Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:38 PM
Chad Sudan Chad Sudan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 34
The Trump era - what's surprised you the most?

It's been eighteen months since Trump took office.

We've seen the shattering of a lot of political norms. Many of these were predictable, given what we saw in the 2016 campaign - the tweets, the corruption, and so on.

But many others have been unexpected.

I never would have predicted all the staff dismissals at the White House. I especially thought that Steve Bannon, who got his million-to-one shot at real power, would make sure to hold onto it.

Conversely, one thing I expected has not happened. I thought there was likely to be a major terrorist attack on the U.S., designed to provoke Trump into a new Middle East war.

What developments have most surprised you?
  #2  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:56 PM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 21,196
That it happened at all.
  #3  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:04 AM
Procrustus Procrustus is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW. ¥
Posts: 11,276
I’m shocked he still has support of the party he pretends to belong to
  #4  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:04 AM
Covfefe Covfefe is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Sudan View Post
I never would have predicted all the staff dismissals at the White House. I especially thought that Steve Bannon, who got his million-to-one shot at real power, would make sure to hold onto it.
Why would that be surprising? There was a high level of turnover in his campaign team the prior 18 months.
  #5  
Old 06-17-2018, 01:13 AM
Lamoral Lamoral is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Fenario
Posts: 2,145
There's absolutely nothing about it that has surprised me at all. I knew from the very beginning he was going to win (and nobody believed me), and so far he's done all the things I already assumed he would do. I've got his fucking number - I have from the very beginning even though nobody listened to me.
  #6  
Old 06-17-2018, 01:58 AM
Velocity Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 12,695
That the economy's still going strong.
  #7  
Old 06-17-2018, 06:49 AM
computergeek computergeek is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 701
What has truly surprised and shocked me has been how much the Republican Party rolled over for him and kissed his ass (after some initial hesitation). They are so afraid of Trump's base that they are either running for the hills of retirement or sucking up to him and doing his bidding (or remaining silent) to avoid the wrath of the base
  #8  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:55 AM
Jophiel's Avatar
Jophiel Jophiel is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Chicago suburbia
Posts: 18,527
Same as Procrustus and computergeek, I think I'm most surprised that the GOP has so completely rolled over and abandoned major parts of their supposed ideology. Especially since the run-up had so many people insisting (when it was expected Trump would lose) that he wasn't a "real" Republican ("He's practically a New York liberal!") or that that the GOP was going to moderate him. Instead he took complete control of the party in record time and they're all terrified of him now.
  #9  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:55 AM
E-DUB's Avatar
E-DUB E-DUB is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,255
Gotta agree with the majority here. The fact that the party has become his bitch surprised me, but probably shouldn't have. I mean, we only thought they had principles, right.
  #10  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:12 AM
Defensive Indifference Defensive Indifference is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 6,491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
That the economy's still going strong.
This is mine, too. After the election I called my financial advisor and asked how to prepare for the coming financial crisis. She talked me off the ledge. To be fair, Velocity and I had good company. ISTR a Paul Krugman column predicting that the US would essentially not recover from the stock market dive that occurred immediately after the election. I still think Trump's policies, to the extent he has actual policies, will lead to a weakening of the US' economy, but I expected it to happen faster.

I'm not at all surprised that the Republican party has rolled over for Trump.
  #11  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:17 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 20,662
How little uproar this has caused internationally. Maybe the world is just putting on a pretend face but I figured electing Trump would cause the entire world to go 'ok, the Americans have totally lost their minds. They are too morally and intellectually bankrupt to lead. Lets do it all ourselves while the Americans work through their racial resentment issues'. That has kind of happened, but not to the degree that I thought it would have.

Also I'm surprised it hasn't been 'that' bad so far. No economic collapse, no war.

I guess what will also surprise me (in a bad way) is if the democratic margin in 2018 is no bigger than the GOP margin in 2010. In 2010 the GOP won the popular vote about 52 to 45. A 7 point margin. Some polls show the democrats winning in 2018 by a 7 point margin.

