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Old 07-10-2018, 06:51 PM
TonySinclair TonySinclair is offline
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Dems should confirm Kavanaugh as soon as possible

We can't keep Trump from nominating an ultra-conservative who wants to overturn Roe v Wade. We can't stall a confirmation for two years. So Trump is going to get someone he picks confirmed.

It could be a lot worse than Kavanaugh. At least he's on record as saying under current law, the President is not protected against subpoena or indictment (he famously said he thinks Congress should pass a law that does just that).

And the sooner, the better. Study after study shows that it's easier to energize angry people than satisfied people when it comes to voting. If the confirmation is still pending in November, more Republicans will go to the polls than if it's already done. And if it's already done, more Dems will be angry.

We can't stop Trump from appointing a justice. We CAN stop Trump from otherwise ruining the country if we take over both houses of Congress this November. And the best way to do that is to get this confirmation over as far before the election as possible.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:13 PM
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Ah, yes. The roll-over-and-play-dead strategy. Works every time.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:17 PM
TonySinclair TonySinclair is offline
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Ah, yes. The roll-over-and-play-dead strategy. Works every time.
Snark is easy, but tell me:

a) how you can postpone a confirmation until after a new President is in office
b) what good it would do if the new President is Pence
c) how postponing the confirmation until after the election would help Dems win seats in either house
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:20 PM
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From the "Kav's going to be a new Souter" and "Why couldn't we have gotten someone who is truly pro-life" comments I'm reading from some disgruntled conservatives on FB and elsewhere, it seems that liberals may be fearing Kavanaugh a bit too much.

Always read what the opponents are saying, that will say a lot.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TonySinclair View Post
Snark is easy, but tell me:

a) how you can postpone a confirmation until after a new President is in office
b) what good it would do if the new President is Pence
c) how postponing the confirmation until after the election would help Dems win seats in either house
They probably can't stop it, but if they go over his entire record with a fine tooth comb, there's the possibility they'll find something disqualifying, and more importantly, they'll show Democratic and progressive-leaning voters that they're willing to fight, even when the chances of success are low. Giving up (which is a common Democratic tactic) will just mean some portion of angry voters will give up in believing that the Democrats might fight back.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:39 PM
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“When I hear his steps outside my door I lie down on my bed, open my legs and think of the Donald."

In a word, no. The Democratic Party has a good chance of taking a majority in the House with the current status quo, and opposing Kavanaugh, whose rulings and positions pretty much fall along partisan lines, will not change that. The Democrats have a negligible chance of winning control the Senate where they would would have to retain ten out of twenty-six seats (including two independent candidates in caucus with the DNC) up for contention in ostensibly pro-Trump states and gain two more in unfavorable races against the nine Republican-held seats, seven of which are incumbents, which would be a historical upset. This isn’t wholly unprecidented—it’s the same numerically as happened in 2008–but holding that number of seats up for election hasn’t been shown since 1982, and in the post-WWII era there has never been that combination of holds and gains by Democrats. The Democrats actually be statistically fortunate not to lose a seat or two in this scenario.

Regardless, with a Supreme Court appointment for life, there is good reason to take a principled stance, even if it is a losing proposition in the short term. And the supposed strength of the anti-abortion contingent as single issue voters with a chockhold on swing elections is not as firm as it is often made out to be, nor is the issue as rigidly partisan as often presented by political wonks. Kavanaugh should get his hearing and and face scrutiny, and moderate and progressive elements of both the Republican and Democratic parties should vote in opposition of the appointment if Kavanaugh does not demonstrate a commitment to upholding legitimate prior decisions made by the court, especially with regard to providing cover to a sitting president in the argument that the holder of the office should be shielded from prosecution, which is arguable an even more pressing and long term danger than overturning Roe v. Wade.

