers the same as we'd treat any other terrorists. High level federal law enforcement needs to step up their game. This addresses the illness most directly, and requires targeting the fewest people.
2) Network disruption. For the communities where Incels hang out, they need to not be comfortable places. Work to make these communities unavailable as long as they condone violent misogynistic fantasies. Speak up within them; don't let those fantasies become normalized. This is a teamwork effort between law enforcement and private citizens, including folks who are active online and folks who are lowercase incels but not misogynistic and folks who manage online communities. This addresses a much larger group, and aims to prevent Incel community members from moving into the first category.
3) Prevention. This is the largest effort. Sex Ed needs to add hugely to its consent component, making it clear that sexual health and safety necessitates making sure that everyone involved in a sexual encounter wants to be there. This is the rape culture piece, wherein we (primarily guys, since guys are the ones who are becoming Incels, and due to their fucked-up ideology they're likelier to listen to other guys) talk a lot about how sexual attractiveness is something you DO, rather than something you're OWED, and how not everyone can manage it any more than everyone can manage to play basketball well, but that doesn't mean you murder the Lakers. There's a shitload of work to do here, with hundreds of millions of young dudes across the world. And yes, knocking it off with virgin shaming is one tiny component of this work, but far from the primary component. The aim here is to prevent young, sexually frustrated dudes from moving into the second category.
  #38  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:03 AM
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I am not aware of many ways. Their assertions that they deserve sex with a supermodel is met AFAICT with scorn and derision, at least outside of other incels. "Virgin shaming" is almost the opposite - they are mocked for not getting laid. Women aren't mocked for not screwing them.
So, the questions in the OP aren't really mine, or how I'd phrase them anyway--I linked to the earlier conversation whence I copied them. (I was in a hurry last night when I wrote that OP, my wife was waiting for me to finish the post so we could watch Legion; I probably should've added more direct citation). I just wanted to clarify that for folks.

However, there's something interesting here.

The question Kimstu asked was,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu
In what ways does our culture treat women as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these "angry losers"?
You say that "virgin shaming" is the opposite. But look at this thread! When confronted with the crimes of these "angry losers," look how many people treat "virgin shamers" as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these angry losers.

Are virgin shamers primarily women? I dunno, never having encountered them even in my loneliest and chastest days. But if they are, then in this thread there are people holding women responsible for the emotional status of Incel jerks.
  #39  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness
about how sexual attractiveness is something you DO, rather than something you're OWED
So true. It's almost like 'incels' think everyone but them is winning the lottery, and where's their cut? And attractiveness comes in many, many forms. It's not just physical features.

Every couple is different, and different from each other. A woman may be rich, and the guy handsome. A guy may be very funny and look like a fence post, the woman attractive and dull. And while I think, most couples are somewhat or mostly similar, all long time successful couples gain something from the strength of their partner in an area that they may be lacking.

For instance, my Wife is a great planner. I'm a task master. It works.
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  #40  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:35 AM
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...Women don't go on killing rampages as often as men about anything...
I said the same thing in the Pit thread when this subject came up. Unless I'm misunderstanding the question in the OP, why is it a mystery why this particular issue causes more men than women to resort to violence? Men are more violent than women across the board. We see this in most all primate species, and we're not special in that regard. Socialization might have some impact on this, but the most parsimonious explanation is that there is a biological root that is the main cause.
  #41  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
The question Kimstu asked was,
You say that "virgin shaming" is the opposite. But look at this thread! When confronted with the crimes of these "angry losers," look how many people treat "virgin shamers" as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these angry losers.

Are virgin shamers primarily women? I dunno, never having encountered them even in my loneliest and chastest days. But if they are, then in this thread there are people holding women responsible for the emotional status of Incel jerks.
It's a self-defined group. Their misogyny co-exists with their racism, anti-Semiticism, conspiracy theories, and self-hate, any one visit will show that.

A lot of them claim to be autistic. It's hard to miss that, they bring the subject up all the time and it's usually included when they list their own faults. They call each other “autists” to be insulting.

