Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:56 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Racialism: Everyone's Favorite Politics

This thread is mostly about people active in discussing politics. The everyday person is not as obsessed with racial classification as the rabid activists. Let’s be honest, I’m talking about the lower classes, who regard people on an individual basis rather than as members of a collective. When they talk in racial collective language it’s mostly harmless and they’re usually just joking around.


The politics of racialism are beloved across the political spectrum. We have the usual suspects, including your KKK, your neo-Nazis, your White Nationalists. They are still having a good time with this. You have your Trumpists, who prefer immigrants from Europe, whom they would classify as “White”.

You also have your moderates who support race-based policies like affirmative action. Your right of center moderates don’t talk race too much. As soon as you tick past that plumb-line into the Obamas, Bidens, and Clinton’s, we start hearing it. Racialism is wholly inescapable in leftist rhetoric. Racial diversity is paramount. They group everyone into races and advocate for policy based on race. Every event that happens must be viewed through the racialist lens.

I have a simple question for the many racialists among us. Who is white? Who is black?

We have some historical examples. We had the “one drop rule”. Is this still in effect? We have the paper bag test. We have heritage-based claims of race, but these seem rather fluid and confusing. One person in a pit thread suggested he can tell if someone is white by last name. When we were on the playground as young kids, a person’s voice was a factor. Do economic factors play a role? I am in need of guidance on this, buddies.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 07-11-2018 at 09:58 AM.
  #2  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:05 AM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 35,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
You have your Trumpists, who prefer immigrants from Europe, whom they would classify as “White”.
versus
Quote:
Racialism is wholly inescapable in leftist rhetoric. Racial diversity is paramount. They group everyone into races and advocate for policy based on race. Every event that happens must be viewed through the racialist lens.
Uhhuh.
  #3  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:20 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NY but not NYC
Posts: 30,188
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Let’s be honest, I’m talking about the lower classes, who regard people on an individual basis rather than as members of a collective. When they talk in racial collective language it’s mostly harmless and they’re usually just joking around.
Mind blown. What discussion is possible after this? This is the equivalent of a math thread that starts with 1 = 2.

Start with this instead. Everybody wants equal treatment. If they aren't getting equal treatment, they will complain. The people who benefit from unequal treatment will dig in their heels.

Now, what is the obvious next step? (Hint, it's not to blame the people who aren't getting equal treatment and complaining.)
  #4  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:39 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 77,667
Racism is real. It's not something people made up so they can have a cause or an excuse. If you can't accept this basic fact - which is a fact - then you're living in a delusion and there's no point going any further with you.

If you're still here, let's talk about racism. Not all people experience racism the same. Racism is an act carried out by individuals but individual acts of racism group together and form patterns. That's why there can be white racists who act against black people and black racists who act against white people but white racism against black people is collectively worse than black racism against white people. That doesn't excuse the actions of individual racists, black or white, but it explains why some racism is worse than others.

Racism can have a lot of different levels. Sometimes racism is denying somebody a job or a place to live. Sometimes racism is killing somebody. Sometimes racism is telling a joke. And sometimes racism is doing nothing while somebody else is doing something racist. People support racism by not opposing it. Some forms of racism are worse than others but all racism is bad. There is no acceptable minimum amount of racism above zero.

And let's talk about racial realism; the idea that the reason black people in America are causing their own problems. Black people get sent to prison in disproportionate numbers? That's because black people commit more crimes. Black people get shot by the police in disproportionate numbers? That's because black people resist arrest more. Black people are poorer and have worse jobs on average? That's because black people are less likely to finish school. Racial realists want to grab the first answer and then stop thinking about the problem.

Because what they should be doing is asking the next question: Why do black people commit more crimes? Why do black people resist arrest more? Why are black people less likely to finish school? And then when they answer those questions, go on to the next level. Until they arrive at the fundamental question: Are black people inherently different than white people? Or are black people and white people fundamentally the same and black people are just responding to different experiences than white people?
  #5  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:53 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 77,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
I have a simple question for the many racialists among us. Who is white? Who is black?
White people are people who get treated like white people. Black people are people who get treated like black people.