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Old 07-10-2018, 07:43 PM
Troy McClure Troy McClure is offline
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Presumably the best outcome for the Democrats would be to turn out as many of their voters as possible in November. To that end, the best thing for them would be a gradually increasing storm of Trumpian buffoonery/fearmongering that peaks a few days before election day. They probably can't delay confirmation that long, but they could turn it into part of the buildup.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:44 PM
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They probably can't stop it, but if they go over his entire record with a fine tooth comb, there's the possibility they'll find something disqualifying, and more importantly, they'll show Democratic and progressive-leaning voters that they're willing to fight, even when the chances of success are low. Giving up (which is a common Democratic tactic) will just mean some portion of angry voters will give up in believing that the Democrats might fight back.
But what if they succeed? Suppose the Democrats find something to pin on Kavanaugh and put enough pressure on his nomination that he drops out.

Do you think the next nominee will be better? Kavanaugh's probably the least bad choice that Trump is going to put forth.

Trump's doing a lot worse things than this. The Democrats should pick a better hill to make a stand on. This is when the Democrats should remind the voters that they're the reasonable party.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 07-10-2018 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:44 PM
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I don't think there's much to gain from blocking Kavanaugh's nomination unless you buy into the notion that Democrats must do this to avenge the GOP's decision to block Merrick Garland. They had their chance to do that already - the ship has sailed.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:00 PM
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The OP and his agree-ers in this thread are the primary reason that the Democratic Party is seen as a bunch of spineless idiots. Geez...RESIST EVERYTHING! Or lose in November. Find something to cling to as a principle, even if it's just "Trying to mitigate the Trumpian destruction of the USA". The time for civility and amity and collegiality are OVER. If we're the only side holding to those things, we're dead.

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  #11  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:08 PM
TonySinclair TonySinclair is offline
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They probably can't stop it, but if they go over his entire record with a fine tooth comb, there's the possibility they'll find something disqualifying, and more importantly, they'll show Democratic and progressive-leaning voters that they're willing to fight, even when the chances of success are low.

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I don't think there's much to gain from blocking Kavanaugh's nomination unless you buy into the notion that Democrats must do this to avenge the GOP's decision to block Merrick Garland. They had their chance to do that already - the ship has sailed.
THAT is where they should have shown they were willing to fight the good fight. It was absolutely outrageous to allow Turtle Boy to wipe his ass with the Constitution, especially when Republicans bray about wanting Justices who follow the Constitution. Dems should have been screaming to high heaven about following the Constitution, every day, until McConnell gave up. They should have opposed every bill that came up on the grounds that they had a higher priority issue, they should have talked about it every time they were on TV.

Instead, they made a couple of speeches and gave up. Instead, they're now gearing up for a completely futile battle, and they're on the wrong side. They are putting themselves in the same shitty position as McConnell, without being smart enough to have the votes to make it stick.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:10 PM
TonySinclair TonySinclair is offline
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The OP and his agree-ers in this thread are the primary reason that the Democratic Party is seen as a bunch of spineless idiots. Geez...RESIST EVERYTHING! Or lose in November. Find something to cling to as a principle, even if it's just "Trying to mitigate the Trumpian destruction of the USA". The time for civility and amity and collegiality are OVER. If we're the only side holding to those things, we're dead.
And you and your agree-ers are the primary reason the Democratic Party is watching its policies being dismantled, even though most of the country agrees with them. The time for standing on principle, only to lose to unprincipled assholes, is OVER. If we're the side holding the high moral ground, but no power, we're dead.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:11 PM
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I agree. Put up a "good fight." And mobilize like hell around the inevitable loss. We've lost this seat, use that stinging feeling to really rally the Dem voters to the voting booth. Dragging it out past the election will only anger the Pub voters and mobilize them.

