View Poll Results: Do you consider Asians to be "people of color"?
Yes 99 69.72%
No 43 30.28%
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  #1  
Old 07-07-2018, 11:44 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Do you consider Asians to be "people of color"?

I'm trying to get a feel where Dopers come down on this question. Do you consider Asians to be "people of color"?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 07-07-2018 at 11:45 AM.
  #2  
Old 07-07-2018, 11:53 AM
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I'm not real fond of the expression myself, but I always thought "people of color" meant "anyone but white people/Caucasians." Which would include those of Asian ancestry.
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Old 07-07-2018, 11:56 AM
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POC is supposed to be a catch-all term for everyone who isn't pink, not the new "black."
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Old 07-07-2018, 12:13 PM
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I consider Asians to be non-white. So thus "people of color".
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Old 07-07-2018, 12:21 PM
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How Asian do you have to be? Is someone from Turkey (the Asian part) a person of color? How about an Armenian?

Last edited by John Mace; 07-07-2018 at 12:22 PM.
  #6  
Old 07-07-2018, 12:27 PM
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No.

However, just like people of colour, they are a visible minority.

If youíre meaning to refer to those experiencing discrimination, sometimes visible minority is the better phrase, I think.
  #7  
Old 07-07-2018, 12:29 PM
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These Asians appear to be quite melanin-rich to me. They also happen to be Caucasian, so there you go.
  #8  
Old 07-07-2018, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
I'm not real fond of the expression myself, but I always thought "people of color" meant "anyone but white people/Caucasians." Which would include those of Asian ancestry.
Ditto.
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Old 07-07-2018, 12:32 PM
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Ditto.
Tritto.

[Or is it "tretto"?]
  #10  
Old 07-07-2018, 12:36 PM
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Caucasians are Asian.
  #11  
Old 07-07-2018, 12:47 PM
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My wife, whose parents spent World War 2 in an interment camp, gets rather testy to people who insist Asians are not people of color.
  #12  
Old 07-07-2018, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
How Asian do you have to be? Is someone from Turkey (the Asian part) a person of color? How about an Armenian?
The kind of people who care about other people's "White-ness" are, historically, inclined to use "Mediterranean" as a euphemism for "Non-White". Nowadays, in America, we tend to forget the Protestant part of "White-Ango-Saxon-Protestant", but, for a certain sort of racist, "Latin" wasn't much better than "African". So, yes, Turkey is right out. Armenian is also out, because no one knows where Armenia is, but it's poor and non-European, therefore, suspect.

The Asians who are not even arguably-white-skinned Christians, like Armenians, are definitely "Non-White", in those sorts of circles, too.
  #13  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Merneith View Post
The kind of people who care about other people's "White-ness" are, historically, inclined to use "Mediterranean" as a euphemism for "Non-White". Nowadays, in America, we tend to forget the Protestant part of "White-Ango-Saxon-Protestant", but, for a certain sort of racist, "Latin" wasn't much better than "African". So, yes, Turkey is right out. Armenian is also out, because no one knows where Armenia is, but it's poor and non-European, therefore, suspect.

The Asians who are not even arguably-white-skinned Christians, like Armenians, are definitely "Non-White", in those sorts of circles, too.
The great bulk of Armenians are quite definitely Christians. Indeed, as an Armenian-born lady at church was fond of reminding people, (she would be identified as white by pretty much anybody these days based on skin tone and facial features) Armenia was the first state/country/nation to adopt Christianity as their official religion.

It’s certainly true that Italians and Greeks were once considered non-white.

Last edited by Ulf the Unwashed; 07-07-2018 at 01:10 PM.
  #14  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:09 PM
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No.

However, just like people of colour, they are a visible minority.
Population of Asia: 4.463 billion
Population of the world: 7.2 billion
How are Asians a minority?


Those of you who are answering "No": What is your definition of "people of color"?
  #15  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:13 PM
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I would defer to what Asians think, and every Asian person I've worked with or been friends with (when it's come up) considers him or herself to be a POC.
  #16  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:31 PM
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Another option: I do not label other people for them. If someone wants to call themselves a POC, okay, whatevs. If they are Asian or not, also whatevs.

This is not my job.
  #17  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:36 PM
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No. I don't see race or color.
  #18  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Merneith View Post
The kind of people who care about other people's "White-ness" are, historically, inclined to use "Mediterranean" as a euphemism for "Non-White". Nowadays, in America, we tend to forget the Protestant part of "White-Ango-Saxon-Protestant", but, for a certain sort of racist, "Latin" wasn't much better than "African". So, yes, Turkey is right out. Armenian is also out, because no one knows where Armenia is, but it's poor and non-European, therefore, suspect.