If ending the great recession and passing health reform is all it takes for the democrats to lose congress by a 7 point margin, I will be deeply disappointed if Trump and the complicit GOP committing treason, rampant corruption, gross incompetence, white nationalism and destroying our reputation only causes the democrats to win by a 7 point margin. At that point, why bother. The American people consider both these things equal in their eyes. If the average American voter considers mild health reform and a stimulus to end the recession as offensive as treason and declaring war on democracy, then fuck this country.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 06-17-2018 at 12:19 PM.
  #12  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:19 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 20,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-DUB View Post
Gotta agree with the majority here. The fact that the party has become his bitch surprised me, but probably shouldn't have. I mean, we only thought they had principles, right.
It is possible that the GOP has taken Russian money and is now complicit, so they have incentive to cover things up. Supposedly Devin Nunes is also being investigated for his own crimes, so he has incentive to cover things up.

But yes, the republicans who haven't broken the law who are helping cover up Trump's crimes are confusing. I think people like Gowdy realize the dam is about to burst and are keeping their distance, but they still cover up for Trump.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #13  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:26 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz Quartz is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Home of the haggis
Posts: 29,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Sudan View Post
What developments have most surprised you?
That he's still there. Of course, the Republicans may be waiting for November.
  #14  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:27 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 7,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
It is possible that the GOP has taken Russian money and is now complicit, so they have incentive to cover things up. Supposedly Devin Nunes is also being investigated for his own crimes, so he has incentive to cover things up.
I think the odds are that Russia's money has made it deep into the political system. Exactly how is something that Mueller will eventually find out, if he's allowed to complete his investigation.

I think some Republicans would roll over and support Trump just to annoy Democrats, but Russia has spent years trying to meddle not just with the 2016 election but with our entire system.
  #15  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:29 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 20,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Same as Procrustus and computergeek, I think I'm most surprised that the GOP has so completely rolled over and abandoned major parts of their supposed ideology. Especially since the run-up had so many people insisting (when it was expected Trump would lose) that he wasn't a "real" Republican ("He's practically a New York liberal!") or that that the GOP was going to moderate him. Instead he took complete control of the party in record time and they're all terrified of him now.
True, but at the same time Paul Ryan voted for Medicare part D back under Bush. So it isn't like these people were ever principled. All that really matters to them is power.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #16  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:34 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 7,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
How little uproar this has caused internationally. Maybe the world is just putting on a pretend face but I figured electing Trump would cause the entire world to go 'ok, the Americans have totally lost their minds. They are too morally and intellectually bankrupt to lead. Lets do it all ourselves while the Americans work through their racial resentment issues'. That has kind of happened, but not to the degree that I thought it would have.

Also I'm surprised it hasn't been 'that' bad so far. No economic collapse, no war.

I guess what will also surprise me (in a bad way) is if the democratic margin in 2018 is no bigger than the GOP margin in 2010. In 2010 the GOP won the popular vote about 52 to 45. A 7 point margin. Some polls show the democrats winning in 2018 by a 7 point margin.

If ending the great recession and passing health reform is all it takes for the democrats to lose congress by a 7 point margin, I will be deeply disappointed if Trump and the complicit GOP committing treason, rampant corruption, gross incompetence, white nationalism and destroying our reputation only causes the democrats to win by a 7 point margin. At that point, why bother. The American people consider both these things equal in their eyes. If the average American voter considers mild health reform and a stimulus to end the recession as offensive as treason and declaring war on democracy, then fuck this country.
These things take time.

The interest on the debt is going to start taking off in the next year or two. Gas prices are going to rise. There's a growing private debt bubble. We have fewer and fewer banks and financial institutions holding more and more accounts, which means that the next time the financial crisis occurs, rather than 'too big to fail' the phrase du jour might be 'too big to save'
  #17  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:36 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 79,184
That he still had supporters. Most people knew he was making promises he would never keep when he was running. But some people believed him. Okay, they were gullible - but you couldn't prove they were wrong at the time because a Trump presidency was still just hypothetical.

But now he is President and he's proven we were right; Trump is failing as President.

But he somehow still has a large base of supporters who believe him. Trump tells them he is doing a great job and they believe it. He tells them all the evidence that he's doing terribly is just "fake news" and they believe him. He tells them things today that contradict what he said yesterday and they believe him on both days. He lies and lies and lies and lies and lies but he has people who believe everything he says.
  #18  
Old 06-17-2018, 01:04 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayard View Post
... To be fair, Velocity and I had good company. ISTR a Paul Krugman column predicting that the US would essentially not recover from the stock market dive that occurred immediately after the election. ...
Krugman is so regularly wrong about predictions, one could almost set a watch by it. Why anyone thinks his predictions have any credibility at all is a mystery to me.