But the "good fight" part is critically important. So far, Chuck S. seems to be leading the fight pretty well.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:11 PM
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We can't keep Trump from nominating an ultra-conservative who wants to overturn Roe v Wade. We can't stall a confirmation for two years.
.....We can't stop Trump from appointing a justice. We CAN stop Trump from otherwise ruining the country if we take over both houses of Congress this November. And the best way to do that is to get this confirmation over as far before the election as possible.[/QUOTE]


(post shortened)

NOOOOooooooooo....... Say it ain't so, Joe (or Tony). The Democrats best chance to be all they can be is to drag out every appointment, every confirmation, every election, every everything, until the DNC gets around to actually deciding who the next Democrat candidate for President will be. Then, it will be an entirely different ballgame.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:17 PM
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THAT is where they should have shown they were willing to fight the good fight. It was absolutely outrageous to allow Turtle Boy to wipe his ass with the Constitution, especially when Republicans bray about wanting Justices who follow the Constitution. Dems should have been screaming to high heaven about following the Constitution, every day, until McConnell gave up.
What precisely do you think that Mitch McConnell did to block Merrick Garland’s nomination hearing that was in violation of the Constitution? The procedural wrangling was at odds with long-standing norms of democratic practice, or course—even Robert Bork got his hearing despite severe reservations on both sides of the aisle—and was as self-servingly unethical as, well, everything McConnell does, but nothing was done that, strictly speaking, violated Constitutional requirements.

That the GOP has turned into the party of obstructionalist dickweeds should be a surprise to no one at this point, and there is little that can be done to force such people to just do their fucking jobs like actual adults instead of bratty toddlers other than to remove them from the stage. Which, of course, is the duty of the electorate. We almost never get better elected representatives than we hope for, and most are worse...which is why Democrats need to start demonstrating that they actually have a message and plan that they will strive to live up to instead of mealy-mouthing protests and then tucking tail to a actual challenge.

Stranger

Last edited by Stranger On A Train; 07-10-2018 at 08:20 PM.
  #16  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:31 PM
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What precisely do you think that Mitch McConnell did to block Merrick Garland’s nomination hearing that was in violation of the Constitution?
If I thought he had violated the letter of the law, I would have advocated an attack on that ground, rather than advocating a PR campaign against his hypocrisy.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:05 PM
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If I thought he had violated the letter of the law, I would have advocated an attack on that ground, rather than advocating a PR campaign against his hypocrisy.
Calling out Mitch McConnell for being a hypocrite is like accusing a pig of wallowing in mud. Except, of course, that the pig has a better grasp on hygiene than McConnell does about ethics.

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Old 07-10-2018, 09:10 PM
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From the "Kav's going to be a new Souter" and "Why couldn't we have gotten someone who is truly pro-life" comments I'm reading from some disgruntled conservatives on FB and elsewhere, it seems that liberals may be fearing Kavanaugh a bit too much.

Always read what the opponents are saying, that will say a lot.
On Monday (before the announcement) I decided to listen to Rush Limbaugh to see if he was going to speak out for or against a particular justice.

While a lot of what he said was just the Limbaugh brand of Democrat/liberal bashing, there was an interesting thread through his comments. Paraphrasing:

Don't let them try to divide and conquer. Don't let them tell you that this one won't be pro-life, or that one won't protect our borders. All four of the judges are the real deal and any of them will be a great addition to the Court. That's the important thing. Don't get distracted.

So what if Kavanaugh isn't perfect in the fever dream of a single-issue loudmouth on Facebook. He ain't Souter, either.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TonySinclair View Post
We can't keep Trump from nominating an ultra-conservative who wants to overturn Roe v Wade. We can't stall a confirmation for two years. So Trump is going to get someone he picks confirmed.

It could be a lot worse than Kavanaugh. At least he's on record as saying under current law, the President is not protected against subpoena or indictment (he famously said he thinks Congress should pass a law that does just that).

And the sooner, the better. Study after study shows that it's easier to energize angry people than satisfied people when it comes to voting. If the confirmation is still pending in November, more Republicans will go to the polls than if it's already done. And if it's already done, more Dems will be angry.