If you think that white people and black people get treated the same, you're living in that delusion I mentioned in my previous post.
  #6  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:02 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
versusUhhuh.
I can’t point out different aspects of racialism in politics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Mind blown. What discussion is possible after this? This is the equivalent of a math thread that starts with 1 = 2.

Start with this instead. Everybody wants equal treatment. If they aren't getting equal treatment, they will complain. The people who benefit from unequal treatment will dig in their heels.

Now, what is the obvious next step? (Hint, it's not to blame the people who aren't getting equal treatment and complaining.)
I’m a bit bewildered with this comment. In my experience, the lower classes don’t care about collectives as much as the middle and upper classes care. Most activists are middle class. I’m not blaming anyone, I’m simply pointing out where racialism exists. I’m confused about how the racial classification is done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Racism is real. It's not something people made up so they can have a cause or an excuse. If you can't accept this basic fact - which is a fact - then you're living in a delusion and there's no point going any further with you.
I know racism exists. I just claimed racism is present throughout American society in case you missed it. I listed a few racist and racialist groups. My question is a simple one. Since the politically active want race-based policies, I think it is a fair question to ask.

Quote:
If you're still here, let's talk about racism. Not all people experience racism the same. Racism is an act carried out by individuals but individual acts of racism group together and form patterns. That's why there can be white racists who act against black people and black racists who act against white people but white racism against black people is collectively worse than black racism against white people. That doesn't excuse the actions of individual racists, black or white, but it explains why some racism is worse than others.

Racism can have a lot of different levels. Sometimes racism is denying somebody a job or a place to live. Sometimes racism is killing somebody. Sometimes racism is telling a joke. And sometimes racism is doing nothing while somebody else is doing something racist. People support racism by not opposing it. Some forms of racism are worse than others but all racism is bad. There is no acceptable minimum amount of racism above zero.

And let's talk about racial realism; the idea that the reason black people in America are causing their own problems. Black people get sent to prison in disproportionate numbers? That's because black people commit more crimes. Black people get shot by the police in disproportionate numbers? That's because black people resist arrest more. Black people are poorer and have worse jobs on average? That's because black people are less likely to finish school. Racial realists want to grab the first answer and then stop thinking about the problem.

Because what they should be doing is asking the next question: Why do black people commit more crimes? Why do black people resist arrest more? Why are black people less likely to finish school? And then when they answer those questions, go on to the next level. Until they arrive at the fundamental question: Are black people inherently different than white people? Or are black people and white people fundamentally the same and black people are just responding to different experiences than white people?
Before our conversation about “black” people and “white” people, should we not define the groups?

We can have a conversation all day about how to kipel regnews and flarse meps.
  #7  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:03 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 29,865
The OP is an excellent example of poisoning the well. No, liberals aren't as he describes them -- like most folks, he doesn't understand the mindset of those others that he holds in contempt.

Considering the well-poisoning, this thread probably belongs in the Pit, IMO.
  #8  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:07 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
White people are people who get treated like white people. Black people are people who get treated like black people.

If you think that white people and black people get treated the same, you're living in that delusion I mentioned in my previous post.
How are white people treated?

How are black people treated?

Who is doing the treating? There are many people treating a given individual.

What if someone is treated badly, does that make him “black”?

What if someone is treated well, does that make her “white”?
  #9  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:09 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
The OP is an excellent example of poisoning the well. No, liberals aren't as he describes them -- like most folks, he doesn't understand the mindset of those others that he holds in contempt.

Considering the well-poisoning, this thread probably belongs in the Pit, IMO.
Do you deny that liberals want race-based policies and consider racial diversity to be a goal of policy? If so, maybe I am misunderstanding the position and you can clarify the liberal position on race.

