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  #1  
Old 06-18-2018, 10:30 AM
filmore filmore is offline
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If Pit threads for members are allowed, it should only be for things they post in the Pit

Personally, I don't think Pit threads about members should be allowed. If someone doesn't like what someone else posts, they should contact the moderators to handle it. But if pitting members is allowed, I think it should only be for things that they post in the Pit.

One reason is that not everyone checks the Pit or checks it regularly. It's unfair to have a thread which is denigrating a member without that member being aware of it to defend themselves.

But the bigger reason to me is that this board is made up of people with a wide variety of opinions. Disagreeing is part of the community, and what makes it great. Members should accept that people will post things that they disagree with. If they feel strongly enough, they should discuss it in the existing thread. If they think the other poster is very bad, they can tell the moderators. I think it's detrimental to the overall health of the discussions if people can create a side thread to say they don't like another poster. It can stifle discussion and may cause members to quit if they feel like they are being attacked or mocked.

But I can see allowing them for people who post in the Pit, because that can be considered part of the "fun" of the Pit. But I don't think someone should be able to create a Pit thread for something a member posts in GQ, CS or the other forums.
  #2  
Old 06-18-2018, 10:35 AM
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I don't think you understand the point of the Pit, or how it works.
  #3  
Old 06-18-2018, 10:40 AM
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The main point of the Pit is to allow people who have disagreements elsewhere on the board to have it out with the gloves off, without having to abide by the restrictions of other forums. It's intended to be a safety valve so discussions in other forums can be less contentious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmore
One reason is that not everyone checks the Pit or checks it regularly. It's unfair to have a thread which is denigrating a member without that member being aware of it to defend themselves.
It's generally considered polite that if someone Pits another poster based on what they said in another forum, they provide a link in the original thread, although this is not required. Of course, no one is required to participate in the Pit if they don't wish to.

I wouldn't see much point in having a Pit if the only reason was to insult people for what they said in the Pit itself.
  #4  
Old 06-18-2018, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by filmore View Post
One reason is that not everyone checks the Pit or checks it regularly. It's unfair to have a thread which is denigrating a member without that member being aware of it to defend themselves.
It's customary to post a link to the Pit thread in whatever other thread spawned the pitting. And there usually is such a thread, we don't generally pit people for no reason at all.
Quote:
But the bigger reason to me is that this board is made up of people with a wide variety of opinions. Disagreeing is part of the community, and what makes it great. Members should accept that people will post things that they disagree with. If they feel strongly enough, they should discuss it in the existing thread. If they think the other poster is very bad, they can tell the moderators.
We don't just pit people for breaking board rules (in fact, we shouldn't - that's for ATMB)- we also pit them for saying shitty things, like racist or sexist things or just horrible human being things - but especially where discussing that aspect would derail the original thread.
Quote:
I think it's detrimental to the overall health of the discussions if people can create a side thread to say they don't like another poster. It can stifle discussion and may cause members to quit if they feel like they are being attacked or mocked.
How does a side discussion that people don't visit stifling them in any way? Be consistent, yeah?
Quote:
But I don't think someone should be able to create a Pit thread for something a member posts in GQ, CS or the other forums.
No. Just - no. Not as long as racists, sexists and the like are free to post any drivel as long as it's polite.

Last edited by MrDibble; 06-18-2018 at 10:49 AM.
  #5  
Old 06-18-2018, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by filmore View Post
[snip] ... It's unfair to have a thread which is denigrating a member without that member being aware of it to defend themselves ... [snap]
This might be your mistake ... there's no "defending yourself" in the Pit ... it's all about offensive offense ...

I think The Pit does what it's designed to do ... give folks a place to continue a contentious debate and not ruin the original thread ... The Pit also keeps rants out of the rest of the fora ... and it keeps the back-stabbers collected together so they aren't stabbing each other in the back ...
  #6  
Old 06-18-2018, 11:08 AM
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I think The Pit does what it's designed to do ... give folks a place to continue a contentious debate and not ruin the original thread ... The Pit also keeps rants out of the rest of the fora ... and it keeps the back-stabbers collected together so they aren't stabbing each other in the back ...
I will admit that I don't have deep knowledge of the member pitting threads, but are they really about two members continuing their heated discussion? The impression I get is that they are more about one member slagging another member. So rather than taking a heated discussion to a separate thread, they often seem to be of the form of "I don't like this other member" or "I don't like what this other member is posting." It doesn't seem to be "This thread is a continuation of the discussion we two were having in GD."