We can't stop Trump from appointing a justice. We CAN stop Trump from otherwise ruining the country if we take over both houses of Congress this November. And the best way to do that is to get this confirmation over as far before the election as possible.
I'm sorry; could you run it by me again how this would be Democratic politicians advocating for their constituents? And then could you explain why you think this is the best way for Democrats to advocate for their constituents? Because I'm not seeing it.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:41 PM
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Snark is easy, but tell me:

a) how you can postpone a confirmation until after a new President is in office
b) what good it would do if the new President is Pence
c) how postponing the confirmation until after the election would help Dems win seats in either house
Democrats should do the following:

1) Refuse to vote for the must-pass spending bill that must pass by September 30th.
2) Shutdown the government until further notice
3) Deny Republicans quorum.
4) Leave Congress entirely. Let the Republicans govern the government themselves. Alone.


Rest easy, though. Democrats are too spineless to do any of this.

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 07-10-2018 at 09:42 PM.
  #21  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:55 PM
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The Democrats should do whatever they think will help them the most in the next election. I'm not 100% sure what that is, but I'm leaning more towards "fight" than "give in". I don't think they have any chance at all of defeating the nomination, but if they just give in I can see folks taking their lead and just giving in when it comes to voting in Nov. You don't energize your electorate by rolling over and playing dead.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:03 PM
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We must rout the Clintonista mensheviks and seize control of the People's donor lists.

OK, about half-kidding and half venting old grievances against the goddam....enough. We have new fish to bone, bigger ones with teeth and venomous tentacles. But maybe this time let the people tell the leaders where they want to be led, and then let the leaders rush to get in front. They won't stop pestering us until they get a Leader ribbon.

Someday, we may yet have an election that does not have an inexhaustible vortex of stink. But this one, we gotta get through. Pro-choice, BLM, gay rights, etc. the varieties of cats in our herd, they hate us all, each and every.

Three million more votes isn't enough? Well, how about six million? Nine? A clear demonstration of numerical superiority focuses a politician's mind wonderfully.
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  #23  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:04 PM
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Democrats should do the following:

1) Refuse to vote for the must-pass spending bill that must pass by September 30th.
2) Shutdown the government until further notice
3) Deny Republicans quorum.
4) Leave Congress entirely. Let the Republicans govern the government themselves. Alone.


Rest easy, though. Democrats are too spineless to do any of this.
1) Sure.
2) There's no way they can do this
3) I read this isn't at all feasible under at least House/Senate rules. Quorum calls aren't easy to do and require some procedural move that can't be done continuously. I'll see if I can dig up the article.
4) isn't this the same as 3? Or do you mean all D's resign en masse? If the latter, it's pointless and self-destructive.

Ah, re 3, here you go: https://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-fac...uorum-breaking
Summary looks like 1) it's a pain in the ass and 2) McConnel could just change the quorum rules with a majority vote

Last edited by squeegee; 07-10-2018 at 10:09 PM.
  #24  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:15 PM
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Right now, even as we squeak, someone is trying to write a response for Kavanaugh when he's asked The Question. A response that totally satisfies the extreme "pro-life" people without alarming the moderates. A response fuzzy enough so that Collins and Whats-her-face can pretend to see warmth and light in it. A response that swears on a stack of pancakes that he is no threat to Roe, while at the same time assuring others that it is as dead as a doornail.

In the library of public statements crafted to forcefully and firmly say nothing at all....this will be a chestnut. A daisy, a Doozy, a ring-tailed vinegaroon.
  #25  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:40 PM
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Nonsense. It'll be the same answer we've seen a bazillion times. They'll feign unfamiliarity with the Roe, claim to judiciously consider stuff put before them in the future on the merits, and claim the God of Standing Precedent is one they think most wise and virtuous. Anyone could write that answer by viewing umpteen other confirmation hearings. This will be the same answer, and matter just as little to the process.

Last edited by squeegee; 07-10-2018 at 10:40 PM.
  #26  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:43 PM
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It'll be the same answer we've seen a bazillion times. They'll feign unfamiliarity with the Roe, claim to judiciously consider stuff put before them in the future on the merits, and claim the God of Standing Precedent is one they think most wise and virtuous. Anyone could write that answer by viewing umpteen other confirmation hearings. This will be the same answer, and matter just as little to the process.