Quote:
It really does now look like President Donald J. Trump, and markets are plunging. When might we expect them to recover? ... a first-pass answer is never. ... So we are very probably looking at a global recession, with no end in sight. I suppose we could get lucky somehow. But on economics, as on everything else, a terrible thing has just happened.
NYT on 11/9/16 - Paul Krugman: The Economic Fallout

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 06-17-2018 at 01:04 PM.
  #19  
Old 06-17-2018, 01:13 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The land of the mouse
Posts: 47,933
I'd expected him to learn how responsibility works by now. What has surprised me most is the degree of pure evil that the man harbors, and that so many people who consider themselves good Americans can still support.

Give the children back. Now.
  #20  
Old 06-17-2018, 01:40 PM
The Tooth The Tooth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 4,354
Nothing about what Trump and his enablers and factotums are doing surprises me. I'm occasionally shocked, but never surprised. The Trump Administration is like a haunted house at a fair: you might be startled by the guy with the sheet over his head who jumps out and says "Boo!", but you can't claim you were surprised that a haunted house ride had a guy playing a ghost in it.
__________________
"It would never occur to me to wear pink, just as it would never occur to Michael Douglas to play a poor person." - Sarah Vowell
  #21  
Old 06-17-2018, 02:27 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tooth View Post
Nothing about what Trump and his enablers and factotums are doing surprises me. I'm occasionally shocked, but never surprised. The Trump Administration is like a haunted house at a fair: you might be startled by the guy with the sheet over his head who jumps out and says "Boo!", but you can't claim you were surprised that a haunted house ride had a guy playing a ghost in it.
You can be a little surprised when you find out that children are being dragged away from their parents in the parking lot.
  #22  
Old 06-17-2018, 02:33 PM
The Tooth The Tooth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 4,354
Not in the least. Shocked and disgusted, but not surprised. I know who Stephen Miller is and what he's like, after all. I haven't forgotten that Trump said Nazis are very fine people or that he has often expressed his admiration for the ways of brutal dictators.
__________________
"It would never occur to me to wear pink, just as it would never occur to Michael Douglas to play a poor person." - Sarah Vowell
  #23  
Old 06-17-2018, 03:57 PM
don't mind me don't mind me is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: somewhere over there
Posts: 1,064
I'm surprised that iDJiT's entire base has doubled down in their support despite his vile conduct that often hurts them in particular. Willful stupidity knows no bounds.
  #24  
Old 06-17-2018, 04:11 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz Quartz is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Home of the haggis
Posts: 29,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Same as Procrustus and computergeek, I think I'm most surprised that the GOP has so completely rolled over and abandoned major parts of their supposed ideology.

Get a clue: both sides want power.
  #25  
Old 06-17-2018, 05:21 PM
Shalmanese Shalmanese is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Shenzhen, China
Posts: 7,235
I was surprised by how little desire there is within the Republican Party for a Pence presidency. I figured Trump would get outmaneuvered in Washington and pushed to the side in favor of establishment minded Pence with a well timed impeachment. Instead, the Pubs seem to not care whether the ideology they're following in any way reflects any prior ideology and only care about the exercise of power.
  #26  
Old 06-17-2018, 05:28 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 20,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
I'd expected him to learn how responsibility works by now.
Not to be offensive but I've never understood this argument. Trump has been a petulant, mentally unstable, selfish person who have lived like he is above the law his entire life.

Throw in probable dementia and (what he assumed was) unlimited power and why would that make him more responsible?
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #27  
Old 06-17-2018, 05:32 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The land of the mouse
Posts: 47,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Not to be offensive but I've never understood this argument. Trump has been a petulant, mentally unstable, selfish person who have lived like he is above the law his entire life.
But he's always been human and of adult age. During the campaign, it was still possible to dismiss the assclown stuff as a staged act to rile up the deplorable base. I'm surprised to find myself questioning that assumption now and realizing it wasn't an act.

Every other under-prepared President has realized it early on and made the monumental effort to live up to the job's responsibilities, with varying degrees of success. I don't think it was crazy to expect him to do the same, but he hasn't made even a start.

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 06-17-2018 at 05:37 PM.
  #28  
Old 06-17-2018, 05:33 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 20,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Get a clue: both sides want power.
Call it partisanship, but the democrats seem more principled than the GOP. The GOP will abandon democracy and the constitution, as well as all their principles for power. The democrats less so.

