Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-09-2018, 06:25 PM
Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 92
White folks and alcholism

I think this post belongs in general questions but I'm pretty sure white folks gonna trip so here it is. If a moderator disagrees, please put in general questions folder (I prefer it there). Anyway, while putting together a bunch of cites for a post in the BBQ Pit, it dawned me that many (though not all) of these instances of racism occur when white folks consume alcohol. I punched in a few words in Google and found this fascinating, peer-reviewed paper that shows a link between blue eyes and alcoholism( Here is a news article for us layman). I know. This is some scary ass, uncomfortable shit. You have some white folk states like Wisconsin where you can have your 8th or 9th DUI and still get a vehicle. That's nuts, but it isn't nuts if blue-eyed folks in a blue-eyed State have a predisposition alcoholism. Could this be why prohibition failed so violently? Harriet Tubman didn't do what Al Capone did (and slavery was much, much worse than prohibition). Historically, this makes sense, right? Alcohol is made of grains. White folks have only been consuming distilled grains for a few hundred years. This is a wild-ass guess, of course. Could someone please parse the paper? No arm-chair biologists, please. I'm already one.

(Before ya'll trip, I am not suggesting white folks are all alcoholics. Thanks)

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 07-09-2018 at 06:28 PM.
  #2  
Old 07-09-2018, 06:43 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: on your last raw nerve
Posts: 19,190
My Rand McNally is out of date. It doesn't identify these "white folk states".
  #3  
Old 07-09-2018, 06:51 PM
Joey P Joey P is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 27,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
You have some white folk states like Wisconsin where you can have your 8th or 9th DUI and still get a vehicle. That's nuts
I have no idea how WI compares to other states WRT to DUIs, but whenever I hear a comment like that I feel that it needs to be mentioned that just because you got a DUI doesn't mean you have a valid license. Your license could be revoked from your 8th DUI, but if you get behind the wheel drunk, you'll get your 9th.

I believe I've heard that our laws are lax and people always comment about in Wisconsin you can get X DUIs and still drive, so I'm not sure if there's jail time (sooner) in other states or if people (or maybe me) isn't understanding something.
  #4  
Old 07-09-2018, 08:24 PM
zoid zoid is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago Il
Posts: 9,679
Can the OP please clarify the debate...

Resolved: ???
  #5  
Old 07-09-2018, 08:43 PM
lisiate lisiate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,477
Caucasians, specifically blue-eyed Caucasians, are more susceptible to alcoholism. States with a high proportion of blue-eyed Caucasians seem to have more lenient drink driving laws. This may also explain the utter failure of alchol prohibition in the twentieth century.

At least I think that's the gist of it.
  #6  
Old 07-09-2018, 08:49 PM
madsircool madsircool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisiate View Post
Caucasians, specifically blue-eyed Caucasians, are more susceptible to alcoholism. States with a high proportion of blue-eyed Caucasians seem to have more lenient drink driving laws. This may also explain the utter failure of alchol prohibition in the twentieth century.

At least I think that's the gist of it.
What?
  #7  
Old 07-09-2018, 08:55 PM
lisiate lisiate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,477
The latter part of the OP.
  #8  
Old 07-09-2018, 08:57 PM
madsircool madsircool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisiate View Post
The latter part of the OP.
What? Racist nonsense.
  #9  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:04 PM
DSeid DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 20,661
So let's take those one step at a time.

Interesting study. An association of light eye color with alcohol dependence. Hypotheses could include that those with light eyes tend to be more commonly of specific cultures that predispose to alcoholism, or that light eyes travel with a genetic predisposition to alcohol dependency. (Note nothing here comparing skin color, and no reason to assume brown eyes meant dark skin.) Support for the former was found in the fact that a gene associated with alcohol dependency was more common in the light eyed group. Very preliminary work though and could just be a fluke.

No information available that I know of on which states have more blue eyed people but if I had to guess I'd go with Minnesota with its Scandinavian heritage groups. And indeed slightly more binge drinking there than the national average. But DUI laws there pretty strict. And cold weather may encourage more binge drinking.

Also white folks, along with black, brown, yellow and red folk, have been consuming alcohol from before those racial divisions existed, from the beginning of society. Alcohol may have been more the driver of agriculture and civilization than bread was. Not just a few hundred years.
  #10  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:05 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 15,154
Not that many people have blue eyes. I bet there's more black americans than blue eyed americans.
  #11  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:12 PM
Roderick Femm Roderick Femm is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On the cusp, also in SF
Posts: 6,197
There's a lot of middle grounds that are missing here.