I think he’s required to say something about reasonable restrictions.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:48 PM
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I'm sorry; could you run it by me again how this would be Democratic politicians advocating for their constituents? And then could you explain why you think this is the best way for Democrats to advocate for their constituents? Because I'm not seeing it.
[B]TonySinclair[/B ] is offering the elected Democrats a chance to save face. The elected Democrats can not stop Kavanaugh's confirmation. Elected Democrats can chose to fight the good fight (continued name-calling, whining, table-pounding), or the elected Democrats could concentrate on trying to actually win something they might be able to win.

Or maybe the yellow-dog constituents will approve of another noble failure by their elected Democrat Senators? Go team?????
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:50 PM
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Ah, the sweet smell of conservative Republicans graciously giving Democrats ratfuc...er, advice about how to do things right and profit off of it! I just love that stuff.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:59 PM
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Ah, the sweet smell of conservative Republicans graciously giving Democrats ratfuc...er, advice about how to do things right and profit off of it! I just love that stuff.
It doesn't matter if elected Democrats confirm Kavanaugh, or not. Their confirmation vote doesn't appear to be needed. Elections have consequences.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:59 PM
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It doesn't matter what Senate Democrats decide to do about Kavanaugh's nomination, because they won't be in a position to do it. We can't stop it, we can't slow it, we can't hasten it. All we can do is give speeches about how hypocritical the Republicans are, and we'd be doing that anyway.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:00 PM
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Elections have consequences.
Except when Democrats win them, of course. Then we have to wait until the next election.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:04 PM
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I think he’s required to say something about reasonable restrictions.
"Undue burden", Planned Parenthood v Casey, 1992

Like this hasn't gotten duly hum-hawed over in confirmation hearings before.
  #33  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:06 PM
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It doesn't matter what Senate Democrats decide to do about Kavanaugh's nomination, because they won't be in a position to do it. We can't stop it, we can't slow it, we can't hasten it. All we can do is give speeches about how hypocritical the Republicans are, and we'd be doing that anyway.
This. By all means #resist, but it won't matter to this fight. This fight is lost. Fight it anyway, but set sights and planning on the next engagement.

Last edited by squeegee; 07-10-2018 at 11:07 PM.
  #34  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:11 PM
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1) Sure.
2) There's no way they can do this
3) I read this isn't at all feasible under at least House/Senate rules. Quorum calls aren't easy to do and require some procedural move that can't be done continuously. I'll see if I can dig up the article.
4) isn't this the same as 3? Or do you mean all D's resign en masse? If the latter, it's pointless and self-destructive.

Ah, re 3, here you go: https://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-fac...uorum-breaking
Summary looks like 1) it's a pain in the ass and 2) McConnel could just change the quorum rules with a majority vote

Let the Republicans govern by their fucking selves.. Democrats are never going to win the public relations battle. Ever. Ignore the Republicans. Let them govern by themselves. Deny them any hint of bipartisanship. Isolate, ostracize, and relentlessly belittle the opposition. While Congress is in session, Democrats should dine at the Red Hen. Refuse to engage with Nazis. Period. This would fire up everyone except moderate Republicans who are three beers from throwing tomatoes at Ruby Bridges, anyway.

This is all academic and pointless to talk about. Democrats are spineless. If Democrats didn't shut down the government for DACA recipients or families separated at the border, these white folks sure as hell aren't gonna shut down the government for some women who think their bodies belong to them. Praise be, ladies; we've been sent good weather.

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 07-10-2018 at 11:11 PM.
  #35  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:20 PM
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Ah, the sweet smell of conservative Republicans graciously giving Democrats ratfuc...er, advice about how to do things right and profit off of it! I just love that stuff.
It’s what W meant when he talked about “compassionate conservatism.”
  #36  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:26 PM
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It doesn't matter what Senate Democrats decide to do about Kavanaugh's nomination, because they won't be in a position to do it. We can't stop it, we can't slow it, we can't hasten it. All we can do is give speeches about how hypocritical the Republicans are, and we'd be doing that anyway.
That's silly. The best thing they can do is start to drum up problems with Republicans, creating a bunch of in-fighting. If the Democrats remain strong, all you need is two Reps not to vote to keep it going for a while.