Many democrats likely knew the ACA would cost them their seats but they voted for it anyway. Obama said similar things, he'd rather be a good one term president than a bad 2 term one.

I don't see the democrats being as hostile to democracy as the GOP. A big issue is authoritarianism. That is the root cause of all this bullshit. About 25% of the public score high on authoritarianism. in the last few decades there has been a political realignment. People who score high on authoritarianism moved to the GOP, people who scored low moved to the democrats. Now I assume roughly half the GOP are authoritarians (an assumption) but in the democrats it is likely much lower.

Basically whatever party is considered home for bigoted authoritarians will respect democracy and principles least. All authoritarians care about is tribalism and fear of outsiders. If anything, they are hostile to democracy and human rights because these things (in their minds) make outsiders more dangerous. A dictatorship with bad human rights makes them feel safer from scary outsiders. So Trump's war on democracy and everything it stands for (independent judiciary, independent law enforcement, voting rights, free press, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, etc) is a feature, not a bug, to his base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by don't mind me View Post
I'm surprised that iDJiT's entire base has doubled down in their support despite his vile conduct that often hurts them in particular. Willful stupidity knows no bounds.
Yeah, same. But so far he has been riding Obama's accomplishments. When the deficit triples, we have a recession, prices spike due to trade wars, the investigations bear lots of fruit, etc. then they may turn on him. May.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 06-17-2018 at 05:34 PM.
  #29  
Old 06-17-2018, 05:34 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The land of the mouse
Posts: 47,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Get a clue: both sides want power.
Some to use it to help people, some just to enrich themselves.

Hint: If you ever find yourself saying "both sides", you need to reassess your position before you make the mistake of clicking Submit.
  #30  
Old 06-17-2018, 07:23 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
Some to use it to help people, some just to enrich themselves.

Hint: If you ever find yourself saying "both sides", you need to reassess your position before you make the mistake of clicking Submit.
I guess we know which one these people picked, right?
  #31  
Old 06-17-2018, 07:29 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz Quartz is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Home of the haggis
Posts: 29,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
Some to use it to help people, some just to enrich themselves.
Remind me, how rich have the Clintons become? And how about Obama?

Quote:
Hint: If you ever find yourself saying "both sides", you need to reassess your position before you make the mistake of clicking Submit.
Hint: before making such criticism, remember that the poster may be thousands of miles away and have the advantages of both distance and not being and American and therefore may have a different perspective.
  #32  
Old 06-17-2018, 07:44 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 20,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I guess we know which one these people picked, right?
Bill Clinton raised taxes on the rich. He hiked the income tax rates on the rich, eliminated the medicare tax cap, passed the EITC and FMLA, expanded SCHIP.

Hillary clinton ran on roughly the same kind of policies. Higher taxes on the rich and powerful, regulations on their behavior combined with more subsides on the working class and middle class. Democrats both hike and reduce taxes on the working class though. They may cut their payroll taxes like Obama did, but raise their cigarette or fuel taxes.

Trump and the republicans do the opposite. They hike expenses on the working class and middle class, cut their subsidies and use the money to fund supply side tax cuts. Regressive taxes have gone up. The GOP tax cut made the tax cuts for the rich permanent, but the tax cuts for the middle class temporary.

The fact that the Clintons made 240 million in 15 years is irrelevant to what they do in office. Ned Lamont is worth ~200 million but he would've made a great progressive senator. Alan Greyson is rich. Nancy Pelosi is rich.

I don't think you understand liberals well if you think we all hate anyone who gets rich in private life. I don't mind that. I mind high levels of income inequality, I don't like oligarchy/plutocracy, and I don't like plutocratic economic policy.

The Clintons, Greysons, Pelosis, Lamonts, etc of the world do not bother me. If you can get rich, great. As long as you support progressive economic policies in politics and think it is wrong for businessmen and the wealthy to own the country you are welcome as a democrat. The Clintons being worth a quarter million is fine. Al Gore is worth a lot too. But he supports single payer.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 06-17-2018 at 07:46 PM.
  #33  
Old 06-17-2018, 08:39 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove Dr. Strangelove is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,361
What has surprised me is how little effect Trump has had. It seems like most of the world has gone on as if he doesn't exist. In retrospect, this isn't a shock, though: his utter incompetence in virtually every respect means that in a sense, Trump doesn't exist. And this is largely true of his incompetent underlings as well, like Pruitt, Carson, and Pai.