If what you wrote is the concept behind creating Pit threads for members, then that's great! There are many times where I wish the two members would take their back-and-forth to their own thread. But it doesn't seem like that's what's really going on.
  #7  
Old 06-18-2018, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by watchwolf49 View Post
This might be your mistake ... there's no "defending yourself" in the Pit ... it's all about offensive offense ...
So-called "reverse Pittings" are not uncommon, when the Pitter has misjudged his position and ends up being the target of the Pitting himself.
  #8  
Old 06-18-2018, 11:17 AM
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There are many message boards that don't have anything like a Pit. On those boards, if you get pissed off at someone, you don't have any outlet, so stuff tends to build up until someone gets so pissed off that they go completely off the rails.

The original purpose of the Pit was to give folks a chance to flame away at each other without any rules (the flaming bit is the whole reason it's called the BBQ Pit) so that they could get it out of their system and not have it blow up in the regular forums.

Over the years the Pit has changes a bit. Instead of being just a chance to flame other users here, it's a forum where you can bitch about pretty much anything, and the general lack of rules has its own attraction for some.

The "fun" of the Pit (as the OP puts it) is not the original purpose of the Pit. The original purpose of the Pit is exactly what the OP wants to exclude. The Pit is still very much used for exactly that purpose, so getting rid of it makes absolutely no sense, IMHO.
  #9  
Old 06-18-2018, 11:20 AM
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It's secretly a jobs program for Miller
  #10  
Old 06-18-2018, 11:46 AM
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Some of us spend the bulk of our time there, because we're dicks.
.
  #11  
Old 06-18-2018, 11:53 AM
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I thought it was community service for that incident with him and the flare gun during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade..?
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Last edited by Superdude; 06-18-2018 at 11:54 AM.
  #12  
Old 06-18-2018, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filmore View Post
But the bigger reason to me is that this board is made up of people with a wide variety of opinions. Disagreeing is part of the community, and what makes it great. Members should accept that people will post things that they disagree with. If they feel strongly enough, they should discuss it in the existing thread. If they think the other poster is very bad, they can tell the moderators. I think it's detrimental to the overall health of the discussions if people can create a side thread to say they don't like another poster. It can stifle discussion and may cause members to quit if they feel like they are being attacked or mocked.
I rarely see Pit threads started on matters of "disagreement". It's more typically to vent about some individual being perceived as being, shall we say, exceptional in some outstanding way with respect to ignorance, prejudice, arrogance, or some other extreme quality that invites commentary.

And a lot of Pit threads or postings are not about posters at all, but directed at public figures and organizations. Also, some discussions in the Pit can be remarkably civil and substantive, and sometimes, if a thread hasn't been contaminated with content that would break the rules of a regular forum, it might even be moved. Discussions in the Pit are in fact all over the map in that regard, ranging from civil and informative to downright nasty. The Pit is an interesting concept, and it can be enjoyable, not because of the nastiness or the opportunity to insult someone, but because the free rein on language and topic can result in commentary that is entertaining and funny, all the more so because it's often refreshingly honest, not hiding behind a veneer of mandated politeness. Of course that doesn't prevent some jerks from just being gratuitously nasty.
  #13  
Old 06-18-2018, 12:08 PM
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It's secretly a jobs program for Miller
And to keep the rest of us in line.

"Do as you're told, or you'll join Miller in the Pit!"

  #14  
Old 06-18-2018, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filmore View Post
But the bigger reason to me is that this board is made up of people with a wide variety of opinions. Disagreeing is part of the community, and what makes it great. Members should accept that people will post things that they disagree with. If they feel strongly enough, they should discuss it in the existing thread. If they think the other poster is very bad, they can tell the moderators. I think it's detrimental to the overall health of the discussions if people can create a side thread to say they don't like another poster. It can stifle discussion and may cause members to quit if they feel like they are being attacked or mocked.
That's fine in theory but people don't act like this in practice. If a disagreement is over the issues, then the debate can stay in the regular forums. But some disagreements are with the person posting them and those disagreements belong in the pit.
  #15  
Old 06-18-2018, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by filmore View Post
Personally, I don't think Pit threads about members should be allowed. If someone doesn't like what someone else posts, they should contact the moderators to handle it.
So, if I strongly disagree with this, I should notify a moderator via PM and they then will what?
  #16  
Old 06-18-2018, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
So-called "reverse Pittings" are not uncommon, when the Pitter has misjudged his position and ends up being the target of the Pitting himself.
Someone pitted me. It was the best thing that ever happened to me on this board! If a Pitting is unwarranted, people will let certainly let the Pitter know.
  #17  
Old 06-18-2018, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Quoth Superdude:

