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Old 06-15-2018, 04:11 PM
Jim B. Jim B. is offline
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What If Trump Doesn't Leave?

A lot of Americans are woefully uninformed. It's not their fault. It's just the truth.

Anyway, I heard something interesting on Real Time with Bill Maher (I get some of my best information that way). 52% of Republicans say they would support postponing the next presidential election, due to voter fraud.

I know President Trump also says he admires dictatorships. What if he just declares himself dictator for life?

I know to do that, he would need support of other people. He couldn't just do it alone.

So I guess I have two questions: Will he do it? And will he get enough support to get away with it? And perhaps thirdly: Will there then be any way to get him out of power?

There is a touching story of George Washington resigning his commission, after the American Revolution, when they could have declared him King. In the USA, we have had a peaceful transference of power for over 200 years. Could that all change now?

Thank you to all who reply

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Last edited by Jim B.; 06-15-2018 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:19 PM
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I would immediately stop working and begin protesting, as loudly and forcefully as possible, that this was unacceptable. I would urge my fellow citizens to bring this country to a standstill until the situation was properly resolved. I would not stop until the situation was properly resolved. I would escalate tactics in necessary.

ETA: If a situation like the OP describes comes to pass, I will consider that a revolution/uprising is taking place and I will act accordingly to wrest control of this country back from those who are acting unlawfully.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 06-15-2018 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:40 PM
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Why should Republicans want to cancel the election due to voter fraud? It would be simpler for them to win the election due to voter fraud.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:46 PM
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Why should Republicans want to cancel the election due to voter fraud? It would be simpler for them to win the election due to voter fraud.
It's a back-up plan.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:49 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
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No one is more offended and disgusted by Trump and his enablers than I am, but even I don't think he'd refuse to leave office when his term is up. I've been wrong before, but surely this would be too much even for Ryan and McConnell. Right? Please tell me I'm right.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:49 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
Anyway, I heard something interesting on Real Time with Bill Maher (I get some of my best information that way).
Also, a large amount of bullshit. For instance -
Quote:
52% of Republicans say they would support postponing the next presidential election, due to voter fraud.
No, they don't.
Quote:
So I guess I have two questions: Will he do it?
No, he won't.
Quote:
And will he get enough support to get away with it?
No, he won't.
Quote:
And perhaps thirdly: Will there then be any way to get him out of power?
Not applicable because of the first two answers.
Quote:
There is a touching story of George Washington resigning his commission, after the American Revolution, when they could have declared him King. In the USA, we have had a peaceful transference of power for over 200 years. Could that all change now?
No, it won't.

Regards,
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:50 PM
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Calling off elections is not something you protest. Calling off elections is something that you go to war over.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:51 PM
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Will he do it? No. The end.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:53 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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Saw this question being asked on these boards about Clinton.

Saw this question being asked on these boards about Bush Jr.

Saw this question being asked on these boards about Obama.

Guess we're right on schedule.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:59 PM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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No, he won't.
If only there was a poll that said 52% of Republicans would support "What if both Donald Trump and Republicans in Congress were to say that the 2020 presidential election should be postponed until the country can make sure that only eligible American citizens can vote?"

I agree with everything beyond the first couple points. He wouldn't get away with it, though I'd wager the idea has been floated in the Oval Office, given the other horrendous things that have leaked out of there.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:05 PM
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Saw this question being asked on these boards about Clinton.

Saw this question being asked on these boards about Bush Jr.

Saw this question being asked on these boards about Obama.

Guess we're right on schedule.
Yup, next up is martial law speculation. And, of course, Clinton was going to use the Y2K bug to stay in office or call off the 2000 Election.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:08 PM
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Also, a large amount of bullshit. For instance -No, they don't.
WaPo
Quote:
Nearly half of Republicans (47 percent) believe that Trump won the popular vote, which is similar to this finding. Larger fractions believe that millions of illegal immigrants voted (68 percent) and that voter fraud happens somewhat or very often (73 percent). Again, this is similar to previous polls.