The Right is really into conspiracy theories right now. Take advantage of that. Push rumors that he's secretly an SJW liberal who is pro-choice, while pretending to be on the right. So many rumors, even if they are caught it won't really matter, since everything is a liberal plot. Start saying they're so happy he picked a decent guy instead of someone horrible, drying up the liberal tears demo. Find and bring up stuff that's bad about his past that will slow down the process. And, yes, there's threatening other legislation. That's a time honored tactic to use.

Yes, the fight is likely unwinnable, but it's silly to pretend they can't do anything. In fact, knowing he will get through anyways frees up some actions--it would be stupid to pretend there's someone worse if he had any chance of not getting through.

Just stir the pot. Do things that make it seem like you're fighting.
  #37  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:36 PM
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Just stir the pot. Do things that make it seem like you're fighting.
I agree and endorse this approach. Doing it effectively is difficult, perhaps impossible. Deciding to do it isn't.

Last edited by squeegee; 07-10-2018 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:42 PM
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Yes, the fight is likely unwinnable, but it's silly to pretend they can't do anything. In fact, knowing he will get through anyways frees up some actions--it would be stupid to pretend there's someone worse if he had any chance of not getting through.

Just stir the pot. Do things that make it seem like you're fighting.
(post shortened)

The elected Democrats aren't pretending they can't do anything. They actually can't do anything. But thanks for clearly stating the Democrat Party's game plan for the last 18 months. And their game plan for the next 30 months.
  #39  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:50 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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The OP and his agree-ers in this thread are the primary reason that the Democratic Party is seen as a bunch of spineless idiots. Geez...RESIST EVERYTHING! Or lose in November. Find something to cling to as a principle, even if it's just "Trying to mitigate the Trumpian destruction of the USA". The time for civility and amity and collegiality are OVER. If we're the only side holding to those things, we're dead.
No, I disagree. What the Democrats need to do is put out the message that they're the grown-ups and we need to have grown-ups running the country. Let the Republicans throw temper tantrums and shut the government down. The Democrats will be the party that shows up for work in the morning and does their job.

People need to stop getting so emotionally invested in elections. Treat it like it's a job interview. Who would you hire to work in your business? The quiet responsible guy who has a steady employment history? Or the guy you met in a bar at three in the morning? The bar guy is probably a lot more fun to hang out with but the quiet guy is the one you want working for you.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the voters are too stupid for democracy to work anymore. Hell, sixty-three million people voted for Donald Trump. But if that's the case, the Democrats trying to be as dysfunctional as the Republicans isn't the answer. If it turns out the voters can't elect a working government anymore we should just abandon democracy as a failed experiment.
  #40  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:59 PM
TonySinclair TonySinclair is offline
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That's silly. The best thing they can do is start to drum up problems with Republicans, creating a bunch of in-fighting. If the Democrats remain strong, all you need is two Reps not to vote to keep it going for a while.
I still haven't heard anybody say why that's the best thing. I still haven't heard anybody deny that if the fight is still going on in November, it will help energize the Republicans more than the Democrats.

There seems to be a significant percentage of Trump supporters who are so fucking stupid that absolutely nothing he does can make them see what a disaster he is, even when he costs them their jobs with his tariffs or whatever, but there is also a significant percentage who are pretty slow, but are finally coming to see that he's an idiot. The ONLY things they like about him is that he cuts taxes, and his Supreme Court picks. The taxes are done. If the Supreme Court picks are also done, they are much more likely to stay home in November.

Between the Russian bots, gerrymandering, and voter suppression techniques, Dems are swimming upstream in the elections to start with. We don't need to help turn out the Republican vote, too. Getting this shit over with quickly isn't giving up, it's optimizing our chances in November.