I thought it was community service for that incident with him and the flare gun during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade..?
To be fair, he had no way of knowing that some of the balloons were filled with hydrogen instead of helium.
  #18  
Old 06-18-2018, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
I don't think you understand the point of the Pit, or how it works.
The purpose or point of the Pit was supposedly to allow members to blow off steam by insulting each other in a controlled environment. However, this has totally failed. It actually make the problem worse. Most boards dont have a Pit and the environment is much friendlier , much more calm and welcoming. The Pit may also be one of the reasons for the possible decline of female members.

What the Pit seems to be actually used for is allowing non-paying guests to harass and bully paying members, causing a decrease in membership.

And of course Mini-rants, or Political rants which could just as well be put in IMHO or a Rants area.

There is no need at all for a area where members can be personally insulted and abused.
  #19  
Old 06-18-2018, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
The main point of the Pit is to allow people who have disagreements elsewhere on the board to have it out with the gloves off, without having to abide by the restrictions of other forums. It's intended to be a safety valve so discussions in other forums can be less contentious.
Yes, that was intent. But it has completely and totally failed at that.

It was a experiment that has failed, and needs to be put at rest.
  #20  
Old 06-18-2018, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by engineer_comp_geek View Post
There are many message boards that don't have anything like a Pit. On those boards, if you get pissed off at someone, you don't have any outlet, so stuff tends to build up until someone gets so pissed off that they go completely off the rails.
Yes, but I post on many boards that dont have anything at all like the Pit and they are happier, friendlier places. The horrible insults, harrassment and bullying in out Pit just makes things worse, not better.
  #21  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:09 PM
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While I disagree with the OP and agree with what most of the other posters are saying, it should be noted that there are only 3 Pit threads on the first page right now that are directed at specific posters and at least two of them mostly fizzled.
  #22  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
The horrible insults, harrassment and bullying in out Pit just makes things worse, not better.
So don't go in there. Problem solved!
  #23  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:22 PM
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So don't go in there. Problem solved!
Works for me. I never go into the Pit, and the SDMB seems like a pretty happy and decent place to me (maybe a bit less happy in some ATMB threads).

You're not required to go into the Pit.

If someone ever Pits me (or has ever Pitted me), you'll have to send me a PM or something to let me know because otherwise I'm not going to have a clue that it's happened.
  #24  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:31 PM
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The horrible insults, harrassment and bullying in out Pit just makes things worse, not better.
How do you know what goes on in there? I thought you claimed to never darken its doorstep? Is there some other way to find out what an poster is pitting there?
  #25  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:43 PM
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Yes, that was intent. But it has completely and totally failed at that.

It was a experiment that has failed, and needs to be put at rest.
Seems to work pretty well for that function to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
What the Pit seems to be actually used for is allowing non-paying guests to harass and bully paying members, causing a decrease in membership.
I have seen absolutely zero evidence that this is the case. What support do you have for this allegation?
  #26  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:52 PM
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Sounds like time for another poll: What causes the greater decrease in membership: the pit or zombie posts?
  #27  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
The purpose or point of the Pit was supposedly to allow members to blow off steam by insulting each other in a controlled environment. However, this has totally failed. It actually make the problem worse. Most boards dont have a Pit and the environment is much friendlier , much more calm and welcoming. The Pit may also be one of the reasons for the possible decline of female members.

What the Pit seems to be actually used for is allowing non-paying guests to harass and bully paying members, causing a decrease in membership.

And of course Mini-rants, or Political rants which could just as well be put in IMHO or a Rants area.