Moreover, 52 percent said that they would support postponing the 2020 election, and 56 percent said they would do so if both Trump and Republicans in Congress proposed this.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:10 PM
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Especially since he can't call off elections. It isn't his call. There are no federally-run elections - only a bunch of State/Territory/DC elections that all occur on the same day. trump can no longer postpone California's elections than he can fly to the moon by flapping his arms. On top of that, the people in charge of accepting the results of elections for federal office are members of the Legislative Branch, not the Executive. So he can't mess with it that way either.

Really, people. Were you all asleep in American Government class in high school?
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:11 PM
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Question for those who think that stalling/cancelling elections would be justification for war - would you also consider going to war if a government went forward with elections while knowing that the election was rigged (perhaps though illegal votes...)?
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:21 PM
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Question for those who think that stalling/cancelling elections would be justification for war - would you also consider going to war if a government went forward with elections while knowing that the election was rigged (perhaps though illegal votes...)?
That is comparing apples to oranges, IMO. It is easy to know if the elections were canceled: they don't happen or aren't scheduled. It is difficult to know that an election is being rigged.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:24 PM
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If such a scenario ever happened, it might provide a good reason to retain the 2nd Amendment.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:29 PM
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That is comparing apples to oranges, IMO. It is easy to know if the elections were canceled: they don't happen or aren't scheduled. It is difficult to know that an election is being rigged.
Didn't you see 20,000 buses heading into California in Novemver 2016 with unregistered voters?
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:39 PM
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That is comparing apples to oranges, IMO. It is easy to know if the elections were canceled: they don't happen or aren't scheduled. It is difficult to know that an election is being rigged.
My vague and blurry point was that if you think that cancelling elections is fighting words, you could very easily find people on the opposite side that would see efforts to have the election as fighting words. It could get lively.

As a person who doesn't have a bunker full of guns and a desire to murder, I'd be hunkering down.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:50 PM
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Didn't you see 20,000 buses heading into California in Novemver 2016 with unregistered voters?
They didn't head into California, they were already parked inside the abandoned Walmarts.
  #20  
Old 06-15-2018, 05:56 PM
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My vague and blurry point was that if you think that cancelling elections is fighting words, you could very easily find people on the opposite side that would see efforts to have the election as fighting words. It could get lively.
I'll take my chances that far fewer people will be in a fighting mood over things they can't prove or even provide evidence of.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:56 PM
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They didn't head into California, they were already parked inside the abandoned Walmarts.
Along with a million body bags and 10 million "Martial Law" signs. I mean "Ley Marcial" signs.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:57 PM
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I'll take my chances that far fewer people will be in a fighting mood over things they can't prove or even provide evidence of.
What America are you in?

Last edited by begbert2; 06-15-2018 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:02 PM
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Especially since he can't call off elections. It isn't his call. There are no federally-run elections - only a bunch of State/Territory/DC elections that all occur on the same day. trump can no longer postpone California's elections than he can fly to the moon by flapping his arms. On top of that, the people in charge of accepting the results of elections for federal office are members of the Legislative Branch, not the Executive. So he can't mess with it that way either.
If we explore the hypothetical a little further, hard Trump states might cooperate and cancel elections, but blue and purple states probaby wouldn't. The result would be an even more overwhelming landslide against Trump, because his base self excluded. Yeah, they don't know how elections work.

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Old 06-15-2018, 07:19 PM
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If such a scenario ever happened, it might provide a good reason to retain the 2nd Amendment.
I agree, but not because I think it would help me protect myself against some tyrannical Trump dictatorship - rather, from the insane levels of civil unrest that would result.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:25 PM
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Will he do it? No. The end.
Do what? Cancel the election, or voluntarily leave the White House?

Should he be impeached, I personally think he'd commit suicide rather than leave on his own. I also seem to be the only person who thinks so, and no, I don't want that to happen either.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:26 PM
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Good grief, what a question. I neve thought I would see the SDMB reminding me of some of my relatives' Facebook rantings, i.e., "Obama will not leave office he will become a dictator" "Obama gonna cancel the election" blah blah blah.