1. a) A lot of racist incidents happen when white people have been drinking. b) Blue-eyed white people may have a propensity to alcoholism. What's the connection? Lots of people drink who aren't alcoholics. Lots of white people drink, either as an addict or otherwise, who aren't racist and who don't do or say racist things.

2. a) Prohibition failed. b) Blue-eyed white people may have a propensity to alcoholism. What's the connection? I'm pretty sure there were lots of black and brown people, as well as white people, who were ignoring the 18th amendment or who were profiting from it by running bootleg hooch. Why did prohibition fail? Because white people like to drink? If (again for the sake of argument) there is a higher percentage of white people who are alcoholics than non-white people, that is still a very small percentage of the population. "Likes to drink" is not the same as "alcoholic."

3. a) Wisconsin apparently has lenient drunk-driving laws. b) Wisconsin is a majority white state (US census says around 87%). c) Blue-eyed white people may have a propensity to alcoholism. What's the connection? Are white people more likely to oppose strict DUI laws? Is there any evidence of that? Might there not be other, more likely explanations (e.g., and just winging it here, lobbying from the alcohol industry)?

I'm not willing to parse your biology paper, I'm willing to take it as proved, for the sake of argument, that blue-eyed white people have a propensity to alcoholism. I don't know why the OP thinks this is scary. As a blue-eyed white person, and the son, brother, grandson and cousin of a lot of blue-eyed white people, so what? None of these facts connect in any logical way.

I'll give you this, at least for the sake of argument: a racist person is more likely to act out in a racist way, either orally or physically, if s/he has been drinking. If, for the sake of argument, you see more blue-eyed white people acting out as racists, and if it is because they are more likely to be drinking, it does not follow that more blue-eyed white people are racist. So I really don't see what you get out of bringing this up.

"Harriet Tubman didn't do what Al Capone did" - I have yet to figure out what the hell that has to do with anything. Al Capone was a gangster who made money out of selling illegal alcohol (among other things). Harriet Tubman also defied the law, only there was no money in it. What's the connection? What's the parallel?

If the OP can shed some light on what s/he thinks connects any of these facts, I would be willing to read it. Otherwise, the words "illogical hogwash" come to mind.
  #12  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:15 PM
Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisiate View Post
Caucasians, specifically blue-eyed Caucasians, are more susceptible to alcoholism. States with a high proportion of blue-eyed Caucasians seem to have more lenient drink driving laws. This may also explain the utter failure of alchol prohibition in the twentieth century.

At least I think that's the gist of it.

Yeah, more or less.
  #13  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:16 PM
Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
So let's take those one step at a time.

Interesting study. An association of light eye color with alcohol dependence. Hypotheses could include that those with light eyes tend to be more commonly of specific cultures that predispose to alcoholism, or that light eyes travel with a genetic predisposition to alcohol dependency. (Note nothing here comparing skin color, and no reason to assume brown eyes meant dark skin.) Support for the former was found in the fact that a gene associated with alcohol dependency was more common in the light eyed group. Very preliminary work though and could just be a fluke.

No information available that I know of on which states have more blue eyed people but if I had to guess I'd go with Minnesota with its Scandinavian heritage groups. And indeed slightly more binge drinking there than the national average. But DUI laws there pretty strict. And cold weather may encourage more binge drinking.

Also white folks, along with black, brown, yellow and red folk, have been consuming alcohol from before those racial divisions existed, from the beginning of society. Alcohol may have been more the driver of agriculture and civilization than bread was. Not just a few hundred years.
Thanks for the input. I also agree with this is very, very preliminary work.
  #14  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:17 PM
Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 92
You want me to untangle what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
There's a lot of middle grounds that are missing here.

1. a) A lot of racist incidents happen when white people have been drinking. b) Blue-eyed white people may have a propensity to alcoholism. What's the connection? Lots of people drink who aren't alcoholics. Lots of white people drink, either as an addict or otherwise, who aren't racist and who don't do or say racist things.

2. a) Prohibition failed. b) Blue-eyed white people may have a propensity to alcoholism. What's the connection? I'm pretty sure there were lots of black and brown people, as well as white people, who were ignoring the 18th amendment or who were profiting from it by running bootleg hooch. Why did prohibition fail? Because white people like to drink? If (again for the sake of argument) there is a higher percentage of white people who are alcoholics than non-white people, that is still a very small percentage of the population. "Likes to drink" is not the same as "alcoholic."