The Asians who are not even arguably-white-skinned Christians, like Armenians, are definitely "Non-White", in those sorts of circles, too.
I think the kind of mind-set you are referring to is in a considerable minority the US, so I don't see why that considerable minority is going to be the deciding factor.

And Armenians are almost all Christians. In fact, Christianity came to Armenia centuries before it came to most of Europe.
  #19  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
Population of Asia: 4.463 billion
Population of the world: 7.2 billion
How are Asians a minority?


Those of you who are answering "No": What is your definition of "people of color"?
The term doesn't make sense except in it's relation to white people. It would be odd for Chinese people, in China, to think of themselves as "people of color".

Last edited by John Mace; 07-07-2018 at 01:41 PM.
  #20  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:49 PM
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I don't like labeling people by race. I either see smart or inbred.

Last edited by SOJA; 07-07-2018 at 01:49 PM.
  #21  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ulf the Unwashed View Post
The great bulk of Armenians are quite definitely Christians. Indeed, as an Armenian-born lady at church was fond of reminding people, (she would be identified as white by pretty much anybody these days based on skin tone and facial features) Armenia was the first state/country/nation to adopt Christianity as their official religion.

Itís certainly true that Italians and Greeks were once considered non-white.
I know. My point is that the sort of racist who is suspicious of Italians & Greeks isn't going to be any less suspicious of other non-European Christians, regardless of actual skin color.
  #22  
Old 07-07-2018, 02:09 PM
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Yes. An Asian friend of mine is an actor here and he constantly posts about the lack of roles and lack of hiring of POC in Chicago theatres.
  #23  
Old 07-07-2018, 02:11 PM
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POC is supposed to be a catch-all term for everyone who isn't pink, not the new "black."
I was going to say this, but make allowances for orange.

Last edited by voltaire; 07-07-2018 at 02:12 PM.
  #24  
Old 07-07-2018, 02:19 PM
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Both of my children are Asian(Korean) and while their skin is very similar to my wife and me(both white), I guess they are supposed to be "people of color".

I defnitely could see a white person having skin the same color as theirs. It's lighter than my wife and me, though my son gets a tan like nobody's business.
  #25  
Old 07-07-2018, 02:31 PM
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I know. My point is that the sort of racist who is suspicious of Italians & Greeks isn't going to be any less suspicious of other non-European Christians, regardless of actual skin color.
I'm not really sure what all that has to do with the question the OP is asking. If an Italian-American politician tried to sell himself as "a person of color", he'd be largely derided for doing so, even if a few racist Americans might might not consider him "white".
  #26  
Old 07-07-2018, 02:42 PM
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Of course. I'm sorta surprised there are people who don't.
  #27  
Old 07-07-2018, 03:47 PM
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I also am surprised. What is the definition of the term that would exclude Asians? As far as I know, it just means non-white people living in a white dominated culture.
  #28  
Old 07-07-2018, 03:49 PM
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I have noticed a strange tendency of a lot of demographers or statisticians to make a "All minorities except Asian" category, especially in academics. They will measure SAT test scores, GPAs etc. and say, in essence, "Minorities (except for Asians) have high dropout rates or low SAT scores," etc. It's as if they are afraid that including Asians in minorities will skew their desired statistic or number that they want to present in the chart.
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Old 07-07-2018, 03:50 PM
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Of course. I'm sorta surprised there are people who don't.
It's like Catholics who say they eat fish on Fridays because meat is not allowed on Fridays.
  #30  
Old 07-07-2018, 03:52 PM
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A visible minority, is those who cannot hide their difference from the majority.

In America all Asians are a visible minority, as are native Indians, even though it’s their homeland.

Clearly, in Asia it is the Caucasian that is the visible minority.

Hope that helps with your confusion.

Last edited by elbows; 07-07-2018 at 03:53 PM.
  #31  
Old 07-07-2018, 03:58 PM
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It's like Catholics who say they eat fish on Fridays because meat is not allowed on Fridays.
Is that a sexual euphemism?
  #32  
Old 07-07-2018, 04:01 PM
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I have noticed a strange tendency of a lot of demographers or statisticians to make a "All minorities except Asian" category, especially in academics. They will measure SAT test scores, GPAs etc. and say, in essence, "Minorities (except for Asians) have high dropout rates or low SAT scores," etc. It's as if they are afraid that including Asians in minorities will skew their desired statistic or number that they want to present in the chart.