This kind of being an unhappy celibate requires a lot of ancillary stupidity and hatred, which attracts condemnation, which they process as people hating on them because they don't have sex. I think it's important to note all of this, because we don't necessarily have to take their word that the virgin shaming they experience is actual virgin shaming.
  #42  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:39 AM
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I said the same thing in the Pit thread when this subject came up. Unless I'm misunderstanding the question in the OP, why is it a mystery why this particular issue causes more men than women to resort to violence?
If you look at other groups--ISIS killers, Neo-Nazi gangs, crazy militia groups, violent nineteenth-century anarchists, Communist revolutionaries--they're all overwhelmingly male.

But not exclusively male.

In all those groups, you'll find *some* women wielding the gun, or throwing the dynamite, or whatever the weapon of choice is.

Incels are distinct because their murderers are exclusively men.

I still don't think it's a mystery, though. They're not killers because they're sexually frustrated. They're killers because their sexual frustration has glommed on to a specific ideology.

Asking why there aren't female Incel killers is like asking why there aren't black Klan killers.
  #43  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
The question Kimstu asked was,
You say that "virgin shaming" is the opposite. But look at this thread! When confronted with the crimes of these "angry losers," look how many people treat "virgin shamers" as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these angry losers.

Are virgin shamers primarily women? I dunno, never having encountered them even in my loneliest and chastest days. But if they are, then in this thread there are people holding women responsible for the emotional status of Incel jerks.
I don't see how virgin shaming is blaming anything on women. They are blaming the incels, not women.

"You're twenty-five and you've never had sex? Loser!" is not at all like "You're twenty-five and you've never had sex? Women are bad!"

Regards,
Shodan
  #44  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:45 AM
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I don't see how virgin shaming is blaming anything on women. They are blaming the incels, not women.
I'm not saying that virgin shamers are blaming anything on women. I'm saying that PEOPLE THAT BLAME VIRGIN SHAMERS are perhaps blaming women.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 06-13-2018 at 09:46 AM.
  #45  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:47 AM
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Asking why there aren't female Incel killers is like asking why there aren't black Klan killers.
That's not really grasping the point.

First of all, how long has this "incel" movement been going on? Exactly how many men have killed as members of the movement? There is no reason to think that some small number of women might be motivated to kill because of being rejected by men. I'm sure some already have. The fact that they aren't members of the current male-oriented movement or haven't formed their own, similar, movement yet isn't really relevant. Give it time.

Last edited by John Mace; 06-13-2018 at 09:48 AM.
  #46  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
That's not really grasping the point.

First of all, how long has this "incel" movement been going on? Exactly how many men have killed as members of the movement? There is no reason to think that some small number of women might be motivated to kill because of being rejected by men. I'm sure some already have. The fact that they aren't members of the current male-oriented movement or haven't formed their own, similar, movement yet isn't really relevant. Give it time.
While there are women in every other terrorist movement I can think of, there are precious few terrorist organizations/movements *started* by women. I find it highly unlikely that some women, rejected from Incel shittiness by virtue of their gender, are gonna start their own Incel movement and go out and kill.

Sure, some women have committed murder in response to rejection, I'm sure. I've seen no evidence that any woman has ever done so as part of a movement that encourages violence against men, and as a terroristic action intended to sow terror among men in general. Can you cite any counterexamples?
  #47  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:57 AM
Jane Elliot Jane Elliot is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
I don't see how virgin shaming is blaming anything on women. They are blaming the incels, not women.

"You're twenty-five and you've never had sex? Loser!" is not at all like "You're twenty-five and you've never had sex? Women are bad!"
That's not how women are blamed. Women are blamed when people say "Come on, give him a chance", or "Why not go out on a date with him, just once?" or "Golden State killer motivated by breakup with ex-fiancee". How about we turn that around to "Woman listens to her gut and refuses to go out with a sociopath".
  #48  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:05 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post

Blaming others for your failures and griefs is something many men seem to do with facility. Deciding that violence is the cure is even more skewed to the masculine side.
It is their right....particularly white and Asian men. And its a woman's responsibility to keep the peace. We teach it to them. In preschool, if a boy wants a toy a girl is playing with, he takes it. If she cries, she is told she needs to "share." If its two boys, he's told "Bobby was playing with that." In middle school if a girl comes to school with her shoulders exposed - she is sent home - her shoulders are "too distracting" for the boys and they can't concentrate.