3. a) Wisconsin apparently has lenient drunk-driving laws. b) Wisconsin is a majority white state (US census says around 87%). c) Blue-eyed white people may have a propensity to alcoholism. What's the connection? Are white people more likely to oppose strict DUI laws? Is there any evidence of that? Might there not be other, more likely explanations (e.g., and just winging it here, lobbying from the alcohol industry)?

I'm not willing to parse your biology paper, I'm willing to take it as proved, for the sake of argument, that blue-eyed white people have a propensity to alcoholism. I don't know why the OP thinks this is scary. As a blue-eyed white person, and the son, brother, grandson and cousin of a lot of blue-eyed white people, so what? None of these facts connect in any logical way.

I'll give you this, at least for the sake of argument: a racist person is more likely to act out in a racist way, either orally or physically, if s/he has been drinking. If, for the sake of argument, you see more blue-eyed white people acting out as racists, and if it is because they are more likely to be drinking, it does not follow that more blue-eyed white people are racist. So I really don't see what you get out of bringing this up.

"Harriet Tubman didn't do what Al Capone did" - I have yet to figure out what the hell that has to do with anything. Al Capone was a gangster who made money out of selling illegal alcohol (among other things). Harriet Tubman also defied the law, only there was no money in it. What's the connection? What's the parallel?

If the OP can shed some light on what s/he thinks connects any of these facts, I would be willing to read it. Otherwise, the words "illogical hogwash" come to mind.
(emphasis mine)

Nah, I'm straight. Feel free to move along. Thanks.
  #15  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:27 PM
Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
What? Racist nonsense.
You're free to email the author, Dr. Dawei Li, with your thoughts. His publicly accessible email is dawei.li@uvm.edu. Let us know what he says.

In any case, I regret making this thread. I realize now that this topic is way, way, way above the paygrade of the posters here. Thanks to DSeid for his analysis. I appreciate it. A moderator has permission to close the thread. I thought there was a large contingent of scientists here. My mistake. Thanks.

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 07-09-2018 at 09:28 PM.
  #16  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:27 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 83,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
Alcohol is made of grains.
Alcohol is made of stuff that has sugar in it. Sometimes that's grain, sometimes not.

Quote:
White folks have only been consuming distilled grains for a few hundred years.
Where on earth did you get that idea?
  #17  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:29 PM
zoid zoid is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago Il
Posts: 9,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
I realize now that this topic is way, way, way above the paygrade of the posters here.
Not enough in the world for this statement.
  #18  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:32 PM
madsircool madsircool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
You're free to email the author, Dr. Dawei Li, with your thoughts. His publicly accessible email is dawei.li@uvm.edu. Let us know what he says.

In any case, I regret making this thread. I realize now that this topic is way, way, way above the paygrade of the posters here. Thanks to DSeid for his analysis. I appreciate it. A moderator has permission to close the thread. I thought there was a large contingent of scientists here. My mistake. Thanks.
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/sci...news-are-wrong
  #19  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:34 PM
Miller Miller is offline
Sith Mod
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bear Flag Republic
Posts: 43,026
Speaking as a blue-eyed white guy, this is neither scary nor uncomfortable.

Quote:
Alcohol is made of grains. White folks have only been consuming distilled grains for a few hundred years.
There's this stuff called wine? Made from grapes? Europeans have been drinking it since about 4500 BCE.
  #20  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:37 PM
Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: So.Ark ?
Posts: 7,547
Idk, but I think he called everybody dumb as he skipped out of the room. Hmmmm?
  #21  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:42 PM
madsircool madsircool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
You're free to email the author, Dr. Dawei Li, with your thoughts. His publicly accessible email is dawei.li@uvm.edu. Let us know what he says.

In any case, I regret making this thread. I realize now that this topic is way, way, way above the paygrade of the posters here. Thanks to DSeid for his analysis. I appreciate it. A moderator has permission to close the thread. I thought there was a large contingent of scientists here. My mistake. Thanks.
A history of beer in Europe. It has been brewed for more than a few hundred years.