I vaguely worry that the world will one day wake up from this vague dreamland--"holy shit--did you realize we put a fucking moron in charge?" But maybe it's the same thing as worrying that one day, the economy will collapse because it's all based on shuffling bits of paper (or just bits) around; or that law and order will collapse because it's based on a bunch of people just agreeing to behave a certain way; etc. The world won't wake up because we're all far too invested in pretending that things are still normal. And pretending that things are normal is almost as good as them actually being normal.
  #34  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:00 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 7,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
What has surprised me is how little effect Trump has had. It seems like most of the world has gone on as if he doesn't exist. In retrospect, this isn't a shock, though: his utter incompetence in virtually every respect means that in a sense, Trump doesn't exist. And this is largely true of his incompetent underlings as well, like Pruitt, Carson, and Pai.

I vaguely worry that the world will one day wake up from this vague dreamland--"holy shit--did you realize we put a fucking moron in charge?" But maybe it's the same thing as worrying that one day, the economy will collapse because it's all based on shuffling bits of paper (or just bits) around; or that law and order will collapse because it's based on a bunch of people just agreeing to behave a certain way; etc. The world won't wake up because we're all far too invested in pretending that things are still normal. And pretending that things are normal is almost as good as them actually being normal.
He's had little visible effect -- that doesn't mean he has had no effect. Trump is having an effect. The leaders in Asia and Europe see it, even if most people do not.

When people start noticing the effects, it's probably going to be too late. The assumption that, we can just change course in the next election if he turns out to be a mistake is giving us a false sense of security. The damage that Trump will end up inflicting will be catastrophic.
  #35  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:20 PM
China Guy China Guy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Krugman is so regularly wrong about predictions, one could almost set a watch by it. Why anyone thinks his predictions have any credibility at all is a mystery to me.



NYT on 11/9/16 - Paul Krugman: The Economic Fallout
Actually, Krugman is pretty good. And he did a full mea culpa on how he let his passions get ahead of his economist side for the election fall out.
  #36  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:23 PM
Fair Rarity's Avatar
Fair Rarity Fair Rarity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,990
I both thought it would be much worse and much better. I thought he'd do something so stupidly illegal in the first few days that Congress would HAVE to do something, even just a censure. And I thought since he was more interested in being praised than any ideology that he'd just kind of go rogue and maybe do truly popular things.

I wasn't expecting the complete gross incompetency, but I also thought enough congress members in blue and purple states would balk more.
  #37  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:32 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove Dr. Strangelove is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
When people start noticing the effects, it's probably going to be too late. The assumption that, we can just change course in the next election if he turns out to be a mistake is giving us a false sense of security. The damage that Trump will end up inflicting will be catastrophic.
I agree that the effects are long-term. But long-term effects are correctable. Trump as president is an idiot child at the helm of an oil tanker. Yes, he may be steering us toward the lighthouse--and yes, the correction may be stronger and less comfortable when it comes--but there is still time.

Several Trumps in a row? Maybe the course would be irreversible then. But one is not enough, especially as he appears to be pushing the buttons randomly. He's not competent enough to be truly malicious.
  #38  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:33 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 7,445
I was not among those who thought that the country would collapse the moment Trump took office. That's because the institutions are so strong that the plane can fly itself for a while. But Trump has been relentlessly attacking those institutions. Agencies are losing career people, with decades of knowledge. We're losing skill and competence in the bureaucracy. You're not going to see the damage right away. But this is an untenable situation.

The crazy thing is, most successful autocrats are simultaneously bad at running a government and a functional society on one hand, but still manage to find ways to get the public's consent to rule. Hugo Chavez was a disaster for his country, but he was popular enough to be trusted with more and more power. The same could be said of Fidel Castro, Chairman Mao, Recep Erdogan, and Vladimir Putin.

The ugly truth that nobody wants to confront in this country is that ordinary people have essentially lost some of their democratic and libertarian values. We probably wouldn't mind being ruled by an authoritarian regime -- we would probably think of it as a short-term experiment. But that's not how an authoritarian looks at it. They're playing the long game.

Last edited by asahi; 06-17-2018 at 09:36 PM.
  #39  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:36 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 7,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
I agree that the effects are long-term. But long-term effects are correctable. Trump as president is an idiot child at the helm of an oil tanker. Yes, he may be steering us toward the lighthouse--and yes, the correction may be stronger and less comfortable when it comes--but there is still time.