Last edited by TonySinclair; 07-11-2018 at 12:00 AM.
  #41  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:05 AM
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Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Originally Posted by doorhinge View Post
[B]TonySinclair[/B ] is offering the elected Democrats a chance to save face. The elected Democrats can not stop Kavanaugh's confirmation. Elected Democrats can chose to fight the good fight (continued name-calling, whining, table-pounding), or the elected Democrats could concentrate on trying to actually win something they might be able to win.

Or maybe the yellow-dog constituents will approve of another noble failure by their elected Democrat Senators? Go team?????
Save face? In who's eyes? The people who voted for them to be their advocates? How does that work?
  #42  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
Let the Republicans govern by their fucking selves.. Democrats are never going to win the public relations battle. Ever. Ignore the Republicans. Let them govern by themselves. Deny them any hint of bipartisanship. Isolate, ostracize, and relentlessly belittle the opposition. While Congress is in session, Democrats should dine at the Red Hen. Refuse to engage with Nazis. Period. This would fire up everyone except moderate Republicans who are three beers from throwing tomatoes at Ruby Bridges, anyway.
Aye. Fuck them. And be open about it too: "we're not going to help these fucking jerks fuck this shit up; they're fucking it up all on their own".
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Originally Posted by Huey Freeman View Post
This is all academic and pointless to talk about. Democrats are spineless. If Democrats didn't shut down the government for DACA recipients or families separated at the border, these white folks sure as hell aren't gonna shut down the government for some women who think their bodies belong to them. Praise be, ladies; we've been sent good weather.
Pretty much.
  #43  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
No, I disagree. What the Democrats need to do is put out the message that they're the grown-ups and we need to have grown-ups running the country. Let the Republicans throw temper tantrums and shut the government down. The Democrats will be the party that shows up for work in the morning and does their job.
Right; because that hasn't seen the Republicans gain control over more and more local, state and federal elected positions over the past 2 decades, has it?

Your preferred strategy is the strategy of losers who will have already ceded procedural control over to the opposition of the entire federal government for the last 2 years and possibly 2 more (we'll see in November, eh).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
People need to stop getting so emotionally invested in elections. Treat it like it's a job interview. Who would you hire to work in your business? The quiet responsible guy who has a steady employment history? Or the guy you met in a bar at three in the morning? The bar guy is probably a lot more fun to hang out with but the quiet guy is the one you want working for you.
Fuck that. It is worth being emotionally invested in elections: did you miss the recent immigration debacle? Do you fail to fully grasp how heinous that policy was? Right now, I'm thinking that you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the voters are too stupid for democracy to work anymore. Hell, sixty-three million people voted for Donald Trump. But if that's the case, the Democrats trying to be as dysfunctional as the Republicans isn't the answer. If it turns out the voters can't elect a working government anymore we should just abandon democracy as a failed experiment.
Strong is not the same as dysfunctional. Assertive is not the same as aggressive. And in this case, capitulation is not the same as "sane and reasonable opposition".

ETA: I wonder: did the OP post a similar thread in 2016, urging the GOP to confirm Merrick Garland asap?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-11-2018 at 12:16 AM.
  #44  
Old 07-11-2018, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by TonySinclair View Post
... At least he's on record as saying under current law, the President is not protected against subpoena or indictment (he famously said he thinks Congress should pass a law that does just that)....
@ TonySinclair — I agree with your point that making Republicans angry is not the path to victory.

But. Kavanaugh is on record thinking Congress should give the Prez immunity? And he's the man chosen by Prez Asshole himself? The Constitution is a supple document.

I'll bet that if the question of Trump's immunity comes before the Supreme Court, Kavanaugh will side with the evil-doers. Do we have a bet? One pennyweight of diazepam?
  #45  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:16 AM
TonySinclair TonySinclair is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
ETA: I wonder: did the OP post a similar thread in 2016, urging the GOP to confirm Merrick Garland asap?
What a stupid question. The world has changed a lot since then, so it's a completely different situation now. Even if it weren't, the fact that I did or didn't would have relevance only to my consistency, not to the merits of my argument.