https://books.google.com/books/about...eH291i0C&hl=en
  #22  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:44 PM
Grey Grey is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 6,482
Just for the record the linked article’s abstract mentions the study used archived data related to those of “European ancestors”. So you can’t draw any conclusions across “races” anyway.
__________________
"When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it." : Bernard Bailey
  #23  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:48 PM
DSeid DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 20,661
Huey if you want to make racial comparisons here is some data.
Quote:
Native Americans have the highest prevalence (12.1 percent) of heavy drinking (i.e., five or more drinks on the same occasion for 5 or more of the past 30 days; followed by Whites (8.3 percent) and Hispanics (6.1 percent). A larger percentage of Native Americans (29.6 percent) also are binge drinkers, with somewhat lower percentages for Whites (25.9 percent), Hispanics (25.6 percent), and Blacks (21.4 percent). Relative to other ethnic groups, the proportion of Asian Americans (2.7 percent) and Blacks (4.7 percent) who are heavy drinkers and Asian Americans (13.3 percent) who are binge drinkers is low.
The issue is always that there are big sociocultural differences that likely trump any issues of biological predisposition in dealing with these sorts of statistics. The simple correlation approach is the tactic of the so called "scientific racists" and sharing that space with them is not I think where you aim to sit.
  #24  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:51 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 77,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
In any case, I regret making this thread. I realize now that this topic is way, way, way above the paygrade of the posters here. Thanks to DSeid for his analysis. I appreciate it. A moderator has permission to close the thread. I thought there was a large contingent of scientists here. My mistake. Thanks.
So you'd like to throw out an accusation against an entire race. Throw the author of the article you linked to under the bus rather than defend your own thread. Then say that people here are not intelligent enough to understand the topic. And now you'd like to close down the thread so there's no rebuttal.

You have a skewed view of how debate works.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 07-09-2018 at 09:53 PM.
  #25  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:56 PM
Miller Miller is offline
Sith Mod
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bear Flag Republic
Posts: 43,026
Wasn't the violence during Prohibition largely driven by the Italian mafia? Not a ton of blue eyes there...
  #26  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:00 PM
zoid zoid is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago Il
Posts: 9,679
I'm still trying to understand what poor Harriet Tubman did to get pulled into this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
Harriet Tubman didn't do what Al Capone did (and slavery was much, much worse than prohibition).
  #27  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:02 PM
Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
So you'd like to throw out an accusation against an entire race. Then say that people here are not intelligent enough to understand the topic. And now you'd like to close down the thread so there's no rebuttal.

You have a skewed view of how debate works.
Nah, bruh. I was expecting someone with a science background to talk about GABA receptors, to talk about the pigments in the eye, to talk about how these could be related, to talk about how, if anything, can alcohol interact with any of these things. I had hoped that someone could read the article (I do not have access) and fight my ignorance. The only person who kind of scratched the surface was DSeid. I agree with the poster that this is preliminary work. You (and others) are free to rebut all you like. I'll read your views, consider them, but unless you're going to give me some science, I'm not gonna respond. Thanks.
  #28  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:04 PM
Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoid View Post
I'm still trying to understand what poor Harriet Tubman did to get pulled into this...
Then you'll be "trying to understand" until the end of time. If you don't get it now, you wouldn't get it if I explained it to you. I'm not going to bother explaining it to you. Thanks.
  #29  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:06 PM
Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
Wasn't the violence during Prohibition largely driven by the Italian mafia? Not a ton of blue eyes there...
This is true but who did the mafia sell alcohol to? Themselves?

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 07-09-2018 at 10:07 PM.
  #30  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:15 PM
D'Anconia D'Anconia is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
A moderator has permission to close the thread.
The moderators don't need your permission to do anything.
  #31  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:30 PM
Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
The moderators don't need your permission to do anything.
Nevermind. Not worth it.

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 07-09-2018 at 10:31 PM. Reason: Deleted
  #32  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:30 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 38,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
There's this stuff called wine? Made from grapes? Europeans have been drinking it since about 4500 BCE.
Yeah, but that's fermented, not distilled. Distillation allows a concentration of alcohol that can't be achieved by fermentation. There's a reason why prohibitionists railed against demon rum, not demon lager.

That said, I'm having some trouble following along, possibly due to the multiple gimlets I've drunk, with my brown eyes and red hair.
  #33  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:40 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 11,853
Huey, may I (a non-white person) ask why 70% of all your posts or so are about white people?