I do worry a little about the way this country is going with regard to changing the guard. You never used to hear about people wanting to lock up the members of the outgoing regime or, for that matter, the opponents they lost to. What are we, some banana republic? Throwing the people you just defeated in jail (or worse) is one of the hallmarks of a shithole country.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:37 PM
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Good grief, what a question. I neve thought I would see the SDMB reminding me of some of my relatives' Facebook rantings, i.e., "Obama will not leave office he will become a dictator" "Obama gonna cancel the election" blah blah blah.

I do worry a little about the way this country is going with regard to changing the guard. You never used to hear about people wanting to lock up the members of the outgoing regime or, for that matter, the opponents they lost to. What are we, some banana republic? Throwing the people you just defeated in jail (or worse) is one of the hallmarks of a shithole country.
This would be more encouraging if Trump didn't openly admire and express the desire to emulate dictators in charge of banana republics.

That said, I don't think for one second that he'd get anyone, even republicans, to back him in any attempt to cancel elections or squat in the white house past his ousting. So we might see some tweets from the twit on the subject, but nothing past that.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:43 PM
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Saw this question being asked on these boards about Clinton.

Saw this question being asked on these boards about Bush Jr.

Saw this question being asked on these boards about Obama.

Guess we're right on schedule.
We're ahead of schedule. People usually wait until a President's second term to start speculating he'll seize power and cancel elections.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:46 PM
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We're ahead of schedule. People usually wait until a President's second term to start speculating he'll seize power and cancel elections.
There's no credible expectation that Trump would last into a second term via non-criminal means, so if we're going to speculate that he will attempt criminal means, we have to get in on it early!
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:48 PM
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Especially since he can't call off elections. It isn't his call. There are no federally-run elections - only a bunch of State/Territory/DC elections that all occur on the same day. trump can no longer postpone California's elections than he can fly to the moon by flapping his arms. On top of that, the people in charge of accepting the results of elections for federal office are members of the Legislative Branch, not the Executive. So he can't mess with it that way either.

Really, people. Were you all asleep in American Government class in high school?
I don't think Trump would do this. But if he tried, this is a weak counter-argument. If a President is willing to throw out the Constitution and declare himself President-for-Life, do you really think he's going to care about his action also being a violation of state laws?
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:50 PM
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There's no credible expectation that Trump would last into a second term via non-criminal means, so if we're going to speculate that he will attempt criminal means, we have to get in on it early!
Credible expectations left the American political system in the 2016 election. I didn't think it was possible that Trump would win the election the first time. I was wrong. So I won't declare it's impossible that he'll get re-elected.
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:00 PM
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I don't think Trump would do this. But if he tried, this is a weak counter-argument. If a President is willing to throw out the Constitution and declare himself President-for-Life, do you really think he's going to care about his action also being a violation of state laws?
Yes, and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. There is a big difference between a naked power-grab for dictatorship and postponing elections. Yes, they have the same end goal, but too many politicians owe their positions to at least the semblance of popular support and the will of the people. The state elections would take place on time, the results would be known, and if the orange shit-gibbon refused to leave (or declared himself Generalissimo-For-Life) there would be military movements made to remove him, and they would be supported by the majority of Congress. Right now the Republicans are content to let him be him, because it plays to their ends. But few of them would be willing to see their personal power stripped away by such a coup. That would upset too many apple carts. Too many capitalists would lose too much money. Russia doesn't have enough money to piss off the .01%.

Last edited by silenus; 06-15-2018 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:03 PM
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America has propped up both right-wing and left-wing (communist) dictatorships around the world for the past century, we just didn't cozy up to them openly the way Trump appears to be doing...but we did give them money, support, negotiated with them, and generally did not shy away from dealing with them as legitimate entities. So I think people should perhaps not act as if this situation is really all that unique. The only thing unique now is that there's MORE transparancy than before....not due to deliberate efforts by the government to provide the same, but by the advances in communication technology and porousness of classified information.
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:21 PM
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Yes, and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. There is a big difference between a naked power-grab for dictatorship and postponing elections. Yes, they have the same end goal, but too many politicians owe their positions to at least the semblance of popular support and the will of the people. The state elections would take place on time, the results would be known, and if the orange shit-gibbon refused to leave (or declared himself Generalissimo-For-Life) there would be military movements made to remove him, and they would be supported by the majority of Congress. Right now the Republicans are content to let him be him, because it plays to their ends. But few of them would be willing to see their personal power stripped away by such a coup. That would upset too many apple carts. Too many capitalists would lose too much money. Russia doesn't have enough money to piss off the .01%.
Thatís the key question.