Yep.
  #33  
Old 07-07-2018, 05:21 PM
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Are we only talking about Asians from China, Japan, the Koreas and Southeast Asia? Or are we also including Russia, India, and the 'stans?
  #34  
Old 07-07-2018, 06:23 PM
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These discussions are why the concept of "race" is such bullshit. All there are, are phenotypes. Phenotypes are different combinations of facial features (and to a lesser extent, body types) and skin pigmentation. Certain phenotypes predominate in certain geographical regions, but even in those cases there is a wide variety, and there are infinite number of phenotypes created as people create new children. That's all there is. The idea of dividing humans into discrete "races" is, firstly, arbitrary, and secondly, rather recent.

What "race" is this man? Try to ignore the bizarre eyebrow. I know, it's hard. The guy is from Uzbekistan. Most people, if they didn't know that, and they saw his face in isolation of the uniform and nametape, would be totally unable to tell you what the hell "race" he is. Is he "white" or "Asian"?

My mother's family comes from the Baltic region of Europe. Well, there are people on her side of the family who almost look like that guy. Anyone who has Finnish, Estonian, or Icelandic ancestry can wind up with eyes like that. So can Eastern Europeans with ancestry from the "stan" areas that the above poster mentioned. You have any idea how far into Europe the genetics of the Central Asian and/or Mongol peoples go? Very far.

All this racial shit is going to be less and less relevant in the next hundred years as the world gets smaller and the "races" start mixing more, and hundreds of thousands of new phenotypes are created that blend features from all the geographical regions of the world. And finally someday people will accept these phenotypes for what they are: solely cosmetic. Cosmetic features can be interesting, they can be intriguing and alluring and they can generate interesting discussions and endless taxonomical classifications. But in the end, they're still just cosmetic.
  #35  
Old 07-07-2018, 06:31 PM
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It's also endlessly ridiculous to me that the concept of "color" is somehow applied to people who are literally the same color as Europeans and differ only in the shape of their eyes and nose.
  #36  
Old 07-07-2018, 08:06 PM
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These discussions are why the concept of "race" is such bullshit.... That's all there is. The idea of dividing humans into discrete "races" is, firstly, arbitrary, and secondly, rather recent.
What's "recent"? Slavery started in the Americas like 400 years ago.

Since the beginning of time, humans have always sought to identify other groups of humans as "inferior" so they could stick them with the shit jobs no one wants to do.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:29 PM
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That's recent as hell in the long term human timeline.
  #38  
Old 07-07-2018, 11:19 PM
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Heck, I don't consider anyone a person of color unless the news points them out as such. But in truth, I am white, of european descent. I do notice that someone is south asian, far east, east African, or unidentified African or otherwise, but that's just heritage. It says very little about the person themselves and I find it an unreliable indicator of who the person really is.
  #39  
Old 07-07-2018, 11:42 PM
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No. I don't see race or color.
This.

I never classify people based on ethnicity or skin color or whatever. People are people.
  #40  
Old 07-07-2018, 11:58 PM
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The full-blooded but basically white Siberian in me wants to ask "Do you mean all Asians or just the Oriental ones?" but I decided to just say yes.
  #41  
Old 07-08-2018, 12:12 AM
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There's race, and there's class.

Over the last 60 years, this country has done a fairly good job of at least trying to separate race and class. But in the Trump era, all bets are off.
  #42  
Old 07-08-2018, 12:54 AM
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What's "recent"? Slavery started in the Americas like 400 years ago.

Since the beginning of time, humans have always sought to identify other groups of humans as "inferior" so they could stick them with the shit jobs no one wants to do.
This post is confusing to me. Slavery has been a part of civilization (irony not intended) almost since the beginning. In America, Native American tribes were often at war and enslaved other tribes. Africans were enslaving each other from long before the 17th century. Arabs were and still are slavers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
There's race, and there's class.

Over the last 60 years, this country has done a fairly good job of at least trying to separate race and class. But in the Trump era, all bets are off.
Race and class are correlated because of culture.