I've had multiple run ins over my daughter....some boy doesn't treat her well (her cousins, the son of a friend, a classmate) and I say she doesn't need to play with them. Then she and I get told she is being "mean." (You should see the look on a mom's face when I say "no means no and your son needs to learn to respect that even if he is just six). In high school, a kid was horsing around and came down on her foot. When she showed up after the weekend, it was in a cast and she said "its broken" He looked at her. She said "you could say you are sorry." She got reprimanded by his mother for making him feel bad about not apologizing (which he never did) - that's some broken entitled shit.

(Black men and boys will get blamed for everything - and are angry because they see the pass being given to other boys for being boys.)
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  #49  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:14 AM
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wonky wonky is offline
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Years ago I listened to an audiobook that talked about a three-level response to Al Qaeda and their ilk. Modifying that for Incels, I'd describe three approachs:

1) Police Action. For the folks who are making plans for violence, that's where we need to go; and we need to treat these fuckers the same as we'd treat any other terrorists. High level federal law enforcement needs to step up their game. This addresses the illness most directly, and requires targeting the fewest people.
2) Network disruption. For the communities where Incels hang out, they need to not be comfortable places. Work to make these communities unavailable as long as they condone violent misogynistic fantasies. Speak up within them; don't let those fantasies become normalized. This is a teamwork effort between law enforcement and private citizens, including folks who are active online and folks who are lowercase incels but not misogynistic and folks who manage online communities. This addresses a much larger group, and aims to prevent Incel community members from moving into the first category.
3) Prevention. This is the largest effort. Sex Ed needs to add hugely to its consent component, making it clear that sexual health and safety necessitates making sure that everyone involved in a sexual encounter wants to be there. This is the rape culture piece, wherein we (primarily guys, since guys are the ones who are becoming Incels, and due to their fucked-up ideology they're likelier to listen to other guys) talk a lot about how sexual attractiveness is something you DO, rather than something you're OWED, and how not everyone can manage it any more than everyone can manage to play basketball well, but that doesn't mean you murder the Lakers. There's a shitload of work to do here, with hundreds of millions of young dudes across the world. And yes, knocking it off with virgin shaming is one tiny component of this work, but far from the primary component. The aim here is to prevent young, sexually frustrated dudes from moving into the second category.
The "prevention" aspect of this goes deeper, I think, than sex. We know that there are sexually frustrated people who do not turn their anger out and attack others. And we know that those who turn their anger out and attack others are not necessarily sexually frustrated. So is there an even more fundamental problem and the sexual frustration is just a symptom? I think so.

Research into terrorism shows that social isolation plays a huge role. Those who are socially isolated are more vulnerable to directed outside influences (someone luring them into joining cult-ish groups) and also to just non-directed societal messages. These folks are more prone to radicalization of all sorts.

Social isolation also causes or is closely correlated with significant physical and mental health issues, including early death and suicide, even for those who aren't radicalized. Loneliness, isolation, lack of emotional and social supports, these things are big problems and they are growing.

And I do think that virgin shaming as a nasty societal gotcha can play a role. On the internet, in particular, we often link "loser" and "lack of social skills" and attack people who are irritating as being virgins, lacking girlfriends, having small penises, or otherwise lacking sexual prowess. I don't think this is harmless. I think this pretty explicitly links sexual experience with not being "a loser."

People hear and are influenced by society's messages.
  #50  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:35 AM
Robot Arm Robot Arm is offline
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
I'm not saying that virgin shamers are blaming anything on women. I'm saying that PEOPLE THAT BLAME VIRGIN SHAMERS are perhaps blaming women.
Even if all virgin-shamers are women (and I'm sure they're not), criticizing those who do it is not the same as blaming women. Condemning the action, and those who choose to engage in it, is not the same as blaming a whole gender.
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