Trump declares electoins postponed. Why should the states listen to him? How many would listen to him? How would Trump make the states listen?

Elections happen, Trump doesnít like the results, he declares himself President for Life. Why should the rest of the government listen to him? How would Trump enforce his will?

Or even if heís more subtle, and declares the elections invalid because of massive fraud. Again, if the subsequent investigation turns up nothing, or if Trump wants the results nullified until itís completed, why should the system listen to him? By what mechanism would Trump make them?
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:24 PM
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We're ahead of schedule. People usually wait until a President's second term to start speculating he'll seize power and cancel elections.
In all fairness, how many previous presidents expressed an interest in being president for life?
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:29 PM
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I remember hearing the same about Reagan and Nixon, in addition to the other Presidents mentioned.

Even read a novel about the latter case.

https://www.amazon.com/Last-Presiden.../dp/1522694137

But I don't think he's going to last that long, even barring impeachment. Having said that I think if far more likely that persons around him, knowing the importance that Americans attach to at least the forms of Democracy would engineer his replacement with a like "minded" individual. Probably someone without the saving grace of incompetence.
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:38 PM
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Especially since he can't

Really, people. Were you all asleep in American Government class in high school?
To be fair, these weren't the kind of contingencies we were discussing at the time.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:03 PM
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Saw this question being asked on these boards about Clinton.

Saw this question being asked on these boards about Bush Jr.

Saw this question being asked on these boards about Obama.

Guess we're right on schedule.
Saw this question being asked on these boards about Trump.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:38 PM
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As long as the bread & circuses aren't cut off, people will grumble a bunch but mostly get on with their lives.

Unless you're under the impression that Americans are a special kind of people who eat despots and poop democracy & freedom
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:04 PM
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Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
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-No, they don't.
It seems they did in a poll about a year ago:

Quote:
In a new poll, half of Republicans say they would support postponing the 2020 election if Trump proposed it

Claims of large-scale voter fraud are not true, but that has not stopped a substantial number of Republicans from believing them. But how far would Republicans be willing to follow the president to stop what they perceive as rampant fraud? Our recent survey suggests that the answer is quite far: About half of Republicans say they would support postponing the 2020 presidential election until the country can fix this problem.

SOURCE: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ddf8e2b36e5d
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:04 PM
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Saw this question on the board about John Adams.

Not this board, it was just a piece of wood and someone had written on it with a piece of charcoal. I think it was that Jefferson guy.

Last edited by TriPolar; 06-15-2018 at 10:05 PM.
  #42  
Old 06-15-2018, 10:21 PM
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Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Trump decides he doesn't want to risk getting voted out of office in 2020 and is willing to break the law to avoid it.

Which would he do? Declare he's postponing the election and sow open opposition to his Presidency with a naked power grab? Or hold the election as scheduled, manipulate the results, and declare himself the winner regardless of how many votes he actually got?

Who's going to prove him wrong if he declares he won? Who'll investigate the results? The Republican majority in Congress? The Republican majority on the Supreme Court? Trump himself?

Hell, if Trump does this there's plenty of people on this board who would believe him.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:32 PM
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Right. Stealing an election is something that is tried and tested, people know how to do it. There is no need to bring down the process if you can play it to your advantage.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:41 PM
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I have a vague memory of the 2012 election when results were coming in and Obama was declared the winner. I recall Karl Rove on FOX reacting in shock. I mean literal, "it can't be", kind of surprise to the point he kept denying it for a bit. I have zero proof of anything but either he bought their own, bogus internal polling bullshit that they peddled to the media hook, line and sinker or he really had a reason to expect a different result suggesting the fix was in (or so he thought). As much as I disliked the guy my impression of him was that he is not a stupid person and despite whatever bullshit he peddled he knew the tricks he was playing and that their internal polling was more fantasy than reality. But again, I dunno. Just a pet conspiracy theory and not one I cling to very hard.