I have been reading Black Rednecks and White Liberals by Thomas Sowell, and the book addresses both of these issues.
  #43  
Old 07-08-2018, 12:56 AM
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This post is confusing to me. Slavery has been a part of civilization (irony not intended) almost since the beginning. In America, Native American tribes were often at war and enslaved other tribes. Africans were enslaving each other from long before the 17th century. Arabs were and still are slavers.
This may be true, but I'm not aware of any other times in history where there were cultures where people were automatically enslaved or deprived of rights for no other reason than their physical phenotype.
  #44  
Old 07-08-2018, 01:00 AM
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No. I don't see race or color.
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Originally Posted by Crafter_Man View Post
This.

I never classify people based on ethnicity or skin color or whatever. People are people.
I wish I could say I always do this, too. But as a teacher, I often don't have a choice. Public schools pigeonhole students, and teachers are required to look at the labels.



The world would be a much better place is people were treated as individuals instead of parts of monolithic, homogeneous groups.
  #45  
Old 07-08-2018, 01:05 AM
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I don't understand why we need to even have a "race" classification on official documentation. Even without the "Hispanic" category complicating it even further, it still seems so pointless to me.

If there's a good reason for it, then I'm in favor of it, I just don't know what that reason is.
  #46  
Old 07-08-2018, 01:09 AM
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This may be true, but I'm not aware of any other times in history where there were cultures where people were automatically enslaved or deprived of rights for no other reason than their physical phenotype.
It's almost always been "us" and "them," and until relatively recently in human history, culture and nationality has correlated to phenotype. So, America did not originate the practice.

Unlike all the other societies that practiced slavery, Western society ended it for themselves first, and have tried to end it worldwide.
  #47  
Old 07-08-2018, 04:18 AM
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I voted "no", because:
(1) I don't use the term "people of color" because I don't find it useful. Everyone has a skin colour, even if it's close to white, or even bright pink.
(2) The term "Asian" is not very useful, as it includes Israelis, Japanese, Siberians and Sri Lankans, who don't have much in common apart from all being human beings. In addition, in the U.S. "Asian" usually means East Asian while in Britain it usually means South Asian, so the use of the term can be very confusing.
  #48  
Old 07-08-2018, 05:18 AM
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I think it is an unhelpful question without defining exactly what you mean by "Asian" and "people of colour" not to mention what you will actually do with the concept when you've defined it properly.
(There was a kerfuffle with a poster in another thread where PoC proved very unhelpful for practical discussions as no-one could actually tell me what it actually meant and how it was being used.)

I get very depressed by identity politics generally. I have an aversion to treating people sharing a single factor as a homogeneous mass. It seems far less helpful than, you know, understanding the individual and all their motivations and experiences.

I mean, what defines a person the most. Skin colour? country of origin? parent's country of origin? parental teachings? religion? sexual preference? gender? class? income bracket? current location? educational experience? job type? political persuasion? health status?....etc. etc. etc.

Is it one of the above?, none of the above?, some of the above?, some of the above and other stuff I haven't even thought of? And in what ratio? and in what priority? do some cancel each other out? do some multiply up?
  #49  
Old 07-08-2018, 08:19 AM
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Asia stretches across the Middle East, Pakistan and India, right through to China, Japan, and SE Asia including places like Laos, Vietnam, and The Phillipines.

So, yes. Definitely POC.
  #50  
Old 07-08-2018, 08:32 AM
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I have noticed a strange tendency of a lot of demographers or statisticians to make a "All minorities except Asian" category, especially in academics. They will measure SAT test scores, GPAs etc. and say, in essence, "Minorities (except for Asians) have high dropout rates or low SAT scores," etc. It's as if they are afraid that including Asians in minorities will skew their desired statistic or number that they want to present in the chart.
I do demographics for a large university. They term that excludes Asians is "underrepresented minorities." The reason it is done is because Asians are heavily overrepresented on college campuses. There are so many that to lump them in a catchall category doesn't tell you anything about the true diversity of the school. You can have schools like UC Davis which has about 40% Asian enrollment and less than 5% black enrollment presenting themselves as minority serving institutions when in reality, they are accepting very high quality Asian students who have their pick of schools and essentially ignoring minority outreach. You lump them in with schools like University of New Mexico which has extremely high numbers of Hispanics and American Indians that they are working to recruit and retain. Pretending that UCDavis and UNM deserve the same funding for 'helping' minorities is ludicrous. I certainly recognize that there are problems with this since not every Asian American group is privileged and not every Hispanic American is not, but to say a University is being diverse and serving the minority community by accepting and retaining the group that outperforms every other group on pretty much every academic measure is pretty ridiculous.
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