Actually, I don't remember, but I probably posted something to the effect that McConnell was an asshole for not allowing Obama his pick. So in that sense, I am being consistent. Except I wouldn't call Schumer an asshole if he drags this out; I'd just think he was tragically wrong.

What I do remember posting in early 2016 was the hope that Trump would become the Republican nominee, because I thought he was a joke and would lose in a landslide.

I was half right.
  #46  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:20 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Right; because that hasn't seen the Republicans gain control over more and more local, state and federal elected positions over the past 2 decades, has it?

Your preferred strategy is the strategy of losers who will have already ceded procedural control over to the opposition of the entire federal government for the last 2 years and possibly 2 more (we'll see in November, eh).

Fuck that. It is worth being emotionally invested in elections: did you miss the recent immigration debacle? Do you fail to fully grasp how heinous that policy was? Right now, I'm thinking that you do.
So what are you suggesting? That the Democrats should beat the Republicans by becoming just like the Republicans? If they do, why would it matter which party we vote for?

Democrats need to get the message out that there is a difference between the two parties. That the Democrats are right and the Republicans are wrong. And then they need to tell people why being right matters.
  #47  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:22 AM
TonySinclair TonySinclair is offline
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I'll bet that if the question of Trump's immunity comes before the Supreme Court, Kavanaugh will side with the evil-doers. Do we have a bet?
No, but I would bet the same way for anyone Trump nominated, so that's irrelevant. What IS relevant is that no matter what the Court decides about indicting a sitting President, Trump can be indicted if he's impeached and convicted. And the only way that will happen is if Dems win a lot of seats in November. That is my goal, and I think it's a much better goal than showing people that Dems will fight for a lost cause.
  #48  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:22 AM
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Betcha if you went to a pro-life message board today, right now....you already know what you'll see. Us monkeys is predictable. LifeLover1092 demands that any candidate for SCOTUS must clearly and forcefully articulate a determination to pound a flaming stake in the dark heart of Roe v. Wade. Anything less is not good enough to support.

Babysaver 322 points out that Kavanaugh was vetted by a dedicated pro-lifer, no need to rock the boat, get the other side all upset....KillRoeWasHere calls BS on that, been working on it for years, voting, donating, supporting and today is PAYDAY, dammit! Who cares what those losers think, ram it down their throats, they probably like that sort of thing anyway! DiaperDan chimes in, maybe we could be nicer, draw some flies...

KillRoeWasHere pops up with the news that Pence was interviewed, saying that neither he nor Trump knew if Kavanaugh even had a position, they didn't ask, no "litmus test" because that's not good....proof positive that the Republicans were going to betray their trust again! They must all write and email everybody and demand....you know the drill.

(The Pence thing is for real, by the way. CNN, I think.)
  #49  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:45 AM
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The Democrats probably can't stop the nomination but putting up a good fight will excite their base which is important for the upcoming elections. Furthermore attacking the pro-business parts of his record is a good way of promoting their own economic message and highlighting how Trump's populism is largely a sham ; this could help them regain some voters they have lost recently as well as attract uncommitted voters. They should also highlight that Roe V Wade, which is pretty popular, is in danger.

Democrats have to reconcile themselves to a conservative SCOTUS majority for probably the next decade but they can turn lemons into lemonade. Much of the conservative judicial agenda is unpopular and a useful foil for Democrats to help them win elections which is what ultimately matters. Furthermore, the more energetically Democrats attack that agenda, the the tougher it will be for the justices to enact it.
  #50  
Old 07-11-2018, 03:29 AM
Smapti Smapti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorhinge View Post
[B]TonySinclair[/B ] is offering the elected Democrats a chance to save face. The elected Democrats can not stop Kavanaugh's confirmation. Elected Democrats can chose to fight the good fight (continued name-calling, whining, table-pounding), or the elected Democrats could concentrate on trying to actually win something they might be able to win.
How many times did Republicans vote to abolish Obamacare when it had no chance of passing the Senate? Like 50?

And where did that get them? Majority control of the entire federal government.
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