Perhaps you are familiar with the work of Jonathan Haidt who found that those on the right could articulate a more accurate representation of left positions than vice versa.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 07-11-2018 at 11:10 AM.
  #10  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:14 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Can we have a definition of “white person” that does not include the term “white person”? I remember this being a no-no from elementary school.
  #11  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:18 AM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT JohnT is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 20,161
Will, if you think the "lower classes" don't think about race issues, you literally have never honestly communicated with people of the lower classes.

(Waits for "b-b-but I have many poor friends!" rebuttal...)
  #12  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:22 AM
jimmydingo jimmydingo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Torannah CAN
Posts: 9
Man, in a couple thousand years, when interbreeding makes us all an unappealing grey, will we finally agree the only "race" is Homo Sapien?
  #13  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:22 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Will, if you think the "lower classes" don't think about race issues, you literally have never honestly communicated with people of the lower classes.

(Waits for "b-b-but I have many poor friends!" rebuttal...)
No, I don’t think that at all. I think they are more apt to view someone as an individual than as a member of a collective, and they are less likely to seek political remedies for supposed racial problems.
  #14  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:23 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 38,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Will, if you think the "lower classes" don't think about race issues, you literally have never honestly communicated with people of the lower classes.
For real. The most explicit racism I ever heard was when I was working minimum-wage jobs. It's not to say that middle-class people are enlightened or anything, but his ideas about poor people are fantastical.
  #15  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:26 AM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT JohnT is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 20,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
No, I don’t think that at all. I think they are more apt to view someone as an individual than as a member of a collective, and they are less likely to seek political remedies for supposed racial problems.
You "think". But you don't "know".

Well, I guess this is the forum for witnessing, but whatever the hell you witnessed, it is coming across as an opinion. And a poorly-formed one at that.

Last edited by JohnT; 07-11-2018 at 11:27 AM.
  #16  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:27 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
For real. The most explicit racism I ever heard was when I was working minimum-wage jobs. It's not to say that middle-class people are enlightened or anything, but his ideas about poor people are fantastical.
I would argue that that racism is less harmful than political racism, but as I said, this thread is not about that(if I can help it).
  #17  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:28 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 23,073
What's a racialist? How is it different from a racist?
  #18  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:29 AM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT JohnT is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 20,161
Well, since this is the first time you used the phrase "political racism", perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to what you mean?
  #19  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:29 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
You "think". But you don't "know".

Well, I guess this is the forum for witnessing, but whatever the hell you witnessed, it is coming across as an opinion. And a poorly-formed one at that.
It is an interesting topic to discuss elsewhere.
  #20  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:31 AM
Velocity Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 12,060
Race is one of those "You know it when you see it" things. If someone is obviously white, they're white. If they're obviously black, they're black. If they're mixed and you can't readily see the difference, then they can call themselves whichever they want.

People (not the OP, but others) often like to deliberately cite examples of mixed people who are right "in between" to say that "there is no such thing as race." That's simply the grain-of-sand-continuum fallacy.
  #21  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:31 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Well, since this is the first time you used the phrase "political racism", perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to what you mean?
Race-based political policy and advocacy.
  #22  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:37 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 38,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Race-based political policy and advocacy.
Taxonomical definitions are notoriously difficult to structure precisely and accurately, and that's when you're dealing with physical objects (what's a chair?) When it comes to sociological constructs, they're damned near impossible to structure precisely and accurately. Are you unaware of this difficulty, or are you trying to score cheap points by acting like race is nonexistent due to the difficulty of defining it precisely and accurately?
  #23  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:41 AM
Quartz Quartz is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Home of the haggis
Posts: 28,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
I have a simple question for the many racialists among us. Who is white? Who is black?
The rest of your OP was rather confusing but I think you're asking the almost the right question here. But instead of 'white' and 'black' you need to use 'us' and 'not us'. And you need to ask why you are asking the question in the first place. Skin colour is irrelevant, as those in the former Yugoslavia would tell you, as would Rwandans, as would the Northern Irish, as would so many others.