Any reason for this obsession?
  #34  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:07 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 56,325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
Then you'll be "trying to understand" until the end of time. If you don't get it now, you wouldn't get it if I explained it to you. I'm not going to bother explaining it to you. Thanks.
"I could explain it to you, but you are not smart enough/worthy enough to understand, so I'm not going to bother" is a great way to drive people away.
  #35  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:13 PM
K2500 K2500 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
This is true but who did the mafia sell alcohol to? Themselves?
Probably to white people. Most probably to racist white people. Bet a lot of them had light eyes too. Then they passed down those racist, light eyed alcoholic genes in order to continue their control over over the Wisconsin state legislature. It all makes sense to me now.
  #36  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:26 PM
Miller Miller is offline
Sith Mod
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bear Flag Republic
Posts: 43,026
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Yeah, but that's fermented, not distilled. Distillation allows a concentration of alcohol that can't be achieved by fermentation. There's a reason why prohibitionists railed against demon rum, not demon lager.
Sure, but they were teaching classes in distillation in Italian medical schools in 1200 CE, so it's still not a great argument.
  #37  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:38 PM
I Love Me, Vol. I I Love Me, Vol. I is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 4,045
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Not that many people have blue eyes. I bet there's more black americans than blue eyed americans.
Do you count blue-eyed black folk in both categories?
  #38  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:49 PM
Miller Miller is offline
Sith Mod
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bear Flag Republic
Posts: 43,026
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Not that many people have blue eyes. I bet there's more black americans than blue eyed americans.
There's about 246,000,000 white people in America. About one in three have blue eyes, which is about 82,000,000. There's about 75,000,000 African Americans. So, not quite.
  #39  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:49 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 38,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
Sure, but they were teaching classes in distillation in Italian medical schools in 1200 CE, so it's still not a great argument.
I think that widespread consumption of distilled spirits is only a few centuries old. Here's some cool history:
Quote:
But wine could not withstand the onslaught of gin. The Navigation Act of 1651 dictated that European vessels were only allowed to import goods from their own nations into England. Since most ships in those days were Dutch this dealt a severe blow to the French wine trade. Gin was invented in Holland around 1650 by distilling grain with juniper berries. It was cheap and the supply was fed by laws in 1690 to encourage the distillation and sale of spirits to increase incomes of the landed aristocracy. It was around this time Scotland and Ireland were developing reputations for whiskies. What flooded the market was the spirit that led to the Gin Epidemic. When the law was passed gin production stood at a million gallons a year. Within seven years the English population, of less than seven million, was drinking an annual 18 million gallons.

The epidemic lasted 30 years. "Drunk for one penny, dead drunk for two," the adverts said. Pharmacists sold it to women to "soothe the nerves"; it became known as Mother's Ruin. In 1736 Parliament tried passing a law taxing gin and prohibiting its sale in quantities of less than two gallons. There were riots, and production of gin continued to rise.

Eventually gin consumption waned as beer became better and cheaper, and tea and coffee became available. But in the industrial revolution factories needed a reliable work force. Drunkenness became a threat to industrial efficiency. As towns grew rapidly around factories problems such as urban crime, poverty and high infant mortality increased. Gross overcrowding was the root cause but alcohol took a lot of the blame.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 07-09-2018 at 11:50 PM.
  #40  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:53 PM
Tamerlane Tamerlane is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 13,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Yeah, but that's fermented, not distilled. Distillation allows a concentration of alcohol that can't be achieved by fermentation. There's a reason why prohibitionists railed against demon rum, not demon lager.
Yes, the OP is actually quite correct that grain distillation is relatively recent - more several hundred years than a few hundred, but close enough.

However I don't think that strength of spirits is necessarily all that relevant in terms of intoxication and violence. Alexander the Great did just fine as a homicidal maniac( literally killing his own officers in a drunken rage )with primarily wine at his disposal. So did a billion other ancient alcoholics - the Middle Ages was practically a primer on why drunken teenagers shouldn't be in charge of anything. Spirits just allows you to get drunk quicker.

A genetic predisposition of blue-eyed people to alcoholism would be interesting, and certainly alcohol as a disinhibitor is responsible for amplifying all sorts of stupid behavior. However any impact on racist violence would have to be pretty infinitesimal statistically. If it were a real impact the OP should rejoice - the proportion of blue-eyed caucasians born in the United States has been dropping steadily for decades. From ~57% in 1900 to ~17% in 2002.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 07-09-2018 at 11:54 PM.
  #41  
Old 07-10-2018, 12:04 AM
BigT BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 34,187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
Nah, bruh. I was expecting someone with a science background to talk about GABA receptors, to talk about the pigments in the eye, to talk about how these could be related, to talk about how, if anything, can alcohol interact with any of these things. I had hoped that someone could read the article (I do not have access) and fight my ignorance. The only person who kind of scratched the surface was DSeid. I agree with the poster that this is preliminary work. You (and others) are free to rebut all you like. I'll read your views, consider them, but unless you're going to give me some science, I'm not gonna respond. Thanks.
Then your thread probably would have been better in General Questions, without all the controversial baggage.