There is no need at all for a area where members can be personally insulted and abused.
I think I disagree with every single thing in this post, up to and including the punctuation.
  #28  
Old 06-18-2018, 05:13 PM
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I think I disagree with every single thing in this post, up to and including the punctuation.
I agre; additionally I'd have used "an" in place of "a" where warranted.
  #29  
Old 06-18-2018, 05:19 PM
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While I disagree with the OP and agree with what most of the other posters are saying, it should be noted that there are only 3 Pit threads on the first page right now that are directed at specific posters and at least two of them mostly fizzled.
Yep. So, we make the Pit into Rants, and dont allow personal attacks anywhere. A nice rant does let off steam.
  #30  
Old 06-18-2018, 05:50 PM
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The main point of the Pit is to allow people who have disagreements elsewhere on the board to have it out with the gloves off, without having to abide by the restrictions of other forums. It's intended to be a safety valve so discussions in other forums can be less contentious.
I guess so. On the other hand, it is a form of allowed and legalized abuse.

Sadly many adult Homo Interneticus Humans are more aggressive then Homo Sapiens Junior High Students.

But such is life.
  #31  
Old 06-18-2018, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Yep. So, we make the Pit into Rants, and dont allow personal attacks anywhere. A nice rant does let off steam.
And leave nowhere on the board for us to call out the dips, dinks, dingbats, dorks, dummies, detestables, dopes, dolts, dimwits, ditzes, dastards, dunces, and deplorables that deign to darken our domain?

I dramatically disagree!
  #32  
Old 06-18-2018, 05:55 PM
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And leave nowhere on the board for us to call out the dips, dinks, dingbats, dorks, dummies, detestables, dopes, dolts, dimwits, ditzes, dastards, dunces, and deplorables that deign to darken our domain?

I dramatically disagree!
D’oh!
  #33  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:02 PM
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Most boards dont have a Pit and the environment is much friendlier , much more calm and welcoming.
What gave you the idea that the internet was friendly, calm, and welcoming?
  #34  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:12 PM
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Yep. So, we make the Pit into Rants, and dont allow personal attacks anywhere. A nice rant does let off steam.
What if what one wants to Rant about is another member? Do we establish different rules, so that a lowly guest dare not attack a paid member?
  #35  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
The purpose or point of the Pit was supposedly to allow members to blow off steam by insulting each other in a controlled environment. However, this has totally failed. It actually make the problem worse. Most boards dont have a Pit and the environment is much friendlier , much more calm and welcoming. The Pit may also be one of the reasons for the possible decline of female members.

What the Pit seems to be actually used for is allowing non-paying guests to harass and bully paying members, causing a decrease in membership.

And of course Mini-rants, or Political rants which could just as well be put in IMHO or a Rants area.

There is no need at all for a area where members can be personally insulted and abused.
Where does the paying vs non-paying come into it? That part confuses me. Anyone who registers, regardless of paying or not, has equal access to the pit. Are paying members supposed to be isolated from pit threads? What if paying members pit other paying members, or non-paying members? Are those scenarios ok?
  #36  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:24 PM
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And leave nowhere on the board for us to call out the dips, dinks, dingbats, dorks, dummies, detestables, dopes, dolts, dimwits, ditzes, dastards, dunces, and deplorables that deign to darken our domain?

I dramatically disagree!
Sadly USA contains 40 million people with Mental Disability -- I have Autism and Depression. There are 10 million with Severe Mental Disability -- they are in a much worse situation then me. Many people escape to Social Media to cope with their mental anguish.

Could you please consider their perspective.
  #37  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:27 PM
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Some of us spend the bulk of our time there, because we're dicks.
.
But not jerks.

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Originally Posted by raventhief View Post
What if what one wants to Rant about is another member? Do we establish different rules, so that a lowly guest dare not attack a paid member?
Members can rant about guests; charter members can rant about members; mods can rant about charter members.
  #38  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:29 PM
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Mods can't start pit threads about other posters - a steep price to pay.

Last edited by Bone; 06-18-2018 at 06:29 PM.
  #39  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:48 PM
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The only way we, as a community, can currently take someone to task for being a raging jerkopotamus is the Pit. Sometimes the mods can't do it, but we, as a group, can. It works both ways. Sometimes a poster feels fed up, and decides to Pit someone and learns to their shock and dismay that not everyone feels the same way.