And the answer, I think, is that America has itself to blame: you Americans insist on people being XYZ-Americans rather than plain Americans. By doing so you are perpetuating the divisions. Instead of learning from the past you are perpetuating the mistakes of the past by implementing them in a new way.
  #24  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:43 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 29,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Do you deny that liberals want race-based policies and consider racial diversity to be a goal of policy? If so, maybe I am misunderstanding the position and you can clarify the liberal position on race.
I want just policies and practices by society. If a group (racial or otherwise) isn't being treated justly, on average, by institutions in society, then policies should be put into place to fix that.

Quote:
Perhaps you are familiar with the work of Jonathan Haidt who found that those on the right could articulate a more accurate representation of left positions than vice versa.
Whether this is true or not (and I've seen conflicting studies), it's irrelevant to your consistent wrongness when trying to psychoanalyze the motivations of the liberals you hold in so much contempt. You are almost always wrong when you try to dig into the motivations of liberals/progressives/Democrats, and you should stop trying to do so. Rather, when you want to know what they/we think, just ask.
  #25  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:44 AM
survinga survinga is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: In the Deep South
Posts: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
This thread is mostly about people active in discussing politics. The everyday person is not as obsessed with racial classification as the rabid activists. Let’s be honest, I’m talking about the lower classes, who regard people on an individual basis rather than as members of a collective. When they talk in racial collective language it’s mostly harmless and they’re usually just joking around.


The politics of racialism are beloved across the political spectrum. We have the usual suspects, including your KKK, your neo-Nazis, your White Nationalists. They are still having a good time with this. You have your Trumpists, who prefer immigrants from Europe, whom they would classify as “White”.

You also have your moderates who support race-based policies like affirmative action. Your right of center moderates don’t talk race too much. As soon as you tick past that plumb-line into the Obamas, Bidens, and Clinton’s, we start hearing it. Racialism is wholly inescapable in leftist rhetoric. Racial diversity is paramount. They group everyone into races and advocate for policy based on race. Every event that happens must be viewed through the racialist lens.

I have a simple question for the many racialists among us. Who is white? Who is black?

We have some historical examples. We had the “one drop rule”. Is this still in effect? We have the paper bag test. We have heritage-based claims of race, but these seem rather fluid and confusing. One person in a pit thread suggested he can tell if someone is white by last name. When we were on the playground as young kids, a person’s voice was a factor. Do economic factors play a role? I am in need of guidance on this, buddies.
Race gets defined differently in different societies. Or different time periods. I'm reminded of the Rwandan massacres in the early 90's. It was two groups of people who were of different ethnicity within their culture, but who would both be seen as "black" outside of their culture. I'm also thinking back to the early 20th century, when different groups of "white" people hated either other (Irish, Italians, for example).

Last edited by survinga; 07-11-2018 at 11:44 AM.
  #26  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:47 AM
John DiFool's Avatar
John DiFool John DiFool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 18,108
"Racialism"...is there a "Alt-Right Dictionary" somewhere that these kinds of terms leach out from (like slugs wriggling out of piles of garbage)? "Democrat Party", "Social Justice Warrior", etc., where the actual meaning (vs. surface) is a hidden in-joke? Please fight my ignorance.
  #27  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:48 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Taxonomical definitions are notoriously difficult to structure precisely and accurately, and that's when you're dealing with physical objects (what's a chair?) When it comes to sociological constructs, they're damned near impossible to structure precisely and accurately. Are you unaware of this difficulty, or are you trying to score cheap points by acting like race is nonexistent due to the difficulty of defining it precisely and accurately?
Neither. I don’t support the taxonomy. Others find it useful, apparently. If I found a taxonomy to be useful, I would be able to give an explanation for it. If i wanted to structure government policy around it, I could define it.
  #28  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:50 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
The rest of your OP was rather confusing but I think you're asking the almost the right question here. But instead of 'white' and 'black' you need to use 'us' and 'not us'. And you need to ask why you are asking the question in the first place. Skin colour is irrelevant, as those in the former Yugoslavia would tell you, as would Rwandans, as would the Northern Irish, as would so many others.