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Old 06-15-2018, 10:45 PM
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Well, the decision to "postpone" (euphemism for cancel) an election isn't done in a vacuum. In the novel I referenced in a prior post, the way it was done was this. A staged terrorist event kills both major party candidates (along with a number of other folks) This serves as the rationale for postponement. The patsies for this were far-leftist types intended to be Weatherman analogs. (The book was set in the 70's.) Update that to Antifa and you're good to go.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:49 PM
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These clowns? They could try.

Again, the elections are all state-run. Is it possible for them to manipulate key states to get an Electoral College win? Sure. They've done it once already. Can they change the results sufficiently to take over the states with the most population? Fuck, no. What you would see is what you have already seen - the flipping of states at the local and state level. If trump decided to go after California and New York, they'd just tell him to pound sand and tie everything up in the courts until he's termed out. If he doesn't infarct first.

There is a good chance of a second civil war, but it won't be fought on the battlefields as much as it will be waged in the courts. Rule of Law is still ingrained in most of the population. The nutballs will be the first to act and the first to die. 95% of the population will just hunker down and ride it out until the .01% put their foot down.
  #47  
Old 06-16-2018, 12:16 AM
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What will America be like if/when it recovers from this madness? With evidence mounting against Trump and criminal and civil suits threatened against top Trumpists, remaining in office may be his best chance to enjoy the rest of his life. Once Trump loses power will fraudsters like Pruitt ever hold elective office again? What about enablers like Paul Ryan? In an optimistic scenario even the liars at FoxNews may suffer. Once Trump goes down.

So the incentive by criminals and traitors to retain the Trump regime is huge. And there's certainly the will to use all means, whether ethical or not. But Trump might be re-elected without cheating, and would therefore have a huge incentive NOT to engage in obvious fraud. If the election were held today, Trump vs Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris, will any Doper say with confidence that Warren/Harris would be the favorite?

We can expect shenanigans, but actually canceling or postponing the 2020 elections seems quite far-fetched. It seems naive to assume that the states could just ignore this, however; for one thing it is Mike Pence who is charged with certifying the electoral result.

One might imagine Trump sending busloads of supporters, or troops, into California to intimidate Hispanic voters. This is just one of many ways an insurrection might arise. But ó maybe I'm an optimist ó I consider such scenarios unlikely. The Trumpists are evil enough for such desperate tactics, but probably too incompetent to pull it off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
There's no credible expectation that Trump would last into a second term via non-criminal means, so if we're going to speculate that he will attempt criminal means, we have to get in on it early!
Predictit.org shows Trump as 40% to win re-election in 2020. That's the net chance, so his chance conditioned on his running is greater than 50%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacquernagy View Post
America has propped up both right-wing and left-wing (communist) dictatorships around the world for the past century ...
Refresh my memory, please. Which communist dictatorship did America prop up?
  #48  
Old 06-16-2018, 12:31 AM
TriPolar TriPolar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post


Refresh my memory, please. Which communist dictatorship did America prop up?
Does the Soviet Union count? I wouldn't exactly call it a dictatorship like Cuba or North Korea, but it isn't that far from it.
  #49  
Old 06-16-2018, 01:00 AM
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Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
Does the Soviet Union count? I wouldn't exactly call it a dictatorship like Cuba or North Korea, but it isn't that far from it.
The Soviets?

During the Russian civil war the US supported the White Movement which were anti-communist forces against the Reds (obviously the White Movement lost).

Certainly we helped Stalin during WWII but that was a marriage of convenience against a common foe which didn't last ten seconds after the war was over (remember General Patton and some others wanted to keep going and attack the Soviets at the end of WWII).

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 06-16-2018 at 01:01 AM.
  #50  
Old 06-16-2018, 02:08 AM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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Add-on question (hope the OP doesn't mind): Since the elections are held by the states, what if enough red/Republican states get in on the game to agree to suspend their elections so that the Democratic 2020 candidate can't get to the 270 electoral votes required even if winning every single state that does still hold election? The Democratic candidate could get 268 electoral votes to Trump's 0 and still not win the Electoral College.
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