That said, I think that many interesting discussions are had in the Pit. It's certainly not a smoking, crater-filled landscape destitute of all hope or intelligence.
  #40  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
The only way we, as a community, can currently take someone to task for being a raging jerkopotamus is the Pit. Sometimes the mods can't do it, but we, as a group, can. It works both ways. Sometimes a poster feels fed up, and decides to Pit someone and learns to their shock and dismay that not everyone feels the same way.

That said, I think that many interesting discussions are had in the Pit. It's certainly not a smoking, crater-filled landscape destitute of all hope or intelligence.
That’d be Mos Eisley
  #41  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:52 PM
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Sadly USA contains 40 million people with Mental Disability -- I have Autism and Depression. There are 10 million with Severe Mental Disability -- they are in a much worse situation then me. Many people escape to Social Media to cope with their mental anguish.

Could you please consider their perspective.
Stay out of The Pit.

There, problem solved.
  #42  
Old 06-18-2018, 07:09 PM
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How do you know what goes on in there? I thought you claimed to never darken its doorstep? Is there some other way to find out what an poster is pitting there?
The Pit apparently has windows too.

#LoopholesROCK
  #43  
Old 06-18-2018, 07:33 PM
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What gave you the idea that the internet was friendly, calm, and welcoming?
In two ATMB threads now, the female members here have asked for a more friendly and welcoming SDMB.
  #44  
Old 06-18-2018, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
Where does the paying vs non-paying come into it? That part confuses me. Anyone who registers, regardless of paying or not, has equal access to the pit. Are paying members supposed to be isolated from pit threads? What if paying members pit other paying members, or non-paying members? Are those scenarios ok?
What the issue is is that the Pit jerks are scaring off paying members and also female members. The Pit turns this board into a unwelcoming place.
  #45  
Old 06-18-2018, 07:47 PM
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IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is offline
Nope! I said stop!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
In two ATMB threads now, the female members here have asked for a more friendly and welcoming SDMB.

“Friendly and welcoming” is an oversimplification of the issue and it did not pertain to the Pit.
  #46  
Old 06-18-2018, 07:54 PM
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silenus silenus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
What the issue is is that the Pit jerks are scaring off paying members and also female members. The Pit turns this board into a unwelcoming place.
That is so totally wrong it's nigh-on unbelievable. The fact that the SDMB has a place to isolate the flame wars and insults speaks well of its desire to welcome everybody (within reason). Asking everybody to protect the dainty and delicate (of whatever sex, gender, persuasion, inclination or form) and not use rude language or characterizations is ridiculous on its face. If anything, The Pit should have the restraints removed and let it go back to the way it was - the Wild West, where you sacked up or stayed out. Anybody and everybody was fair game, including Mods, and there weren't any silly language restrictions.

Last edited by silenus; 06-18-2018 at 07:55 PM.
  #47  
Old 06-18-2018, 08:53 PM
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Sunny Daze Sunny Daze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
“Friendly and welcoming” is an oversimplification of the issue and it did not pertain to the Pit.
I'll back up ITD on this. The Pit is not the issue.
  #48  
Old 06-18-2018, 08:55 PM
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crowmanyclouds crowmanyclouds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silenus View Post
{...} If anything, The Pit should have the restraints removed and let it go back to the way it was - the Wild West, where you sacked up or stayed out. Anybody and everybody was fair game, including Mods, and there weren't any silly language restrictions.
Hear, hear!
IMHO the boards slowed down after the Pit was nerfed.

CMC fnord!
  #49  
Old 06-18-2018, 08:56 PM
splatterpunk splatterpunk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
In two ATMB threads now, the female members here have asked for a more friendly and welcoming SDMB.
They were not referring to Pit threads. They were referring to behavior in other forums.
  #50  
Old 06-18-2018, 10:02 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silenus View Post
The fact that the SDMB has a place to isolate the flame wars and insults speaks well of its desire to welcome everybody (within reason). Asking everybody to protect the dainty and delicate (of whatever sex, gender, persuasion, inclination or form) and not use rude language or characterizations is ridiculous on its face.

You dont need to isolate that personal insults & flame wars, just ban them, as most other message boards do.

And you can use rude language in all forums. Just you can't call names.

Why is is necessary for you to be able to insult other members?
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