And the answer, I think, is that America has itself to blame: you Americans insist on people being XYZ-Americans rather than plain Americans. By doing so you are perpetuating the divisions. Instead of learning from the past you are perpetuating the mistakes of the past by implementing them in a new way.
I agree, but many Americans find race to be deeply important and race-based policies perpetuate this.
  #29  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:53 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 29,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
And the answer, I think, is that America has itself to blame: you Americans insist on people being XYZ-Americans rather than plain Americans. By doing so you are perpetuating the divisions. Instead of learning from the past you are perpetuating the mistakes of the past by implementing them in a new way.
This is very obviously false. The greatest atrocities of American history -- slavery (a century of mass labor-theft, brutality, torture, rape, and murder); treatment of the Native Americans (a century of mass land-theft, brutality, torture, rape, and murder); and their successors, segregation, Jim Crow, red-lining, and similar policies/practices, came long before the concept of "XYZ-American" came about. Recognizing the differences in how so many Americans are treated by government, society, and institutions is a step in how we solve these mistreatments, not a step towards making them worse.
  #30  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:55 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I want just policies and practices by society. If a group (racial or otherwise) isn't being treated justly, on average, by institutions in society, then policies should be put into place to fix that.



Whether this is true or not (and I've seen conflicting studies), it's irrelevant to your consistent wrongness when trying to psychoanalyze the motivations of the liberals you hold in so much contempt. You are almost always wrong when you try to dig into the motivations of liberals/progressives/Democrats, and you should stop trying to do so. Rather, when you want to know what they/we think, just ask.
Since you find race-based policies to be an effective bulwark against injustice, can you define what the races are for us?
  #31  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:57 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by John DiFool View Post
"Racialism"...is there a "Alt-Right Dictionary" somewhere that these kinds of terms leach out from (like slugs wriggling out of piles of garbage)? "Democrat Party", "Social Justice Warrior", etc., where the actual meaning (vs. surface) is a hidden in-joke? Please fight my ignorance.
No, there’s an actual dictionary with the term “racialism” in it though. Crack one open sometime.
  #32  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:03 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 56,668
Another "Hating the haters is the real hate!" argument?
  #33  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:04 PM
Ruken Ruken is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 6,297
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Who is white?
LMGTFY? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people

Or maybe this is of those "is milk in cereal a broth, beverage, or sauce?" questions.

SPOILER:
Pop tarts are ravioli
  #34  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:06 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NY but not NYC
Posts: 30,188
Axioms.

1) Unequal treatment by skin color exists.

2) The people who are being treated unequally know who they are and what group they are part of.

3) People who complain about unequal treatment are not in the same category as people who pretend there is no unequal treatment.

4) People who fight for equal treatment are not in the same category as bigots.

See how easy it is to live in the real world?
  #35  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:08 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 29,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Since you find race-based policies to be an effective bulwark against injustice
I didn't say this. Politics, especially politics and racism, are complicated enough that they usually can't be summed up like this.

Quote:
, can you define what the races are for us?
Here's a decent start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_a..._United_States