But you mentioned this stuff in Great Debates, so you're kinda expected to debate those topics you brought up.
  #42  
Old 07-10-2018, 12:48 AM
cochrane cochrane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Nekkid Pueblo
Posts: 20,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
I realize now that this topic is way, way, way above the paygrade of the posters here.
Wait a minute! We get paid for posting? I remember when we had to pay to post. Now we're the ones getting paid? Why was I not informed of this? Boy, someone's gonna owe me for 12 years of posting.
  #43  
Old 07-10-2018, 01:20 AM
pool pool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Inside
Posts: 3,933
I can't wait for the OP's next post about how melanin gives you superpowers and psychic abilities, and how white folks are mutant albinos.
__________________
"You can do anything you set your mind to...But money helps"

Last edited by pool; 07-10-2018 at 01:20 AM.
  #44  
Old 07-10-2018, 01:37 AM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 15,154
Nm

Last edited by CarnalK; 07-10-2018 at 01:42 AM. Reason: totally misunderstood
  #45  
Old 07-10-2018, 02:17 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 7,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
Nah, bruh. I was expecting someone with a science background to talk about GABA receptors, to talk about the pigments in the eye, to talk about how these could be related, to talk about how, if anything, can alcohol interact with any of these things. I had hoped that someone could read the article (I do not have access) and fight my ignorance. The only person who kind of scratched the surface was DSeid. I agree with the poster that this is preliminary work. You (and others) are free to rebut all you like. I'll read your views, consider them, but unless you're going to give me some science, I'm not gonna respond. Thanks.
I think it is entirely possible that certain human populations may share genes which can express themselves in undesirable ways under certain environmental conditions. Those populations may even share very distinctive outward appearance such as eye, hair or skin colour.
  #46  
Old 07-10-2018, 02:19 AM
The Niply Elder The Niply Elder is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 796
https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...term=p-hacking
  #47  
Old 07-10-2018, 02:26 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 22,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
My Rand McNally is out of date. It doesn't identify these "white folk states".
Wrong guidebook.

in case that wasn't obvious.
  #48  
Old 07-10-2018, 02:39 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 22,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Not that many people have blue eyes. I bet there's more black americans than blue eyed americans.
At most 17% have blue eyes (this used to be as high as 50% in 1900, 35%, as recently as 1950 - "white genocide" is taking longer than ignorance fighting, apparently.). That article isn't dated, but the use of "turn of the century" makes me think it's at least a decade old, so I imagine it's less than 17% now.

12.7% of Americans are African-American, plus whatever other Black Americans there are.

Miller gave numbers for Whites but their numbers ignore the number of AAs and Asian-Americans with blue eyes - not a high percentage, but should be counted.

I think it's close, but I'd still bet there's more blue-eyed Americans than Black ones.

Last edited by MrDibble; 07-10-2018 at 02:43 AM.
  #49  
Old 07-10-2018, 05:45 AM
kayaker kayaker is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 28,945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
(Before ya'll trip, I am not suggesting white folks are all alcoholics. Thanks)
You're implying Crystal Gayle became an alcoholic.
  #50  
Old 07-10-2018, 06:42 AM
Huey Freeman Huey Freeman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamerlane View Post
Yes, the OP is actually quite correct that grain distillation is relatively recent - more several hundred years than a few hundred, but close enough.

However I don't think that strength of spirits is necessarily all that relevant in terms of intoxication and violence. Alexander the Great did just fine as a homicidal maniac( literally killing his own officers in a drunken rage )with primarily wine at his disposal. So did a billion other ancient alcoholics - the Middle Ages was practically a primer on why drunken teenagers shouldn't be in charge of anything. Spirits just allows you to get drunk quicker.

A genetic predisposition of blue-eyed people to alcoholism would be interesting, and certainly alcohol as a disinhibitor is responsible for amplifying all sorts of stupid behavior. However any impact on racist violence would have to be pretty infinitesimal statistically. If it were a real impact the OP should rejoice - the proportion of blue-eyed caucasians born in the United States has been dropping steadily for decades. From ~57% in 1900 to ~17% in 2002.
(emphasis mine)

Could you repeat this again but a bit louder? I have a strong suspicion they'll believe you over me. Otherwise, thanks for your post. I appreciate it.

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 07-10-2018 at 06:43 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017