Several Trumps in a row? Maybe the course would be irreversible then. But one is not enough, especially as he appears to be pushing the buttons randomly. He's not competent enough to be truly malicious.
They *might* be correctable.

Might.
  #40  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:10 PM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by China Guy View Post
Actually, Krugman is pretty good. And he did a full mea culpa on how he let his passions get ahead of his economist side for the election fall out.
He's very good. But he calls out stupidity when he sees it, and unsurprisingly that stupidity is oftentimes on the right, so the right has a vested interest in downplaying his achievements.
__________________
"...the social ills of the nonwhite inner-city poor had their origin not in some mysterious flaws of African-American culture but in economic factors—specifically, the disappearance of good blue-collar jobs. Sure enough, when rural whites faced a similar loss of economic opportunity, they experienced a similar social unraveling." - Krugman
  #41  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:42 PM
Tilt-A-Whirl Tilt-A-Whirl is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 37
Not a development exactly, but the thing that has surprised me most about the Trump era is just how many of my fellow Americans are terrible people. Until he came along, I really didn't understand how many there were.
  #42  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:48 PM
Defensive Indifference Defensive Indifference is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 6,491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilt-A-Whirl View Post
Not a development exactly, but the thing that has surprised me most about the Trump era is just how many of my fellow Americans are terrible people. Until he came along, I really didn't understand how many there were.
I think it was someone on this board who said, in 2016, that if Trump won, we would have to face up to the fact that we're not the people we thought we were. I've thought of that about 1000 times since Trump's election.
  #43  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:08 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
... I don't think you understand liberals well if you think we all hate anyone who gets rich in private life. ...
I understand liberals just fine thanks. I never claimed anything like the "all" or "anyone" you post here, but irrational hatred of the rich is definitely more common on the Left than the Right.
  #44  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:12 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by China Guy View Post
Actually, Krugman is pretty good. And he did a full mea culpa on how he let his passions get ahead of his economist side for the election fall out.
Lots of leftists decided to abandon the pretense of being fact-driven and rational during and after the election.
  #45  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:15 PM
China Guy China Guy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I understand liberals just fine thanks. I never claimed anything like the "all" or "anyone" you post here, but irrational hatred of the rich is definitely more common on the Left than the Right.
not sure about that, but irrational belief by the disadvantaged Right that one day they will be fuck you rich and not need to pay any taxes is definitely more common on the Right that the Left. And these disadvantage Righty's seems to believe that not having to pay taxes when they finally get rich will more than offset the fact that the majority of then will suffer with Obamacare scale backs.
  #46  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:16 PM
China Guy China Guy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Lots of leftists decided to abandon the pretense of being fact-driven and rational during and after the election.
. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet, two words for you "supply side economics"
  #47  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:21 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,440
nevermind, that was unnecessarily harsh.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 06-17-2018 at 11:24 PM.
  #48  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:42 PM
China Guy China Guy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Maybe we should do some basic counting exercises first?
that was a joke, boy, you missed it, went right by ya.

I can't remember the scene, maybe Goodfellas, Casino, Scarface, one of these testosterone movies. "I got two words for you, go fuck yourself" was the original. I thought it morphed well into supply side economics. BTW, point stands. We get supply economics 3.0 and it's just as pathetic as 1.0.

Last edited by China Guy; 06-17-2018 at 11:43 PM.
  #49  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:47 PM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Lots of leftists decided to abandon the pretense of being fact-driven and rational during and after the election.
Unlike Trump supporters, right?
__________________
"...the social ills of the nonwhite inner-city poor had their origin not in some mysterious flaws of African-American culture but in economic factors—specifically, the disappearance of good blue-collar jobs. Sure enough, when rural whites faced a similar loss of economic opportunity, they experienced a similar social unraveling." - Krugman
  #50  
Old 06-18-2018, 12:43 AM
Drum God Drum God is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Central Texas, USA
Posts: 2,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayard View Post
I think it was someone on this board who said, in 2016, that if Trump won, we would have to face up to the fact that we're not the people we thought we were. I've thought of that about 1000 times since Trump's election.
I think I can agree with this. I am truly saddened by the many people in my world whom I have always believed to be good, decent people support Trump. So, am I wrong about the people in my life or am I wrong about Trump? Or, are they wrong about Trump?

The other thing that has shocked me is just how depressing I find all of this. I think that has really had a negative effect on my life.
__________________
At the feast of ego, everyone leaves hungry.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:36 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017