It's an extremely complicated mesh of history, culture, power, economics, geopolitics, and much more. Lots of great books (and lots of terrible ones) have been written on the subject. I don't claim to be an expert, I just try to understand the best that I can.
  #36  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:12 PM
Llama Llogophile Llama Llogophile is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: 50% chord point
Posts: 3,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Since you find race-based policies to be an effective bulwark against injustice, can you define what the races are for us?
I don’t think I can precisely define “asshole” in the pejorative context, but I definitely know when when I see one.
  #37  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:15 PM
Quartz Quartz is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Home of the haggis
Posts: 28,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
This is very obviously false. The greatest atrocities of American history -- slavery (a century of mass labor-theft, brutality, torture, rape, and murder); treatment of the Native Americans (a century of mass land-theft, brutality, torture, rape, and murder); and their successors, segregation, Jim Crow, red-lining, and similar policies/practices, came long before the concept of "XYZ-American" came about.
You're missing it. No one can dispute the past, but by using XYZ-American you are perpetuating them. You are perpetuating the divisions. Move on. You are one United States of America so be one group of Americans. Make Americans one group of Us, not one group of Us and a group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us etc.
  #38  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:21 PM
Tamerlane Tamerlane is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 13,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Let’s be honest, I’m talking about the lower classes, who regard people on an individual basis rather than as members of a collective. When they talk in racial collective language it’s mostly harmless and they’re usually just joking around.
IME, and in history's, you are utterly wrong. The lower classes is precisely where the most virulent racism( and sectarianism )tends to concentrate, simply because they are the least economically secure and have the lowest social standing. Economically 'the other' is seen as a greater threat and socially having someone to look down on is psychologically comforting for many.

Quote:
You also have your moderates who support race-based policies like affirmative action. Your right of center moderates don’t talk race too much. As soon as you tick past that plumb-line into the Obamas, Bidens, and Clinton’s, we start hearing it.
Another problem we're going to have communicating is agreeing to a definition of moderate. Thinking of Obama, the Clintons or Biden as "leftists" just causes me to shake my head. They're bog standard MOR Democrats, with the most glaring exception to that being on the other end of the spectrum with Hillary Clinton's rather hawkish foreign policy.

When we come from such disparate world views that definitions can't be shared, it becomes really hard to discuss issues.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 07-11-2018 at 12:24 PM.
  #39  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:25 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 29,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
You're missing it. No one can dispute the past, but by using XYZ-American you are perpetuating them. You are perpetuating the divisions. Move on. You are one United States of America so be one group of Americans. Make Americans one group of Us, not one group of Us and a group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us etc.
No, this is incorrect. We can look at history and see this clearly. What perpetuated and exacerbated divisions was unjust and unequal treatment, by society, government, and institutions. What mitigated divisions was ending that unjust and unequal treatment. At no point in American history can we point to a great division (by race or otherwise) and say that the labels used were the cause of that division. It was always differing treatment, by government, society, and/or institutions, of various groups.
  #40  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:27 PM
Bone's Avatar
Bone Bone is online now
Extrajudicial
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 9,268
Moderating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama Llogophile View Post
I don’t think I can precisely define “asshole” in the pejorative context, but I definitely know when when I see one.
This is both a failure of subtlety and a failure to mind which forum you are posting in. This isn't the Pit. Knock it off.

[/moderating]

Last edited by Bone; 07-11-2018 at 12:27 PM.
  #41  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:31 PM
Quartz Quartz is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Home of the haggis
Posts: 28,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
No, this is incorrect. We can look at history and see this clearly. What perpetuated and exacerbated divisions was unjust and unequal treatment, by society, government, and institutions.
And that unjust and unequal treatment was done by putting people into separate groups. So make America one group. One united group. Not a group of African-American, another group of German-Americans, another group of Italian-Americans, another group of Arab-Americans, another group of Asian-Americans, another group of .... Be one united group of Americans.
  #42  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:33 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 38,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Neither. I don’t support the taxonomy. Others find it useful, apparently. If I found a taxonomy to be useful, I would be able to give an explanation for it. If i wanted to structure government policy around it, I could define it.
The taxonomy isn't useful, but knowing it's a sociological reality is useful. Ignoring sociological realities that have tremendous, sometimes fatal, effects on human lives is incredibly foolish.

That doesn't mean the taxonomy is good. Nor does it mean that it's magically easy to define, unlike every other sociological taxonomy.
  #43  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:34 PM
Filbert Filbert is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,532
How are you defining 'lower classes' anyway?
  #44  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:36 PM
Llama Llogophile Llama Llogophile is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: 50% chord point
Posts: 3,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
This is both a failure of subtlety and a failure to mind which forum you are posting in. This isn't the Pit. Knock it off.

[/moderating]
Noted, but worth it.
  #45  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:36 PM
Chingon Chingon is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: the hypersphere
Posts: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
And that unjust and unequal treatment was done by putting people into separate groups. So make America one group. One united group. Not a group of African-American, another group of German-Americans, another group of Italian-Americans, another group of Arab-Americans, another group of Asian-Americans, another group of .... Be one united group of Americans.
I tell you what, when people stop asking me where I'm "really" from I will stop including *-American to remind my fellow citizens that I am actually an American too.
__________________
Children need encouragement. If a kid gets an answer right, tell him it was a lucky guess. That way he develops a good, lucky feeling.
  #46  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:37 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NY but not NYC
Posts: 30,188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
And that unjust and unequal treatment was done by putting people into separate groups. So make America one group. One united group. Not a group of African-American, another group of German-Americans, another group of Italian-Americans, another group of Arab-Americans, another group of Asian-Americans, another group of .... Be one united group of Americans.
This is an absolutely wonderful idea. I'm amazed that nobody in history has ever thought of this before. But now that you've expressed it, surely everybody will immediately change their behavior.
  #47  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:44 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 29,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
And that unjust and unequal treatment was done by putting people into separate groups.
Not exactly. History is much more complicated.

Quote:
So make America one group. One united group. Not a group of African-American, another group of German-Americans, another group of Italian-Americans, another group of Arab-Americans, another group of Asian-Americans, another group of .... Be one united group of Americans.
We're working on it (some of us, anyway -- others are trying to turn back the clock, or worse). That requires recognizing the many ways so many Americans are mistreated, which is often dictated by these groupings, so that these practices can be dismantled. What you advocate would make this impossible, and therefore make the dream of a single population of Americans, all treated equally by society, government, and institutions, impossible.
  #48  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:45 PM
akwally1 akwally1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
You are perpetuating the divisions. Move on. You are one United States of America so be one group of Americans.
So this sounds to me (and my apologies if this isn't your intent, it's just a similar argument to one I've heard from some very racist relatives) like you're saying that if the people of color and other minorities stopped thinking of themselves as separate from the "rest of America" (read white), then we'd all be Americans and nobody would be treated badly?

If that is the argument, then shouldn't you be making that argument to the people that are perpetuating the racism by treating POCs differently? If they (read white) would just stop seeing the black guy or mexican woman (or woman wearing a Puerto Rico shirt) as an "other", and treating them poorly because of it, then they'd realize we're all people living in the same country?
__________________
I used to think that crack whores were really good whores. You know, really good at what they did, kinda like a crack shot.
- overlyverbose

Last edited by akwally1; 07-11-2018 at 12:46 PM.
  #49  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:57 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 77,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Before our conversation about “black” people and “white” people, should we not define the groups?
I did give you a definition. But, as usual, you seem to be ignoring everything anyone is saying besides yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
I know racism exists. I just claimed racism is present throughout American society in case you missed it. I listed a few racist and racialist groups. My question is a simple one. Since the politically active want race-based policies, I think it is a fair question to ask.
You seem to barely acknowledge it exists. And to the extent you do acknowledge its existence, you are disturbingly neutral in how you address it.

According to your OP, different groups have different views on racism. Groups like the KKK, the neo-Nazis, and the White Nationalists are in favor of racism and support it. Groups like the Obamas, the Bidens, the Clintons, and other people you describe as leftists condemn racism and actively oppose it. And as far as can be told from your post, both positions are equally valid. And you seem to think open-minded people should reject both of these positions as being too extreme and adopt some middle position of neutrality towards racism.

As I noted above, you apparently ignore what other people are saying. But I've already stated my opinion on that view: People support racism by not opposing it.
  #50  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:58 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,464
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
I agree, but many Americans find race to be deeply important and race-based policies perpetuate this.
Hopefully, between the other thread in which you repeatedly posed tangential questions about race, and this thread that you created specifically to argue about race, we'll figure out what the hell is up with these Americans who find race to be deeply important.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:46 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017